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tv   Morning Joe  MSNBC  April 13, 2021 3:00am-6:00am PDT

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be able to pulled over for expired license plate tags without being afraid. and yet daunte wright was so afraid, he called his mother to held her what was happening. we have got to do something to fix this. thank you for getting up way too early with us on this tuesday morning. don't go anywhere. "morning joe" starts right now. >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, april 13th. along with joe, willie and me, we have pulitzer prize-winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson. for the second night in a row, violent protests gripped a minneapolis suburbs in the wake of sunday night's deadly shooting. police in brooklyn center used tear gas on unruly protesters after they set off fireworks and hurled objects at officers on the scene.
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according to the minnesota state patrol, some officers suffered minor injuries. at least 40 arrests were made overnight, as reports of looting in the area remained limited. two armored law enforcement vehicles were rolled out to subdue the crowds that were out past the 7:00 p.m. curfew. they tried to put a curfew, people stayed out. more than 1,000 minnesota national guard troops were also deployed to the area. willie? >> let's go right to minneapolis, bring in morgan chefski. morgan, good morning. what are you seeing out there? >> reporter: good morning. we are here in brooklyn, about 200 yards from that police station where hundreds of people gathered last night. and we witnessed ourselves as police and national guard moved politic by block, dispersing that crowd with tear gas, with rubber bullets, doing whatever they could to try to get those people out of the way that were causing so much havoc here for
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the past two nights. we're standing in front of a strip mall that was damaged the first fright following the death of dante wright. and we're back here today to give you a glimpse of what happened last night. this is a dollar tree store and we watched as people from that massive group broke these windows, got inside, and laid absolutely waste to the building. if you can look up at the ceiling, a water main has busted, flooding the interior of this store. and it was essentially a free for all for hours last night as police inched their way towards this area, clearing that seat by the police station. this allowed hundreds to come in here, grab whatever they could, and run off into the night. we had a chance to hear from police. about 40 people were arrested last night that were taking part in looting similar to this. and this is all following the tragic death of 20-year-old daunte wright, which happened here in brooklyn center on a sunday afternoon, when he was pulled over for expired tags.
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and then a police officer that's now been identified as kim potter, a 26-year veteran of the force, pulled out her service weapon, said taser, taser, taser before firing what is now known to be the fatal shot that killed that 20-year-old, who died a short time later. at this point in time, we know that the minnesota state court of criminal apprehension is investigating this case right now. we do know that the police chief has said that after reviewing this video evidence, they do believe that this was an accidental shooting. we had a chance to hear directly from the mother of daunte wright yesterday at a vigil for her son. she's saying that it's unconscionable that she could have lost her boy to an accident and she's encouraging everyone, though, to mourn his loss, but please don't do damage to this community. we'll send it back to you. >> nbc's morgan chesky in brooklyn center, minnesota, one of the inner suburbs of minneapolis. morgan, thanks so much. so here's what we know about the shooting this morning.
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the brooklyn center police department has released body camera footage showing the moment 20-year-old daunte wright was shot and killed. police say he was pulled over for expired tags, when police discovered he had a warrant out for his arrest. we want to warn you this morning before we show that footage, it is upsetting, it is graphic. you may want to take a moment, look away from the tv if you feel like you need to. but here's exactly what happened when police tried to take wright into custody. >> i'll taze you! i'll taze you! taser, taser, taser! oh, [ bleep ] i shot him! >> oh, wow. >> yes! >> you hear the officer there say, i just shot him. at a news conference yesterday,
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tim gannon says he believes the shooting was accidental. >> for informational purposes, we train with our handguns on our dominant side and our taser on our weak side. so if you're right-handed, you carry your firearm on your right side and your taser on the left. this is done purposefully and is trained. as i watched the video and listen to the officer's commands, it is my belief that the officer had the intention to deploy their taser, but instead shot mr. right with a single bullet. this appears to me, from what i view it and the officer's reaction and distress immediately after, that this was an accidental discharge that resulted in the tragic death of mr. wright. >> the officer who discharged her firearm shot mr. wright has been identified as kim potter, a 26-year veteran of the brooklyn center police department. she has been placed on standard administrative leave for now. an autopsy report confirms wright died of a gunshot wound to the chest, listing his manner
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of death as homicide. so, joe, the first blush here from the police department and from the chief is that this was an accidental shooting. we can get into this with some of our experts, but as he himself just said, there's a reason that the taser is placed on the non-dominant side of an officer's belt and that the firearm, the service weapon, is placed dominant side. the color is different, the weight is different, all of those things, anticipating a moment like this, so the officer wouldn't reach for the wrong weapon. >> and unfortunately, "the new york times" has pointed out this morning this has happened before, all too often. let's bring in right now former member of president obama's task force, on 21st century policing, cedric alexander. he's a former public safety director of dekalb county in georgia. cedric, as always, we appreciate you being with us today. the tragedy, it's a tragedy
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anytime, any place, anywhere. but the timing of this was especially terrible, especially in the minneapolis area. what can you tell us about the videotape? you look at the videotape. what are your conclusions? >> well, it's an unfortunate event. and i think the investigation itself is going to determine, and certainly give the public, all of us, a better idea of what took place at that moment and that time. of course, we know what we saw. and what we observed during that moment. but however, that officer, how she could confuse the two weapons, maybe under a great deal of stress this that moment, i don't know. but she's going to have to be able to make justifications. and certainly, the timing of it, the location, being right there in the epicenter of the george floyd trial, makes it more challenging, but even makes it
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more challenging than that, joe, mika, willie, is the fact that, if you look across this country, relationships between police and the community is very strained. we go from one incident to another incident to another incident that particularly involve people of color. and we cannot dismiss it, we cannot minimize it, it is not a white or black issue for just black people to be concerned about. it is an american issue that we have to confront. because this is unexplainable, it's unacceptable, and whatever was going through that officer's mind when she pulled that trigger, and had the wrong weapon in her hand, she's going to have to be able to articulate that. i don't know. it's horrific. there has to be accountable,
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even if it was an accident, because that's what the american people want. it's going to be interesting going forward, but this is just beyond any of our imagination, when we consider everything that's going on in this very moment. >> so -- i'm sorry, go ahead, mika. >> i just think you have to look at whether -- accident or not accident, you have to look at everything that happened, that led up to that moment. because that's as much a part of it as the pulling of the trigger. the decision to pull him over at a time when registrations and the dmvs across the country are slow to respond, if at all, if you can even. every decision that was made leading up to that moment plays into the problem that we are all talking about right now. >> right, and gene, mika makes a really good point that if you listen to the videotape, if you watch the videotape, it's -- of course, there will be an investigation, but at first
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blush, you listen to everything, you judge human nature, and it certainly appears to have been a tragic accident. that said, why in the middle of a pandemic, why in the middle of the george floyd trial. why in the middle of a crisis where the stickers for the license plates are running behind, because the dmv in minnesota is not getting it out in a timely manner, why in the world are they pulling over a black motorist because their sticker may be a months late, even a year late, especially after seeing the night before videotape of what happened in virginia, where an american patriot, who serves this country honorably in the army, you saw videotape from back in december, where he was pulled over, pepper
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sprayed and humiliated and shoved to the ground, because of supposed license plate infraction, which ended up not being an infraction at all. >> it's the way black men are approached by police far too often in this country. they are approached as being guilty, as being charged, you know, presumed guilty and required to prove their innocence before they're even approached. it's -- you know, this was not a fleeing suspect from a crime. yet why they pull him over, why do they approach him as if he is the most dangerous desperado loose in the midwest? it's stunning to me how this
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happens, over and over again. and it has escalated from zero to a hundred in milliseconds. and it's the victim who has to try to de-escalate. it's just -- it's just, it's heartbreaking, but it's infuriating that it happens over and over and over and over again, and that black men are so often and so tragically the victims of this. so, yes, the officer might have been intended to discharge -- to pull out a taser or instead pulled out a gun, i don't quite understand how that happens. especially as a veteran officer, but maybe that happened, but it is absolutely, as mika said, it is that sequence of events that led to that moment that's wrong, that's just wrong and has to change. >> well, while it's not common, "the new york times" reports on
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a handful of examples in which officers mistakenly grabbed their handgun. some with deadly consequences. in a 2012 law journal article entitled "weapon confusion and civil liability" documented nine cases involving a mistaken use of a handgun by officers who intended to use the taser. according to -- between 2001 and 2009. in six of those nine cases, officers both carried both weapons on the same strong hand side of their bodies. while many police departments require officers to wear their taser on their non-dominant side to prevent the officer from confusing it with their pistol, "the times" reports, and are often marked with bright colors to help differentiate between the two. willie, we're not going to litigate this here on the air, obviously. you just see the video and you hear her, and she says, i'm going to taser you, and then she shouts, taser, taser, taser,
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which i believe is part of protocol to kind of warn a person or to let the officers next to her know that a taser is going to be used, and then she shoots. she seems shocked after the gunshot, herself. >> yeah, i mean, she uses the expletive and said, i shot him, clearly, the moment after she discharged her weapon. cedric, i'm curious to get your point of view on this. you've seen it all. you've led police departments. you've been an officer in miami, rochester, dekalb county, the chief of police there. you've seen a lot. and i think this is an important point for people to understand. is it standard protocol to have the taser on the opposite side? was it standard protocol in the departments you served and the departments you led? i guess the question is, could an officer, in the heat of the moment, given the weight, the size, the color, all the differences, make that mistake? >> i think there are a number of things that gone on here, and
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certainly, i'm not trying to figure out what was going through her mind. but, yes, the taser is usually kept on the weak side of your gun belt. and your firearm on the strong side. if you're right-handed, so the firearm would be on the right hand, your taser would be on the left hand. you know, i think part of the issue is, here, guys, is there's a fear factor here. there's a preconceived notion somehow -- and you can't help but think this -- that wherever you pull over people of color -- and you can go back to the lieutenant the other night there, when he was pulled over. full military gear, but there's -- they focus in -- some, some officers -- not all, some focus in on color first. and whatever preconceived notions that we may have, consciously and unconsciously, come to bear. because even if you think about the incident with the lieutenant when they pulled him over in a lighted location there, they got
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into this whole blm thing. well, it's hard for us, it's hard for you guys. we're in this blm moment, bada bing, bada bang, that has nothing to do, should have nothing to do with the reason why he was stopped. and this young man who died, he lives in that community. he jumps in the car because of bad police procedure, quite frankly, in handcuffing him with several officers on the scene. and he jumps in the car, and he was going to take off. and you have to ask yourself, he can't be going anywhere except in the neighborhood. this kid is not going anywhere. he's there. it's getting to a point where we're going to have to start to ask ourselves and we all understand the challenges of policing. i certainly do, but we're going to have to begin to think about how we do things, and we've got to do them different.
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and it's not just a training, to be perfectly honest with you. we have to evaluate our own ourselves and ask ourselves, are we truly being fair and balanced and can we remove some of three pre-conceived notions we have about people, based on their gender or their race or their sexual orientation or religious preference or whatever? that's the -- that's the problem here? and we're going to continue to see these types of events, because we can train people and train people and train people. but that is not the issue. the issue is, what is the spirit of your heart? how do you approach a neighborhood, a community an equal? and certainly folk who not complying with police need to comply. but the problem in many communities of color, when we tell people to comply, such as the lieutenant, he did exactly what we train our children and family and loved ones to do.
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if you're pulled over at night. but even when you comply, it somehow continues to turn south. and it continues to involve people of color. and i don't think that is being sensitive to the fact that it's people of color. look at the data. look at the reports that we see morning after morning after morning, day after day after day. and if you notice, they're beginning to run a lot closer together now than what we have seen in the past. but they're happening. it is an american issue that we're going to have to confront, we're going to have to deal with. there are thousands of good police officers right out there at this very moment, attempting to do a great job. but it's those individuals who come to work, who may have a different frame of mind about what they like and don't like and it gets played out on the street. it's not good for their departments, their city, or this country. and we need to make a
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self-assessment, all of us do, regarding that. every day, joe, right here in pensacola, right here in this community, there are great police officers. but we all, across this country, those of us that are in public service that provide the welfare of people's safety got to make sure we do our own self-evaluation. this is too far out of control. >> cedric alexander, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning and for those words. as we've said, none of this took place in a vacuum. none of it. yesterday was the last full day of testimony in the prosecution's case against former police officer derek chauvin. and it began with the defense motion to sequester the jury due to protests in the wake of the police shooting of daunte wright in nearby brooklyn center. with at least one juror having
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ties to the area. the defense argued the jury could be biased against chauvin. judge cahill denied the motion. the jury then heard from expert cardiologist, jonathan rich, on whether drugs caused floyd's death. and testimony from george floyd's brother about the man the family lost. >> he just was like a person that everybody loved around the community. he just knew how to make people feel better. being around him, he showed us like how to treat our mom and how to respect our mom. he just -- he loved her so dearly. >> i can state with a high degree of medical certainty that george floyd did not die from a primary cardiac event and he did not die from a drug overdose. >> taking into account all of the evidence that you reviewed, do you have an opinion no a
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reasonable degree of medical certainty as to whether mr. floyd's death was preventable? >> i believe that mr. george floyd's death was absolutely preventable. >> prosecutors ended the day with another police use of force expert, who said chauvin's actions were not reasonable. >> it's clear from the number of officers and mr. floyd's position, the fact that he's handcuffed and has been searched that he does not present a threat of harm. somebody who doesn't have a pulse presents a threat in any way. no reasonable officer would have believed that that was an appropriate, reasonable, or acceptable use of force. >> reporter: the state is expected to rest today and defense will likely call its first witness. let's bring in professor in law at georgetown university, paul butler. he's an msnbc legal analyst. just take us through yesterday's day in court. what were the key events, the key points made? and how does this fit into the
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grand scheme of things, as we cover these stories all around this? >> mika, at the trial yesterday, yet another doctor testified that mr. floyd died because of chauvin's knee on his neck and not because of a drug overdose or pre-existing heart condition. and yet another police expert testified that chauvin crossed way past the line for reasonable use of force. at this point, if jurors are not persuaded on cause of death and use of force, they never will be. the police and medical expert testimony on this issue has been more comprehensive and emphatic than any high-profile case in years. >> they sort of touched all the notes in wrapping up the case yesterday, did the prosecution. you had the personal with george floyd's brother. you had the medical with the cardiologist saying that the death was absolutely preventable. and you have the law enforcement expert saying that was not a
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position or a technique that should have been used. that goes along with two and a half weeks of what i think casual observers, but also experts like yourself believe was a strong case laid out, when you bring in the chief of minneapolis police. when you bring in direct supervisors to former officer chauvin, saying he violated policy. now beginning today, we'll hear from the defense. what does the defense do with those two and a half weeks of testimony from the prosecution? where do they turn the conversation? >> willie, the defense witness list includes over 200 names, but the judge told the jury that the defense will probably be done by thursday. so they will probably call relative few of those witnesses. they don't have to prove anything, including what killed mr. floyd. all they have to do is to poke holes in the government's case, in order to create reasonable doubt. they will present expert medical
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testimony. their star witness is a very persuasive and powerful witness for jurors. if he can raise reasonable doubt about what actually caused mr. floyd's death, that may provide some hope for the defense. >> paul, most analysts that have been covering this trial certainly in the mainstream media have suggested the prosecution has done just about everything right. i'm curious, as someone with obviously a very trained eye in these matters, what was the weakest part of the prosecution's case? and if you were running the defense case, you talked about it poking holes, getting reasonable doubt from one juror. where would you look, based on what you've seen in the prosecution's case, and what would you focus on over the next several days if you were running the defense team?
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>> joe, the defense faces a daunting task. the concern is that the prosecution has powerfully demonstrated that mr. chauvin violated the criminal law and his training and his police regulations by his use of force. and all of the medical experts have been united on the fact that it's mr. chauvin's knee on george floyd's neck that caused the death. so the really important question for the defense now is whether officer chauvin will take the stand. it's the most important decision of mr. chauvin's life. often in a case like this, you would choose not to on the advice of counsel. the concern is that he would be destroyed by prosecutors on cross-examination. or that his testimony might open the door to evidence about the many complaints that citizens have made against him in the
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past. but joe, the evidence has been so overwhelming by the prosecution that the defense may believe it has no choice but to put mr. chauvin on the stand. >> but if there were one area, again, if you were running the defense team, what would you focus on over the next several days? again. for those, again, not familiar with what's going on, they only, as you said, have to poke a hole in the case, get one juror to believe there is reasonable doubt, get a hung jury, and do this again. so what is that area? is it causation? do you bring experts up to suggest that his heart was so weak and he was on drugs and a reasonable officer wouldn't believe what he was doing would have killed this man but he was frail or what would it be?
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because you're right. the testimony has been brutal against chauvin. and yet the defense still has to put on a case. so, what is -- what is that area that you would focus on, that you would try to poke a hole in the prosecution's case? >> it's a great question, joe. and i would have gone for causation. the defense is going to get a little down and dirty. we'll see video from a previous arrest of mr. floyd, where just like in 2020 and 2019, right before the cops get him, he consumes drugs. and we'll hear testimony that in 2019, he told a medic that he had nine percocet pills that day. again, it's putting the victim on trial. it's a little sleazy, but sometimes, it works. again, all the defense has to do is to create a suggest in one juror's mind that maybe it was
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the drugs that killed mr. floyd and not the knee on mr. floyd's neck. >> paul butler, thank you very much for your analysis this morning. an update now on the traffic stop in virginia of second lieutenant car on-nazario. they have asked the windsor police for personnel officers for the two officers used in the incident and all use of force records in the past two years. according to the virginian pilot, they want access to various complaints against the department that involve traffic stop's use of force and treatment on the basis of race, color, and/or national origin. the probe comes after lieutenant nazario sued the police force accusing them of violating his
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civil rights during a police encounter. video of the incident was released over the weekend by nazario's lawyer, and went viral. sparking internal investigation calls from the governor. >> get out of the car! >> what's going on? >> get out of the car now! >> what's going on? >> what's going on is you're fixing to ride the lightning, son. >> get out the car! >> you received an order! obey it! >> i -- i'm honestly afraid to get out. >> yeah, you should be. >> the sergeant major of the army yesterday tweeted his support of lieutenant nazario. quote, he represented himself and our army well through his calm, professional response to the situation. i'm very proud of him. willie? >> so, gene robinson, lieutenant nazario had temporary plates taped to the inside window of his car. the officers pulled him over because they didn't see permanent plates on the car. it was a new vehicle. but we got a couple of windows into what it's like to be a person of color in these traffic
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stops when he said, i'm honestly afraid to get out. the officer said, "you should be." and in the case of daunte wright, when he was getting pulled over, he called his mother, which i thought was very telling. when i get pulled over, if i get pulled over for speeding, it's never once crossed my mind to call my mother. he called his mom, who reminded him to put his hands on the steering wheel. it's a conversation we talked to you about over the past several years. two very stark windows into what's it's like inside these vehicles in these moments. >> yeah, you know, one of the witnesses, i think it was mr. mike milne in the george floyd trial testified to having yelled at george floyd when the police officers put their hands on him, "you can't win." that's the situation. driving while black. you can't win. lieutenant nazario did
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everything right. everything he should have done, and yet already those two officers with their handguns drawn, pointed at him, for reasons that he has no ability to even comprehend. even understand. why is this happening? why are black men, more often than not, black men approached, especially in these traffic stop situations, with this level ten of force immediately that escalates the situation. and fortunately, in the case of lieutenant nazario, because he was so calm and so even, that did not end in tragedy, but it could have. over literally nothing. over missing plates that weren't
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missing. but even, of course, if they were missing, who could get plates the last year, because dmvs have been closed, including the dmv in virginia was closed for months and months and months. but that doesn't even apply in this case. that's not even a factor. there was absolutely no reason for him to have been stopped. but the officers could not acknowledge their error, right? it's as if once they start, they have to dominate. they have to subdue this black man in a way that humiliates him. it is, you know, it's an old story. it's an old story of racism in this country. it's 400 years old. but it's got to stop. because -- we can't take this anymore. this has got to stop. >> we're going to continue following this and continue this conversation, which is much-needed. we want to turn to politics now. president joe biden hosted an
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oval office meeting with a group of lirp lawmakers yesterday, to see if they could build any compromise on his $2.3 trillion infrastructure package. in comments before the meeting, the president noted that negotiations may come down to the actual definition of infrastructure. >> i'm prepared to negotiate, as tor how the extent of my infrastructure project, as well as how we pay for it. but if we get in a serious conversation about how to do that. i think everyone acknowledges, we need significant increase in infrastructure. it's going to get down to what we call infrastructure. >> some republicans say that they're concerned about window dressing. >> i'm not big on window dressing, as you've observed. thank you very much. >> joining us now, nbc news white house correspondent, mike memoli. so where is the opportunity
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between the parties in this bill, mike? >> reporter: mika, the glimpse we got of that meeting yesterday in the oval office, four republican senators, congressmen, four democratic senators and congressmen. white house officials stress is just the beginning of many meetings that we're going to be seeing. not just between the president and lawmakers, but with other members of the administration over time. this is not the american rescue plan, where the president welcomed in a group of republicans. there was some back and forth, but then they very quickly made the decision to go it alone. and part of that is because the president really does want to get washington back in the habit of having these conversations, of trying to forge bipartisan solutions, especially on an issue, infrastructure, which we've heard from both sides is a priority, something that needs to be done in this country. but the president is an optimist. he believes that there is a chance to maybe get some republicans onboard, maybe with a smaller package. you've heard him say repeatedly that the compromise is certain.
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that the details he's proposed are not necessarily what's going to be in the final solution. but the president is also a realist. and when you talk to democrats, officials in the white house, you also hear something which is, he knows that republicans, many have already drawn a hard line. no tax increases is going to be acceptable to them as way of paying for this. and so there's an element of this, which is an audience of one. they immediate to be able to show to joe manchin and some other democrats there that every effort to try to win republican support was exercised here, so that if and when they do need to go and do this through a reconciliation process, which only requires democratic votes, he feels that this process was one that bipartisanship was at least efforted and then of course there's the politics. the white house releasing state-by-state packages showing how this would benefit all 50 states. and there's key interest for
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states like california and kentucky, guys. >> mike, roger wicker after meeting talked about how taxes couldn't be part of any deal. and i'm just wondering if that doesn't apply to every republican in the united states senate, despite the fact that raising corporate taxes there 21 to 25% or 28%, moving it back to the pre-trump numbers might be popular with a good number of americans. does the white house expect a single republican to vote for an infrastructure package that raises taxes on corporations at all? >> you're going to see the white house do everything they can to try to challenge republicans to come forward with a solution on their own. if you're not going to support raising taxes on those earning more than 400,000 a year, and especially if you're not willing to raise taxes on some of the very corporations and businesses that you're arging are playing
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into cancel culture and need some sort of punishment as well, then is there anything that you're willing to do to help the american people? and the president, when he was a candidate, very often talked about how he was certainly going to do everything he can to operate in a bipartisan manner. and when he was challenged on whether he could work with this republican party, he said, i have no illusions about this. this is not your father's republican party, he would say. you do your best to try to bring them to a common ground. and if you can't get there, you go out and beat them. this is a white house that is very much working with a sense of optimism here to try to come to a bipartisan solution, but with 2022 and the awareness of the headwinds for a midterm election in mind, but knowing that they're running on very safe political ground here, they believe, with their proposal here, and they're prepared to use it against republicans in the midterm elections, if necessary. >> nbc's mike memoli, thank you very much. i want to bring in former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve
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rattner, who has charts on the disputed parts of the president's infrastructure plan. the corporate tax rate increase. steve, if you could explain that for us? >> sure. well, we've been talking a lot on this show. you've been talking a lot on this show, including just a moment ago about the corporate tax situation. and that is an important piece of it, because there's a lot of pressure to actually pay for some, if not all of this. and so a linchpin of the biden proposal is to raise corporate taxes to 25 or 28, which is the biden proposal. but let's take a look at how that fixes into the historical context of where corporate taxes have been and why this -- why biden has made this proposal. so we provided the post-war period into roughly three periods. and if you go back to the end of world war ii, until reagan's tax reform act of 1986, corporate taxes were at about 43%. 43% tax rate. the '86 tax bill dropped that down to roughly 35%. and you can see that middle period where it sat at 35%,
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until the trump tax cuts, known as the tcja, dropped it to 21. and then i've shown you on the dotted line where 25 would put us as a potential compromise. but let's take a look at how corporate tax revenue fits into the federal budget. this becomes a part of the whole debate about who should be paying what. if you go back into this case in the 1960s, you can see that corporate taxes accounted for about 23% of federal revenue. actually, a little bit more than what was paid in payroll taxes and medicare and things like that on the black line. the lighter-colored line at top were personal income taxes which have stayed pretty flat in terms of their share. but over these 50 to 60 years, you can see that the amount paid in payroll taxes, the black line, has been going up, up, up, and the amount paid in federal taxes has been going down, down, down. so as we sit here today,
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corporation income tax is only accounting for 7% of federal revenue compared to 23% back in the 1960s. so, you can -- you can say to yourself, of course, corporations should be paying a fair share. but what's the issue? one of the issues is the fact that we live in a global world. and one of the consequences of living in a global world is that companies can move their jobs and sometimes even themselves from one country to another in order to, in effect, game the tax system. what this chart shows. if you look at the turquoise balls at the top, this is what the corporate tax rates for in each of these countries, back in the year 2000. and the oecd, as you know, is the organization of the world's largest developed country. that's a kind of average. and you see us next to that. and so everybody was kind of in this mix with the exception of ireland. everybody was pretty much in this mix at relatively high rates. but over the ensuing 20 years,
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many, many countries cut their corporate tax rate very substantially. you can see what georgia did, for example. you can see even the united kingdom. and we were still sitting up there in that turquoise ball. and everybody else was down in their black bars. so what trump did was he said, we've got to cut our tax rate to be competitive with the others. we cut it down to 21% an now we're sitting there, still higher than some, but at least in line with the oedc average. that's the problem. and janet yellen has announced a program to go out and try to get all of these countries onboard for certain minimum taxes so it doesn't become a race to the bottom, which is what it's become. get everybody to raise their taxes. but it's important that our raising of corporate taxes, which i'm very, very much in favor of, needs to be in concert with other countries so we don't end up losing jobs and companies as a result of our raising our corporate tax systems to reasonable levels. this is a very important part of the debate, as you said, that is
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going on in the context of the new, quote, infrastructure bill. >> steve, as you point out, back in 2018, 91 of the fortune 500 companies in this country paid zero, effectively, federal tax rate, including amazon, made millions of dollars, didn't pay a dime of taxes. does joe biden hope to do anything about that? and how much resistance will he meet from republicans there? >> yeah, so, there are really two parts to this. one is the corporate rate paid by those who do pay taxes and we just went through that discussion. on the other hand, there are these 90 at the moment companies that don't pay taxes. that is principally, as a result of a whole bunch of other provisions in the trump tax bill that gave them special deductions. like a homeowner being able allowed to deduct the cost of their home improvements, that allowed them to in effect eliminate their tax bills. there are many provisions in the joe biden corporate tax bill
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that would reverse many of those changes as well to get those companies to start paying taxes. and he's also proposed minimum taxes that companies would have to pay regardless of some of these other deductions and things. he is very much trying to close to loopholes and get companies to pay their fair share. >> steve rattner, thank you very much for all of those explanations. still ahead on "morning joe," "the washington post's" karen tumulty joins us with her new look at one of the most influential first ladies of modern america. plus, former house speaker john boehner is our guest this morning. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back you're watching "mor .ning joe." we 'll be right bac hey lily, i need a new wireless plan for my business, but all my employees need something different. oh, we can help with that. okay, imagine this... your mover, rob, he's on the scene and needs a plan with a mobile hotspot.
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. and do you always take "no" as a final "no," mrs. reagan? >> um, yes, although, i may come
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back to it a little bit later and try again. >> you've seen that when she'll fall back five steps and then try again? >> come in from a different direction. >> that was ronald and nancy reagan back in 1985 at the start of the 40th president's second term in office. and while nancy laughed when asked about her influence on the president, our next guest writes about the times the late first lady had to step in to help the administration. joining us now is columnist for "the washington post," karen tumulty. she's the author of the new book out today entitled, "the triumph of nancy reagan." >> so, karen, you are a very outrageous writer. the name. the mere name, nancy reagan, triggers people. it's like i saw a documentary that blamed ronald reagan and
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nancy reagan for everything from the trading of the trading of l.a. to which cannen. going after you on twitter. you're like, you really should, if not read the book, at least read a little of history. but i remember after reagan got elected, nancy reagan was turned into a one-dimensional character by her critics from the start. why? >> that's right. and thank you so much for having me on. you know, she was really complicated and, you know, quite frankly, i don't think she really wanted people to understand her. but she was really portrayed as this kind of traditional, pre-feminist throwback. and you know, she brought a lot of her things up, buying
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expensive china, redecorating the white house in the middle of the worst recession since the great depression. i don't flinch from any of that in the book. but she was just an essential partner to ronald reagan, in part because what people don't really understand about reagan, as affable as he was, as genial as he was, as gifted as he was at connecting with the american public, he was really a solitary figure. he liked people. he didn't need them. he was close to exactly one person in the world and he married her. and it was nancy reagan, who really takes on the sort of tougher parts of politics. the inter-personal conflict. when somebody had to go because they weren't serving her husband well, she was usually the one to
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know it first and the one to make it happen, as james baker told me, her political stwing is were actually better than her husband. >> and she wasn't afraid. even though she seemed demure on the camera when asked, she wasn't parade to stay on him. i remember back when don regan got fired. and nancy went after him so much, what reagan yelled back at her about getting off his back, in a bit of a harsher terminology made the papers back then, which was a rarity. but nancy had her way and don regan left. >> and the people in her husband's orbit who were smart enough to know made her their ally. certainly james baker did, george schultz did. and you know, one of the things that she wanted to see was she wanted to see her husband go down in history as a peacemaker,
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not a war mongerer. she understand that it was possible, along with his cold war rhetoric, his anti-communist posture, there was an idealist and that he believed in a world without nuclear weapons. and he also believed in his own abilities as a negotiator. this was something that a lot of the people, the hawkish people on his security team resisted. they thought there could never be a working relationship with moscow. but she set it up so that george schultz gets the president alone one night, and that is the moment where schultz begins to realize, this guy is dying to have an opening with moscow. he also realizes, as george schultz told me, anybody with any brains would make a friend of the first lady. >> yeah. there's a moment in here where, right after ronald reagan gave
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his evil empire speech, there's a moment here where you describe how nancy reagan is just leaning in on him and berating him for using such intemperate language. stu spencer, of course, a longtime aide, is there. and reagan turns and asks stu spencer if he agrees with nancy and he begins to answer and is cut off by ronald reagan, because reagan saw that stu spencer, too, was going to say yes to an evil empire, but your language was intemperate. and you have that wonderful moment. explain that to our viewers, if you will. >> well, grohmica was the soviet minister, known as grim grom. and he is invited to the white house. and he is the highest soviet official to that date ever received in the reagan white
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house. and so schultz tells nancy, he says, why don't you come around for the reception. so grohmica sees her in there, immediately, she starts flirting with him, because she was a world-class flirt. and at some point, gromica says, why is it so hard to get your husband to the negotiating table? why don't you whisper peace in his ear at night. and nancy reagan grabs him by his shoulders and pulls him down and she said, i will, and i'll whisper it in your ear, too, peace. and he's completely taken aback. and afterwards, george schultz tells nancy, you just won the cold war, nancy. but she also steps in at the moment where her husband's presidency is in its greatest peril. and i really think the heart of the book is the iran contra scandal, where nancy reagan
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quite literally runs the rescue effort, including shaking up the white house staff, getting don regan fired. but also convincing her husband, her very stubborn husband, that he is going to have to admit to the country and admit to himself that he has traded arms to iran in exchange for the release of u.s. hostages, something he had promised he would never do and something that was against policy. and sort of how she does that and the people she comes -- she literally sneaks people in through a semi-secret tunnel between the treasury building and the east wing to come up and make the case to her husband, the eternal optimist, you are in some serious trouble here, potentially legal trouble. and you're going to have to make an admission that you don't want to make. >> and as you write in the book, not the only time when nancy reagan saw the danger her husband was in more than he saw
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it. hand picked the speechwriter for that speech and convinced him to admit to a mistake. there's another fascinating piece of the book. president reagan, the reagan administration has been krooid for ignoring for too long the aids crisis of the 1990s. and it was nancy reagan who finally nudged him with a little help from liz taylor to confront the crisis. >> yeah, you know, this is not to excuse anything. the complacency. the neglect of the reagan administration will go down and remain one of the deepest scars on its legacy. but wins again, nancy reagan before her husband gets a sense of what is going on, she and her husband -- and her son, ron, start trying to sort of talk to reagan about this, get him to understand what is going on and
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finally he decides, belatedly, that he is going to finally, in 1987 give a speech on this. and at that point, the conservatives in the white house don't see aids as a health crisis. they see it as a moral crisis. as you know, as an assault on -- because they believe homosexuality is a sin and an assault on nature. pat buchanan at one point was the white house communications director said, oh, the poor homosexuals, they sinned against nature and now nature is striking back. so nancy not only gets ahold of the speech, she won't let the west wing touch the speech. she goes out and gets her own speechwriter, landon partman. for the first time, the president actually sits down with his surgeon general to discuss this. by then, the conservatives in the white house have figured out what's going on and they are sort of waging a counterassault.
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and really, just going through the speech writing records in the reagan library on all of this was just a revelation of the battles that were going on inside the white house and even inside the reagan family over this. >> yeah. hey, could you -- you mentioned ron reagan along with nancy. and i believe it was the showtime documentary, "the reagans," there were many reagan supporters who thought that ron reagan at times seemed like a hostile witness against his father. i remember actually having lunch one time with nancy reagan and it was obvious how much she loved her son. talked about her daughter a great deal, but there was that special bond between mother and son, at least from my
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observation. i'm curious about that relationship and how that played into most of ronald reagan's distant relationships with his children. and this is -- i've got to say, this is flummoxed biographers. ronald reagan still remains impenetrable to many biographers. and poor edmond morris and others have not been able to figure this man out, who could be beloved by millions, but seems detached from his own children. tell me about that relationship. did nancy ever try to play go will have between between the children and reagan? and sort of narrow -- even i'm having trouble trying to figure out how to say this. narrow that emotional gap that seemed to exist with a man who
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seemed so affable and lovely. >> well, i think that this deeply dysfunctional family was just sort of the collateral damage of the great love story that was the reagans. they were bound so closely together, as patty even says in her eulogy for her mother at her funeral, they were bound so closely together, that they were all they needed. there was really no room for anyone else. and so, all of these four children, and they have all told their own stories, they're sort of always on the outside of their parent's marriage. interestingly, though, ron was the favorite. and i, in my interviews with him, found him incredibly insightful about both of his parents. and he traces a lot of his mother's character, her wariness, her constant state of
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anxiety to the fact that when she was a child, she was abandoned for six years by her actress mother, who just leaves her with relatives. leaves this very lonely little girl, you know, yearning for her mother. and as ron told me, and it really bears out in the research, this casts a shadow on nancy reagan's spirit that never really quite lifts. she's always convinced that no matter how good things are going, life is a trap door. everything could fall -- the bottom could fall out at any moment. and that seems to be confirmed two months into her husband's presidency when she almost loses him. he comes very close to death after the assassination attempt. and in that chapter, i really try to go through what that day was like with the reader, almost minute by minute. because it explains some of the
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bizarre things that she subsequently does, including turning to an astrologer to determine the comings and goings of the most powerful man in the world. it does not make sense. but if you -- it's understandable, even if it's not sensible, if you understand sort of her character, the fact that reagan had a religious faith to fall back on, that she really didn't at that point. and she was just desperate for anything that could give her a sense of any kind of control. >> all right. the new book is "the triumph of nancy reagan." karen tumulty, thank you so much. and mika, i remember at nancy reagan's funeral, being so moved and impressed by the strength of those children, who you understood. >> beautiful. >> you understood, it had been, at times, a very rough ride,
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because ronald and nancy reagan were -- i mean, they were a singular unit and at times, as we heard right there, at times, it was even hard for them to penetrate that inner circle. but i was really moved by how beautiful patty and ron's words were for their mother and their father. >> absolutely. it is just past the top of the hour now on this tuesday, april 13th. and we continue with our political books tv series. joining us now, former house speaker, john boehner. he's the author of the new much talked about memoir entitled, "on the house." i love the title. it's great to have you on the show, mr. speaker. and i would like to begin by -- >> good morning. >> good morning, good morning. i would love to begin by asking you about some comments you've
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made in your interviews about this book about the insurrection. and how you feel that president trump really violated and back to the book which we'll dive into. but my question to you is if you were serving in the senate now, would you have the conviction to say those same things? we're asking, because we're trying to understand some members of the republican party who still stand by him on that. >> well, listen, i'm not going to criticize those who are in office. governing today is very difficult as it is. there's no reason for me to make it more difficult. but i watched the months leading up to the election, when the president continued to tell the american people that the election was going to be stolen. and then we got to election day,
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and frankly, it was closer than most anybody thought. but the president then went on to say the election was being stolen, but never put any evidence out there. and it went on for months. and frankly, i think the president abused the loyalty and trust of the people who voted for him by spewing that nonsense without ever putting any facts out there. it was a sad spectacle and frankly incited a lot of people to show up in washington on january 6th under false presences. it was a sad moment in american history. >> yeah, you -- and i meant to say the house, but you -- would you have advice for members of the house now struggling with this political landscape and this issue? >> well, as i say in my book, one of what my staff used to call boehnerisms, if you do the right things for the right
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reasons, the right things will happen. just don't worry about it. that's the key to getting the republican party back on track. is acting like republicans, doing things that republicans believe in, and getting the noise and some of the personalities out of the way. >> speaker boehner, it's willie geist. good to have you with us this morning. >> willie, nice to see you. >> you as well. how do you explain the conduct and behavior of people you know, people who you are friends, people you have worked with a long time, around january 6th. i'm thinking of kevin mccarthy who continued to perpetuate this lie that drove people to the capitol on january 6th. how would you explain their behavior? have you talked to any of them and what would you say to them now if you have not to yet. >> i have not talked to them and there's no question for me to question their behavior. they're in office. they've got a tough job to do.
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my book was not intended to be critical of -- well, a few people, but not many. and listen, when i was leader, i had people shooting at me every day and it made my job harder. >> you're talking about legislative fights and fairness. but what we're talking about is the integrity of the election. when you had the leadership of the republican party all the way up to the president saying that joe biden was an illegitimately elected president. many of them still say that today. so what do you say to that? do you believe that joe biden was fairly elected? >> i've not seen any facts that would support that position. i've been waiting for the facs. we're americans. the most transparent country in the world. there are no secrets. they all show up. and yet, there are no facts. courts would have heard cases if they would have presented some facts.
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they would have had no choice to take up those cases and deliberate on them if in fact there was enough evidence to support those claims, but there wasn't any evidence. i was looking for it myself. never found it. >> so you believe joe biden is the fairly elected president of the united states? >> i said that pretty clearly after the election and believe it today. >> hey, mr. speaker, it's so good to talk to you again. >> my old buddy joe. i remember joe, when you were a freshman member of congress. >> ahh. >> i wasn't your buddy then. i wasn't your buddy then. >> you were -- >> i was difficult. >> you were a pain in the ass, is what you were. >> he still is! >> yes, i was. which is interesting, because that's what leadership would say about you when you first got to congress. then you moved into leadership. you became speaker. and it's interesting, here you
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are now, all of these years later, sort of -- i'm not going to say on the outside looking in, but looking at the leadership, looking at the party. and once again asking, what the hell is going on. is there a future for this republican party? if so, how does it begin moving to a position that, you know, a party that doesn't chase conspiracy theories. >> well, i think it's about acting like a republican. i'm a conservative republican. i believe in fiscal discipline. i believe in a strong national defense. you know, there are principles that unite republicans and i think what the party needs to do is go back to those principles. it's not about who's the craziest candidate out there, who's the loudest candidate. it's about acting like a republican. and i think that mitch mcconnell has been driving his point,
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frankly, pretty consistently. and i think that eventually, we'll get around to being republicans again. but right now, the party's a bit split. of course, you see the same kind of split going on in the democratic party. you have a traditional democrat like joe biden being pushed to no end by the progressives in his own party. and, you know, the skirmish has been going on, well, long before election day, but after the election, this skirmish has been going on, it's been there, but not real visible to most people. uh i think the skirmish in their party is going to widen considerably, as they try to move this infrastructure bill through the congress. >> john, you write about mark meadows. somebody that i've known, somebody who i have considered a friend in the past, and somebody whose alaskas, once he gets out
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of sight, seems unrecognizable. he darts all around. we've seen it time and again, especially during trump's illness. and towards the end, his recklessness during the covid crisis, mocking reporters for wearing masks. you had quite a relationship with him as well and you talk about a time where he got on his knees and started begging you for forgiveness. tell us about that. >> well, it was a couple of months after he was elected and sworn in. his first day in the congress in january of 2013. he voted against me to be speaker. i went on to win and a couple of months later, my staff came to me and said, mark meadows wants to come in to see you. sure, i had an open door policy. any member who wanted to see me, i would see them. so meadows comes in and he looks a little nervous. and he's sitting on this low
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couch across from this chair i used to sit in. and before i could really say much, he slid off of the couch, on to his knees and put his hands in a prayer position and looked at me and said, mr. speaker, would you forgive me. and i said, for what? i forgot all about the fact that he had voted against me. after the 2014 election, he voted against me again to be speaker. and then two months later, wrote me this glowing letter. listen, he's a nice man, but a bit schizophrenic. >> yeah. were you disappointed in his performance as chief of staff at the white house? >> well, i don't know how anybody could succeed as trump's chief of staff, because he didn't want a chief of staff. he wanted to be the chief of staff. and so everybody who was in that position was in an impossible
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position. >> yeah, in your book, it's interesting, you write about bill clinton's impeachment. and looking back, i've thought time and again that we -- that i made a mistake. i voted for two of the four articles of impeachment and thought we should have just censured him. but you also, over time, came to that same conclusion. explain. >> well, it really didn't take me long to figure out that we probably shouldn't have gone down that path. there's no question to me that bill clinton committed perjury. and you know, for the president of the united states to violate the law is an impeachable offense. but lying about sex is not an impeachable offense, according to the american people. and i think it got judged completely wrong and shouldn't
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have happened. >> yeah. >> i agree. >> when we get back, mr. speaker, we're going to talk about don young and a blade put at your throat. >> well, that's dramatic! >> on the house floor. >> okay. so if you could stand by, we want to get your thoughts on this next story, as well. after the january 6th capitol riot, former u.n. ambassador nikki haley said president trump let us down and that we can't ever let that happen again. so why is she now saying that she would support him if he runs again? more with former speaker john boehner on why joe was a big pain in the ass, next on "morning joe."
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welcome back to "morning joe." it's 18 past the hour. former house speaker john boehner is still with us. his new book is "on the house." >> so, john, let's talk about this don young story that -- for those that don't know. don young has been in congress forever and sometimes he would come up and yell at you on the floor well, because it was tuesday. he's just a gruff guy. also, a fun guy to be with sometimes. but you had a very close call with him on the house floor. tes us about it. >> well back in the early '90s, i was a big critic of ear marks. in every spending bill, highway bill, had all of these ear marks in there. and i thought the whole practice of ear marking was irresponsible. i didn't like it. i didn't do it. so i was on the floor of the
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house criticizing some bill that was probably a highway bill, a transportation bill on the floor, criticizing the ear marks that were in there and finished my little speech and was walking towards the back of the chamber and next thing you know, this big gruff guy pushed me up against the back wall of the chamber of the u.s. house and whips out this 10-inch sharp blade and puts it right to my throat. and i got my head back, i've got this sharp blade against my throat. and i looked at him and i went, screw you. except it was more like, screw you. 25 years later, i was the best man at his wedding. you can't make it up. >> okay, that's politics. >> you can't make it up. what would you say to anybody, if they could listen and be rationale, to a new member of congress going in.
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from everything you've learned, from the chaos going on right now, what would be your advice? >> keep your united states open and your ears open. there are a lot of voices in congress, a lot of good people. but take your time. choose your friends wisely. and you'll find your way. but the people who come in pledging their loyalty to some group or some member right out of the gate is doing -- actually doing themselves and their constituents, i think, a disservice. >> yeah, you and i were talking, telling stories about bud shoester. it's funny, both of us railed against ear marks and i would rail against the transportation committee. but there was a moment when i needed beach nourishment, after going after the transportation committee and bud shuster four years in a row, nonstop, every day, as you know. i remember talking to bill young who said, yeah, the only person who can help you with beach
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nourishment is bud shuster. and i said, i can't go talk to that guy. so i went over, head down, and said, mr. shuster, and i told him what i needed. and he said, i'll take care of it. and never said, i've been hearing what you've been saying for four years, punk. nothing like that. showed complete class. and really taught me a lesson about congress and how to deal with people and i know you've seen that time and again yourself. >> i've had my dealings with bud shuster. i was the ranking committee and i was railing against some highway bill and he interrupted me and tried to defend these earmarks and i got my time back and i said, sir, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. and you know, later that day, i was talking to a reporter and i said, listen, if it was up to
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bud shuster, he would pave every square inch of america. and so, you know, a few years later i got bounced out of leadership because bud shuster and some others frankly didn't like me a whole lot. but once i got back into leadership, bud shuster and i became pretty close friends. and his son, bill, took his place. and bill came into the congress and said, listen, i'm my own guy. we're going to have our own relationship. and so bill shuster and i, his son, have been close ever since. and even bud and i have been close ever since. they're good people. good politicians who know their business. >> speaker boehner, you write in the book of what you call the radicalization of the republican party during the obama years. you write, i was living in crazytown and when i took the speaker's gavel in 2011 two years into the obama presidency, i became its mayor. crazytown was populated by jackasss and media hounds and
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some normal cities. you talk about the blind obama hatred. four years after that, donald trump stepped into that moment. talk about that what you saw in those early years under president obama and draw the line to donald trump and his presidency. >> well, you know, we have the tea party movement in 2010. frankly, most of those tea party members, if you will, became good solid republicans, good members to work with. but also in that class, you had some really pretty crazy people. and, you know, they would have these conversations about obama's birth certificate and crazy things like this. and i happened to go on "meet the press" some time in -- when i was speaker, early 2011, and i was asked about, do i believe that barack obama is a u.s. citizen? i said the state of hawaii
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produced a birth certificate claiming that barack obama was a citizen of the state of hawaii, which is part of the united states of america. well, the blowback i got was just beyond belief. so here i am trying to work with somebody i don't have a lot in common with, but i'm the speaker of the house, he's president of the united states. we're trying to get things done. we've got to have a relationship. and here i'm trying to deal with people who think that he was some kenyan-born muslim, for god's sakes. and it just got worse. by 2010, top radio was in full blast. cable tv had moved to all politics, 24/7. and then you have the internet and all of a sudden you've got the social media platforms, allowing members to spew all kinds of nonsense and the create themselves -- whatever image
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they wanted to create out of whole cloth. and trying to bring those members along, bring them into the party was rather difficult. all of this being driven by, frankly, how divided america is. america was getting divided, you know, back in the early 2000s and was growing during my speakership and frankly donald trump's election was a product of the giant schism we see in american politics today, between republicans and democrats. and it's frankly gotten a lot worse over the last five years. it's a sad state of affairs that we have in our political system. those that are in the system, god bless them for trying to do their best, but it's hard to governor when america is as divided as it is. and members of congress reflect the loudest voices in their districts. so it shouldn't surprise anyone that congress is as divided as
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it is. when the american people decide they've had enough of this and they start to become a more realistic in terms of their expectations out of the political process, we'll see politicians begin to change as well. >> a lot of people, mr. speaker, listening to this morning reading your book, may reasonably say, you were there at the creation. you were there when the seeds were planted for the rise of donald trump to become president. you were in fact the speaker of the house when all of the things were describing was going on. when the distrust in media was really developing. as you look back now, a decade later, do you think you could have been more forceful in pushing back again those forces you just describe? >> i have tackled those forces every single day i was there. and looking back, i don't know that i could have done more to push back on them.
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hindsight is 2020. this didn't happen overnight, it happened day by day, step by step, and even though i'm pushing back, the fact is, it continued to grow. the forces, especially the forces of social media became much stronger and laid a much bigger impact in terms of driving the american people either to the far left or the far right. and members as well. but i don't have any regrets. i did my best every day and i'm happy i retired when i did, i can tell you that. >> we have nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "way too early," kasie hunt and she has a question. >> mr. speaker, good to see you again. thanks for being here. you mentioned a little earlier that there are good people in
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congress. and i've always tried to approach covering all of you in the last decade or so in that way. that there are good people trying to do good things. obviously, we spend a lot of time on the scandals and cowards there, it reflects all of us. but i was there on january 6th, and it shook my faith in the people that i always thought to be the best of them. and now they can't even agree on a commission to try to figure out how those walls were breached, how to tell that story, write it down in history, keep it nor the american people going forward. i think my question for you is just, is it now so broken it can no longer be fixed? would you run for congress today? would you tell any good people in america to run for congress today or is it a lost cause? >> listen, i've said it many times. about 90% of the members of congress on both sides of the aisle are good, honest, decent people trying to do their best
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for their constituents and members of the country. but we've always had friends on the far right and the far left. both of my staffers texted me and i watched it for about an hour and frankly i couldn't take it anymore and i turned it off. it was a sad spectacle. but, listen, america has the most resilient people in the world. we'll figure this out. i am a big believer in the greatness of america. we have our faults, we have our problems but eventually we begin to deal with those issues and be able to resolve those issues. if you just do the right things for the right reasons, the right things will happen. and don't worry about it. >> seems so simple. the new book is "on the house: a washington memoir." former house speaker john
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boehner, thank you so much for being on this morning. still want to know all the stories about joe and what a pain he was. we can perhaps review that. >> we can talk about that later. >> he is a pain. he is a pain, but he's my pain, so. >> ahh. thanks for being on. >> thank you, mr. speaker. >> thank you. now to this. the committee in charge of helping republicans win back the senate has named former president donald trump as the inaugural recipient of its champion of freedom award. the award recognizes, quote, conservative leaders who have worked tirelessly to create good jobs, protect the values that make our country great skpf stop the democrats' socialist agenda. it was presented on the same weekend trump tore into minority leader mitch mcconnell, calling the top republican a dumb son of a "b" and a stone-cold loser in a long rant at a republican donor event at mar-a-lago on
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saturday night. another sign of the odd place in which the republican party finds itself post-trump. trump's still there. this time evidenced by former u.n. ambassador nikki haley. after the capitol riot, she was profiled by politico in piece called "nikki haley's time for choosing." the 2024 hopeful can't decide who she wants to be, the leader of a post-trump gop or a friend to the president who tried to sabotage democracy. in it, the former south carolina governor seemed sure that trump's political career was over, saying, quote, he's not going to run for federal office again. when asked if the republican party can heal with trump in the picture, she said, quote, i don't think he's going to be in the picture. i don't think he can, he's fallen so far. she added, we need to acknowledge he let us down. he went down a path he shouldn't
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have and we shouldn't have followed him. and we shouldn't have listened to him. and we can't let that ever happen again. compare that to what she told reporter meg cannard of the associated press yesterday. >> he still has a lot of popularity. if he runs again in 2024, will you support him? >> yes. >> if he decides that he's going to run, would that preclude any sort of run that you would possibly make yourself? >> i would not run if president trump ran. and i would talk to him about it. you know, that's something that we'll have a conversation about at some point, if that decision is something that has to be made. but, yeah, i would absolutely -- i had a great working relationship with him. i appreciated the way he let me do my job. i thought we did some fantastically great foreign policy things together. >> wow. okay. so -- yeah, i don't know what to
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say about that. kasie hunt, you talk about january 6th, how jarring january the 6th was, not just to you and other reporters and americans, like john boehner, who were viewing it and and deeply shaken, but even members of the republican party seemed to understand that donald trump had caused an insurrection against the united states of america, had encouraged it, refused to call it off. and so nikki haley came out and condemned him. another south carolina politician, lindsey graham, said that he had badly tarnished his legacy and lindsey graham was done defending him. he was done with this. you also, of course, had kevin mccarthy go on the floor and say that he was -- that donald trump was responsible, in part, for
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what happened on january the 6th. we heard about the shouting match that donald trump and he had. and so you had all of these republicans who said, enough is enough. he has led us to the precipice. he was responsible. last night, it's very telling that donald trump is now having republicans come to mar-a-lago, top contributors, leaders of that party. he's having rick scott, who wants to run for president, handing him awards that he made up out of whole cloth, i think, to give to a man who led an insurrection against the united states of america. and it is so critical -- i'll say this. you don't have to, you work there. so critical to understand that for many of these republicans
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they continue to support, and now are going back to supporting in some cases, a politician that led an insurrection against the united states. that inspired, at least, an insurrection against the united states. committed conspiracy to commit sedition against the united states of america. it is breathtaking and it's something we have to take note of this day and every day, i think. >> joe, i think you're right. and i don't think i'm outside of the bounds as a straight news reporter to say that the people that showed up at the capitol that day attacked members of congress. they were there to attempt to prevent them from doing the job that they were sent there to do. and that adds another layer beyond simply talking about the president and what he did, that these members of congress are not standing up for themselves, for their own building, for their own power, if their own
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prerogatives that in years past, they would defend something much smaller if there was an incursion into the roles and responsibilities that they had as members of congress. and it has been breathtaking to see how quickly and thoroughly we've gone and that nikki haley example, i think, is a very good one. because those quotes in that tim alberta story, coming out right around time of january 6th, when everyone was reacting to this. and now, you see that it's come full circle back around and she says, nope, he's the leader of the republican party. and joe, my big question here, there was gallup put out a story yesterday that suggests that republican party identification is way down in the wake of january 6th. and what i'm looking to see is, is there a disconnect between professional republicans and what they think and what they think nay need to do and voter in this country? because it is true that there were 74 plus million people who
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voted for donald trump. but what we haven't had a chance to measure is the reaction to that in the wake of the insurrection. and sure, for nikki haley or anybody else that wants to run, the base is with donald trump. they're in these groups on facebook, like speaker boehner was just talking about, on the most extreme version of this. and everyone who is trying to win elected office is still being held hostage to the fear of donald trump. i have questions that enough americans are still with them that they could become a governing party again. >> if you look at the date on tim alberta's story, february 2021. there was still a live question, was the republican party going to walk away from donald trump and start over or side up to him and be the party of donald trump? it couldn't be more clear where they came down when you look at nikki haley's now revised
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opinion of donald trump as she looks at the weather vane blowing. and a senate committee led by rick scott, they gave an award to donald trump a day after he spent the night at mar-a-lago trashing the leader of senate republicans, mitch mcconnell, a guy who's trashed repeatedly. astounding, but they've chosen sides. >> and again, willie, we've talked about this before. rick scott's job is to raise money for the senate candidats. donald trump has told every republican in america, don't give money to anybody else but me. so what rick scott has done, what ted cruz has done, is what a lot of these republican senators have said done is said, politically, kick me in the face, and i will bow down to you. kick me in the face and i will
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give you an award. insult my wife, and i will -- and i will work for you and defend you endlessly. accuse my father of assassinating a president of the united states, jfk, and i will bow down to you and act craven and defend all comers against you. and this is what donald trump's learned. it is -- it's what mika and i said to a guy i liked very much and always considered a friend, the day that paul ryan endorsed donald trump, mika and i said, you can't do that. you can't give him something for nothing. he's a bully. you have to stand up to the bully. and if you do, you at least have a chance to have a working relationship. but look at this. rick scott -- look what rick scott's doing there.
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he's shaking the hand and giving a made-up award to a guy who conspired to commit sedition against the united states. and when his own vice president's life was in danger, when mike pence was chased to the basement with secret service members surrounding him and his wife and his children, when they were chanting, "hang mike pence," when police officers were being assaulted. one of them who was assaulted died later on. donald trump was cheering this on. let's go back to this picture of rick scott. rick scott kowtows to donald trump, gives him an award. despite the fact that donald trump is saying, don't trust rick scott, don't trust the senate committee.
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give all of your money to me. they are all rhinos. so, willie, time and time again -- >> it's a cult. >> no, they're just cowards. let's call a coward a coward. willie, they're all cowards. these republicans, other than liz cheney, adam kinzinger, and there are some senators that have spoken out as well. they're just cowards. this is what i don't understand. we can get kasie in on this, too. maybe she can explain it. donald trump's a loser. he lost the white house. he lost the house. he lost the senate. he lost local races. he lost the governor's race in kentucky. he lost the governor's race in louisiana. in 2017, he lost the governor's race in virginia.
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he lost a lot of the assembly races in virginia. democrats won across the board over the past four years, and yet republicans are still kowtowing to them as if they don't have the history of the past four years. this guy loses. it's what he does. he had a lucky day, in 2016, he closed his eyes, you know, and the ball went in. of course, comey was up there with a ladder, putting the ball in there. helped him. but he had one lucky day and they continue to take out a first mortgage, second mortgage, third mortgage, fourth mortgage on the party's future. it's really, really insulting. you know, this country could use a conservative party about now, willie. >> a real one.
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>> casie just asked david perdue and kelly loeffler how they feel about the president's influence on the party. ask mitch mcconnell right now how he feels about the president's influence on the party. ask whether that covid relief package or this infrastructure bill would have gotten through. it wouldn't have, because we're at 5050, how they feel about donald trump's impact on the party. >> well, and the flattery attempt here. this is what they tried to do for four years with the president. they tried to flatter him and hope and pray that they wouldn't go after him, because he was afraid that he would go after them. and they're still trying to same strategy here. rick scott going down there, handing that bowl over to former president trump, even as he's actively campaigning against one of his own. so, you know, i'm losing the phrase that people tend to use. it's a cliche when you do the
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same thing over and over and over again and expect a different result, but it does not make sense to me. >> we have some breaking news just coming into us. the food and drug administration and center for disease control and prevention are now recommending a pause in the use of the single-dose johnson & johnson vaccine. this comes after six recipients of the vaccine developed a rare blood clot within two weeks of their vaccinations. nearly 7 million doses have been administered in the u.s. to date. "the new york times" reporting all six cases were women between the ages of 18 and 48. one woman died. another is hospitalized in critical condition. in a statement this morning to nbc news, johnson & johnson says, quote, at present, no clear causal relationship has been established between these rare events and the jansen covid-19 vaccine. that's their vaccine. we continue to work closely with the regulators and the public. joining us now, physician, fellow at the brookings
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institution, dr. kavita patel. she's a former obama white house health policy director and an nbc medical contributor. so we're talking about six cases of a rare blood clot. is this the right call, to call for the johnson & johnson vaccine to be paused here? >> it is. and trust me when i tell you, willie, there's no question that this was done out of an abundance of caution, a sign that our process is working. it's just, i'm worried about the downstream effects. this is a devastating blow to an incredibly promising one-shot vaccine, that 8 million americans have already received. >> so 8 million americans have received it. we're talking about six cases. from what you know, what you've learned, is there any relationship between getting the vaccine and these six cases? one death and one in critical condition? >> if you look at the trial data that was submitted to the fda for the emergency authorization,
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there had been a mention. obviously, no fatality, no deaths, but there had been mention of clots. it was deemed that that truly with people who got the vaccine and did not get the vaccine had essentially the same rate of those clots. so it wasn't the vaccine causing them, but these are people who would have had clots through another mechanism. on the heels of understanding where astrazeneca has been across the world, remember, they're playing out with having their own issue with associations with similar clotting mechanism, but we are dealing with a different viral vector protein, so it's not apples and apples, but now apples and oranges that are causing regulators to stop and say, six cases, young women. this is also a pattern we saw with astrazeneca, that younger people had a kind of an association. notice, nobody is saying caused,
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but an association and the risks are significant. the fda will have a press conference. you know they'll be bringing the advisory committees back to look at the post uae data and we'll see if there will be changes made to the label or a pause that's continued indefinitely. either way, it's a devastating blow for our ability to whole country at the pace that we've been keeping up. >> obviously, millions of people excited to get the johnson & johnson vaccine, because it is one shot. some of them probably have appointments today. so in your experience, how long might a pause like this last? >> so we're in unprecedented territory. we've never had euas issued for a novel virus. we have had euas issued before. recall our friendly kind of euas way before the pandemic. some of us don't even remember now, but h1n1, we've had a number of these types of authorizations issued.
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anytime there's a pause, these pauses commonly get scrutinized and in most cases get lifted some when the data supports it. i do think you'll see the fda being forced to look not just at the safety data, but i think even if they take off this pause, it's going to be very hard to walk back from any confidence people have had. i have already had -- i had patients today scheduled today with johnson & johnson. we have been pausing, but it will be hard to pick up the phone and say, remember, we paused on that vaccine, now there are appointments. and moderna and pfizer are sitting there and potentially offering that to them. it's going to be hard to talk about this. six cases out of 8 million creates less than 100th of a percent. it's not a trivial number, but it's just something to take in mind that that's the type of thing that we're going to be looking at. our regulatory process is working, because people are trying to be as safe as
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possible. so this will play out in the next several days through the advisory process. >> as you say, even six cases will contribute to some of that hesitancy we've already seen in the country. dr. kavita patel, great to have your insights on this story. thanks for hopping on this morning with us. we appreciate it. mika? appreciate it. >> mika. >> now to the developments on the imprisonment of putin critic alexei navalny. weeks after declaring a hunger strike from his cell, russian prison staff are reportedly threatening to force feed the opposition leader. navalny stopped eating at the end of march to protest a lack of proper medical care according to messages communicated through his allies. he claims staff have refused to treat back pain and numbness in his legs and refused to let him see his own doctors. mean while, tensions along the ukraine/russia border are rising as russian president vladimir putin continues to position an
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increasing number of troops along the country's edge. yesterday ukraine accused moscow of ignoring the request to discuss what they estimate is around 40,000 troops. russia responded that the country is free to move their soldiers within its territory. joining us now, correspondent for gx magazine julia ioff, and from stanford and an nbc news international affairs analyst, michael mcfaul. ambassador mcfaul, if we could start the ukraine issue. what are the stakes here and what are your biggest concerns from what we know so far? >> well, this is the biggest russian military buildup on the the borders of ukraine and crimea since 2014.
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now we don't exactly know what putin's motivations are for doing this. a lot of speculation about what he's speaking to achieve and whether he's seeking to rattle the government of kiev and get the attention of our new president, president biden, we don't know that. but i would just remind everybody watching, we also didn't know what he was doing in 2014. we didn't know what he was doing in 2015 when he intervened in syria or when he intervened in our elections which is to say he has a proclivity for risky behavior and we should rightly be very nervous about what is going on right now. >> mr. ambassador, dr. brzezinski would always tell us that not only vladimir putin, but any country for most part is going to get away with what they could get away with. you look at what happened -- at what putin did in georgia in 2008, what he did in the ukraine
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in 2014. he sent assassination teams and he interfered in the 2016 elections, he moved into syria and whether it was george w. bush or barack obama, or donald trump, he usually got very little, little more than condemnations and some sanctions. none of which has changed his behavior. so what does joe biden do? what do they do to draw a line in the stand, but we've already used that language in the past. what does joe biden's administration do to push back? >> well you're right. when somebody in the kremlin decides to use milt force in region of the world, we have few capabilities to deter them. and if dr. brzezinski were here today he would add to your list,
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czechoslovakia 1968. that is true. having said that, i think you need to signal what the cost might be ahead of time and i think the biden administration is doing a good job of that. they've made statements and made statements with the g-7. i think that is important. they just signaled yesterday, very important, there was a news report that said that the javelins, that the trump administration had provided to the ukrainians, are not stored in western ukraine as we have previously stated and the ukraine military is free to move the javelin, those are anti-tank missiles to wherever they want. i thought that was a very important signal. what is next is to say up ahead of time, not afterwards, what might the economic sanctions be should russian move into ukrainian -- i want to remind everybody they are already there. there is already a war in ukraine. but escalatory measures, when
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push comes to shove we have few capabilities to stop military intervention in ukraine if putin decides to go in. the folks that will stop that will be the ukrainian military themselves. >> so alexei navalny has lost 30 pounds during this hunger strike and refusing treatment from prison doctors, you could understand why he would be suspicious there, asking for her own doctors to be brought in and the prison is saying they may have to force feed him. where is this headed? how does this end? >> it is unclear. but the advice navalny has gotten from people who have done time for political crimes, essentially like the former oil tycoon who i don't know if you recall did about ten years in prison, was that if you start a hunger strike, be prepared to finish it. if you back down once, that is it. you show weakness to the russian government, the russian state, that is it. they're know you're weak and
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walk right over you. and worth adding is not just that their threaten to force feed him but their slipping candy into his pockets, they're also sending in fellow inmates with small kind of gas plates or little grills to grill chicken in fron of limb, which is normally not allowed in the penal colony to continuously tempt him out of his hunger strike. we also know that the pain and the numbness seem to be the result of two slipped disks and that the penal colony doctors are offering him very outdated, strange treatments, which is why he's been refusing them. >> julia, real quick, we've got to go, but for those, why did he go back to russia? >> i think it was a no-brainer for him. he would have been completely irrelevant if he had stayed away. if he wanted to lead the russian
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people in opposition to their own government, you have to be there with them. and i think he understands that he would have just been consigned to utter political irrelevance if he had stayed away for his own safety. >> i think it is also -- >> yulia. >> real quick. i think for somebody like him, he sees it as the path to the presidency, that this is kind of a required step and one that he's willing to take a few years in jail in order to reach the kremlin himself. >> julia ioff and former bradford michael mcfaul, thank you both very much for coming on this morning. please come back as we follow this escalating story. coming up, the latest from outside of minneapolis. amid growing outrage in the aftermath of sunday's night's deadly police officer involved shooting. we're back in 90 seconds. shootig we're back in 90 seconds
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♪♪ good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, april 13th. along with joe, willie and me, we have pulitzer prize winning columnist and editor of "the washington post," and msnbc political analyst, a gripping of a minneapolis suburb in the wake
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of the sunday night deadly shooting. police in brooklyn center used tear gas on protesters after they set off firearms and hurled objects to officers on the scene. according to the minnesota state patrol, some officers suffered minor injuries. at least 40 arrests were made overnight. as reports of looting in the area remain limited. two armored law enforcement vehicles were rolled out to subdue the crowds that were out past the 7:00 p.m. curfew. they tried to put a curfew, people stayed out. more than 1,000 minnesota national guard troops were also deployed to the area, willie. >> so here is what we know about shooting this morning. brooklyn center police department has released body camera footage showing the moment 20-year-old daunte write was shot and killed. he was pulled over for expired tags when police discovered he had a warrant for his arrest.
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we want to warn you this morning before we show that footage, it is upsetting, it is graphic, you may want to take a poemt to look away if you feel like you need to but here is exactly what happened when police tried to take wright into custody. >> i'll tase you. i'll tase you. taser, taser, taser. [ bleep ]. >> i just shot him. >> oh, wow. >> yes! >> you hear the officer say i just shot him. at a news conference yesterday brooklyn center police chief tim gannon believes the shooting was accidental. >> for informational purposes, we train with our handgun on our dominant side and our taser on our weak side. you carry your taser on the left
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if you're right handed. this is done purposefully and it is trained. as i watched the video and listened to the officers' command it is my belief the officer had the intention to deploy the taser but instead shot mr. wright with a single bullet. this appears to be and from what i reviewed that this was an accidental discharge that resulted in the tragic death of mr. wright. >> the officer who discharged her firearm shot mr. write has been identified as kim potter. a 26-year veteran of the brooklyn center police department. she's been placed on administrative leave right now. an autopsy confirmed a gunshot wound to the death listing his manner of death as homicide. the first blush from the police department and from the chief is that this was an accidental shooting. we could get into this with some of our experts, but as he himself just said, there is a reason that the tase is placed
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on a nondominant side of an officer's bart and the firearm is placed on the dominant side, that the color is different, the weight is different, all of those things, anticipating a moment like this so that the officer wouldn't reach for the wrong weapon. >> and unfortunately "the new york times" has pointed out this morning this has happened before all to often. let's bring in former member of president obama's task force, cedric alexander. he's former public safety director of dekalb county in georgia. cedrick, as always, we appreciate you being with us today. the tragedy, it is a tragedy any time, anyplace, anywhere, but the timing of this was especially terrible, especially in the minneapolis area.
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what could you tell us about the videotape. you look at the videotape of what -- what are your conclusions? >> well, it is an unfortunate event. and i think the investigation itself is going to determine and certainly give the public and all of us are a better idea of what took place in that moment of time. of course, we know what we saw. and what we observed during that moment. but however that officer, how she could confuse the two weapons, maybe under a great deal of stress in that moment, i don't know. but she's going to have to be able to make justification. and certainly the timing of it, the location, being in the upper center of the george floyd trial makes it more challenging. but even makes it more challenging than that, joe, mika, willie, is the fact that if you look across this country, relationships between police and community is very much strained
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in communities across this country. we go from one incident to another incident to another incident that particularly involve people of color. and we cannot dismiss it, we cannot minimize it. it is not a white or black issue for just black people to be concerned about it is an american issue that we have to con front because this is unexplainable, it was unacceptable. whenever was going through that officer's mind when she pulled that trigger and had the wrong weapon in her hand, she's going to have to be able to articulate that. i don't know, but it is horrific and there has to be accountability even if it was an accident because that is what the american people want. so it is going to be interesting going forward. but this is just beyond i think any of our imagination when we consider everything that is going on at this very moment. >> i'm sorry, go ahead, mika.
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>> i think you have to look at, whether accident or not accident, you have to look at everything that happened. that led up to that moment because that is as much as a pulling of the trigger. the decision to pull him over at a time when registrations and the dmv's across the country are slow to respond, if at all, if you could even. every decision that was made leading up to that moment plays into the problem that we're all talking about right now. >> and right, and gene and mika makes a good point, that if you listen to the videotape, if you watch the videotape, it is seen -- of course there will be an investigation but at first blush you listen to everything, you judge human nature and it certainly appears to have been a tragic accident. that said, why in the middle of a pandemic, why in the middle of
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the george floyd trial, why in the middle of a crisis where the stickers for the license plates are running behind because the dmv in minnesota is not getting it out in a timely manner, why in the world are they pulling over a black motorist because their sticker may be a few months late, even a year late, especially after seeing the night before videotape of what happened in virginia where an american patriot, who serves this country honorably in the army, we saw videotape from back in december where he was pulled over, pepper sprayed and humiliated and shoved to the ground because of a supposed license plate infraction which ended up not being an infraction at all. >> it is the way black men are
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approached by police. far too often in this country they are approached as being guilty as -- before being charged, you know, presumed guilty and required to prove their innocence before they're even approached. this was not a fleeing suspect from a violent crime. why they pull him over, why do they approach him as if he is the most dangerous desperado loose in the midwest. it's stunning to me how this happens over and over again. and it is escalated from zero to 100 in milliseconds. and it is the victim who has to
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try to de-escalate. it is just -- it is just -- it's heartbreaking but its infuriating that it happens over and over and over again and black men are so often and so tragically the victims of this. so, yes, the officer might have been intended to discharge a taser or not pull out a gun, i don't quite understand how that happens with a veteran officer, but maybe that happened but it is absolutely, if mika said, it is that sequence of events that led to that moment that is wrong, it is just wrong and it has to change. >> still ahead, a firsthand look at the migrant crisis from where it all begins. we have a live report from central america straight ahead. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪
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yesterday was the last full day of testimony in the prosecution's case against former police officer derek chauvin. and it began with a defense motion to sequester the jury due to protests in the wake of the police shooting of daunte wright in nearby brooklyn center. with at least one juror having ties to the area, the defense argued that the jury could be biased against chauvin. judge cahill denied the motion. the jury heard from jonathan rich on whether drugs caused floyd's death and testimony from george floyd's brother about the man, the family loss. >> he just was like a person that everybody loved around the community. he just knew how to make people feel better. being around him, he showed us like how to treat our mom and how to respect our mom.
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he just, he loved her so dearly. >> i can state with a high degree of met cal certainty that george floyd did not die from a prime cardiac event and he did not die from a drug overdose. >> taken into account all of the evidence that you've reviewed, do you have any opinion to a reasonable degree of met cal certainty as to whether mr. noid's death was preventible. >> i believe that mr. george floyd's death was absolutely preventible. >> prosecutors ended the day with another police use of force expert who said chauvin's actions were not reasonable. >> it's clear from the number of officers and mr. floyd's position, the fact that he's handcuffed and has been searched, he doesn't present a threat of harm. someone who does not have a pulse does not present a threat in in way. no reasonable officer would have believed that that was an appropriate, acceptable or
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reasonable use of force. >> the state is expected to rest today and the defense will likely call its first witness. let's bring in professor in law at georgetown university paul butler, an msnbc legal analyst. just take us through yesterday's day in court, what were the key events, the key points made, and how does this fit into the grand scheme of things as we cover these stories all around this? >> mika, at the trial, yesterday yet another doctor testified that mr. floyd died because of chauvin's knee on his neck and not because of a drug overdose or pre-existing heart condition. and yet another police expert testified that chauvin crossed way past the line for reasonable use of force. at this point, if jurors are not persuaded on cause of death and use of force, they never will
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be. the police and medical expert testimony on this issue has been more comprehensive and emphatic than any high-profile case in years. >> paul as you say, they touched all of the notes in wrapping up the case yesterday. you had the personal with george floyd's brother, you had the medical with the cardiologist saying that the death was preventible and then the law enforcement experts saying it was not a position or a technique that should have been used. that goes along with two and a half weeks of what i think casual observers or experts like yourself believe was a strong case laid out when you bring in the chief of minneapolis police, and direct supervisors to former officer chauvin saying he violated policy. so now beginning today we'll hear from the defense. what does the defense do with those two and a half weeks of testimony from the prosecution, where do they turn the conversation? >> willie, the defense witness list includes over 200 names. but the judge told the jury that
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the defense will probably be done by thursday. so they will probably call relatively few of those witnesses. they don't have to prove anything, including what killed mr. floyd. all they have to do is to poke holes into the government's case in order to create reasonable doubt. they will present expert medical testimony, their star witness is a very persuasive and powerful witness for jurors. so if he could raise reasonable doubt about what actually caused mr. floyd's death, that may provide some hope for the defense. >> paul butler, thank you very much. and coming up -- >> i fell in love with my country when i was a prisoner in someone else's. i loved it not just for the many comforts of life here, i loved it for its decency, for its faith, and the wisdom and
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justice and goodness of its people. i loved it because it was not just a place but an idea, a cause worth fighting for. i was never the same again. i wasn't my own man any more. i was my country's. >> the hero code. the late senator john mccain is among those highlighted in our next guest's new book. retired admiral william mcraven joins us with lessons learned from lives well lived. "morning joe" is back in a moment. back in a moment [sfx: thunder rumbles]
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we wan to turn to politics now. president joe biden posted a meeting yesterday to see if they could build any compromise on his $2.3 trillion infrastructure package. in comments before the meeting, the president noted that negotiations may come down to the actual definition of infrastructure.
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>> i'm prepared to negotiate as to how the extent of the minor infrastructure project as well how we pay for it. but if we're going to get into a serious conversation about how to do that, i think everyone acknowledges we need significant increase in infrastructure. it is going to get down to what we call infrastructure. >> some republicans say that they're concerned about -- [ inaudible ]. >> i'm not big on window dressing as you've observed. thank you very much. >> joining us now, nbc news white house correspondent mike memoli. so where is the opportunity for agreement between the parties in this bill, mike? >> well, mika, the glimpse we got of that meeting yesterday in the oval office, four republican senators, four democratic senators and congressman, white house officials stress is just the beginning of many meetings that we're going to be seeing. not just between the president and lawmakers but with other
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members of administration over time. this is not the american rescue plan, where the president welcomed in a group of republicans, there was some back and forth but then they very quickly made the decision to go it alone. and part of that is because the president really does want to get washington back into habit of having these conversations of trying to forge bipartisan solutions especially on infrastructure which we've heard from both sides is a priority, something that needs to be done in this country. but the president is an optimist and believes there is a chance to maybe get some republicans on board, maybe with a smaller package. you've heard him say repeatedly that the compromise is certain and the details are not what is going to be in the final solution. but the president is also a realist. and when you talk to democrats and officials in the white house, you also hear something which is he knows that republicans, many have already drawn a hard line. no tax increases is going to be acceptable to them as a way of paying for this. and so there is an element of
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this which is an audience of one. they need to be able to show to joe manchin and some other democrats there that every effort to try to win republican support was exercised here. so that if and when they do need to go and do this through a reconciliation process, which only requires democratic votes, he feels that process was one that bipartisanship was at least efforted and then there the politics, the white house releasing state by state fact sheets showing how this package would benefit all 50 states and a special focus on states with keen interest for senior republicans, california and kentucky. >> nbc's mike memoli, thank you very much. and coming up, the guide to surviving everything. dr. john torres joins us with his essential advice for any situation life throws your way. "morning joe" is back in a moment. moment
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well, as the president has said before, it will be tough to meet the may 1st deadline for a full withdrawal for logistical reasons. we're continuing, he's continuing to consult internally with his national security team and advisers and of course also with our partners an allys and he's been working on these issues for several decades and wants to make the time to make the right decision. >> as president biden continues to grapple with whether to pull american troops from afghanistan by may 1st, nbc news reports that his lack of a final decision has frustrated some military officials. a senior military officer said, quote, there needs to be a decision. and a former senior official described biden as, quote, dithering and said the view
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among many military leaders is increasingly just tell us what we're doing here. >> because i understand it is just such -- >> it is a clear-cut decision. >> because it is such an easy decision to make. >> should have made it a long time ago. >> let's bring in retired four star admiral william mccraven, a man understands there is nothing easy about afghanistan. he's the author of the book "the hero code: lessons learns from lives well lived". >> the book is all over my house. >> it is. and admiral, on afghanistan, i would guess you would agree with me that afghanistan is no simpler for joe biden than it was for the soviets or under alexander the great. >> yeah, thanks, joe. again, great to be with y'all this morning. absolutely, this is a difficult problem and i think president biden is taking this kind of methodically and thoughtfully. i know he's in discussions with
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general scott miller who is the commander over there. nobody has more experience than general miller does. so listening to the military leadership, and listening to generals and secretary austin i think is the key for president biden kind of making the decisions to move forward. >> admiral, i love the beginning of this book where i wasn't sure where it was going at the very beginning but you were talking about loving superman and superheroes and when you first went to new york city you kept looking up into the city for superman. and finally your father figured it out and he pointed to the police officer and said they protect us. but you came to a conclusion and that was to protect this country it is up to us. how did that shape your life? >> yeah, you know, as i say in the book, if you could have an epiphany at 8 years old, i think did. because i was looking for
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superman and when my dad pointed me to a cop and said that is the man that protects the city. you realize that superman isn't coming so you have to solve your own problems. at the time the heroes were the astronauts and the great civil rights leaders and heros from everywhere. and you realize that we can learn to be heros. we could learn to have these kind of noble qualities of courage, of perseverance of humility that comes with being a hero. >> and you talk about characteristics, you start with the characteristic that winston churchill said all other virtues came from and that is courage. and in talking about courage, you told us a story of a lieutenant, lieutenant ashly white. tell us about the lieutenant. >> yeah, it is a remarkable story. lieutenant white was part of our cultural support team. so over in afghanistan, we needed to have these great female soldiers on target in order to question the women that
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we met on target, because it is impermissible for afghan or american men to talk to the women. so we had to bring in great, strong really reliable andin incredible warriors part of the team. ashley white was one of those. and i talk about the fact that every single day she took one step and she kind of got on that helicopter and she went and did her job. unfortunately she was killed in afghanistan. she gave her life to her fellow soldiers, so this belief in america. and it wasn't just the act of giving her life on that day. it was every single day that she, again, took that step to get on the helicopter. i mean, that was courage. you get scared in combat and bad things happen. so to be able to have the courage to do your job every single day the way ashley white did, absolutely remarkable. >> admiral, it is willie geist. thank you again for your previous book "make your bed"
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which is giving great ammunition to participants around the world and they say do you know who wants you to make your bed, the guy that got bin laden. so let's talk about the heroes in the last year, the last 15 months in terms of doctors and nurses and school teachers, the every day heroes who sometimes we maybe take for granted twho have been pushed to the forefront and rightly celebrated. what kind of courage and heroism have you seen in the last year. >> great question. i dedicate the book to those heroes. because it is about heroes that inspire us as a society. they inspire the younger generation to be better than the current generation and that is what moves society forward and when you look over the last year as we have struggled with the pandemic and the social upheaval and you see these remarkable men and women that are the health care workers, and the delivery
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people, and just the remarkable first responders and the cops on street trying to do the best job they can. you see these quality of courage, of sacrifice, of perseverance and of forgiveness at times so these are the qualities that are going to make us a better country and i hope the younger generation, the millennials and the gen z will see that they are the heroes and they'll have to move us forward as a nation and i hope they find this book a great read. >> you detail a conversation you had with john mccain before your command. you write this, quote, i knew that the man sitting across from me was more than just a u.s. senator. he was an american hero, the embodiment of duty to his country. we had a lot in common. he was gracious and funny and sometimeir refer rent but he has a undying grat feud tor the men
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and women of the military. as i got up to leave, he shook my hand tightly for a minute or two. can i can't thank you enough. i didn't know how to respond. a man who had been to hell and back and he was thanking me. i never forgot that moment and the humility of the man who served so well. the story of john mccain's heroism is legendary. most of the country knows it by now. but what did you see in the man, the man you call a hero? >> well, he embodied so many of the characteristics we think of as a hero. again his courage and sacrifice. this particular chapter is about his sense of duty. as you know, when he was in that p.o.w. camp, he had the opportunity to leave. the north vietnamese wants to use him for propaganda because her father was a four star admiral and they thought they could make propaganda hey by releasing mccain. but the military code of conduct
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said that you won't take special favors from your captors and mccain refused to leave. now you could imagine that? i mean you've been in a p.o.w. camp, you've been brutalized and tortured for years, you have the opportunity to leave, and you don't. that is just remarkable sense of duty that is unquestionably the character of a great hero. >> admiral, you talk about in your chapter about compassion, you talk about how it is so easy to become jaded by war and then you say this. but every now and then you see an act of kindness and charity that makes you long for the days when you didn't have to hide your sympathy, your mercy or your sadness, where you could cheer for the do-gooders and be proud of the merciful and you say this after a heck of a story about the actor gary senis, could you tell us about that. >> it was one of those interesting moments. i think it was 2006, we were having a meeting of all of the
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generals and the general was the central commander to we're having a important strategic meeting over dinner and the door to this building that we're in in afghanistan opens up and the aide comes in behind him and the civilian looks stunned so be in this place and he looks well who is in charge here. we all laughed a little bit. we knew who was in charge. and he said i guess that would be me. but senis goes up and introduces himself, saying i played lieutenant dan in forrest gump and i'll here to try to deliver some school supplies to children. and it was interesting to watch as gary made this impassioned plea to the general about the need to help these children, how the tenner in the room changed. because as a warrior, sometimes you don't want to lose that edge. you don't want to necessarily feel that compassion because you think it gives the enemy an edge. but boy, when you see people like gary senis and so many
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others doing so many good things it restores your humanity. and let me tell you, in war time, there is nothing more important than maintaining your humanity. i saw gary senis just about everywhere i went in the states and over seas helping the troops and other great americans. >> god bless him. admiral, we met, you reminded me in an earlier conversation, we met 21 years ago. >> right. a long time ago. >> when i went to the -- in coronado, a long time ago. but you've dedicated your entire life to protecting and defending this country, following through on that epiphany you had when you were 8 years old. you spoke out over the past four and a half, five years. i'm curious, for the discouraged, for the disillusioned, what do you tell them about where america is right now, the state of america and what our future looks like?
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>> i'll tell you, joe, i have great optimism. i've always had great optimism. and the fact of the matter is i'm the biggest fan of the millennials and the gen z that you'll ever meet. and this narrative that somehow this generation is these soft little entitled snowflakes, then i'm quick to point out you've never seen them in a fire fight in afghanistan or never seen them try to make a better life for themselves, going to school at someplace in the great state of texas here. the fact of the matter is these young people, they believe in friendships and believe in the country. they question, they ask the hard questions, they mobilize when they think things need to get done. this is a great generation. and i feel like the country is going to be in terrific hands moving forward. so i have great optimism that this nation is going to just fine. >> wow, the knew book is "the hero code: lessons learned from lives well lived." retired admiral william mcraven,
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thank you for being on this morning and thank you for the book. >> thank you so much. >> up next, more on this morning's breaking news concerning johnson & johnson single dose covid vaccine. why u.s. health officials are recommending a pause in its use. plus the biden administration strikes a new international deal to help stem the increasing flow of migrants at the southern border and nbc's ayman mohyeldin joins us live from guatemala, one of the country's fuelling the surge. and before we go to break, we have a special new series we are launching this week on know your value.com. we're talking it leveling up. and it is all about building your voice and your message and connecting it with others effectively, particularly in the post pandemic workplace, particularly for women and minorities. go to know your value.com, keep it right here on "morning joe." it right here on "morning joe. when a hailstorm hit, he needed his insurance to get it done right, right away.
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tremfya®. emerge tremfyant™ janssen can help you explore cost support options. so mexico made the decision to maintain 10 to you troops at the southern border resulting in twice as many daily migrant introductions. guatemala surged 1500 police and military personnel to its southern border with honduras and agreed to set up 12 checkpoints among the graduate. honduras searched to disperse a large contingent of migrants. >> that was jen ptaki announcing that the biden administration has struck a deal with the governments of mexico, honduras
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and guatemala to temporarily increase border security. joining us now from guatemala city, guatemala, msnbc anchor ayman mohyeldin. what could you tell us? >> reporter: good afternoon, mika. this announcement that was made yesterday by the white house was really a surprise here. so to speak. because the guatemalan president and i sat down with him yesterday and spoke to him for an hour and told me point blank that is something that guatemala has been doing on its own accord. he said last year they stopped with the use of force a caravan making its way through hand you're as through guatemala. they say the underlying structural problem that this country is facing and we've had a chance to see that forure selves here in guatemala and the rural parts and it is a desire economic situation that is fuelling this surge of migrants to the u.s. southern border.
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economic situations that are -- that show 50% of the children in this country are malnourished, making less than $2 a day, a imagine of the people, 3.7 million guatemalans living in food insecurity. so it gives you a sense of how desperate the conditions are. i did ask the president whether or not he felt the messaging coming out of the president of the white house in the early days of the administration was contributing to the surge and here is what the president told me in that interview. watch. >> translator: i am nobody to make a judgment here but i believe that in the first fee weeks of the biden administration messages were confusing. there were compassionate messages, yes, of which were understood by people in our country, the coyotes particularly to tell families we are taking your children, the children are going to be able to go in and once the children are there, they will call the parents. so i think that there were
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confusing messages, not that because of the way that they were communicated in the u.s., but because of the way that they were translated here. >> to be clear, he was not blaming president biden for that compassionate message about letting children in the that impassioned message about letting children into the out. but that message was exploited by traffickers and coyotes here in guatemala and elsewhere to try to get migrants recruited to go on these caravans and try to get to the border and that was something we heard for ourselves. we spoke to a 20-something-year-old migrant who when he heard children were being allowed into the united states, he wanted to go with his sister but he was dissuaded by only children unaccompanied by parents were allowed. and according to the president, that was exploited by the traffickers. >> wow, thank you very much.
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ayman muldine, thank you very much. we will be watching 3:00 on msnbc. pg let's go back to the breaking news on johnson & johnson's covid vaccine. the food and drug administration and centers for disease control recommending a pause in the united states of the single-dose vaccine. this comes after six recipients developed a rare blood clotting disorder within two weeks of vaccination. nearly 7 million doses have been administered in the united states to date. "the new york times" reports all six cases were women between 18 and 48. one woman died, another hospitalized in critical condition now. in a statement to nbc news this morning, johnson & johnson said, quote, at present no clear causal relationship has been established between the rare events and janssen covid-19 vaccine, the j&j vaccine. we continue to work with regulators to assess the data and support the open communication of disinformation to health care professionals and
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the public. joining us now msnbc correspondent and emergency room physician dr. john torres and author of "doctor's guide to disaster to survive anything." now the fda and cdc are saying out of an abundance of caution j&j needs to pause this but we are hearing 6 cases out of 7 million doses, the alarm that may cause downstream may not be worth the pause. what's your take? >> you're right. it's going to cause alarm downstream and you will hear people say, should i be taking this shot? they're pausing the shot now and one of the main reasons we're doing that, it is such a rare type of blood clot, we as the main physician have to treat it is different than normal blood clots so they're sending out this message think about it a
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second, don't treat it like you normally do blood clots. treat it a little differently to make sure these patients do okay. that's why they're giving them this information, take a deep breath and go back to using johnson & johnson. my guess is they will use a labeling change when they get the vaccine so you understand what to look for. are they having abdominal pain, leg pain, headaches, if you get that within three weeks of getting the shot, talk to your doctor. beyond the time period, most people, and mostly women 18 to 48, those are the six patients who ended up getting blood clots, the rest of the people seems to be safe and still has pooven to be a safe vaccine. >> dr. torres, how does this play out, how long will this pause be and what do you expect will be the impact? again, it's less than one in a million chance right now based on the numbers we have, 6 million out of 7 million. what will be the impact on vaccine hesitancy? >> i think the hesitancy will
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unfortunately go up a little bit because of this. when people start hearing this, they start pulling back saying do i need to worry about these vaccines? like i said, it's a very, very low number. 99.99% of the people are doing fine with these drugs. it's saving lives, these vaccines and proven to be safe. when you do hear about this, it does cause some people to cause and think should i be getting this or look for a different type of vaccine? they're not going to have people get the vaccine again until they're sure they understand fully why this is happening and they still can't directly relate the clots to the vaccines but they're certainly going to look at that to see if that is happening. >> doctor, i remember back in the early 2000s i had a horrible back pain. i had surgery and there was something on the market called bextra that was a great anti-inflammatory that helped me get better.
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they took it off the market, again, because there small incidents and at the time i remember thinking they were so small, i couldn't understand why the fda had removed it from the market. could you explain the cost/benefit analysis that the fda and other regulatory agencies go through doing that cost benefit analysis? in normal times, if you're talking about an anti-inflammatory or in these very extraordinary times when we're battling a pandemic? >> joe, you bring up a great point because the fda is very good at looking at these and saying, you know, are we looking at side effects we need to be concerned with? every medicine can give you reactions and side effects. that's just the bottom line to taking anything. they look at them and say, do the benefits of the medicine outweigh the risks of the side effects or potential reactions? in cases like the medicine you're talking about or in cases like the johnson & johnson vaccine at this moment in time, there are alternatives they can
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use. they look at the alternatives and say those are going out there in enough volume we can go ahead and pause this for a second and restart it when we find out how safe it is. same thing with the medicine you were talking about, back then there were other medicines we can use to treat pain. don't need this one. even if it's a very, very small risk of issues, we want to make sure in the overabundance of caution, which is what the fda is great at, we don't harm people and put out medicines that are extremely safe. the fda is known for being able to do that and making sure those medicines past muster. >> we initially had you booked today for your book. let's talk about that and how you're preparing your readers for just about everything. >> and this book is just that, it prepares readers for just about anything that can happen. the main way i do that in the book, i give them overall themes. in addition to going down, talking about anything from the pandemic to avalanches, mudslides, earthquakes, even
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bear attacks, how you can survive those. in that moment's time you're not going to be able to whip out the book and figure out how to do it. it gives you overall basic themes and those are essentially boiling down to a few points. number one, have a will to survive. make sure you have a reason to get back to your loved ones and reason you want to get past that situation. number two is take a moment to think about where you are, just a few seconds to collect your thoughts before you start doing anything because that's when panic can ensue and you can start doing things in the wrong fashion. number three is just have situational awareness. as i mentioned in the book many, many times, keep your head on a swivel. that was a lesson my dad drilled into me, military drilled into me and i drilled into my kds and i can't year emphasize that one. >> and as a tour and veteran in iraq, you know what it's like to be on the frontlines. there's so much practical advice in this book, i love it. one i have to ask about, the
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first person he or she has to do when he or she walks into a mall, what? >> when you walk in a mall, it's usually to shop. but in situations like that, you have to think about getting out of situations if something happens. typically it's common if we walk into a north entrance to a mall and we go all the way to the south side of the mall to do shopping, if something happens instinctively we want to get back to the north entrance because that's where we came in. but there will be other instances where you want to get out, god forbid, an attack of some sort. so look around, see where the exits are. the i do the same thing with my kids in theaters, if something happens, a fire breaks out, what exit would you take? typically it's something behind you that you have not noticed. head on a swivel again. look around, figure out where the exits are. don't take a lot of time and be
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paranoid but understand and get out where you have to. >> it's an important update because the guidance joe gave me instinctively when you walk in a mall is look for the cinnabon, extra frosting on top. icing. >> that's number two, definitely number two. >> before we let you go, you say you have to pack a backpack. what should be in that survival kit? >> this could be individualized for people and families. you have a first aid kit, meals in there, especially dehydrated foods you can get to later, especially if you're on the run let's say. trash bags, water is important. especially in your house. you want i gallon per person per day. and don't forget the can opener. there's nothing worse than having a can with no way to open it. you start looking at rocks or anything else to smash it and those typically i don't work. >> the new book, "doctor's disaster guide to survive
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everything that life throws your way." dr. torres, we thank you very much. that does it for us this morning. kasie hunt picks up the coverage right now. good morning, i'm kasie hunt filling in for stephanie ruhle. it's tuesday, april 13 and and we're going to start with breaking news in the fight against the coronavirus. this morning we're learning the fda and cdc are relding health agencies pause administering the johnson & johnson vaccine while they investigate concerns about blood clots among a handful of people who got the shots. i want to bring in nbc's tom costello right away to help us sort through all of this. tom, this is, of course, news for millions of americans who have already taken the j&j vaccine, it's likely very alarming. there are likely people who have appointments today. how is this going to affect the vaccination effort overall and what do we know about how we got here? >> let's make it very clear, we're only talking about the j&j vaccine. we're notal

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