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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  April 27, 2021 12:00am-1:00am PDT

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last thing before we go tonight, is that guy rick santorum, since losing his pennsylvania seat to bob casey years ago, centaur must found one of cable stardom as the republican guy on numerous panel discussions, where he has mastered the art of standing candid will slowly migrating his position from republican, two full on trump or. he ran for president for about ten minutes in 2016, got out after the iowa caucus. he has said his share of remarkable things over the years, comparing homosexuality to bc all it he comes to mind, as does his use of the were nazis to describe the pro choice crowd. he wasn't particularly well known for his views on native americans, until today, when this surfaced. a portion of his remarks to the young americas foundation. it has to do with the first europeans arriving here. >> we birth a nation, from nothing. there was nothing here. i mean yes,
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native americans, but candidly, there isn't much native american culture and american culture. it was born of the people who came here. >> you know, there are any number of good books on the trail of tears, the indian removal act on the society and governments of trade that the tribes of north america had established before being wiped out, and then having their survivor segregated to this day. oh, that is the history, but there is also another version. it is not unlike cable in that way. there is the history channel, and there is drunk history. so, there is something for everybody. that is our broadcast for this monday night as we start a new day together. thanks for being here with us. on behalf of all my colleagues at the networks of nbc news, goodnight.
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when president joe biden does announce the nation, he will be the first president of the united states to have two woman sitting beside him. vice president of the united states, kamala harris, and the speaker of the house of representatives, nancy pelosi. when the president just as the nation on wednesday, at the end of the 99th day of his presidency, he will have the approval of a solid majority of americans, something that the previous president never had. joe biden is running 13 points ahead of the previous president in the latest nbc poll, that shows joe biden's approval rating 13 points higher than the previous president's approval rating at this exact point, four years ago. trouble for republicans is that the most popular person in the party is the person who lost the presidential debate to joe biden. that means republicans now
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think they cannot win. republicans believe they cannot win presidential elections if those elections are held fairly. instead of trying to counter joe biden's policies with their own policies, republicans are now lying about biden policies, for example republicans are now claiming, that joe biden wants to ban the consumption of meat. which is a complete and total lie. republicans find it easier to tell that lie, instead of arguing against policies like say, the increase in the corporate tax rate that joe biden will described wednesday night, as part of his in just four structure package, which now has the support of 68% of americans. cnbc announces the stock report is going the best it has in the presidency, going back to at least the 1950's. and the dwight eisenhower
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administration. but, you don't hear joe biden mentioning that stock market stuff the way the previous president would, because the previous president was actually our only president, who firmly believe that the stock market was, an accurate measure of good government. republicans no longer believe that they can win elections by turning out voters. so now, they are attempting to turn away voters, texas is one of the winner states in the census data released, that shows texas will gain two more members in the house representatives to separate the 20,000 people second only to california's 39 million people. through publican governor in texas will do anything they can to gerrymander congressional district so that the two new congressional seats will go to republicans. gerrymandering is no longer a enough for republicans to win
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elections. so, the texas legislature has introduced legislations that according to the new york times, quote, would make texas one of the hardest states in the country to cast a ballot in. republicans want to ban 24-hour voting in texas, which is how many working people voted in the last election in texas. the state's biggest county use 24-hour voting for a single day, just a single day, on the thursday before the election. the new york times describes some of the middle of the night voters as, fast food workers, nurses, construction, workers night owls, and other and late shift workers. texas republicans do not want those people to vote again, because they might vote for democrats. some of the restrictions on texas voting put posed by the legislator were put only in counties with populations of more than 1 million. that means of course, the big cities of texas. the places where democrats
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live. texas-based companies, such as american airlines and dental technology say they are opposed to a voting, drive-through voting, which was used by 127,000 voters in the state's biggest county. texas is the biggest state, where the legislator is trying to restrict the right to vote. there is no more forceful opponent, of restricting the right to vote in texas, then our first guest tonight, leading off our discussion tonight, bill o'rourke, former democratic congressman representing el paso texas. he's the founder of powered by people, an organization helping elect democrats in texas. bill abroad, thank you for joining us tonight. this night became even more important than we thought, won texas today, picked up what's will be two additional congressional seats, starting in the next election. what do you think that will
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mean for texas, and what will the republican texas legislator try to do to assure that those are republican seats? >> it makes the fight to secure brought voting rights, the ability for any gel and bold texan to cast their ballot that much more important. lawrence, i'm convinced, with 40 electoral votes, texas now clearly becomes the biggest swing state in the country, and can very well decide the next presidential election, or perhaps the next ten presidential elections. this population quote that is produced this into new congressional seats, has been brought about by the young, by people of color, and by those who have chosen to come to this state, it is the future, knocking on the door of this country, and republicans in texas are trying to bar the door shuts before these foods can get in and cast a ballot, nearly 7 million texans in 2020, did not vote, because this is the most of order suppressed
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state in the union, 750 polling votes, and the racial jury commander at the top of the show that you talked about, the most voter laws in the country, and these proposals make it even harder. >> let's listen to one former jury general eric holder said about these two new congressional seats, today. >> it's going to get additional seeds, because of a caused in the increase in the hispanic community, african american community, and yet i suspect they will draw the lines there. john them in such a way to minimize the acquisition by those groups. so, that those additional seats in texas they are gonna get isis specgx will be an attempt to gerrymander them which means will probably end up in court. >> bill o'rourke, the legislator is completely run by republicans, and republican governor. so, the only thing they will
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have to be concerned about, as they try to draw these lines for congressional districts, is how is eric holder just put, it how they might end up in court? >> that's right. and really, our best hope right now, is in united states senate, which was put before the people act. i know there has been a lot of talk about senator manchin's position in the filibuster and the need to reform that in order to be able to put past democracy bills like this one, but really, the future of the fate and fortune of this country, rests on states like texas. not for the democratic party. but literally, for democracy. one person, one vote. if we believe that's important, we need federal protection, federal safeguards, to ensure that we can do that. it's going to be left to texas, to texas motives, to do what they can. they have done some pretty impressive things in the past, despite these racially gerrymandered districts that you have in texas from the 2010, and 2011 district-ing.
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you have colin allred, and lizzy panel fletcher both win in an upset, a long shot victories in 2018. we can do it again in 2022, and come forward. if we really believe in democracy, we really believe everyone should have a seat at the table in every vote should be counted, then we've got to stop these voter suppression efforts in texas, and we've got to pass voter protection reform in washington d.c.. it's as simple as that. the good news is, these voter suppression bills in texas have not yet passed, they have not yet been signed into law as you mention. delaware, can airlines, faith groups, civic organizations, and everyday voters are stepping up, standing, out speaking up to make sure we stop this while we still have time. >> all right, texas republicans and the legislator listening to those corporate entities in texas that are opposing this? it seems as though they've just decided that their politics is
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taking them in a different direction, and they will no longer pay attention to these corporate interests. >> it's interesting. they're losing to them, but i don't know if they are getting them right message. the chairman of the state house committee, overseas elections, a guy named bercow pain just out of houston and he was by the way after the november election in pennsylvania, trying to overturn presidential election, he is now in charge of the election law that we mentioned, in texas. he just proposed legislation that would punish these companies that speak out, trying to not help democrats or republicans, but help texans ensure that they can vote. so, that is the way they are responding to this, i think that's a good sign. it shows they are concerned, there, anxious over the defense, they know they are on the wrong side of history, they are on the wrong side, now we just have to win. >> i mean, one of your roles here, from my distance, is cheerleader. you are in charge of keeping
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spirits up, and keeping the smile going as the struggle seems to be getting more and more difficult. >> well, there is a lot to be optimistic about. when we went to the state capital to testify bent espy seven espy six, there was hundreds of other texas who had driven from all over the state, and as you know it is 254 counties, two time zones, there's a lot of miles, a lot hours to get to the capital in the midst of the pandemic, which we are not through yet. yet, there were people willing to come out and stand up for democracy, they waited, 14, 15, 16 hours, to get their two minutes to testify. there are all these great groups like the texas civil rights project move, the texas democrat a project doing a lot of great work. so, i see a response that meets the moment. and that i think is going to be a more of a managed to these voters oppressors in texas. if we don't have hope, hope we
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don't move, if we don't take action, we definitely are going to lose. the best antidote to despair, is action. i want to just make sure we continue to do that here in texas. >> there does seem to be a reverse effect phenomenon in this voter suppression field, because we see these attempts of voter suppression, that seems to provoke a certain kind of voter turnout on its own. that just may be a mirage, but as we watch it, and they did everything they could, they were trying in georgia, and yet georgia got this remarkable turn out in the face of these attempts to suppress it. >> it's interesting, we spent in our group powered by people of the last couple of months registering voters in the lowest voter turnout counties in texas. web county, laredo, it's 50% of registered voters, el paso are, am 56% of registered voters turnout in 20, 20 we are knocking on the doors of
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unregistered future voters, and they are telling us that they want to get registered with our volunteers, because of what's happening in the state capital right now. in the words of one woman, they wouldn't be trying this hard to take away our vote, if our vote was in this important, so yes sign me up. i agree with you, i think there is going to be a response with this from the texas voters they are smart enough to know what's going on, and they realize they hold the future of this country in their hands, they will decide the outcome, not only of texas-based elections, but texas-based elections like presidential, and they will determine who or next president will be, and i think you are going to see texans show up in record numbers. >> bill o'rourke thank you so much for starting off our discussion we really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thanks. coming up, another case of police use of deadly force in north carolina, left lawyers calling that incident today an execution, after they saw some of the police body cam video. that's next.
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that's next.
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an execution, that's what attorneys for the family of andrew brown described what happens to him when at least seven police officers approached him in his car and shot him to death. today, members of andrew brown's family and one of the lawyers were allowed to see only 20 seconds of just one of the police body cam videos. here's what the lawyers for andrew brown's family said after seeing that video. >> we only saw a snippet of the video where we know that the video started before and after. they show the family and they determined what was pertinent. >> one body cam, 20 seconds in execution.
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>> this was an execution. andrew brown was in his driveway. the sheriff chuck locked him in his driveway so he could not exit his driveway. andrew had his hands on his steering wheel. he was not reaching for anything. he wasn't touching anything he wasn't finding anything about he had his hands firmly on the steering wheel. they run up to his vehicle shooting. he still stood there said there his vehicle with his hands on the steering wheel while being shot at. >> joining us now, kirk burkhalter, a criminal law professor at new york law school where he is the director of the 21st century policing project. he is a former nypd detective, professor burkhalter.
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we we know very little other than what we heard described about that 20 seconds of video the video has not yet been released, there's going to be a court hearing about releasing that and possibly more video, based on what we know so far. what's your reaction to the evidence as we know it at this point? >> well, lawrence, my reaction is we actually do not know much. and that is the problem. the family was shown this 22nd video, we know solely that the suspect slash victim was unarmed. and we're not sure how many shots were fired how many police officers were on the scene. we're not even sure how much video footage was captured. and this is a tremendous problem. in this era where police have lost the benefit of the doubt you would think that police officers, i'm sorry, police departments would err on the side of transparency. and that doesn't seem to be the
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case here. so this leaves the door open for speculation from the public. and that's not a good thing in this day and age. so unfortunately, we know very little except that this man was unarmed. and when a person is shot by the police, and particularly a person of color, and they are unarmed. in this day and age, the public does deserve some form of information far beyond. we have to wait to complete the investigation. >> but if these accounts are accurate that his hands were on the steering wheel the entire time that he's being fired at and they also did say that at the very beginning of the video, there was already an empty shell casing that was visible so that this video actually is a shooting by police in progress. so far, there's no evidence that we're seeing in this so far that in any way justifies the shooting. >> well, that's correct. lawrence, based on what we have heard from the police department, what we have heard from the family. what we have not heard one
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allegation that in any way, shape or form that this man was attempting to use deadly physical force against the police officers. so once again, it's what we don't know. you know, in most instances if a gun was found if someone fired shots at the police officer when aim the gun at the police, we would hear it but we do not hear that here. in addition to the officers that were placed on administrative leave, we have i think, as a total of three officers that left the department immediately to resign and one retired and that's a very poor sign as to what is going on here. i think that this was handled. it's been ill handled. and this is a textbook example of where perhaps an independent investigative body needs to step in and take charge of this investigation. the public does not have much faith in what will come out of this investigation if handled by the local authorities. >> let's take a look back at one of the expert witnesses in the chauvet trial that we analyzed as it was underway.
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last week, 400 doctors signed a letter calling for a review of everyone who died in police custody in maryland during dr. david fowler's 17 years as maryland's chief medical examiner, after dr. fowler delivered testimony in dark children's defense that was contradicted by every other medical expert in the case, the letter from 400 doctors said quote, doctor fowler's stated opinion that george floyd's death during active police restraint should be certified with an undetermined manner is outside the standard practice and conventions for investigating and certification of in custody deaths. this stated opinion raises significant concerns for his previous practice and management. if forensic pathologists can offer such baseless opinions without penalty, then the entire criminal justice system is at risk. and on friday, maryland's
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attorney general began investigating deaths in police custody during dr. fowler's tenure as medical examiner. joining us now is philip jackson, criminal justice reporter for the baltimore sun covering this story. phil jackson, what else can you tell us about the attorney general's review of these cases? >> well, we can tell you right now that this is in the preliminary stages, but mostly with dr. david fowler. it's the families that have been affected, which they have expressed a lot of concern about a lot of his rules. and the reason why the attorney general is looking at that 17 year tenure is because there's a lot of cases specifically a case of anton black, a 19 year old black teenager who died while in police custody on maryland's eastern shore. and a lot of families, they still feel that pain of injustice that they've told us and they want to they want to see a higher level of accountability to a lot of those families that extends past the police department.
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>> and professor burkhalter we remember analyzing that testimony on this program. it was really stunning testimony for people who've seen a lot of medical examiner testimony in court and jury the one juror who's been interviewed about this rejected dr. fowler's testimony outright did not believe it, believe dr. tobin completely refuting that testimony. what's your reaction to this review of his work? during the time when he was a medical examiner? >> lawrence, this is just the last thing the entire criminal justice community needs at this particular point, where as we just mentioned, you know, the police have lost the benefit of the doubt. and now this other person who oversees what is supposed to be an independent body, and according to reports, has particular issues with the clarifying and reporting on the deaths of in particular african americans in police custody. it's just a horrible thing. it's not too surprising giving the testimony during the derek chauvin trial with this kind of outrageous claim about the carbon monoxide poisoning.
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i would certainly hope that the attorney general of maryland will get to the bottom of this but the ramifications of having to reopen all these cases, which some of which may be perhaps homicides. i just can't think of a worse result. >> phil jackson, what was the reaction in baltimore, in maryland at the time of dr. fowler's testimony in the chauvin trial? >> right so at this time, he said to me, again, the families and sounds like they they saw that testimony, and many saw that as hypocritical they think they saw what he said in the george floyd and george for his death and you know, what his room were and what he thought that eluding third solve and we're responsible for that debt. and that was a reminder for a man defense for what they experienced even back in 2013, baltimore city with tyrone west, they, at the end of the day, a
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lot of these families are seeking accountability and justice and again, you know, to them, it extends past the police department. it's more so efficient. >> phil jackson and kurt burkhalter. thank you both very much for joining us tonight. >> my pleasure. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> coming up, the winner of that special book award that i am inventing tonight, for the most scholarly book of the year written by a united states senator, will join us next, that author will join us next, tonight's mystery guests. did you know the source of odor in your home... ...could be all your soft surfaces? odors get trapped in your home's fabrics and resurface over time. febreze fabric refresher eliminates odors. its water-based formula safely penetrates fabrics where odors hide. spray it on your rugs, your curtains, your furniture, all over your home to make it part of your tidying up routine.
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why is google free? or is it really free? why does google control over 90% of our online searches? how did we let that happen? was there anything we could have done about it? what should we do about facebook now, the federal government started thinking about, and then worrying about and then legislating about questions exactly like this, long before google was invented. 14 years after the first telephone call by alexander graham bell, the congress, in an almost unanimous vote, passed the sherman antitrust act of 1890. and suddenly, if a company controlled 90% of anything in the united states, it became very likely that the federal government was going to break up that company. this story is brilliantly told
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in an important new book that explains so much about how we live today, and how the presidents of 100 years ago would not believe what we have allowed our biggest and most monopolistic and richest companies to do. the book is an economic adventure story of sorts, that is a real page turner, it really is. it even has cartoons. of course, some of you don't naturally feel yourselves drawn to complex policy issues. but the new york times calls this book, an impressive work of scholarship. and like any impressive work of scholarship, it unfortunately has a title that will make almost all of you turn away from it in a bookstore. but perhaps the author can convince you to give this book the chance that it deserves to find a place on your important nonfiction shelf. joining us now the author of antitrust, taking on monopoly
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power from the gilded age to the digital age. amy klobuchar. thank you very much for joining us tonight, senator really appreciate it. you know, i didn't i think you know, i didn't plan for this segment to be all about the book. but this is great. this tells a story that is so important for today. but it begins over 130 years ago. >> exactly. and if you go back to the founding of our country, lawrence, and yes, people came to this country because they wanted economic freedom. they wanted to have political freedom, religious freedom, and they didn't want to buy everything from the east india tea company, and do business with a bunch of monopolies over the pond. and so you literally go back to the beginnings of america.
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and you see this entrepreneurial spirit, where literally capitalism has rejuvenated itself, every few decades, by new companies coming on by every so often, the government breaking up at&t, and giving us lower long distance rates and starting the cell phone business because we didn't have it all controlled by one company. and where we are today is years of inaction. so i thought, how can i make this real for people because we've done nothing. as i've said, for decades in congress, the courts have gotten increasingly conservative using the theories of robert bork. and so now it's on so i thought, okay, i'm going to write this big book, i'm going to try to make it interesting. throw in a bunch of cartoons tell the stories of the people involved, like the woman who actually started the monopoly game, and i had a turbo who was a muckraker took on standard
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oil, and just hope that people will join me in this quest, to finally use our antitrust laws the way they should be and take on the monopolies again. >> yeah, when we say cartoons, we should clarify for the audience. these are the these are the kinds of things that you might see in your newspaper over the course of the last 100 years. the smart cartoons in the new yorker, and they're so they're shockingly explanatory, i have to say, and they are they they are embedded on pages with with scholarly prose that is so precise and so careful and yet so full of the way we really live makes such clear sense to us that it shouldn't be this way. >> exactly. and this is not just tack, it goes from cat food to caskets. in fact, a john oliver did a segment on this trying to explain it and he talked about the consolidation and online travel, the consolidation that we're seeing in pharmaceuticals, and he finally ended by saying if this is enough to make you want to die, good luck. because there's only three casket makers left, and actually since then one has bought the other. so there's only two. so i make the case for once again, making our logs as
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sophisticated as the economy that we're in right now. we have trillion dollar $2 trillion companies that are gateway gatekeepers to whether it is search engines with google, whether it is social media platforms with facebook, or whether it is the app stores with apple and google, a hearing that we had last week, which was extraordinary for the bipartisan pushback about the fact that people are now paying companies that have an app on the app store 30% of what you buy on there goes to one of those two companies, for a number of consumer companies. and that's just wrong. >> yeah, it is stunning that that this body of law was invented 130 years ago, and became more and more vital and important over time. and yet, it was it was unlike the tax code, it was just left to sit there almost kind of an accident of who is going to be the you know, assistant attorney general, who happens to be in charge of anti trust, and how active is that person going to be? >> exactly. and now we have merrick garland in place, someone who actually taught antitrust before, someone who had his own announcement of his nomination by president biden talked about antitrust. and so i think it is really exciting what we could do
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remember these lawsuits against google and facebook, or were filed under the previous administration. and a lot of success that we've seen over the years and taking on monopoly power, does bridge administrations and he has that kind of broad political support and legal support. so that's the first thing. the second thing is making sure these agencies aren't shadows of their former selves. and in the book, i make the case for this senator grassley and i have a bill to finally change the fee structure for when big mergers come before the agencies and make them pay just a little more so that they can hire the lawyers at the agencies to take them on. you can take on trillion dollar
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companies with duct tape and band aids, which is basically what we're asking them to do right now. and so that has bipartisan support. so i give 25 things we can do, both in congress, the administration and as citizens to be able to enhance our competition policy in america. >> well, senator, you are officially the winner of the first moynahan book award. i'm holding up the book here. that's named in honor of senator daniel patrick moynihan, who wrote a scholarly book almost every year that he was in the senate, but never, never. did he have 205 pages of notes footnotes in the book, do you credit your husband, john besler? yes, helping you with the footnotes, which is a stunning work in and of itself. and i just want the audience to know about this team. because you say in acknowledging your husband's work in this book, you say like me, my husband has a deep respect for history and the law. he actually proposed to me on abraham lincoln's birthday, in a bookstore in the nonfiction aisle, of course. so there's romance in this book too. >> and you also -- my affections. so there you go. >> klobuchar, thank you very much for joining us tonight. we really appreciate it and love the book. just love it. >> thank you.
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>> thank you. well, on wednesday night, president biden will describe the tax increases he wants to use to pay for his $2 trillion infrastructure package, but there's another way to pay for it. without raising any taxes just stop cheaters. the irs estimates that tax cheaters owe the treasury $1 trillion a year in tax payments that they never pay because republicans have made sure that the irs does not have the
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personnel or the resources to fully enforce tax law. that's a deliberate choice by republicans. that is why our next guest has introduced the stop cheaters act. the formal name of the bill is the stop corporations and higher earners from avoiding taxes and enforce rules strictly act stop cheaters joining us now is democratic congressman ro khanna of california. he is the author of the stop cheaters act. carson kinda i've been waiting for this for a long time the tax gap as they call it, the gap between what the irs could collect if they just had enough agents and inspectors and resources and what they do collect is now running. they say about a trillion dollars a year. >> okay, absolutely right. this is not some clever scheme to avoid tax. this is flat out cheating people who don't pay the taxes that they're owed. and here's the shocking thing, the irs audits, the poorest counties in mississippi, more
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than they audit the richest top 1%, even though a lot of the cheating and non payment is in the top 1%. so what this bill does is two things. one, it says audit the people who actually aren't paying the taxes and larry summers and economists have shown that that is the case. until it says let banks disclose business income because a lot of taxes that aren't being paid, is because banks aren't disclosing the income. if you do those two things, we'd raise $1.2 trillion, that would go a long way to paying for president biden's infrastructure bill. >> you mentioned, the study that professor summers co authored with two others, including a former irs commissioner, i just want to use a table put it up on the screen for people to see this is the the the decline in audit rates for filers from 2011 to 2018.
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and so for all filers the decline in auditing was 45%. for the very richest people, it was much, much higher, if you made 1 million to $5 million, the decline in auditing of tax returns in that category was at an 81%. decline, almost the same for 5 million to 10 million 10 million and above. and so car's been there it is, there's a there's a decline, because those are the most complex returns. they take the largest team to do the audits, and republicans have consistently cut the irs his ability to do that work. >> now say right, lawrence, and it's worse than that. the republicans have said let's audit the people getting the earned income tax credit. so they want to go after the grand mother who's claiming their grandchild for an earned income tax credit, but they don't want to go after the multimillionaires who aren't paying taxes on income. but most people say how do you cheat on your taxes, because most people they get a paycheck, they get a w two they pay what they owe. but what's going on here is a lot of these people have
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multiple businesses, and there's no way of determining how much income they're making from those businesses unless they're audited, and the irs isn't auditing them. and it's auditing instead low income americans, it's really outrageous. >> and but this is also possibly part of why joe biden's tax increase proposals increase in the corporate tax rate. and basically an elimination of the capital gains rate for people with incomes over a million dollars, they would pay capital gains as regular income tax. those are very popular proposals, because it i think most taxpayers have a sense, this is not fair. and it isn't even fair on the enforcement, then. >> lawrence that's right, let me give you a very concrete example of what president biden does to raise $400 billion right now, if you buy a million 1so a lot o tax theid they'll se for her book. it's a terrific read. >> it really is. it really is. thank you, congressman. >> lawrence that's right, let me give you a very concrete example of what president biden
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does to raise $400 billion right now, if you buy a million dollars of stock in facebook, and that stock goes up to $10 million. now you give that stock, which is $10 million to your son upon your death, that son does not have to pay any capital gains on the $9 million appreciation under our current law. so a lot of people actually hold these assets until their death, pass it on as inherited wealth and totally avoid pay 0% capital gains, president biden says let's actually tax the appreciation and capital gains just like most people have to pay that raises $400 billion. so when people actually look at what president biden is proposing, they'll say, wow, i didn't even know that people weren't being taxed on that. that's so unfair. president biden is proposing common sense fairness to the code. >> carson ro khanna, thank you for introducing this legislation. thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you and i share amy klobuchar and your enthusiasm for her book. it's a terrific read. >> it really is. it really is.
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thank you, congressman. >> thank you. >> and coming up in tonight's episode of defendant trump, the new york daily news has unearthed an underoath deposition by donald trump's accountant from the year before. that's next. try pantene daily moisture renewal conditioner. its color-safe formula uses smart conditioners to micro-target damage helping to repair hair without weighing it down. try pantene. ♪ when i was young ♪ no-no-no-no-no please please no. ♪ i never needed anyone. ♪ front desk. yes, hello... i'm so... please hold. ♪ those days are done. ♪ i got you.
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new york daily news as obtained previously unreported documents from a 2015 deposition of donald trump's accountant in a lawsuit over the now defunct trump university in which donald trump reached a settlement requiring him to pay $25 million to the former trump university students who sued trump for fraud. and that 2015 testimony, allen weisselberg said that he leaves the legal side of the money flow to others. the daily news reports, asked about the time he found himself eavesdropping on a discussion among trump lawyers about the alleged illegality of marketing trump's for profit school as a university in new york, weisselberg said he didn't delve deeper. he admitted asking in a 2005 email if executives planted just set up a fictitious office
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in illinois slash delaware as they dealt with the issue but he said his inquiry centered exclusively on cost, not propriety. i can't help them with that role. that's not my thing, he testified. i was only concerned about the economic side of it. they were handling the legal side of it. joining us now is glenn kershner, legal analyst. glenn, it is hard to keep a straight face reading those pieces of that deposition. >> you know, lawrence, that maybe the least compelling defense i have ever heard as a former career prosecutor. now, you are the sort of self proclaimed stickler of a chief financial officer. you are keeping track of every dollar that comes into and goes out of the trump organization. and you're confronted with your own email where you are expressly discussing the fact
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that executives are setting up fictitious offices in illinois or delaware and your defense is, well, i was just concerned with the cost of the fictitious office. and he actually, i think, use the phrase, the legality is not really my thing. and that phrase maybe the least compelling defense i have ever heard. the light gallaudet part, it's not really my thing. >> well, legality is going to be his thing in the grand jury investigation at the manhattan attorney is doing now and that's -- glenn, talk about the difference between a civil deposition was just what that was. someone like allen weisselberg if he's forced to testify in a grand journey proceeding and how different that is. >> yeah, i mean in a grand jury proceeding and i've been in lots of grand juries, prosecutors will really wear him out. they will confront him with
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every piece of documentation, every email if they have his text messages. and they will leave no stone unturned. but the bad news for allen weisselberg is whether it's a civil this deposition or in a grand jury setting, anything you say can be used as an admission against you unless you've been granted immunity. and remember, there was a time when this other district of new york prosecutors were investigating michael cohen for the campaign finance violations he committed with and at the direction of donald trump. and there was a limited immunity grant that vaccine, which would have been federal, not state, and that is what they are investigating. so that is another sure sign that if you had to be granted even limited immunity by the feds, obviously you were engaged in some misconduct. >> and for a witness like
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weisselberg, the threat of possible perjury charges is very thick in the air in a grand jury room as opposed to a civil deposition. >> yeah, and not only that. if he has coconspirator liability, if hypothetically the trump organization is a criminal conspiracy and he was part of it, you know, coconspirator liability the reaches extraordinarily far. so he would actually be criminally responsible for every crime committed by every other member of the conspiracy, whether he personally participated in that crime or not. so it looks like the have to get to work with to try to bring weisselberg into the fold and then potentially flip him against trump. >> glenn kershner, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you lawrence. >> that is tonight's last word. blocking heartburn at the source.
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