tv Deadline White House MSNBC April 15, 2021 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT
is not clear. you see the voice slow down, the officer approach and the shooting happen in a matter of seconds. the rest of the video is a 13-year-old lying on the ground and nonresponsive as officers try to resuscitate him. it is unbelievably difficult and heartbreaking to watch. and protests are expected to start now in just a matter of a couple of hours, ayman. >> all right, antonia hylton, stay safe out there. we'll continue to follow all the developments around this story. that does it for me. i'll see you right back here tomorrow at 3:00 p.m. eastern. "deadline: white house" with nicolle wallace starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. the biden administration today going farther than anyone else has gone in four years, essentially accusing the trump campaign of colluding with russia. the announcement made by the u.s. treasury department in a series of sweeping sanctions,
includes one against russian intelligence officer konstantin kilimnik, accusing him of providing the russian intelligence services with, quote, sensitive information on polling and campaign strategy in 2016. the polling data was delivered to kilimnik by trump's campaign chairman paul manafort, a fact uncovered by the mueller probe, but it was never known what kilimnik did with it. from "the washington post" reporting, quote, the treasury department is sanctioning a total of 32 entities and individuals involved in the influence campaign as well as other acts of disinformation. they include konstantin kilimnik, the ukrainian-russian who worked in ukraine with trump's 2016 presidential campaign chairman paul manafort. the u.s. senate panel last year concluded kilimnik was a russian intelligence officer and treasury on thursday offered new details, saying that during the 2016 campaign, kilimnik, quote, provided russian intelligence services with that sensitive information, polling and
campaign strategy. the biden administration including kilimnik in an extensive set of harsh sanctions today where they laid the blame directly on the kremlin for the sleeping solar wind cyber attack and seeked to punish them for russia's interference in the 2020 presidential election as well. in addition to the 32 entities and individuals sanctioned, biden's executive order targets russia's economy, expels 10 russian officials from the u.s., and blacklists six russian technology companies. the president is set to deliver remarks on russia later this hour. when they begin, we will bring them to you live. this is where we start the hour, with some of our favorite reporters and friends. jonathan lemire is back, white house reporter for associated press. also joining us andrew weissmann, who was one of special counsel robert mueller's top lieutenants in the investigation of russian interference in 2016. and former fbi special agent clint watts is back. he testified before the senate intelligence committee on russian interference. lucky for us, all three are
msnbc contributors. andrew, i must start with you. take me through, and all of our viewers through exactly what is new today in these treasury sanction, and how it adds to what we learned i believe as the public for the first time from your investigation. >> so there is really big news today and certainly for people like me who spent two years working on the manafort case. konstantin kilimnik ran paul manafort's ukraine operation. he was his right-hand man. and the same way that rick gates was paul manafort's right-hand man, but in the united states. konstantin kilimnik was known when we flipped rick gates and he started cooperating, he was known as the person who was given the trump internal polling data. that was the big bombshell we learned from rick gates, that paul manafort had ordered rick
gates to give polling data -- this is sensitive polling data about any other campaign would love to have was given to konstantin kilimnik. but the big unknown, and our report says we did not know what konstantin kilimnik did with that data. and the defense was also saying, well, this was just being used in ukraine. it was for business purposes. that never made a lot of sense to us, but we didn't have evidence. and today what is new, nicolle, is that the treasury department certainly with the approval of the dni, that is the highest intelligence office in the government has said that konstantin kilimnik gave that material, which he repeatedly got during the 2016 campaign to russian intelligence. so you now have a direct link of something that went internal
sensitive data that went from the trump campaign through paul manafort to konstantin kilimnik to the russians. and that was always robert mueller's bet in terms of why we were pursuing a case against paul manafort was that if there was going to be a link to russia, that would likely be it because paul manafort had such strong ties to the russian-backed oligarchs, including then president of ukraine viktor yanukovych. >> i just want to pull this thread and sort of understand from just as my perch as a former campaign official. let me kind of say this is the kind of data that doesn't even go to an entire campaign staff. your internal polls and targeting determines candidate travel, ad spending. there is no purpose for a foreign government, unless they're aiding the campaign. so are you saying that what we learned today is that the russian attack on the 2016
election was armed with the same data as trump's attacks on his opponent? >> i'm sorry, i dropped -- >> can you hear us now, andrew? andrew, we're going fix your audio to make sure that we've got you. jonathan lemire, i want to take the question to you of the significance of what was so forcefully denied by donald trump and his campaign. because it seems like andrew's explanation of this is that this closes the circle. we knew that paul manafort had taken data, and i worked on campaigns. the internal polls and the targeting data isn't even distributed widely among an entire campaign staff. it's really held closely by senior staff. there is no function for foreign government to are that kind of data unless they're aiding said campaign. so this does seem to close the link. it's something that the trump campaign denied over and over and over again. and it seemed to come from donald trump's ego saying i won,
i'm a big boy, i won all by myself. i didn't neat putin's help. but that seems to blow that out of the water. >> nicolle, it sure looks like collusion, doesn't it? which of course we know that president trump denied repeatedly, that was his mantra, no collusion, no collusion. but you're right. this is extraordinary evidence. this is a significant development today by far, the furthest that we have heard, that any of the last three administrations, how far the biden administration was willing to go to suggest a link between the russians and donald trump's campaign. we know the obama administration was largely silent during 2016. trump himself of course and his administration didn't do anything about it. but now we're seeing a change. and it is significant. as you just laid out, that's very prized data, the campaign that ended in mr. kilimnik's hands. that's something in a campaign very few staffers have access to because it is so important. so it does team that at least in some measure, the russians were
interested in perhaps trying to help the trump campaign. now what exactly they did with that data remains unclear, but if they used it perhaps it doesn't take too much of an inference or leap to suggest that maybe the data was used for their own ad campaigns. we know how they dom barded social media in 2016. we know the social misinformation campaign. we know if they had access to that they could more finely target their own efforts. so this is a significant development, and it comes, nicolle, certainly as this new administration, the biden administration takes a much harder line with russia in terms of sanctions, in terms of pushing back putin, warning him about the buildup in ukraine and human rights, especially alexey navalny, reportedly in poor health right now in a russian prison. >> clint, i want to read you the two investigations that established what we knew before today about kilimnik and what he did with the polling data that
paul manafort gave him from the trump campaign. the mueller investigation established this because of questions about manafort's credibility and our limited ability to gather evidence on what happened to the polling data after it went to kilimnik, the office could not assess what kilimnik or others he may have given it to did with it. the office did not identify evidence of a connection between manafort sharing polling data and russia's interference in the election which had already been recorded by media outlets a the tim of the august 2nd meeting between manafort and kilimnik. they wrote this. a channel for coordination on the gru hack may have existed through kilimnik, but the committee had limited insight into kilimnik's communications with manafort and redacted all of used sophisticated communication security practices. the committee us unable to determine why manafort shared sensitive polling data or campaign information with kilimnik. what the sanction language describes in sanctioning
konstantin kilimnik is certainty that what manafort gave kilimnik was then consumed by, delivered to russian intelligence. what is the significance of closing that circle, as jonathan said, establishing collusion? >> that was the missing part, nicolle, because there were several pieces to it. and that also came out in the sanctions today. if you rewind, kilimnik is an agent of the gru, the russian military. the gru is the hacking outfit that went after hillary clinton, many of her emails, the dccc, many of these targets were from gru hackers. simply, there is a guy namd forget pergosian. they were doing very targeted social media operations. what would they need? it would be great to know two things. one, what is the trump campaign strategy? two, where would they refine their targeting net? and there is really a third one, which is how far do we want to
go with the trump campaign. if you know that data, know both the trump campaign strategy and what the polling strategy is saying and jury vladimir putin, you start to make calculations about how much you want to interfere in the election and where would you interfere in the election? where would you pull those levers going into election day. that's a very powerful loop. it's three parts. it's hacking, it's influence on social media, and now we know about actual agents who were doing inside the trump campaign having connections in terms of what that strategy is. that is the triad of a perfect influence and interference campaign going into election 2016. and i would note, nicolle, that konstantin kilimnik, he is still on twitter. i guarantee you, he is probably watching this segment right now, and he has been spotted several times tweeting about what's going on with u.s. election 2020. many of the people sanctioned today, pergosian, his network, it extends into africa. one of the people sanctioned malkovich. malkovich was sanctioned in
2018. he is now sanctioned again. this system continues to perpetuate because we didn't do anything during those middle years between 2016 and 2020. we had very limited actions because president trump was the president. and that was always the barrier to going full circle like we did today. >> well, you just hinted at where i want to go with you, andrew weissmann. do you think this intelligence about kilimnik's conduct after he received the targeting and campaign information from manafort, what he did with it was known to u.s. intelligence? what information or intelligence did the u.s. treasury department have when they wrote what was released into today's sanction that you did not have as a mueller team investigator? >> well, the one thing that it's clear, as you've reported, nicolle, we did not have the piece that is what kilimnik did with the polling data that we now know from the release today actually went, as clint said, directly to russian intelligence.
the interesting question that i don't know the answer to is was that information known to the intelligence community at the time of the mueller investigation. you know, my sort of educated speculation on that would be it seem like it would have to have been known because the biden administration has only been operational for -- i'm in new york, so i'll say a new york minute. so it seems unlikely that they really went ahead with that deep investigation and got the information that quickly. so the question is why didn't it get to the special counsel investigation? and you know, i spearheaded manafort, part of that investigation. i can tell you it certainly would have been of great interest, and we tried to turn over every rock that we could to prove up this link. and i would just say a good analogy of this is watergate. you know, in watergate, you had
the republicans breaking into the democratic party because you want to know what your opponent is doing. well, now we have the complete link of we have russia knowing exactly what the trump campaign polling information was and what they were seeing as strengths and weaknesses of their own and of hillary clinton. so they could use that to, as clint said, target what they were doing in both the hack and dump and also the influence campaign in terms of what states were vulnerable or not. one final piece is it's important to note that this is in the mueller report, which is that paul manafort was conveying to kilimnik what they were seeing in terms which states were swing states, including places like wisconsin. and that's something that was not generally well-known. and so now we know that kilimnik was relaying all of that information back to the gru in russia.
>> well, and donald trump was carrying out his end of the bargain as well. jonathan lemire, let me show you some of the love he gave vladimir putin. >> putin's a killer. >> a lot of killers. we got a lot of killers. you think our country's so innocent? if he says great things about me, i'm going to say great things about him. i've always said he is very much of a leader. >> i have great confidence in my intelligence people, but i will tell you that president putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today. >> so jonathan lemire, these comments sort of bordered on, you know, uninformed to puzzling to maybe defiant and dismissive of his intelligence community. certainly what you got from him in helsinki falls in that category. but now in light of the fact that the circle has been completed between not some lackey on his campaign, not some coffee boy, but his campaign chairman who gave the most sensitive campaign data to
constantine kilimnik who then gave to it russian intelligence, it certainly casts all of trump's flattery and loyalty and public servitude to vladimir putin in a new light. >> precisely right. and that has always been the question here, right, nicolle, is to what really motivated president trump with his adoration -- let's use that word -- of vladimir putin. and look, we know some of it can be ascribed to the fact that trump is always drawn to strong men, not just putin, but others around the globe as well. but it always ran deeper than that with putin. it ran -- it ran, you know, to the point where it sort of defined american policy. and there was certainly some levels of the government that did issue sanctions on the russians. the senate, and it was a rare moment where they rebuked president trump, the republican-controlled senate when they also took measures against russia. but that tone was never set from the top. and we know that there was
never -- trump not only denied it in helsinki when he sided with putin over u.s. intelligence, but later he repeatedly did. and if we mock warned putin, don't ever do it again at the following year when he refused to confront him on reports of possible bounties on american soldiers. there has certainly been exhaustive investigations into finance -- potential financial links, other measures. talk of kompromat that involved the russians. now it does raise more questions. what exactly was the other end of the deal here. what favor perhaps, perhaps was trump trying to repay with all that flattery of putin and the friendly american policy towards him? >> well, i wonder too, clint watts, i want to read something you wrote. it's clear that the russians got their end of the deal. you write this. you wrote this back in 2018. in trump and his campaign, mr. trump spotted a golden activity
and motivated by fame and fortune, a foreign policy novice surrounded by unscreened opportunists opened a manipulation and unaware of russia's long run game of subversion. mr. putin has succeeded where his soviet forefathers failed by leveraging money and cyberspace to subtle i influence americans while maintaining plausible deniability of their efforts. and the kremlin's ground game cut ous intermediaries who facilitated communication between agents conducted a more complex game. does this make trump and manafort the useful idiots, or does it make them something worse? were they complicit? >> i actually see the two of them being a little bit different. i think manafort absolutely knew what he was doing and had reason. he had motive to essentially build out that relationship. my understanding of it is that he was financially in trouble. and in a lot of the messages that came out in the mueller investigation, you saw him talk about how does this make us whole? how does this patch up relationships because hi he was
in deep trouble in ukraine. it had not gone well. for president trump from the start, it was impossible for him to be the manchurian candidate because quite frankly, he is too lazy. he did not understand what goes on between the united states and russia or what putin was trying to do. i really don't believe the president had a fuel understanding of how putin can manipulate people, how he can ingratiate and start to turn them, which is the hole idea is to turn president trump into someone who is a fan essentially of russian foreign policy. and so he is very influential in that space because he knows how to play to ego, money, fame. and when you do that, especially with somebody like president trump who just wants to see his name in the papers, who just wants to be ingratiated, well, that's a pretty easy mark for a former kgb intelligence officer. when you look at the entire strategy, it's really about influence and how you do that influence. and they -- i think they cannot believe to this day what a coup
they pulled off in terms of the information space and the influence on the u.s. during the trump years. and i think what we're seeing now that's also going to be a very rocky and really interesting period in the next couple of months is the cutoff between u.s. and russia which was bound to happen at some point after the trump administration. >> so, andrew, clint uses the word "coup." i'm going go there. do you think we will ever know if trump could have won without putin's help? >> no, we won't know that. i don't think -- i don't think that's really actually knowable because i don't think you can really have any individual will be able to say i'm not really sure why i voted this way or that way. but in terms of the systemic issue, it's really important that none of us ever have to ask that question again. and i do think what happened today is something that we should really expect to see more of. we now have a rule of law
administration that now has access to the data that was available to the trump administration. and so this is a huge bombshell today in terms of information, but i would expect to see more because they now have access to information that was i think probably deliberately withheld. >> do you think, andrew weissmann, that this opens an investigative path? do you have more questions as someone as you said spearheaded the manafort investigation, or does this kind of answer that which was left unanswered? >> i think there is more to know, and there are places in our report where we signaled things that were left unanswered. i think from an intelligence perspective, you can be sure that the dni is going to want to pursue this, and as you're seeing today, there are
ramifications in terms of foreign policy. i'm not sure i would say that they're going to necessarily see a criminal investigation, but i am confident that you're going see this pursued as a national security investigation. and just the one big question i have, which i do think deserves an answer is who had this information during the trump administration and why wasn't it conveyed to the special counsel's office? i do think that is an important question. >> we will stay on this. jonathan lemire, andrau weissmann, clint watts, three more perfect people to have this conversation do not exist. thank you so much. we will stay on the russia story when the president addresses it later this hour. we'll carry it live. while we wait for that, there was some suspense today in the derek chauvin murder trial around specifically whether or not the former officer would take the stand in his own defense. we'll bring you what he said so that point today in court.
and the debate over fully reopening as covid continues to spread erupted today at a hearing between dr. anthony fauci and jim jordan, jacketless as usual. we'll play it for you. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. applebee's irresist-a-bowls are back. dig in for just $8.99. it's a thirteen-hour flight, that's not a weekend trip. applebee's irresist-a-bowls are back. fifteen minutes until we board. oh yeah, we gotta take off. you downloaded the td ameritrade mobile app so you can quickly check the markets? yeah, actually i'm taking one last look at my dashboard before we board. excellent. and you have thinkorswim mobile- -so i can finish analyzing the risk on this position. you two are all set. have a great flight. thanks. we'll see ya. ah, they're getting so smart. choose the app that fits your investing style. ♪♪
after calling only seven witnesses to the stand, the defense rested its case this morning in the trial of derek chauvin for the murder of george floyd, setting up closing arguments for next week after much anticipation about whether chauvin would take the stand in his own defense, chauvin decided to invoke his 5th amendment
against self-incrimination. >> have you made a decision today whether you intend to testify or whether you intend to invoke your 5th amendment privilege? >> i will invoke any 5th amendment privilege today. >> the rest of the day was not without drama after the prosecution announced that it found new evidence regarding carbon monoxide levels in floyd's blood after testimony yesterday from the defense's expert witness who suggested that carbon monoxide may have played a role. the judge denied that request to introduce these new test results, but allowed the state to call back their expert pulmonologist, dr. martin toban to rebut any questions about carbon monoxide with a stark warning to the prosecution. >> if he even hints that there are test results that the jury has not heard about, it's going to be a mistrial. >> let's bring in our conversation. shaquille brewster live for us in minneapolis and legal analyst paul butler, former federal
prosecutor, now professor at georgetown law. you know, shack, i think i apologized for being so focused on this carbon monoxide testimony, but it seemed so weird to me that the expert witness didn't know if the car was on or not. and it sounds like that testimony came back really to bite the defense in the rear end. >> right. but it also, you know, was a factor. they spent a lot of time on dr. fowler's testimony yesterday talking about the carbon monoxide. dr. fowler during the direct examination explaining his theory that it was possible at least that george floyd while being pinned next to that police vehicle was ingesting or at least inhaling some carbon monoxide and suffered from carbon monoxide poisoning as one of the possible causes of death. the defense -- excuse me, the prosecution this morning, and this is what led to that drama in the courtroom, the prosecution this morning said they got some new evidence that the medical examiner of hennepin county, dr. andrew baker, who also testified during this trial, that he called the attorneys and said there
actually is some evidence that shows that george floyd did not have that dangerous level of carbon monoxide in his system. the problem is that was not introduced as part of the record. so the judge didn't allow it. but you had dr. toban come back and swat that down by using evidence that was already in the record and kind of working his way backward to clarify that he does not believe that carbon monoxide was really a factor. i think it just goes back to the point that the defense, their job through their presentation was to create whatever doubt they can. and this was the prosecution doing what they can to at least eliminate that possibility of doubt from the jury before they begin their deliberation, nicolle. >> so, paul, the next thing that the jury will hear are the closing arguments from each side. what are you bracing for? what are we to brace ourselves for? >> you know, the prosecution has been very effective at presenting strong witnesses who suggested that chauvin's use of
force violated his training, his regulations, and the criminal law. the medical experts were wrighted in saying chauvin's knee on floyd's neck was a substantial factor in mr. floyd's death, and that's the legal requirement to convict chauvin of murder and manslaughter. the defense was not great on use of force. i think it was better on causation. the problem for the defense is how this case is different from most other prosecutions where the cops have shot somebody. that's a split-second decision. here derek chauvin had over nine minutes and he didn't adapt his use of force, including the nor -- including during the more than two minutes when he knew mr. floyd didn't have a pulse. >> i want to ask you quickly, paul butler, how do juries usually process or interpret someone invoking their fifth amendment right not to incriminate themselves in a courtroom? >> you know, the judge instructs the jury very carefully that
it's the constitutional right of the defendant. and the judge will reinforce that over and over again during the jury instructions. still, nicole, jurors like to hear from the accused person. so this was the most important decision of derek chauvin's life. his lawyer told the judge that they discussed it many times. they had a long conversation about it last night. i think the concern for the defense was that chauvin might be destroyed on cross-examination by prosecutors, or if he had taken the stand, he might have opened the door to the jury hearing about the many complaints in other cases that citizens have filed against him. >> i'm going to ask both of you to stay with us. we have some breaking news just coming in to us out of chicago. officials there have just released police body cam footage from a fatal shooting of a 13-year-old. 13-year-old adam toledo. the seventh grader was killed march 29th.
his death has gripped the city of championship. i must warn you, the video is graphic and very upsetting. it shows the shooting unfolding in just a matter of seconds. you can see the officer running towards 13-year-old toledo, who has his hands up. the officer fatally shoots him. the officer who chased toledo claims the teen had a gun, refused to put it down and was shot in the chest when he turned towards the officer. the officer has not been identified or charged. he is currently on administrative leave. mayor lori lightfoot says she has seen no evidence that toledo shot at the police, adding, quote, simply put, we failed adam. protests are planned for this evening, and the family's attorney will be holding a press conference later today, which we'll be covering. i don't even know what to say. this is a 13-year-old. i'm still haunted by the case of tamir rice. and i wonder paul butler, your thoughts. >> when will this end? where is the bottom? a 13-year-old child in the seventh grade shot dead within
20 seconds of the officer leaving his car. for investigators the most important question will be whether adam threatened the officer with a gun. we hear the officer in the video yelling "put your f word hands up." and adam appears to turn towards the officer with his hands up. and nicolle, that's when he is shot. >> shack, you're a reporter. i know you're trained better than most of us in objectivity, but your thoughts as you see another tragedy, this time a child, a 13-year-old child killed by police. >> yeah, nicolle, if i stick to here in minneapolis and we talk about the level of tension that this city is facing, the barbed wire, the fir barricades, the boarded up windows and buildings all around the downtown area, and then we go to what we saw earlier this week with the police shooting about 10, 15 minutes away from where we are right now. and then you see that video with
the 13-year-old, adam toledo, you just keep adding things on to the pot. you keep adding things into the pot. the frustration that people talk about, the fear that people have, the anger that people who come out on the streets. there is protesters right down the street just honk for justice. that's why you keep hearing the horns behind me. we talk about how tense things are already. it seems like we're just adding as many things as possible to that pot. of course we're still waiting for a verdict. that will happen we assume at some point next week. but it's a lot that you're asking people to handle and a lot that you're asking people to take as these videos continue to come out, nicolle. >> yeah. if you're a mother or a father of a black child, i think it's more than frustration. it's terror. it's grief. it's rage. it's unthinkable. shaquille brewster, paul butler, thank you so much for being part of our coverage today. when we come back, president
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the country face two major challenges this week. last night the cdc's independent advisory committee said it needs more time and information to study any safety issues where johnson & johnson's single dose vaccine. the other hurdle ongoing, unnecessary and completely upsetting. baseless gop cynicism against science threatening our chances out of the pandemic really any time soon. here was congressman jim jordan just a few hours ago. >> what measure, what standard, what objective outcome do we have to reach before -- before americans get their liberty and freedoms back? >> you know, you're indicating liberty and freedom. i look at it as a public health measure to prevent people from dying and going to the hospital. >> you don't people's liberties have been threatened the last year, dr. fauci? they've been assaulted. >> this will end for sure when we get the level of infection very low. it is now at such a high level there is a threat again of major -- >> dr. fauci, dr. fauci, over the last year, americans' first
amendment rights have been completely attacked. >> it would be funny if it wasn't so sad. joining our coverage, msnbc medical contributor dr. kavita patel, former obama health policy director. i look in on the covid propaganda being december sim na disseminated on fox news. it seems that jim jordan is trying to be a little mini tucker. and i wonder what the reality is that in america's cities and among practices. where do you see the vaccine hesitancy really thwarting our ability to reach herd immunity? >> yeah, nicolle, the vaccine hesitancy really now is coming in two different directions. there is the kind of republican white men who seem to take pride in it about refusing the vaccine. i'm hopeful that gets diminished as people want to return to some semblance of normal life, movie
theaters, restaurants, et cetera. but then we have an incredibly complicated composition of people, different reasons that they're hesitant, and it has nothing to do with liberty and freedom. it has everything to do, honestly, nicolle, with the government that let them fail from the beginning. so the question to ask for representative jordan, and i worked on the hill. the question to ask really is how much liberty and freedom did we lose because we didn't put testing in place, because we weren't honest with america about hydroxychloroquine or convalescent plasma or therapies that actually do work like steroids. that's the liberty and freedom we lost. so in practices like mine, we're trying just to get people scheduled and we're trying to answer questions like no, this does not mess your dna up. this does not ruin your chances of getting pregnant. and i hate to be even more blunt about it, but there is a great article in the lancet, the journal. it traces a lot of this misinformation to two groups on
facebook. so i can have hundreds of thousands of doctors trying to say the right thing, and i can get taken down by two groups on facebook. that's the reality on the ground. >> well, and the fact that that's the reality in your practice is such a disgrace for facebook and all the social media companies doing nothing to limit the dissemination of disinformation. i wonder what you make. a lot of what we see dr. fauci do now is combat disinformation. and it seems that he is increasingly willing -- i guess he was always willing, but willing to go toe to toe with sort of the trumpiest part of the republican party. it feels like there is an assessment from the federal government that if we can't vaccinate the 30 to 40% of white men who are hesitance, we can't really stamp out the virus in communities. >> yeah. it has more to do with biology, just getting back to basic science. it's something dr. fauci has talked about. if you don't have -- if you have
people who are unvaccinated and have an opportunity for a virus to infect someone, it's going to be those people who have no immunity. and so those 30 to 40%, let's say it's even 25%, nicolle, that becomes a threat to the world's ability to kind of recover. so i see liberty and freedom tied to our ability to actually not just vaccinate people but educate people that if you're getting infected, we had covid positive tests today, thousands of them. i want those people to get nonno clonenal antibodies. i want them to ask them when they can bring their family members come in to see them, because we're letting people come in now. i want people the take little bit of their life back by answering the questions in public health and science. i want a little bit of dr. fauci's wisdom in all of us, but the truth, nicolle, we're fighting so much misinformation that we're just exhausted. i mean, we're tired. a year ago i had to explain why hydroxychloroquine could kill you or why bleach wasn't a good
idea. and now today i'm trying to explain that our safety and regulatory system works and that, yes, it was impossible to expect zero kind of adverse events with a vaccine, but i want you to get this, because it will prevent you from dying. you know, it's so hard to get that across. we're going to keep trying. >> well, what is the latest on j&j? because i want to make sure it's clear to our viewers, is the pause because there is more troubling information or is the pause so that they can reassure the public that it's safe, with the best data available? >> it's the latter. i won't lie. i was a little disappointed to see kind of what i would say is the can kicked down the road another two weeks. but i had a night to sleep on it, reflect on it. because i had to cancel a bunch of patients' appointments and reschedule them. so i was also a little kind of nervous. it is paused so that we can see over the next two weeks, one to
two week, people who had just recently received the vaccine, if we see more cases, more events, that can give us stronger safety signals. so far we have six cases that we know of, possibly a seventh case. that's out of seven million vaccines given. so this is a pause to really give clinicians and doctors like me something to look for when a patient calls me and tells me they're having a severe headache. severe headache, shortness of breath, chest pain, unusual swelling, what to look out for immediately call your doctor or go to an emergency room if it's also someone who has received the vaccine in the last three weeks. that's what we're talking about. and i do expect us to be able to use johnson & johnson again, but nicolle, will there be damage done to the reputation and have people say to me no, doctor, i dent want it? it's highly likely. and i don't want the other people in the world to feel like they're second class citizens because they got this vaccine. this was a great vaccine. family members and patients of mine have gotten it, and i stand by it. but we need to watch to see how
the next week were to play out. >> we will stay on it with you. dr. kavita patel, thank you so much for spending some time with us today. up next, president biden is not the first president to announce sanctions against the government of vladimir putin, but his remarks today will represent a sharp contrast to the former guy. we'll preview them for you, next. ♪ it's grilled cheese time. ♪ ♪ yeah, it's time for grilled cheese. ♪ ♪ after we make grilled cheese, ♪ ♪ then we're eating grilled cheese. ♪ ♪ because it's time. ♪ ♪ yeah. ♪ ♪ time for grilled cheese. ♪
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russia just hours after making good on his promise to hold moscow accountable for a whole host of actions, including hacking federal agencies and election interference. the administration earlier today saying that the u.s. faces nothing short of a national emergency with respect to russi announcing sweeping sanctions and expelling ten kremlin diplomats. president joe biden is now the fourth president to announce sanctions against the government of vladimir putin. his remarks today likely to represent a dramatic break with the rhetoric of the last guy, who repeatedly refused to confront putin and took russia's side over his own intelligence community over and over and over again. joining our conversation about that, msnbc international affairs an li, the former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael mcfall, former obama campaign manager and msnbc political analyst david plouffe is here and my colleague, monica alba joins us. i apologize in advance if the president makes his way to the podium and we have to interrupt anyone but ambassador mcfall, i want to start with you.
we started the show with andrew weissmann who had, i think, been the mueller report was the vehicle by which most of the public first learned that donald trump's most senior campaign official, his chairman, paul manafort, had given super secret polling and targeting data to konstantin kilimnik. what andrew weissmann said is the treasury department language today and the sanctions against konstantin kilimnik closed the loop. we now know they went from the trump campaign's most senior official to russian intelligence and then were given to the kremlin. what do you make of that sort of mystery solved and what new questions do you have about it? >> well, first, i congratulate the biden administration for closing the loop, nicole. they are providing transparency about what happened during the trump era with respect to russian intervention in our elections, right? and transparency is part of what needs to be done and so i applaud that. number two, they are also trying to create a period to that era.
everything that happened today is about what putin did to the united states during the trump era, and very consciously, i think, the biden administration is trying to say, okay, you have to pay a price for that. solar winds, as you mentioned, the electoral interference, as you mentioned and now we're going to move forward. they didn't add sanctions about what's happening with mr. navalny, for instance, or what's happening with respect to ukraine. they're trying to put a, you know, an end to that era with these sanctions today. >> but, as you say, we are on the precipice of more conflict, potentially, not less. what do you make of russia's posture right now on the ukrainian border? >> well, i'm very nervous about it. it's the biggest build-up since 2014. putin is obviously putting a lot of pressure on the ukrainian government and the world. i mean, look at what's happening. the g7 issues a statement. nato issues a statement. president biden called putin a
couple days ago. already in some ways, he's achieved his objectives. my old colleague, bill burns, he's not going to speak on your show anymore these days because he's over at cia, but he used to call this in the obama administration, station identification. president putin is making clear that china's not the only power in the world today. >> you know, david plouffe, i want to ask you a political question that andrew weissmann and i started talking about at the end of this conversation about collusion being established between the highest level of the trump campaign and the highest levels of putin's government. do you want to know why that information didn't make its way from the united states intelligence agencies, which i guess arguably were the ones that had the intelligence on a russian intelligence official and the mueller investigation, which was housed inside the highest levels of the fbi, d.o.j.? >> of course. but nicole, you think, just that statement you made, if you saw it in "house of cards," you'd
turn off the tv and say, it's too unrealistic, right? what's shocking is we're waiting for joe biden to speak and it's still almost, you have to do a double take that a american president is going to step out and put the united states of america's interests first, not the russian federation's. and so, yeah, i think that this is appropriate, and in every way that matters to us, taking the coronavirus seriously and focusing on vaccinations, doing everything you can to strengthen and jump start the economy, holding adderer airs accountable when they hack our government and try and destroy our elections and let's not forget, to your point, this was all done so that vladimir putin's preferred candidate, donald trump, won the first time and would stay in office the second time. why? because in their wildest dreams, they never believed you could have an american official, much less an american president, basically at their service. which is what we saw for the last four years. so again, this will be another one where when i watch it, you're almost doing a double take.
i can't believe this sense of normalcy has been restored. >> monica, the white house is very disciplined about their message planning. they had this huge announcement about the end of the war in afghanistan yesterday. these big sanctions announced by treasury this morning, followed by a speech from the president today. what is sort of the white house push behind the scenes this week? >> yeah, nicole, we're really starting to see the president's foreign policy focus and priorities come into shape here, given afghanistan in the news yesterday, today, this speech on russia, and tomorrow, the president will have his first in-person meeting with a foreign leader when the prime minister of japan comes to the white house so we're starting to get a good sense of that. but you mentioned this and what is happening behind the scenes. it was quite notable to us, this speech here on russia was a late addition to the schedule this afternoon. this was not something that had been previewed by white house officials until the news of the sanctions and the response to that came out a couple of hours
ago. and we haven't really gotten as much of a preview as we normally do from the press secretary or others about exactly what the president is going to describe here. we expect him to go into detail about why he felt this response was necessary at the time, given the solarwinds hack, election interference, and then also these concerns over human rights abuses and particularly the treatment of alexey navalny, so we expect president biden to go into all of those but something else we're wondering about is the idea that the white house has extended an invitation to russian president putin to meet with president biden in a third country, a neutral location, perhaps sometime over the summer in europe. we know that that invitation has been extended. we don't know whether it has been accepted or not, and given the way that russia responded today to the sweeping sanctions, it's unclear whether they're going to want to do that and engage in this manner, at least in the short-term. but that's something the president is trying to navigate here and really thread the
needle of diplomacy while of course slapping them with these actions, nicole, so this is something we expect the president to talk about here just momentarily. >> and the president is about to begin. >> i spoke with president putin of russia about the nature of our relationship, the relationship between our two countries. and i was candid, respectful, conversation was candid and respectful. two great powers with significant responsibility for global stability. and president putin and i have had a significant responsibility to steward that relationship. i take that responsibility very seriously, as i'm sure he does. russia and americans are both proud and patriotic people, and i believe the russian people, like the american people, are invested in peaceful and secure future of our world. during the campaign for the presidency, i was unequivocal that if i was elected president,
i'd respond to any attempt to influence our elections, the last election, and because elections are sacred. they're sovereign undertakings and are an expression of the will of the american people and we cannot allow a foreign power to interfere in our democratic process with impunity, and i told them if it turned out that the -- as i thought, that there was engagement in our elections, that i would -- i would respond. later, during the transition, as we learned more about the solarwinds cyber intrusion, i made clear that i would respond once we determined who had, in fact, conducted a hack on the scope and scale that occurred. when president putin called me in january, after i was sworn in, to congratulate me, i told him that my administration would be looking very carefully now that we had access to all the data and at the issues that to assess russia's role and then determine what response we would
make. when we spoke again this week, i told him that we would shortly be responding in a measured and proportionate way because we had concluded that they had interfered in the election and solarwinds was totally inappropriate. today, i approved several steps, including expulsion of several russian officials as a consequence of their actions. i've also signed an executive order authorizing new measures, including sanctions to address specific harmful actions that russia has taken against u.s. interests. i was clear with president putin that we could have gone further, but i chose not to do so. i chose to be proportionate. the united states is not looking to kick off a cycle of escalation and conflict with russia. we want a stable, predictable relationship. if russia continues to interfere with our democracy, i'm prepared to take further actions to respond. it is my responsibility as president of the united states to do so, but throughout our
long history of competition, our two countries have been able to find ways to manage tensions and to keep them from escalating out of control. they're also areas where russia and the united states can and should work together. for example, in the early stages of my administration, we were able to move quickly to extend for five years the new start treaty and maintain that key element of nuclear stability between our nations. that was in the interest of the united states, of russia, and quite frankly, of the world. and we got it done. when i spoke to president putin, i expressed my belief that communication between the two of us personally and directly was to be essential in moving forward to a more effective relationship, and he agreed on that point. to that end, i propose that we meet in person this summer in europe for a summit to address a range of issues facing both of our countries. our teams are discussing that possibility right now.
and out of that summit, were it to occur, and i believe it will, the united states and russia could launch a strategic stability dialogue to pursue cooperation in arms control and security. we can address critical global challenges that require russia and the united states to work together, including reining in nuclear threats from iran and north korea, ending this pandemic globally, and meeting the existential crisis of climate change. i also made clear to president putin that the united states is unwavering in our support of our allies and partners in europe. in that vein, i expressed concern about russia's military build-up on ukraine's border and in occupied crimea. i affirmed u.s. support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of ukraine, and i strongly urged him to refrain from any military action. now is the time to de-escalate. the way forward is through
thoughtful dialogue and diplomatic process. the u.s. is prepared to continue constructively to move forward in that process. my bottom line is this. where there's an interest in the united states to work with russia, we should and we will. where russia seeks to violate the interests of the united states, we will respond. we will always stand in defense of our country, our institutions, our people, and our allies. thank you very much for your time. >> mr. president, did president putin give you any indication in that call that he is willing to change his behavior? >> we indicated we would talk about it. i laid out, as i said, very simply, i told -- i said during the campaign, i said when he called to congratulate me on being elected, i said subsequent to that this last conversation that if it turned out that he
was engaged in the activities that he had been accused of in cybersecurity and solarwinds that i would respond in kind. i urged him to respond appropriately, not to exceed it because we can move as well. my hope and expectation is we will be able to work out a modus vivendi but it's important that we have direct talks and we continue to be in contact with one another. thank you. >> mr. president, do you expect -- >> thank you. >> pardon me? north stream 2 is a complicated issue affecting our allies in europe. i have been opposed to north steam 2 for a long time, from the beginning, when i was -- even when i was out of office and even before i left office as vice president. but that still is an issue that is in play. thank you very much.
>> we have been watching. we've been watching president biden's remarks after the u.s. government he leads has imposed sweeping new sanctions against 32 russian entities and individuals. that includes russian intelligence officer konstantin kilimnik, accused by the biden administration of providing polling data to russian intelligence services they received from trump campaign chairman paul manafort. watching along with us, msnbc international affairs analyst the former u.s. ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul. also joining us, matt miller, and msnbc justice and security analyst, and julian barnes is here, "new york times" national security reporter. julian, you've been covering the intelligence community long enough to maybe help us get at this. has the intelligence community known all along and kept quiet about this closed circle between donald trump's campaign, chairman paul manafort,
konstantin kilimnik, who's named in the mueller report and what the treasury department today accused them of, which is giving the trump campaign data to the russian intelligence agencies, establishing collusion for the first time? >> well, you know, kilimnik has been mentioned in the mueller report. he's been mentioned in the bipartisan senate report. and a lot of details about his ties, the data that he gave to the trump campaign came out in those documents. where did that information come from? it was gathered by u.s. intelligence, right? and so, they provided that information. it came out first or most prominently through those two -- the senate report, the mueller report, but we've known more about kilimnik in recent months, right, the most recent interference report detailed -- and involved in the 2020 election. we get a picture of a guy who's being used by russian intelligence from 2016 through to 2020.
and so, as time has gone on, we have indeed gotten more information, so it's no surprise that he got sanctioned here today. he's been deeply involved, not just in 2016 but also in 2020. >> and it's just remarkable, matt miller, to see what passes as such a dramatic turn. everyone has been describing the u.s.-russia relationship as one that may be most transformed by the change from the trump era to the biden presidency. the president today making clear that he will hold russia accountable for the election interference, the disinformation campaigns, and the hack. just talk about not just the substance of these sanctions but the change in this relationship. >> you know, it is so refreshing to see a president that will stand up for america. i mean, it's something that we ought to be able to take for granted but for four years, we couldn't. because it's not like the trump
administration didn't enact sanctions or didn't try to punish the russian government in some way. they did. they enacted multiple sanctions, expelled intelligence officers from the united states, but every time they took an action against the russian government, the then-president, donald trump, would come out afterwards and undermine it in public by either defending vladimir putin or excusing his behavior or sometimes contradicting his own intelligence analysts. so, today, to see the president standing up to russia in public, making clear he did so in private too, and doing so with a comprehensive policy. let's not forget it's not just the sanctions but administration officials made clear there are other private, presumably covert activities they're taking too that we, of course, don't know about. it's a comprehensive policy working with our allies to try to deter russian malign activities across the board. it is the -- and i think the most important thing the president said today is, look, we don't -- we want this to end. it's not in our interest and it's not in russia's interest to have this endless cycle of
escalation, and so we could have taken stronger actions. we didn't. but if russia keeps interfering in our actions, if they keep threatening their neighbors, if they keep punishing dissidents and reporters, we have other tools in our toolbox and he won't be afraid to use them. >> on that end, ambassador mcfaul, he specifically called for de-escalation, the situation in ukraine. how is russia likely to respond? >> to matt's point, it was very clear there was a mixed message the president was trying to communicate, not just to us but to vladimir putin. on the one hand, times have changed. you're not going to have this disconnect between a president and the rest of his administration vis-a-vis vladimir putin. that era is over. but he's also signaling, as you just said, de-escalation was a word he used. proportion was a word he used because he wants to put an end to this period and have things stabilize, including in ukraine.
and now ball's in putin's court. now we'll have to wait and see how he responds. my prediction is that initially he's going to respond positively because he's going to want to have that meeting. he's going to want to have that summit. i hope it's not in helsinki, by the way. i don't want to go back to helsinki. i don't know if you remember that but that's when president trump said it would be a great idea to hand me over to mr. putin. so, please, no helsinki repeats. but that, i think, was a very effective diplomatic move on behalf of president biden and his team to help possibly get into a more stable, predictable, bilateral relationship but none of this happy talk anymore. that era is over. >> well, and julian, your byline is on reporting in "the new york times" this week about the testimony from the top intelligence chiefs and the assessment about russia calls for de-escalation. if it goes in the other direction, we will be nothing short of in a crisis with that country.
talk about what the intelligence chiefs testified to this week about russia's posture on the border of ukraine. >> yeah, so, they've talked about how they've been tracking this troop build-up since the end of march. there was a military exercise that was supposed to end and the troops were supposed to go home. they didn't. they stayed there. now, unlike 2014 where there were steps to sort of mask and hide what russia was doing, this has been pretty open. they've built up these troops. they've wanted to be seen. so, some in the intelligence agencies see this as a signal that it's a pressure tactic on the united states, a pressure tactic, of course, on ukraine, but you know, william burns testified this week that the -- so there are capable of an incursion, and so that the intelligence community could not rule that out, and that's why this situation is so dangerous
and could be a return to an escalated state of violence. >> so, pull back the curtain for me, ambassador mcfaul, and tell me what the turn who has a role like what you had is saying behind the scenes. is it a tougher message than what we heard from the president today? >> well, yes and no. i do think they are rolling out a strategy, right, not just a tit for tat, but they want to have a comprehensive strategy for how to deal with russia. i think it was very wise to call president putin ahead of time to give him a readout of what's coming. i think it was wise to say they should meet together. i personally don't think it was necessary to have a summit. i think you could have done that as a pull aside, so if i were advising president biden, i would have said, just do that on the sidelines. that will create a -- a summit, remember what that does. we all fly to geneva or vienna and we look for tea leaves and there's not going to be any
deliverables so i would have downplayed it. but the other thing is, they are firm in their response. remember the expulsions, too, nicole. these aren't diplomats. these were russian intelligence officers. that's not just deterrence. that's disruption of what they do here in the united states. that is important. they are sending a strong signal that it's not going to be business as usual. but we're going to cooperate when we can, as the president just said. >> well, and matt, i want to come back to your use of the word refreshing. i think it's chilling to see what they're doing here in the first 100 days and to think about what was done over the last four years. i mean, are you -- do we know everything that -- do you think we know everything that transpired? i know greg miller, "the washington post," has reported on five putin-trump meetings for which there were no notes. julian's -- and his colleagues have done an extraordinary body of reporting on all the unanswered questions. do you think that the truth will emerge about the true nature of
the relationship between russia and the last administration? >> i think we'll have bits and pieces of it that will emerge in the same way today we found out this -- one of these biggest open questions from the mueller report, what did konstantin kilimnik do with that polling data? we found out he gave it to the russian government. we'll get dribs and drabs that will come out but i suspect we'll never know the full picture. not only were there meetings for which there were no notes. there was one meeting in which the interpreter was ordered to hand over her notes, not to -- to not keep them. so, some of those pieces, you know, we may hear from that interpreter at some point. i doubt before congress but you may just see leaks and reports of what actually happened but we'll never know the full story in the same way we'll never know the full story about konstantin kilimnik because we're never going to know what donald trump knew about that. he never sat down for an interview. roger stone never sat down and when paul manafort did, he lied about i. i think we'll get little pieces but i doubt we'll ever know the entire picture. >> ambassador michael mcfaul,
thank you for being on with us watching the speech with us and sticking around afterwards. we're grateful. matthew miller and julian barnes are staying with us because when we return, it is the eve of the 100-day mark after the capitol riot. the house hearing damning testimony today about the failures of the response to that riot. plus, the growing legal problems facing congressman matt gaetz and the republican party refusing to take action on the allegations as they pile up against him. and she may be the biggest threat to republican efforts to suppress the vote. no wonder the right is going berserk and trying and failing to smear her. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. tinues after a quick break. don't go awhnyere. [sfx: thunder rumbles] [sfx: rainstorm]
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a look at the capitol on the eve of the 100-day mark since the deadly insurrection at the u.s. capitol which laid bare the virtually unchecked threat posed by the violent extremists and radicalized supporters incited by donald trump and enabled by his allies in the gop. and what could be an alarming indication of the efforts to tamp down radicalization and prevent a january 6th style attack from happening again, we're now staring down 100 days without a 9/11 style commission being established to study the security failures that led to lives lost on that day. it's a reality house speaker nancy pelosi today blamed on republicans, suggesting they're reviving donald trump's old talking points about antifa and black lives matter protesters to avoid confronting the threat posed by maga extremists. watch. >> it's not about reviewing the elections. it's not about examining black
lives matter. it's about what happened on january 6th. and how we can prevent it from happening again. but i'm optimistic, because quite frankly, we have to have a commission in my view, and we have to find the truth. >> today, a small house committee, nine members in all, met to address a damning watchdog report first reported on by "the new york times" on the significant lapses and miscalculations that led to the failure of police to contain the historic domestic threat, citing intelligence that established prior to the attack, quote, congress itself is the target on the 6th. the two protests expected to be the largest of the day may draw thousands of participants and both have been promoted by president trump himself. this combined with stop the sale's propensity to attract white supremacists, militia members, and others who actively promote violence may lead to a significantly dangerous
situation for law enforcement and the general public alike. in today's hearing with capitol police inspector general michael bolton, who was behind that watchdog report that exposed that intelligence, house administration committee chairperson zoe lofgrin underscored the grave consequences of the security lapse. >> officers lost their lives as a result of this horrific attack. scores more, not just from the capitol police, but other responding agencies, suffered grievous injuries. for example, officers were viciously beaten with flag poles, including some displaying blue lives matter flags and the american flag. they were assaulted with powerful bear spray and other chemicals. an officer was crushed in a heavy door as he was attacked. an officer who was beaten so badly she lost consciousness. another officer lost an eye. another lost fingers.
another officer had his own taser used against him to the point that he suffered a heart attack. the january 6th attack was a horrific, traumatic event for everyone who was present, their families, and loved ones and those who witnessed it for the whole country. >> joining our conversation, democratic congresswoman abigail spamberger of virginia, a former cia officer and now a member of the foreign affairs committee. matt miller and julian barpz are barnes are with us. congresswoman, just listening to the mutilation and beating and abuse of the capitol police at the hands of trump supporters who were there for his event, walked down to the capitol with their eyes set on congress and all of you, it feels like more than a failure. it just feels like a disgrace that no commission has been established to look at this. do you share the speaker's optimism that one will be? >> we have to put one in place,
and i think even to give additional context to that day, to remind everyone of the severity of what was happening, we, members of congress, were in session that day to acknowledge the results of the november 2020 election. we were doing our constitutional duty on the day that the capitol was attacked, and i was in the house chamber when the attack occurred. evacuated out and when we were evacuated out, it was past the protesters who were thrown on the ground, hours into the attack once the police officers were able to gain control of the situation. but the beatings, what we've now seen from video footage, the barbaric nature of this event on the day that we were performing a constitutional duty, it was an attack on our very democracy, and we absolutely need a commission to understand what happened and also to understand the weaknesses here at the
capitol that put our capitol police officers in such a perilous circumstance and our democracy itself. >> you served in the cia and i wonder, as you watch our intelligence agencies reorient themselves to really focus in on what christopher wray testified to over the summer while trump was still there as the greatest threat to the homeland and that's domestic violent extremists here in the country. can you just talk about that shift in orientation from threats abroad to threats at least in the case of the insurrection, proudly aligned not just with one party but with its former leader, donald trump? >> well, on the ground, i think that for quite some time, we've been seeing the startling challenges of growing conspiracy theories, a willingness to just dismiss actual facts and align with whole conspiracies that are destabilizing from a larger standpoint in terms of, you
know, the function of our government. the importance of regular civic society. and to see the intelligence community, to see particularly the fbi and director wray talk about the challenges that we as a nation face, and be wide-eyed because from my background as a former cia case officer, the number one thing you had to do was be wide-eyed and clear-eyed on the threats that were posed because the only way that you can address them is by understanding the scope and the potential severity of the threats that we as a nation face, be it international terrorism, be it threats of domestic terrorism. so, i'm appreciative of the significant work of our law enforcement officials, our fbi agents, and our intelligence community writ large in their efforts to truly understand the threats that exist at home and abroad so that we as lawmakers can be part of moving forward to contend with them. >> you know, i worked for george w. bush on 9/11 and he went to a
mosque right after 9/11 to make clear that in holding those accountable, it would have nothing to do with the muslim faith, that it would be a response to the terrorists themselves. you look at how republicans and right-wing media have responded to the insurrection, and they can't go so far as to say, the insurrectionists are bad. republican party is for a whole bunch of good stuff. they've taken the opposite approach of that. they've broadened the tent to say the insurrectionists are us, we are them. ron johnson has called them lively and friendly. tucker carlson has gone out of his way to defend various aspects of what that group at the capitol on january 6th did. from a dbe perspective, how dangerous is that, trying to separate out the ones that represent a threat? >> normalizing domestic violent extremists is horrifically dangerous. and as someone who was in the
house chamber on the day of that attack, as our capitol police officers who were there with us were stacking up tables and benches and screaming at protesters to get back, guns drawn, screaming at us to get down on the ground because they were worried we might be impacted if they did need to fire their weapons, we were there when a capitol police officer did indeed fire on the crowd that was trying to come in. so, this threat was real and we've seen the images of police officers being beaten, being beaten by american flags. so, i think that any american who values our democracy, who values the very foundation of our democracy should be resolute in denouncing that anyone who would violently beat police officers, break through the windows of the united states capitol, and attempt to stop the
united states congress from recognizing the results of an election just because they don't like those results, they should be roundly denounced across the board without any consternation and the fact that we see exactly that consternation, i think, is deeply dangerous because what happened on january 6th was one event but it's part of a trend where we see people creating a reality in which they want to live, not being willing to recognize the truth. and those conspiracies are problematic because they create fertile ground for the people who want to go that next step, for the domestic violent extremists who on the fertile ground that is fertile because of conspiracy theories, that is people are disoriented because what is up, what is down, they are then able to take hold and through hate, through anti-democratic values and a focus, they can perpetuate the type of attack that we saw on january 6th.
so any person with any sort of voice in our community and our government should be denouncing the absolute abuses and violence that we saw on that day. >> do you have private conversations with republicans who understand what you just explained? i mean, are they just publicly afraid of the republican base but privately acknowledge what you just articulated? >> i think it's a shift. i think there's people kind of across the spectrum. i think there are some who have been, you know, well, each way, right, when the election first happened and people were disappointed, well, my voters aren't happy with the results, so i'm going to wait until the states certify and then the states certify. well, i'm not going to recognize joe biden because i'm going to wait until the electoral college votes. okay, now the electoral college votes. well, my voters are still -- my base is still unhappy. i'll wait until january 6th, when congress acknowledges it, and so each place along the
line, when i think people had the real ability to say, you know, hey, guys, i'm sorry. the person i wanted to win didn't win. i'm disappointed. the other guy won. but that's our democracy. so many people didn't demonstrate that level of leadership, and i think that contributed significantly to the fact that people bought into this big lie, because no one told them it wasn't a lie or that -- no one told them that it wasn't true and that it was a lie. so at this point, i think the more vocal that my colleagues certainly across the board, but certainly across the aisle on the republican side, the railroad vocal they can be in acknowledging this big lie, it's incredibly important to the safety of our democracy, and some people just want to focus forward, but there has to be discussion of what went wrong and how allowing this lie to permeate among our constituents led to the devastating and deadly attack that we witnessed on january 6th.
>> 100 days from tomorrow. thank you, congresswoman abigail spanberger for spending time with us. it's a pleasure. we're really grateful. matt miller and julian barnes are still here. julian, i want to ask you about something the congresswoman said about a counterextremism approach. i mean, to listen to the intel chiefs and to see christopher wray have someone to corroborate what he's now been saying publicly since, i think, august about the largest threat being domestic terrorism and in that bucket, i think, was the word he used, white supremacist aligned domestic terrorists, i wonder if you can sort of pull that thread a little harder on what she's saying, that to counter extremist threat with one of the two major political parties sort of shrugging their shoulders is an added challenge. >> yeah. i mean, we saw that challenge today when the intelligence
chiefs appeared before the house intelligence committee. there, the republicans were asking a lot of questions of wray about antifa, and then they started raising some sharp questions about the dni, the director of national intelligence's work on the report on domestic violent extremismism. out of context, they're legitimate questions. should the cia spy on americans? we can all agree that the cia shouldn't do that but it was making it very difficult about should the dni look at this really growing threat? and you can tell that the republicans are going to make this conversation very difficult. >> so, along those lines, i have the sound that julian's talking about. matt miller, this is -- this is
congressman markwayne mullin from oklahoma accusing the fbi of not taking the portland attack seriously enough. watch. >> knowing that antifa was behind that, yet you said in a statement that antifa does not exist as a national organization. are you trying to explain away antifa and their definition or do you believe antifa actually exists? >> no, sir, antifa is a real thing. it is not a fiction. and we take it extremely seriously. >> why -- this is your quote. antifa does not exist as a national organization. that's your quote. >> i don't believe that's a direct quote from me. >> so you do believe antifa exists? >> i have consistently said antifa exists. it's a real thing, not a fiction. >> so you're using your resources to identify antifa and go after them? >> yes, sir. >> i'm not sure what the purpose of that is. i can guess. but matt miller, the strategy on the right is clear and julian articulated it pretty well to try to muddy these up.
but antifa did not attack the capitol on the 6th, and the homeland security department law enforcement issued a warning of a potential for violent extremism and the adherence to the sort of ideologies that they were worried about were worried about covid restrictions and the big lie. >> yeah. look, i think the congressman was very -- congresswoman was very diplomatic, saying that it was a challenge for the executive branch to address this problem when you had one political party who was either looking the other way or actively encouraging it. i think it's more than a challenge. i think it's almost impossible. the republican party won't get serious about this because that is still their base. that was the base of the republican party as it is currently constituted that was at the capitol on january 6th, fomenting that insurrection. and so, as long as the republican party cannot deal with the demons that have captured it and the demons that are driving -- still driving the energy of that party, it is going to be, you know, almost
impossible for the executive branch to address it in any serious way. the fbi and the rest of the government cannot be out trying to kind of slow the spread of radical right-wing extremism at the same time as one of only two political parties in the united states is out encouraging it. encouraging it all the time, encouraging it, making excuses for it. as you said, ron johnson making excuses at a congressional hearing. as long as they're getting that kind of air cover from members of congress, those on the right, i think the efforts to really kind of take it on in a serious way by the administration and the executive branch face very long odds. >> the demons, wow. what a word. my stomach sank when you said that. matt miller, julian barnes, i know we kept you longer than we said we would. grateful for your patience. thank you so much. up next for us, with every new development in the matt gaetz investigation, it gets
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cryptic at the time but it makes a lot more sense now in light of new reporting in "the new york times" that says that greenberg has been cooperating with federal investigators since last year. from that "new york times" report, quote, joel greenberg, a one-time county tax collector, disclosed to investigators that he and mr. gaetz had encounters with women they were giving cash or gifts in exchange for sex. nbc has not independently confirmed the "times" report and gaetz has denied ever paying for sex. the issue now unavoidable for the house gop since gaetz sits on the house judiciary committee which oversees the very department that is investigating him now. minority leader kevin mccarthy saying today, he has no problem with that. >> matt gaetz is the same as any american. he's innocent until proven guilty. there's no charges against him yet. if a charge comes forward, that would be dealt with at that time. >> joining our conversation, "new york times" justice department reporter katie better, whose byline is on that article we quoted and former
republican congressman david jolly. katie, this felt like maybe something obvious to you guys who are close to these investigations or to kind of people in that world, but it seemed like a jaw-dropper that matt gaetz has actually been investigated with the help of his former wingman, joel greenberg, who flipped on him or at least cooperated with investigators last year. explain how that works. >> sure. so, once investigators had joel greenberg sort of in their sights, they had indicted him multiple times, greenberg understood that he was going to jail for a long time should he be found guilty on even some of the charges. he was so bold that when he was out on bail, he continued to commit crimes and he was accused of defrauding the emergency lending program created to address the pandemic for small businesses. so, when he realized that he was in big trouble, he started to cooperate then and give investigators information as long ago as late last year about matt gaetz, realizing they were just as interested, if not more
interested, in the congressman. >> you know, david, matt gaetz is this very trumpian character for whom reporting like katie's is shocking but not surprising. just talk about matt gaetz, sort of the florida -- that floridians know about matt gaetz. >> i'll keep it brief, nicole. i think anybody who knew matt gaetz in florida and watched him serve, you knew that eventually matt would find scandal or scandal would find matt. in this case, what makes it not humorous is that this could involve a child victim if indeed what has been alleged that is being investigated that there was a 17-year-old child that apparently was a victim of a commercial sex act. and so, this is very serious. look, kevin mccarthy today could have taken the step of at least suspended -- suspending matt gaetz from any jurisdiction over
the department of justice while this investigation's going on. he has not. but nicole, i'll tell you, in florida, this story continues to spread and it is ensnaring some of matt's former colleagues in the state house. there are now two former legislators, one who has been terminated or resigned from his lobbying position, another who has left state agency recently and there's a lot of focus on a big financial donor with an interest in the medical marijuana industry that matt has championed and he is the donor at the center of this trip to the bahamas, who apparently financed this trip and the interesting thing about this trip to the bahamas is matt continues to insist he did not have sex with a 17-year-old. well, the trip to the bahamas, even if they were 18, you get into a paid escort across state lines, across country lines that now begins to bring in other federal statutes as well. matt can deny anything he wants, but this is likely headed toward an indictment or a resignation
despite his protestations. >> you know, and david, i feel like it falls to us to explain just how bad the republican party is. when you look at the gaetz story, it's so bad that when katie and her colleagues reported that a pardon was sought on gaetz's part from the trump white house, they would have nothing to do with it. talk about, you know, what mccarthy is doing is he's going below where trump was willing to go in defending gaetz. >> yeah, he certainly is. and to your point on florida, nicole, in the last week, i've had one former legislator kind of laughing that matt's finally getting his due. i've had a lobbyist text me and say, boy, i'm glad i wasn't hanging out with those guys that night. al tallahassee is a swampy small town like a lot of state capitals are. you would expect more from the politics get elevated to washington but we're learning that type of moral standard does not exist inside the beltway either, at least not from kevin mccarthy. and the intriguing thing about this is, i think kevin mccarthy is protecting matt, not to
protect matt. nobody really likes matt. leadership doesn't like matt. kevin mccarthy is trying to protect the republican brand that is today the trumpism brand that is today, and the interesting thing for democrats right now, instead of putting the screws on matt gaetz, put them on kevin mccarthy. expect more of the republican leader in this moment than what we're getting. >> right. and someone accused of sex trafficking a child. david jolly, thank you so much. for being part of this swampy conversation about florida. katie benner is sticking around. when we return, the biden administration's not so secret weapon in the fight against voter suppression. how kristen clark plans to tackle voter restriction laws and why the right wing is going berserk about it. that's next. s going berserk about it that's next. my grandfather had an amazing life, but ancestry showed me so much more than i could have imagined. my grandfather was born in a shack in pennsylvania, his father was a miner, they were immigrants from italy and somewhere along the way that man changed his name and transformed himself into a
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earnest. republican lawmakers have coalesced with their allies in right-wing media in targeting kristen clark. she's president joe biden's nominee to lead the justice department civil rights division. since january, right-wing voices have sought to cast clark as a left-wing radical. even yesterday at her confirmation hearing she was accused of being anti-semitic and a champion of cop killers, that's despite support from the jewish council and current police chiefs. "the new york times" editorial board lays it out like this. the real reason some conservatives want to take down ms. clark is that she's been an effective champion of voting rights for black, brown, and poor people. that's why she was nominated and that's why people like tucker carlson are grasping at straws to tank her nomination with lies. joining our conversation is mara gaye, katie benner is still here. mara, the right wing has taken
this weird step in doing what i think ashley parker first coined, the quiet parts out loud. they're now smearing and trying to scandalize an incredibly competent and impressive nominee as an extense of their effort to sort of not have any obstacles in their campaign to suppress voting rights. >> that's right, nicole. you know, what they've actually been doing is using a pretty impressive juggernaut of right-wing media that has compiled. it started with fox news, but it's much broader than that now. and they're using each news cycle to not only go after, you know, democrats in general, but the way that they have been doing that is by engaging with the culture wars and fighting them by turning, particularly black people, gay people, transgender people, sometimes
jewish people into punching bags and kind of totems for their cause. it's really disgusting. it's dehumanizing. and in addition to that, of course, we have a situation here where kristen clark is absolutely qualified for this for this job. in any other era this would be -- you know, this would just be a slam dunk, and i just think it's demoralizing all the way down. from the perspective of bipartisanship, forget it. there is no, i think, dual commitment by both parties at this point to democracy, and we see that again in this nomination. but also from the perspective of i'm a journalist but i'm also a black woman in america, and i have eyes. we have seen this over and over again. whether it's the death of a child who is killed by police officers in front of our eyes, who is then, you know, reported on by the right wing media as though he's no angel, et cetera,
et cetera, or whether it's a nominee at the highest levels of government, you know, the right wing media at this point is -- it seems dedicated to, instead of actually focussing on policy, to actually using americans who are non-white or non-normative to advance their cause in dehumanize them. we all know who they're talking to. it is the most base parts of the country. and, frankly, it's sad because i think most americans are good people. but we're not appealing to their better angels here, as barack obama once side. this is the exact opposite. it's really got to stop. >> well, they might have met their match. let me show you some of the confirmation hearing with kristin clark and john cornan. >> well, maybe there is a misprint that i'm sure you can
clear it up for me dating back to your days when -- in school when you seemed to argue that african-americans were genetically superior to caucasians; is that correct? >> no, senator. i believe you're referring to an op-ed that i wrote at the age of 19 about the bell curve theory, a racist book that equated dna with genetics and race. this opened with a satirical reference to the statement that you just noted, contemporaneous reporting by the campus paper made very clear that was not a view that i espoused. i was seeking to do was to hold up a mirror and put one racist theory alongside another to challenge people as to why we were unwilling to wholly reject the racist theory that defined
the bell curve book. >> so this was satire? >> absolutely, senator. >> katie, i was waiting for him to maybe google satire definition. but this is a very prepared and accomplished nominee. i think we covered the campaign against her, but you have a story about her today. she certainly seems headed to clear this hurdle and most likely be in one of the most important jobs in the -- not just in the justice department but not government. >> certainly in the biden administration because the president has made clear that he wants civil rights to be one of his top priorities, especially against the backdrop of police shootings of unarmed black people and a rise in hatred and hate crimes against asian americans. if we look at her record, you see a person that grew up in the projects of brooklyn who went to a prestigious private secondary
school in the nation. she's extraordinarily well-qualified, but she has made a reputation as one of the foremost civil rights and foremost voting rights lawyers in the country. she argued shelby versus holer at the district level. she was one of the lawyers who helped win at the district level to preserve a key points of the voter rights act. ultimately the supreme court shot it down. she would other parts of this voting rights act, including section 2, which says it is not legal to have a voting law that has a discriminatory effect basically to try to beat back some of the laws happening all around the country. we know she has expertise in it. we also know that this is not necessarily new for republicans to push back on having a civil rights leader head the civil rights division of the justice department. not since tom perez has there
been a confirmed, a senate-confirmed leader of the civil rights division. that's the last time a democratic president has had a senate confirmed civil rights leader. so that is why other leaders were acting. so if the senate could hold together, if she can hold centrics at their core, she will be confirmed which would make her the first woman to lead the civil rights division and the first woman of color to lead the civil rights division as a confirmed leader, so it would be a really big deal. >> we'll stay on it with you. thank you for spending some time with us. when we return, as we do every day, we will remember lives well-lived. the bowls are back. applebee's irresist-a-bowls all just $8.99.
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natural, effortless goodness. after his years serving honorably in the army, he started a successful business career that his daughter told us william developed an aching desire to do more to give back. so he started a community nonprofit focussed on social issues. he rented vans that allowed families to visit their loved ones in the prison system. he helped people get out to vote, and he shined a spotlight on others, working to improve the community. the respect and adoration he received was, above all else, well earned. he raised a wonderful family and cheered on his beloved buffalo bills every sunday. and these should have been his golden years. but two months ago, william peoples jr. died from complications of covid-19. he devoted his life to his family and to his community, and we are thinking about them this afternoon. thank you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times.
we're grateful. "the beat" starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicole. thank you so much. i want to welcome everyone to "the beat." this is a major news day and we have a packed show. there is a bombshell on the trump-russia collusion conspiracy. the campaign manager more involved than previously thought in stuff that went all the way to the kremlin. it's coming out in part because president biden is slapping new sanctions on russia, dropping the hammer on putin. the republican leader facing questions about this ongoing scandal engulfing matt gaetz amidst a doj sex crime probe. we begin with our top story that involves these two important and developing situations in minnesota. former officer kim potter charged with manslaughter in the killed of a 20-year-old. she made her first court appearance today. this is moving swiftly. meanwhile, the