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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  April 29, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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so if they're going to talk about a racial issue, he's the one. give it to mikey and put him out front. he's willing to do that. he's always been willing to do that and that's how and why he's the one who gave the rebuttal. >> thank you so much, dr. greer. joy will be back tomorrow night with a special guest, former secretary of state hillary clinton. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. trickle-down economics has never worked and it's crime to grow the economy from the bottom and the middle out. >> 100 days into office, how joe biden and his predecessor just ended the reagan era, leaving republicans with nothing. >> least going to control how much meat you can eat. can you imagine that? what we're learning about what's at the heart of the rudy giuliani investigation. >> he just loves this country.
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and they raid his apartment. it's like, so unfair and such a double -- it's like a double standard. >> tonight, a look back at just how far rudy has fallen. >> nothing disturbs me more than to see all of the revelations of crime committed by the wealthiest members of our society. minnesota attorney general keith ellison on police reform as george floyd's family comes to washington. "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. something i noticed that across the ideological spectrum in a surprising way there's agreement about president joe biden's first joint address to congress last night. lots of folks on the left and right that both agree that the scope and ambition of the domestic agenda biden laid out was truly staggering. and all that would come on the heels of the accomplishments of his first 100 days, which are
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just impressive. i mean, there's no other way to see it. huge covid relief package, the massively successful vaccination effort, one of the best in the world after the u.s. has been international lagered. more than 1 million jobs gained in the first 100 days, more than any president in history. last night biden proposed a wide range of progressive programs, from ra jobs plan and a families plan to a $15 minimum wage, and a change to labor law that would be the most significant pro-worker legislation since the new deal. he proposed extensions and expansions of the u.s. social safety net that would bring this country finally into line with developed democracies. i mean, we are international laggards in a bunch of ways. our level of unionization is below our peers. 54% in belgium. 66% in sweden. we got the highest level of income inequality of all the g-7 countries, more than italy,
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japan, germany, and france. we don't even have paid family leave, okay? we're one of just a handful, handful of merely 200 countries in the u.n. without a paid parental leave law. we are the laggard. and for years people on the left, progressives have been pointing out the deficiencies and saskatchewan and claw our way to bring us up to the standards of developed, rich liberal democracies and by and large it hasn't worked. there shall a bunch of reasons why, but our big one, i would even contend a central one, is the last 40 years of american politics have been predominated dominated by the ideology and legacy of president ronald reagan and the succinct defining quip. >> i always felt the nine most terrifying words in the english language are "i'm from the government and i'm here to help." >> reagan was elected at this very interesting moment, high
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levels of inflation and stagnating economy and intelligent school of free market economists why it's happening, the anger of an imperiled ownership class after the welfare state was expanded and there was backlash against civil rights and social changes. and basically reagan brought all that together, creating modern conservativetism as we know it. and the central pillar of that was skepticism of the state and state interventions in the domestic sphere, accepting, of course, national security and the military, which grew a ton under his watch. and it was amazingly effective politically and ideological, even carried over into democratic politics. >> we know big government does not have all the answers. we know there's not a program for every problem. [ applause ] we know and we have worked to give the american people a smaller, less bureaucratic government in washington. and we have to give the american
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people one that lives within its means. [ applause ] the era of big government is over. [ cheers and applause ] >> big applause, big government is over. that was president clinton ten years after the reagan clip. he was not alone. the next democratic president, barack obama, he in many ways certainly turned the corner of reaganism, huge investments like the recovery act and affordable care act and the cataclysm of american capitalism collapsing in on itself. but obama spent a lot of times shadow boxing with reagan's ghost. >> from some on the right, i expect we'll hear a different argument. if we just make fewer investments in our people, extend tax cuts, including those for the wealthier americans,
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eliminate more regulations, maintain the status quo on health care will make our problems go away. >> joe biden's nearly 50 years into his political career. he's never been particularly on the leading edge of the left of his party. he's been a centrist through and through, a deal-maker. he's the guy who walked down from the podium last night, started shaking hands and asked a lawmaker, how is your mom? give her my love. he also laid out the most ambitious democratic agenda for robust government safety net in generations probably since lyndon johnson proposed medicare. there was no defensiveness. he was on the offensive. >> my fellow americans, trickle down, trickle-down economics has never worked and it's time to grow the economy from the bottom and the middle out. [ applause ]
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>> big part of biden's shift has to do with what happened in american life particularly since the financial crash which discredited a kind of market fetishism. we have the staggering gilded age levels of inequality and a bunch of ideological battles that have been fought and won by people on the left. but i got to say this. donald trump also deserves some credit because donald trump could not possibly care less about any of the punitive principles of reaganism or paul ryanism or romneyism, about limited government and freedom and all that stuff. donald trump is just a corrupt would-be autocrat who really likes the state and state power when it helps him and doesn't when it doesn't. he told people he was going to give them universal health care and passed an enormous covid relief package and wanted to shove as many checks into people's hands as possible because he knew it was good politics. utterly absence from all of his rhetoric was the echos of talk about freedom and individual choice and small government, blah blah blah blah blah blah. after all that, republicans were
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along for the ride. they're still going through the motions on that rhetoric, but no one really cares. i don't think anyone's listening. i mean, during biden's address last night, the twitter account for republicans in the house judiciary committee tweeted that infamous reagan line, the nine most terrifying words in the english language. it got all of 391 retweets. we saw the same thing with the republican rebuttal. it was pretty thin on conservative policy ideas. he checked the boxes about socialism, but very quickly moved to the stuff that really animates the republican party, the conservative base, cancel culture and the big lie about voter fraud, and how progressives are the real racist and how schools teach white self-loathing. you can see it every night on fox news and the right-wing press and what primary challengers are talking about, the audit happening in arizona. but they have basically declared total intellectual bankruptcy on
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the big questions at the center of how we should structure our economy and who it should work for. that doesn't mean they're going to stop fighting it. the donor class is still very powerful. the gilded-age billionaires don't want to have their capital gains taxed. the one big thing they passed under trump, the coalition of convenience before the pandemic was an enormous tax cut for the rich and corporations. it's just they don't have any good arguments or messaging left or seems to me like much heart in it. so while the political battle is not over, it does really feel like the conservatives, republicans are in a movement that is utterly ideological exhausted. michelle goldberg is an opinion columnist for "the new york times" who called joe biden the first post-reagan presidency and joins me now. i didn't realize i ripped off the subject from you when i saw that was in your guest sheet, oh, right, i guess this is a
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michelle goldberg take that i appropriated. but it was really on display last night, i thought. >> yeah. to be fair, i ripped off that thesis from a political scientist named steven skronic who has this idea about different regimes, that there are certain presidents that inaugurate it and then there's someone who brings them to a catastrophic close. in his schema, donald trump is akin to jimmy carter to marked the end of the new-deal era. you can see that from the beginning of the biden administration, right, that as you said, reaganism has exhausted itself. the right's fundamental economic commitments are now all over the place. even the fact that the debate has now shifted from should we have an interventionist family policy to what should that policy look like, right? so that makes it much harder for
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the right to just scream socialism when biden proposes this transformative package that would suddenly make parenthood in this country less isolating and brutal. >> such a great point. so you got this thing today playing out in the right where this jd vance, the hillbilly elegy guy, saying universal day care is class war on the working class. but the better thing to do is what josh hawley and mitt romney were doing, which is give parents money. it's like, okay, that's the debate now. should we subsidize universal day care, which has been the constant refrain for so long. >> it was get government off hi back and also in the case of day care, women should be home taking cabin of their kids and that ship has sailed. the religious fundamentalism
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might be still opponent in the united states, but there's no family-values party anymore, certainly not the party of donald trump and matt gaetz. so i think that like you said, they're going through the motions, but their heart isn't in it. and that quote, that famous reagan quote was so striking because i thought about that quote a lot of times during the pandemic, about how ecstatic i would be when i was trying to home school my kids at home or when i was worrying when i was going to get a vaccine. if someone rang my doorbell and said i'm from the government and here to help. >> literally holding a syringe. you can so much of politics is what terrain things are being contested on. what are the fights people want to the. from arguing with conservatives, these are fights they wanted to have. they wanted to have fights about why the capital gains tax has to
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be loaner than ordinary income because if not, there won't be enough capital and we won't get capital investment and it's not fights they have they want to have anymore. increasingly this stat always jumps out to me. reagan won 80 of 100 counties largest share of residents with college degrees. trump won 16. there is a class realignment happening among white voters particularly a little bit in this coalition that is also changing, like, how much they can sell it to their own people. >> the republican party, i think, is still very confused about this because you see them making a lot of anti-corporate noises, particularly marco rubio. they're not willing to do muchb. they're still not willing, for example, to raise corporate taxes to fund infrastructure. again, they're such ideological
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incoherence, it's hard for them to get it together to make a serious countercase. >> michelle goldberg who wrote that great column that i unintentionally ripped off, thank you for coming on the show. thanks a lot. i want to bring in brian deese, the director of the national economic council, president biden's top economic adviser. he formally served in the obama administration. brian, good to have you on. let's start with the scope of what's laid out. you got the big covid relief baggage package, the vaccination effort under way and these two big packages, the families plan and the jobs plan. together it's about $4 trillion combined cost. there's going to be tax hikes to sort of offset that and pay for that. were there discussions inside the white house saying, like, this is too much, we should pare back? >> it's good to be here. we're here at 100 days, it's a
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big day. it's also a day where we learned that the economy in the first quarter grew by 6.4%. historic growth in the economy, historic growth in jobs. you can connect that directly to that early action around delivering the american rescue plan, covid relief, an effective vaccination program. and the jobs plan, the family plan, to your point, tried to build on that with a view that public investment in areas that we know will have high value for future productivity, better jobs, is actually the economic recipe we need to succeed. when we put these packages together, to answer your question, the focus was really on a bottom-up, where do we see the high-value public investment will compliment strong, durable, sustained growth, job creation in the u.s. in ways we haven't seen for some time. can we put this together in a way that, you know, that we can responsibly pay for by getting
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out some of the tax fairness you were just referencing? so for us and the president, this was really about what are the needs of the country right now, particularly as we face growing global competitive threats and let's put it together. let's put it out there and the president wanted to say this has what the country needs. >> the pay-fors, a washington term -- >> where the money comes from. >> right. the covid relief package was seen as emergency spending, which i think made a lot of sense. here there's a lot of -- you have to top bracketed being raised. what i found fascinating is the popularity of this goes up when you tell people how you're going to pay for it. morning consult said 60% of
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voters say they're more likely to support the $3 trillion infrastructure plan if it's fwintd a tax increase on those making over $400,000. do you feel like you have -- this is a tough sell? or you feel like you have the wind at your backs on it? >> we feel like this makes a lot of sense. and i think that also resonates with a lot of people across the country. first of all, we're talking about paying for these things over a longer period of time. pay-for is a washington term. there's also been a washington convention to say you got to pay for everything over a ten-year window. that's not how we're approaching this. we think we have to make these investments, think about them as capital investments, invest now and offset the costs over the longer term. that's the economics of it. and then in terms of the practicalities of it, people have seen for several years,we have a fundamental challenge where the largest companies and
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very wealthy individuals keep doing better and better. if we're going to invest in the country, we're going to make a big capital investment in ourself. we're all going to have to do our part. so on the economics, we think this actually is helpful. if you look at the corporate reform we're proposing, we think that actually would make the country more competitive. it would be better for domestic investment if we fix some of the problems in the tax cut that president trump and the republican congress passed. and it would also generate revenue we can invest in things like fixing our physical infrastructure, fixing our care infrastructure and the like. >> brian deese , who in the white house advising on these big and ambitious projects, thank you so much for your time. >> thanks for having me. now, a little honest here. one of the realities of the tv news business, we deliver a tease to keep the viewer engaged to so you come back, keep watching me, keep giving me your eyeballs.
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then we have the rudy giuliani story. tonight i'm not going to do teasing about the latest reports about the second u.s. attorney. >> here's the interesting thing. it may start with just the ukraine. but that's not where it's going to stop. because rudy is actually a stupid guy. he's only right now imagined what does heavy to do in order to stay out of prison. >> don don don, the rudy story is next. it comes from within. it drives you. and it guides you. to shine your brightest. ♪ as you charge ahead. illuminating the way forward. a light maker. recognizing that the impact you make comes from the energy you create. introducing the all-electric lyriq. lighting the way. ♪
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the second time in just over three years the fbi has raided the home and office of one of donald trump's personal lawyers. in 2018, of course, it was michael cohen, the guy who helped trump get elected the first time by paying hush money in violation of the law. he eventually pleaded guilty, was sentenced to three years in federal prison. now it's rudy giuliani. he's cohn's successor. he's being investigated by the same u.s. attorneys office he used to lead in the southern district of new york. prosecutors are reportedly interested in whether he broke lobbying laws by working as an unregistered foreign agent while serving the president as his personal lawyer. this evening "the new york times" reported that investigators are exploring whether rudy giuliani pushed for the removal of the u.s. ambassador to ukraine back in 2019, yovanovitch, on behalf of trump, or whether he was serving in the interest of ukrainian
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officials, a violation of federal law. when she testified in 2019, she told lawmakers she had minimal contact with mr. giuliani during her tenure as ambassador. i do not know mr. giuliani's motives for attacking me, but individuals may well have have believed their personal and financial ambitions were stymies by our anti-corruption policy in ukraine. the fbi seized cell phones and computers from giuliani rudy giuliani's home and office from the early-morning raid yesterday. giuliani's lawyer called it legal thuggery and giuliani himself in his radio show this afternoon called the investigators crooks. >> >> i've been fighting all my life -- i've been fighting crooks all my life. i'm fighting crooks again. the only tragedy of it is they have titles from the government. but they're a disgrace. they are a complete disgrace to the office that i distinguished. >> you distinguished.
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trump's former personal lawyer, who was also raided and has experience with this thing thinks giuliani should be concerned. >> rudy giuliani knows he's in big trouble, as your previous guest just advised. he ran the southern district of new york. he knows exactly the games that they play because he's the one that created that playbook. and they take no prisoners. they did exactly the same thing to me. >> for a more nuanced look at the trouble he might be facing, i'm joined by the national political reporter for politico who reported today that a ukrainian ex-lawmaker says he spoke to the fbi about giuliani as well as joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama. betsy, between your regulator and the "times" reporting and the substance of the warrant, we have a much clearer view now of what the theory of the government's case, to the extent there will be one, is, which is
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basically he was being paid to do this on behalf of some shade ukrainian interests and was kind of running that parallel to the whatever trump's interests are. is that your understanding? >> that's certainly my sense of it. we've reached the point of the doj investigation into rudy giuliani are where the feds have stopped being subtle, and the fact that now they've executed multiple search warrants and have issued at least one grand jury subpoena suggests things are moving pretty quickly. one important detail from the reporting that's come out over the last 24 hours is that a name that's mentioned in one of these subpoenas is reportedly john solomon, who was formerly a columnist for "the hill." that's important in part because one of the things that you can do that is illegal is if a foreign government official pays you not just to lobby u.s. government officials, but also to secretly do public relations on their behalf without disclosing it.
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if you're secretly working for a foreign government official to try to shape u.s. media initiatives, that can get you in legal trouble with the justice department. so the fact that the doj is looking into potential conversations between giuliani and this former columnist suggests that that could be a piece of the case that they may be building against him. and of course we know doj is getting help. a former ukrainian lawmaker who i was in touch with told me that last summer the fbi reached out to him and he spoke with him about his knowledge of giuliani. he appeared in a documentary with giuliani so he has knowledge of how interacted with the cannes. >> >> he definitely didn't declare or register as an agent of a foreign government as is required.
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as someone who was a u.s. attorney and ran a u.s. attorneys office, from that perspective and experience, what do you see when you see these big, dramatic moves from the southern district? >> it's an interesting point in that case when you make a decision to stop being covert and become overt. >> right. >> this case was never really covert. of course it was clear that there was an investigation going on to some extent, but now everything is over, and they're into the phone. what you can find in a cell phone after a search like this can be of immense value. maybe ultimately there's not a case, maybe you get passwords that let you take a look at accounts that you're just learning now exist. maybe you find photographs, visual evidence of crimes that are committed. so this is a breakaway point in that case where you often find out if you're going to indict or not. >> we should note, it can be
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tough to enforce. but we're dealing here -- if there was ever reason to have this law and enforce it, this is the president's lawyer possibly secretly working on behalf of foreign interests to attack an american official in the form of yovanovitch. this is as series as that kind of violation could be. >> yeah. not good. one of the problems that the justice department has had historically with enforcing this particular law that we're talking about is that defendants have been able to argue that they didn't understand it and, therefore, they shouldn't be punished for failing to abide by it. that argument has been successful in the past. in this case, though, rudy giuliani, very senior u.s. law enforcement official and a guy who spent a huge a. his time post-public service talking about legal problems other
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people could find themselves in for being engaged in corrupt efforts to influence lawmakers. one of his huge hobby horses was the allegation that joe biden corruptly moved to fire a ukrainian prosecutor. giuliani is very much steeped in these questions about law, so it'll be tough for him to argue, oh, whoops, sorry, i didn't know it was a thing. >> giuliani just gave an interview in which he said he try to foist the hunter biden hard drives on the fbi, which they were not interested. can you imagine what the discussion is like, joyce, when you're about to serve a warrant on the president's lawyer and a former u.s. attorney in the office that you work in? >> you know what's coming in this sort of a situation. so you know you've got to do everything right. and the fourth amendment juris
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prudence is because he will complicated. so you know there was a careful legal review to make sure that if agents got to a place on the computer where they needed an additional warrant, it was clear they would go out and get those additional warrants from a judge beside the went back in. i suspect that this was a meticulous operation designed to avoid these sorts of primary legal problems, but always knowing that down the road there would be challenges from giuliani about attorney/client privilege and other legal issues. they're well prepared. >> thank you both. coming up, to properly understand the dissent of rudy giuliani, you need to know how he came to power in new york city. there's no one better to talk about that than my next guest. do not go anywhere. she'll want a plan to reach them. so she'll get some help from fidelity, and she'll feel so good about her plan, she can focus on living it. that's the planning effect, from fidelity.
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rudy giuliani is a true international fame in the aftermath of 9/11. before he became, quote, unquote, america's mayor,
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ridiculous term, and then a failed presidential candidate and a buck raker going around the world and getting paid for god knows what, he was rudy giuliani, the crime fighter, tough on crime, law and order guy from brooklyn who made his big splash as a swagger, press-hunger, imperious u.s. attorney for the southern district and used that office to launch his successful campaign for mayor with cops rallying to his side, the man who was going to bring order to a lawless city, crackdown on the thugs and criminals and guys that tried to clean your car windows, never mind how many people ended up harassed or shot by police or how much the city's jails swelled. through it all, giuliani sold this worldview, always shot through with racist ideas of crime and violence but it came down to good guys and bad guys and he was the good guys and he was one protecting you from them. >> the u.s. attorney said he'd like to throw back at them and
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anybody else involved in an insider trading scheme. >> maybe we can't catch all of them, but we sure as heck can deliver a message, which is if you do get caught, you're going to lose your liberty, you're going to go to prison. >> i do think the work in my office has changed the definition of the problem of crime in america. >> nothing disturbs me more than to see all of the revelations of crime committed by some of the most powerful and some of the wealthiest members of our society. >> former prosecutor rudy giuliani won his second race against david dinkins for mayor of new york city. >> the area of crime, the city of new york really has had a great deal of success. the citywide arrests have gone up to record highs, which is one of the ways in which we've also brought down crime. we arrest a lot of people, particularly drug dealers. >> you got to pay attention to somebody urinating on the street. >> i'd like to take this moment to officially announce that it is once again all right to
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hitchhike. [ laughter ] >> what kind of mayor has he been? >> good mayor, awful man. that simple. >> this guy whose entire life and career about going after crooks, right? this guy finds himself on the wrong side of search warrants, staring down the barrel of an indictment by his former office. it's an incredible plot twist. as a columnist michael daley chronicled decades of nefarious incidents in the checkered politicize career of rudy giuliani, giuliani even once referred to daley as public enemy number one. michael daley, now a special correspondent for the daily beast joins me now. michael, i thought of you yesterday when i saw this news. what is michael daley thinking of this having reported on this guy, watched his rise, and particularly the kind of sanctimony he brought to it about him being the good guy. what goes through your mind as you watch the news about his
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apartment being raided by the fbi? >> from personal experience, he doesn't take well to that. who do i see, but rudy and his entourage coming out of city hall. he just announced a crackdown on speeding, so i got nothing else to do, i clocked him going over the speed limit passing a school bus in the battery tunnel. when i wrote that, they said i was a liar, they had countersurveillance, i couldn't have been there. i had an easy pass, and you had an easy pass. he had press conferences for three days. he said at one point the car wouldn't go that saw. general motors said it did go that saw. at one point i'm told rudy said if this can happen, this is no
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longer america. so that was a little thing about speeding. you can imagine what's going to happen here. you know, michael cohen says that rudy is dumb. he's not at all dumb. he's just nuts. he just is. i mean, this is a guy -- he used to scream about parol, and he was conceived when his father was on parole for armed robbery and he wouldn't exist if it weren't for parole. i can remember one day they said the mayor is going to have -- this is when he's married and living with his wife. he's going to meet his girlfriend for dinner. call the papers. he's walking back to gracie mansion. i had nothing else to do, so i walked behind him. there's a little protestant church on a side street on the way to gracie mansion. there was a couple sitting on a
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bench. they were necking. he stopped and turned to his aide and said that's disgusting. it goes on and on and on. >> i mean -- >> i'd bet money to this day rudy does not know why crime went down in new york. he thinks it has to do with broken windows, and squeegeeing windows. crime went down because jack maple instituted a system whereby crime, black-on-black crime was treated as seriously as black-on-white crime. if you got robbed in brooklyn, it got treated as seriously as of you were robbed on central park south. that's why crime went down. rudy to this day doesn't know that. >> you said this classic rudy sanctimony. on his radio show today, he said
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i've done your job longer and better than you have. you people have convictions like i had, a person like me in the attorney's office since i left. no wonder you're jealous! but that's -- that ego, people say what happened to rudy, that's been the guy for 40 years. >> i mean, september 10th, 2001, i was by city hall. i watched rudy come down the steps with his entourage. not a single person said hello. no one noticed him. the tourist didn't take his picture. everybody was tired of him. all his antics, all the stuff with his girlfriends and lies and craziness. it was done. it was over. next morning was a very bad morning, as everybody knows. two days later, i'm just down there and i get a call from the city saying we want you to write about rudy giuliani. i said why? and they said he's like the face of 9/11. i said, what are you talking about? i haven't seen him. they said, he was the face of
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it. everybody decided this is mr. new york. i mean, the reason he was walking around down there, that famous footage of him walking with his people with the mask, the reason he was there was that he built the world's only air yell bunkerer on the 17th floor with diesel fuel tanks above it and it was burning. he couldn't go to his command center. he had to go to ladder 5 up in greenwich village and break in to make his command postwhile they were all downtown getting killed. >> michael daley, who did an incredible job chronicling mayor giuliani and 9/11 in the days afterwards, pleasure to talk to you. thank you. >> i talk too much when i'm on air. >> you did great. a big day for police reform on capitol hill. the floyd family in d.c. to meet with lawmakers on both sides of the aisle. i'll ask minnesota attorney general keith ellison what changes he's looking for in the wake of the chauvin prosecution
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this one is a fun story. i first learned to love performing and the theater as a high school student in new york city back in the '90s when rudy giuliani was mayor, in fact. i went to hunter college high school where i was cast in a student-run production of brick prison play house a reference to the fact that our school was a converted armory, which barely has windows. early on, brick prison's faculty adviser was this incredible man named dr. herbert. it was on that day this video was taken that dr. herbert proposed that an enterprising young student, the one holding the camera, should write a musical. in fact, you can hear the exact moment captured in the video. pay attention to the end of this next clip. oh, and the kid in the blue shirt, that would be me.
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>> you were in '89. i was in '91. >> fine, 90. >> okay, lin, you're on. >> what? >> you're on. >> okay, lin, you're on. the guy behind the camera was a skinny eighth grader named lin-manuel miranda. a few years later, he would write an original that i directed and the rest is history. lin will be featured in "inspiring america" on nbc where we highlight extraordinary people making a positive impact in their communities. when lester holt sat down to interview lin, he talked about the influence that dr. herbert and brick prison had on the course of his life. >> well, i think i always knew i wanted a life in the arts and making stuff, and i didn't know what form that would take. i always credit my eighth grade english teacher who kind of caught me writing poems in the
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back and said, you know, when you apply that stuff to our class, you're actually pretty good. i think he was the first person outside of my very supportive family to say you're a writer, and he nudged me in the direction of playwrighting because we had a where we prod student-written plays. that's what nudged me in that direction. i don't know what i would be writing if it weren't for dr. herbert saying go hang out with those kids. >> those kids. that was me in that room. those were the kids that we were hanging out with. you'll hear from other incredible individuals on inspiring america, the 2021 inspiration list, which airs this saturday, may 1st, 8:00 p.m. eastern, and on msnbc sunday at 10:00 p.m. eastern. don't miss it. that works to turn down acid production, blocking heartburn at the source. with just one pill a day, you get 24-hour heartburn protection. take the prilosec otc two-week challenge.
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let's get it... together. so we can be together. let's get to immunity. now's your moment to get vaccinated. no matter the verdict in the derek chauvin murder trial, the former police officer was leaving the courtroom in handcuffs according to a new report. the minneapolis star tribune report the department of justice spent months gathering evidence to indict chauvin on federal police brutality charges in a separate case from 2017. feared the publicity could incluns the state's trial, they came up with a contingency splan. if he was found not guilty on all counts, they would arrest him at the courthouse, but he was convicted on three murder and manslaughter charges. a big part of that had to do with the case presented and the team put together by the state's
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attorney general, keith ellison, who was pointed as the federal prosecutor. now, they're moving forward with their case to indict chauvin and the three other officers involved in george floyd's murder on charges of civil rights violations. joining me now is keith ellison, the attorney general of minnesota. that was a surprising thing to read. i'm curious your reaction as a person that supervised the team that did this prosecution. did you know anything about the feds looking into this? >> well, i didn't know anything about the feds actually, i know they have jurisdiction. i know that the office was interested and concerned, but i didn't know any of the details. i'm glad i didn't because i really had enough to do to focus on the state prosecution. but i am glad that they -- that the federal government, either through the doj practice and even through criminal enforcement of civil rights violations is interested. it makes a big difference. >> how much -- how important was
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it that this prosecution happened under your supervision, the state attorney general, and not out of the hennepin county prosecutor's office where it normally would happen and where we have seen local prosecutors have a very tight relationship, obviously, with the police and their jurisdiction. >> well, i just want to say as a preliminary matter, hennepin county attorney's office was very helpful to us. they were our partners. and i want to make that very clear. but i will say that gave us an opportunity to look at the charges anew, and we decided to go from third degree murder up to second degree murder, which we charged. and we charged the other three. so when the case went from the county attorney's to my office, the charges increased, and the number of defendants increased. so we have only dealt with one defendant. the other ones are presumed innocent until proven guilty,
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but that matter is set on for august, and we're working diligently to put on an excellent prosecution. >> when you say presumed innocent until proven guilty, that of course is a core and important prosecution principle. it's also something you spent decades, you know, years as a defense attorney, and i wonder how that informed how you thought about this case. >> let me tell you, as a defense attorney, and now as a prosecutor, and as a legislator, i have learned that it's not the position or the role that you play in the system. it's whether you bring integrity and honesty to it, as a defense attorney, i knew a lot of people who just mailed it in for their clients. and i know a lot of people who started out talking about what they were going to plea their clients to. i never thought that was the right thing to do. now that i'm in another role, we're prosecuting vigorously, and we look forward to and hope that there's a vigorous defense so that we know that the person is treated with fairness,
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dignity, and respect, even if they're found guilty, as derek chauvin was. we didn't want to be unfair to derek chauvin. we wanted to be scrupulously fair to him so he was convicted by a jury of his peers, which we did do, and we plan on moving forward in that same direction with the remainder of this case. but yeah, i do care about defendants. i think as a prosecutor, you know, you're not a minister of punishment, you're a minister of justice, and that's a very important thing. and our system would be better served if we all proceeded that way. >> yeah, i thought that there was a really notable moment from brandon mitchell, one of the jurors in the case, talking about just sort of seeing the humanity in the entire situation, saying when mr. mitchell saw video of chauvin take nn to custody, he felt compassion for him. he's a human, too. i almost broke down from that. we decided his life. it's tough to deal with. even though it's a right
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decision, it's still tough. what do you think of that? >> i'm so proud of this jury, man. we were so fortunate to get 12 people who really cared, who listened carefully, not every bit of this trial was riveting testimony. some of it was just regular procedure type stuff, but it didn't matter. they were focused every inch. they were taking notes, they were watching, they were paying attention. some of the medical testimony was kind of complicated. but they still paid close attention. so yeah, i am not surprised that they had -- that they had some sympathy or that particular jury had some sympathy for derek chauvin. but this case, justice can't be about sympathy. it's got to be about what do the facts show, you know, and it's had judge's job to decide what the sentence is going to be and not the jurors. they just decided the facts, and the facts were clear beyond a reasonable doubt, and they came
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back quick. >> keith ellison, so fascinating to get your take on the trial. i want to get you back to talk broader about police reform soon. >> take care, chris. >> that is "all in" on this thursday night. the rachel maddow show starts right now. >> good evening. thank you, my friend. much appreciated. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. very happy to have you here, this post state of the union thursday night. so if you were not lucky enough to live through it at the time, you may not know this. i did live through it at the time so i know. here's how it looked. you would click on the start button, lower left-hand corner of your screen, but instead of starting some normal program, you would start microsoft bob. microsoft bob would then appear as a giant face on your screen, and in order to get started doing your work or your homework or whatever, you would have to knock on the door of microsoft bob's house, click on the knocker, a dog would then demand to know who you are. he would woof at you, eventually let you in, and then that is where you're supposed to get your

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