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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  April 8, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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friends, then maybe we need to have a different kind of conversation about who joe manchin is. >> well said. brandon wolf, an important day for you with us this evening. thank you so much. that is tonight's reidout. "all in with chris hayes" is next. it starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> does matt gaetz have anything to worry about? >> that is such a -- breaking news out of florida. >> i'm sure matt gaetz doesn't feel comfortable today. >> what does it mean that a former republican charged with sex trafficking and tied to matt gaetz is seeking a plea deal with prosecutors? the latest reporting and former congresswoman katie hill on what she calls her unlikely friendship with matt gaetz and
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why she wants him held accountable now. plus, the new transportation secretary, pete buttigieg, on the fight for an infrastructure bill. another dramatic day in court for the prosecution in the chauvin murder trial. as vaccinations continue for yours truly and more, why the global surge in coronavirus should worry us all. "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. well, today was a bad day in the life of florida republican congressman matt gaetz. it has everything to do with this guy, you might recognize him. his name is joel greenburg. we kind of just met him in the media. he's the former seminole county tax collector in florida. one of the reasons he no longer holds that position is because he was indicted and later charged with a slew of counts tied to stalking, illegally obtaining personal information, identity theft, wire fraud, and sex trafficking of a 17-year-old girl.
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and it was that sex trafficking investigation into joel greenburg, as nbc news reported, that led to the separate justice department investigation of congressman matt gaetz for possible sex trafficking of a 17-year-old. today in orlando, florida, there was a status update in his case where his lawyers said greenberg is now expected to plead guilty. he's likely to face 12 years in prison according to "the new york times" and legal experts said if mr. greenberg had hope of reducing that sentence, he would have to cooperate with the justice department. it is not for certain he's going to plea and cooperate, but he does, well, that could be extremely bad news for one matt gaetz. here's joel greenberg's lawyer today. >> does matt gaetz have anything to worry about? >> does matt gaetz -- that is such a --
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>> when it comes to what happened today in court. >> does he have anything to worry about? and you're asking me to get into the mind of matt gaetz, right? >> from your mind. >> from my mind. >> based on what your client said. >> based on what my client does. see, if i thought if i kept talking and talking and avoided these questions -- i'd have to say i'm sure matt gaetz isn't feeling comfortable today. >> they go back a little bit. here they are posing together in 2018. here they are with donald trump's longtime political ally, roger stone a year earlier. greatest gaetz and greenberg and another man posed in front of the house in 2018. last week "the daily beast" reported on the text messages that led the feds to matt gaetz which revealed he accompanied
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him on an unusual nighttime visit to the office where he was making fake i.d.s. on his way out of being in this office, he's going in this office in the middle of the night. greenberg forgot to set the alarm. that raised a red flag for the assistant branch manager who runs the office who shows up to the office on monday and was surprised to find expired driver's licenses scattered all over the desk instead of the appropriate disposal basket. she told her boss, who sent joel greenberg this text, quote, did you happen to visit the lake mary office on the weekend? greenberg responded, yes, i was showing congressman gaetz what our operation looked like. did i leave something on? okay, so that's -- i don't know. that seems pretty sketchy. you are the county tax assessor, and you leave a bunch of i.d.s
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all over the place? among the charges against greenberg is the alleged sex trafficking of a 17-year-old girl . that same girl that matt gaetz is reportedly being investigated over. investigators also believe the two men were involved in multiple women online. according to "the new york times," they had fine travel, dining, and allowances. greenberg introduced the women to gaetz who also had sex with them. if greenberg is interested in cooperating with prosecutors, and he indicated he's going to plea, he might have a lot of dirt on gaetz, maybe. now, gaetz has denied all wrong and says he's never been involved with an underaged girl, has never paid for sex, has never been on websites like the one mentioned above and he, quote, refutes the allegations completely.
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that brings us to another florida man i'd like to introduce you to. we met him last night briefly. dr. jason pirazolo. federal investigators are looking to a trip to the bahamas that gaetz and the doctor and weed entrepreneur took together in late 2018 or early 2019 and believe the doctor allegedly paid for travel expenses, accommodations, and female escorts which could be trafficking under a law. the doctor has declined to comment on the allegation. gaetz, who suggested the trip was a vacation between consenting adults, would not necessarily have had to pay the women directly. again, if he knew they were being paid that, supposes him to potential charges. then there's this from cbs news. investigators want to know if gaetz was accepting escorts in exchange for political access or legislative favors. in 2018, the doctor appeared on the podcast of the cannabis
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website "ganja-preneur" and said this. >> it's very, very difficult to study this. the american marijuana physician association, we always will support more research. in fact, congressman matt gaetz is in the process of working on legislation up in washington, d.c., that will help facilitate research on the nationwide level. and we should see a lot of good benefit from them. >> yes, matt gaetz, champion of ganjapreneurs everywhere. here he is going greeted by governor ron desantis. and that guy, dr. jason pirazzolo. >> well, i have pulled up emails i had with the doctor and matt gaetz just today from two years ago when i was trying to understand why matt gaetz -- and
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i don't know if this has been reported -- tried to make the doctor florida's surgeon general, even though his expertise was medical marijuana at the time. that didn't pan out. as a consolation prize, he got to be a member of the orlando airport board and controlled $2 billion worth of contracts. >> when you look at the joel greenberg situation, that's the seminole county tax assessor who's been indicted and might be pleaing, and you look at the doctor or weed entrepreneur, it sure seems like it was not so crazy for matt gaetz who reportedly sought a blanket proactive pardon from the trump administration before trump left office. >> but matt gaetz didn't get that pardon and he faces legal exposure from a lot of directions. in fact, just moments ago, "the daily beast" peeled back another layer of the story reporting, quote, in two late-night venmo
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transactions in 2018, he sent joel greenberg $900. the next morning over the course of eight minutes, greenberg used the same app to send three young women varying sums of money. in total the transactions amounted to $900. nbc news has not verified this information. it was just published 15 minutes ago. gaetz acknowledges the investigation but denies the allegations. "the daily beast" says they asked for a response and requested more details on the times and amounts being discussed so we can review any details with our lawyers. when the daily beast political investigations reporter jose pallierly broke the story, he joins me now. so this has to do with joel greenberg, the individual who had a status conference today, who appears like he's going to plea. we don't know that for sure. walk us through what your reporting shows. >> so in all of this, what we've
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heard is that there's a federal investigation that extends to the congressman, right? key to that would be any evidence of payments that would have been made from that congressman to his friend, this tax collector in florida. now, what we have gotten ahold of at the daily beast are proof of venmo payments that matt gaetz did way back in 2018 -- and it's worth telling the story. overnight, late at night, the congressman sends two separate payments via venmo to his friend. the first one is titled "test." the second one says "hit up" and it names a person we've now determined is a teenage girl. this is pivotal because hours later, as we reported, joel greenberg turned around and ultimatum $90,000 payments to three women. this detail is huge. what we were able to find is one of those young women is now a porn star. we have not revealed her name because she was so young at the time. but what my colleague and i have
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been able to do is get ahold of financial payments that directly tie matt gaetz to joel greenberg and very quickly turn around and have girls' names on them. >> okay. so there's a bunch of stuff here. let me just sort of take them in turn. obviously under the law it is illegal to pay for sex. matt gaetz says he has never paid for sex, right? but it doesn't get you out of legal jeopardy if your buddy pays for sex and then you pay your buddy the same a. i'm not saying that's what happened here, there seems to be a case if your reporting is true it did. but from a legal exposure standpoint, if someone pays for sex and you pay them, you're not off the hook, correct? >> that's right. that's part of a conspiracy. now, what we have here, and it is worth going through the detail. we got hold of venmo payments. as anybody who uses venmo knows, when you pay anyone anything,
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you have to explain what that thing is for. we have to ask, why would a sitting congressman be making two payments, one of which says to hit up, it says "hit up" and it mentions are girls name, a name that hours later receives money from that same person who got that money. and so that's what we got here. we got venmo transactions that definitively tie him to them. we have more coming because we don't just have these financial transactions. >> well, what do you have? >> well, what we've got are lots of sources with direct knowledge of joel greenberg and his behavior. and so in the coming days, we'll be coming out with more. but right now this is just the start. i mean, what we've got with these venmo payments are -- we got dates, we got amounts, and we got people's names. it's worth noting that until now, this federal investigation extends to matt gaetz through his connection with joel
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greenberg, but we're looking at venmo payments that are in the hands of federal investigators themselves. >> okay. now the second part of this. this is about payment for sex allegedly right, through an intermediary. the second is the age of consent. i mean, to my mind, the most by far troubling accusation here is sex trafficking of a minor, but the paying of a 17-year-old for sex, right, a minor, a girl, underage. do we know the ages -- >> it's a 33-count indictment. federal investigators said he engaged in sugar daddy relationships. if you look at these transactions, when someone makes a venmo transaction, they have to explain what it's for. in the memo for what it's for, joel greenberg wrote tuition and school to these girls that he's paying the very next day after receiving this money from the
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congressman. >> final question. do we know the age of the girls that he is paying and memoing it with tuition and school? >> it appears that one of them, which later became a porn star, she had just turned 18 just months earlier than that. we haven't been able to determine the ages of the other girls, but we have so many venmo transactions with so many girls' names, we're trying to go through it now. but i can tell you most of the women whose names we know were extremely young. we're talking about 18, 19 years old at colleges like ucf and others in that area. and so, no, we can tell from the venmo transactions, the social media accounts we've been looking at that these were all young women, extremely young women. >> all right. jose pallierry, a lot more coming. thank you for sharing your reporting with us tonight. >> thank you, chris. so back in 2019, then
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democratic congresswoman katie hill resigned from congress after revelations of an inappropriate relation with someone who worked on her campaign. that relationship was exposed in an awful way in nude photos that were leaked to and then published in a british tabloid without katie hill's consent. hill sued that tabloid for violating california's revenge porn law. yesterday she lost the suit and plans to appeal. katie hill also struck up what she called an unlike in relationship with matt gaetz. the two kept in touch in 2020 despite his relationship with donald trump, but their relationship petered out after the january 6th insurrection. in a new piece in haven'ty fare, katie hill if the report is true that he engaged in the practice he defended me from and should resign immediately and she joins
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me now. it's great you have to on the program, katie. i wonder if you would maybe sort of talk about your relationship, friendship with matt gaetz, what you make of all this now. >> yeah, i mean, look, we became friends because we served on the same committee and we were about the same age. he was friendly to me when i was a new lawmaker. but when it really mattered, when i was feeling particularly abandoned by the people within my own party, and when i felt just betrayed and alone and disgusted with myself, it matters a lot that somebody stands up for you. i don't know how many people have been in a situation like that where anybody is standing up for you feels like a big deal, but it gets a lot of points. with all of this coming out, i think people can certainly say that i have maybe not made the best choices when it comes to my relationships with men. i never had a real relationship
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with matt gaetz, but regardless, i feel betrayed by him and i have to wonder about his motivations for defending me in the first place. you know, i think that what's so gross is to see all of this coming out. each one of these accusations or allegations or charges that are coming out, it's like earned resign immediately. the ethics committee should be opening an investigation immediately. for some reason, they haven't, when they opened one on me based on a facebook post from my bitter ex-husband. who do the double standards end? within my lawsuit, it is okay -- they're saying it's okay for any person, any woman who runs for office, opposition research firms can go to their exes and say, hey, we'll pay you if you give us nude photos are so-and-so running for office. they can give those photos to the daily mail or other
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publications and it's free game. it's free speech and it means it's wide open. it's just like, horrifying that this is what the reality is we're looking at for women who are running for office as compared to men who honestly gaetz could probably get indicted and run for re-election and still win. we had that with duncan hunter. i was, like, bewildered. >> your point about the double standards, just for folks to remember, you resigned shortly thereafter the photos were leaked and there were allegations of an improper relationship with a campaign staffer. you know, we're in a territory, i think, by any objective metric that gaetz denies, but were it to be true -- >> way worse. >> yes, way worse. but in a different universe, honestly, than what was with you. we should say that the thing
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he's been casually doing, just showing pictures of sexual con quests to members of the house floor it's not illegal, but it's gross and it's sort of part of the same culture, i think, that produces an appetite for the publishing of photos of you that you're suing over. >> 100%. it's commoditize women's bodies and making it that we don't have any ownership of it, that other people do, specifically men do. we are simply there for their pleasure and enjoyment and entertainment, and that's it. we don't have any, you know, autonomy beyond that. that's one of the reasons before the lawsuit i have focused so much time and energy on getting an amendment into the recently passed violence against women act. the amendment would make it
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federal law that revenge porn is illegal. there's this patchwork of laws, the mere fact that it's not a federal law makes it so internet companies are less incentivized to do anything about it and the media companies would have to think twice about publishing those images if it was a federal law. but that is something that matt gaetz voted against too. he voted against the violence against women act and here we are taking this to the senate. it's going to take 60 votes, and by god f we can't find ten republicans to vote with us on a violence against women act that includes an amendment to make it so women's nudes can't be shared without their consent, where are we even as a country? i guess we've all been asking that question for, you know, quite some time at this point, but it just shows you how far we still have to go for women in america to even be seen as equals. >> katie hill, it's always a
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pleasure to talk to you. i appreciate you coming on tonight. thank you very much. >> thanks for having me. so, so far the biden administration's big signature achievement has been the covid relief package. they passed it last time. the money has gotten into people's pockets and bank accounts and it's working through the system. it's worth noting that bill was extremely popular when it passed. 70% of americans supporting the bill, which is huge in a divided country. so then the question, of course, is how are you going to follow that up? what's the encore? maybe the most obvious answer is to do something else that's super popular. it looks like the white house has found that next thing. secretary of transportation pete buttigieg on the incredibly strong polling on their big infrastructure push next. steel workers and steam fitters your country is calling you to rebuild america. to create a cleaner,
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the idea of infrastructure has always evolved to meet the aspiration of the american people and their needs. and it's evolving again today. we need to start seeing infrastructure through its effect on the lives of working people in america. >> here's a thing about joe biden's $2 trillion infrastructure plan. people like it a lot. a new poll out yesterday shows that 60% of voters support the plan, and support for the individual items in the plan are even more popular. even the one republicans don't count as real infrastructure such as care giving.
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65% of voters said they support funding biden's plan through taxation of corporations. the person tasked with doing just that, the new secretary of transportation, pete buttigieg, who joins me now. great to have you on the program, secretary. let's start with the polling. do you think the popularity of this puts political pressure on republicans or have you learned from the covid relief package that they are viewed essentially as independent of that kind of thing. >> as we've learned, just because something has huge bipartisan support among the american public, doesn't mean the same thing is going to happen here in washington. i do think the latest numbers about the popularity of the proposals will be helpful in getting the plan through, especially the fact that it's not just as a whole as a package that americans like it, but it's the individual pieces too. you sometimes hear opponents
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saying, well, you're relying on this popular thing to sneak that unpopular thing through, but the truth is all around these are good policies. and i think that's why they command such overwhelming support. as you know, again, getting washington to catch up to the american people isn't always automatic, but i do think it's going to be helpful in our continued outreach to republicans, asking them in good faith what changes they would make that might make it better. >> senator marcia blackburn of tennessee tweeted that biden's proposal is about anything but infrastructure. $400 billion towards elder care. i was obviously horrified to think you would try to hoodwink americans into support elder care, is that true? >> so guilty as charged. we are supporting elder care, care giving economy, making it easier to age in place and have community-based care because having that kind of infrastructure in place is part of what makes it possible for
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americans to thrive. not sure why that's being singled out given that it is something that the american people believe we ought to do, but as somebody who wants to put us on the spot defending that, that's a job i'm happy to take up. >> so let's talk about the more -- there's a bunch of different aspects to this. you're the secretary of transportation. that looks over the interstate highway system. there's a lot of concern, i think. i've reported on this through the years, right, particularly with climate activists about the ways in which our infrastructure conceptions, the structure of the gas lien tax, highwayc and demands for that tends to lead to fossil fuel production, building more roads and producing more congestion. that's a trajectory we've been on for decades. do you see it as a sort of continuity of what we've done before? >> no. this is definitely a bill that looks to the future and recognizes the future isn't
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going to look like the past. every great infrastructure vision has done that from the highway system under eisenhower back through transcontinental railroad, it's about imagining more possibilities and recognizing change. you can't separate climate from transportation because transportation is the single biggest sector contributing to greenhouse gases in our economy. to me that just means we get to be the biggest part of the solution if we get it right and the choices we make matter. there was a time when everybody believed that the best way to deal with a congested road was to add more lanes. sometimes that might be true, but sometimes you just get more cars and more congestion. we have to create alternatives, make it easier to get around in a vehicle and easier to get around without a vehicle. that's what america does with transit and other support. >> what do you think about the tax side of this? i mean, obviously this is not --
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there are pay-fors on this, the corporate tax rate being raised back up. old testaments that can be the stumbling block sermon with republican support but becomes a crow bar for them to pry away support from it among the populists. how important is the tax side of this to the package? >> again, one of the really important things to point out here is that americans actually like this package even more when you explain how we're going to pay for it. the president made it clear that this ought to be paid for. this plan does that. all we're doing is asking corporations to pay not even high taxes, just regular taxes. 28%, that's loner it's been for most of our lifetimes. most of my lifetime the corporate tax rate has been at 35%. if corporations can handle 35%, surely they can handle 28%. of course the reality is corporations have been paying zero, is closing the loopholes
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is just as important as the rate. taken together, it's a fair way to pay for this plan. i'll also say that the truth is, even though, of course, there are incentives to lobby against it if a company is benefiting from the loopholes, the truth is business is going to benefit from a more competitive economy with good infrastructure just like all of us are going to benefit from it because it's going to make us stronger. >> secretary of transportation, pete buttigieg, great to have you on the program. come back anytime. i appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. coming up, prosecutors in the trial of derek chauvin called a medical expert to the stand today. his testimony reportedly had jurors hanging on his every word. what he had to say about floyd's cause of death next. you need only the freshest milk and cream. that one! and the world's best, and possibly only, schmelier. philadelphia. schmear perfection. i've got moderate to severe plaque psoriasis.
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a little preparation will make you and your family safer in an emergency. a week's worth of food and water, radio, flashlight, batteries and first aid kit are a good start to learn more, visit i should warn you that the details in the trial of the police officer charged with the murder of george floyd have been disturbing and heart wrenching
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every single day. tonight's new different. the lawyers defending the minneapolis police officer, derek chauvin, have spun a counternarrative about george floyd, that he was overdosing on illegal drugs, suffering from heart disease, and those are the real reasons he died, not that derek chauvin pressed his knee on floyd's neck for those infamous 9:29. today an expert witness for the prosecution named dr. martin tobin, a pulmonologist explained in clear and devastating detail how he believes chauvin caused floyd's death. >> the toe of his boot is no longer touching the ground. this means that all of his body weight is being directed down at mr. floyd's neck. we're taking half his body weight plus the weight of his -- half the gear, and all of that is coming directly down on mr. floyd's neck. it's like the left side is in a
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vice. it's totally being pushed in, squeezed in from each side, from the street at the bottom and then from the way the handcuffs are manipulated. it was almost to the effect as if a surgeon had gone in and removed the lung, not quite, but along those lines. there was little opportunity for him to be able to get any air to move into the left side of his chest. >> dr. tobin also gave heartbreaking testimony describing george floyd's last moments alive. >> you can see his eyes. he's conscious. and then you see that he isn't. that's the moment the life goes out of his body. >> one of the most striking things about that testimony today was just how definitive
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the doctor was which may be subsequently in the jury's decision but the public record, how we understand the horror of what happened to george floyd. shanna lloyd is a civil rights attorney and joins me now. shanna, i found the testimony today as powerful as any i've seen partly because it just reacquainted us with one of the most awful spectacles any of us have witnessed recently. from a legal perspective, did you find it effective? >> i found it wildly effective. i think this was an expert who did something that most expert witnesses have trouble doing, which is connecting with the jury. he engaged them. they were following his every word. and he clarified what everyone's been watching this video to see. when was the moment that george floyd might have passed? he identified it and was definitive about it and that's going to be a moment that sticks with this jury when they go into
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deliberation. >> i feel like there's an arc here, not even talking about the jury, but public understanding, because we all saw the video, which is to see the video and say, oh, my god, he snuffed that man's life out. and then there was a kind of counternarrative that got spun up by people, apoll gists particularly. oh, he had covid months earlier. it was this, it was that, it wasn't this thing. and to have tobin just say, no, the thing you saw is what you saw i found profoundly powerful. >> it was impactful not only for the jury but the general public. when we see this video, we're all looking to see exactly when and how, how long was he there. for him to say it was minutes before chauvin got up, he identified the exact moment. it's profoundly tragic and actually very sad. >> there's this moment too.
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one of the things that i think that, again, sort of apoll gists here have been spewing over the past year and the defense team too, that there was some other but for a cause in a health sense of what happened to george floyd, this is tobin saying that, look, a healthy person, this would have happened as well. take a listen. >> a healthy person subjected to what mr. floyd was subjected to would have died as a result of what he was subjected to. >> that doesn't leave a lot of room for ambiguity, it strikes me. >> it doesn't. he made a clear, divisive argument, no matter whether it was the neck or shoulder, he had too much weight on his ability and his constricting his ability to breathe. he identified the moment in which george floyd passed. and he was very clear that no matter all these other things, covid, the drugs, it was clear
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to him that this was a lack of oxygen that caused him to pass. >> just as a final note here, it struck me as bizarre in some ways this kind of grasping at straws to say, well, there might have been drugs in his system or he had covid or something. if you kneel -- put your knee on someone's neck and they die, like, you can't turn around and say, well, maybe it was something else. we all saw what you did. how much legal significance is there to that? >> i think there's going to be a lot of legal significance to that because the charges require no intent, but that each of them requires that you were either doing something that was imminently dangerous to others or you were trying to inflict substantial bodily harm. any way you slice it, putting a knee on someone's neck for that length of time, you knew, you were trained that this is a move that could be very dangerous, it
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was not to be done for a long time, so that's going to speak to the charges when the jury goes back to deliberate. >> shanna, that was extremely exceedingly clear, and i appreciate you helping us. >> thank you. ahead, while u.s. vaccination rates continue to rise, a reminder, the pandemic is not over yet. the coronavirus mutation that is absolutely hammering brazil coming up. time for grilled cheese. ♪ ♪ after we make grilled cheese, ♪ ♪ then we're eating grilled cheese. ♪ ♪ because it's time. ♪ ♪ yeah. ♪ ♪ time for grilled cheese. ♪
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pro-vaccine subculture springing up in the booming demand for i got the vaccine gear on etsy. others telling their friends about which vaccine is better. even jerry fallwell is posting a selfie on instagram reading i got my covid-19 vaccine and a caption reading, quote, got the first moderna vaccine today. please get vaccinated so our nut case of a governor will have less reason for mindless restrictions. hey, reverend. whatever it takes, man. whatever it takes to get as many people vaccinated as possible no matter their beliefs or politics or anything. this is where the u.s. is right now. we're currently averaging 3 million doses every day. i didn't really know if that was going to happen or be possible. dr. hotez told me a few weeks or months ago this was our goal. we're there right now. it's still going to take us another three months until american adults are immunized enough to break the back, slow
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spread, which is what we're all focused on. it's important we get that as quickly as possible because we are still, still, still averaging 65,000 new cases every day across the country. i mean, right now michigan is approaching record levels of new cases every day. look at that. that peak is getting up higher than they've been. which is a reminder the pandemic is not over yet. we're close, but we're not there yet. also, there's some very worrying signs around the rest of the world that could seriously derail all of our progress against the virus. that's next. derail all of our progress against the virus. that's next. il all of our progrs against the virus. that's next. it's the most studied eye vitamin brand. if it were my vision, i'd look into preservision. only preservision areds2 contains the exact nutrient formula recommended by the nei to help reduce the risk of moderate to advanced amd progression. i have amd. it is my vision so my plan includes preservision.
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the first time in this entire pandemic the united states is a top performer, a world leader in vaccination. the distribution of vaccines in other parts of the world has been wildly uneven. in brazil, where far right president jair bolsonaro and donald trump mocked mask wearing, only 3.8% of the
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population is fully vaccinated. the country is having arguably the worst outbreak anyone has seen yet anywhere. surpassing 4,000 deaths today alone. that would be the equivalent of like 6,000 a day here, which we never hit, thank god. reuters reporting that sao paulo is preparing plans for a vertical cemetery crypt with 26,000 drawer-like graves. now the dominant strain of the virus in brazil is a variant called p.1. it is infecting people who already had covid. tragedy unfolding in brazil really highlights the fact that we need to vaccinate everyone across the planet and fast because it's unbearable both morally and from a public health perspective to let this thing rage and mutate throughout the world. jennifer nuso focuses on
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pandemic preparedness, outbreak protection and response. really good to have you on the program. i guess first let's start with brazil. i am -- it's very hard to read the news there. we've been following very closely here on the staff, and it's about as bad as we've seen anywhere. what do you make of this? how much do you ascribe this to this new variant? >> it's absolutely awful and heartbreaking. it frankly didn't have to happen. yes, the variants are not good. the variants are making our lives harder, and it's making it harder to control this virus. but really, the trouble that we're seeing in many countries was just a failure to take the threat of covid seriously. you heard -- you talked about the lack of masks and the embrace of false securers, but there was also an attempt to pursue that very, very flawed herd immunity strategy which is to let the virus rip through the country, and now we're seeing the consequences of it. not just in terms of high cases
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and death, but also the emergence and spread of variants that threaten the rest of the world. >> we've got a situation right now where there is incredible inequality in vaccine access, vaccine distribution. you've got israel is sort of leading the world, and the uk, u.s., chile doing quite well. and if you look at a place like brazil or india, right, these are enormous country, you know, over a billion people, 1.2 or 3 billion people between those two countries alone with very, very low access. what has to happen to get them what they need to have numbers that look more like us or the uk? >> well, i mean, first of all, the united states and the uk, israel, we're in a much different situation than the rest of the world right now because we have been able to roll out vaccines in sufficient quantities. we're not even where we need to be yet, but we're in a much better place than many other countries are now. some countries sort of assumed they had escaped the worst of it
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are seeing the reality that this pandemic is very much not over. so what we need to do now is get more vaccine. we simply don't have enough supplies in the world. india having trouble right now is bad news. not just for india, but also for the rest of the world because it is a major manufacturer of vaccines. and many countries had counted on vaccines coming out of india that now there is a question about how much will actually be available. so the u.s. i think has to lead a global effort to make more vaccines. i think we can help coordinate some of the already global supply chain, help manufacture it in multiple places. we just simply need to make more. >> in terms of the u.s., where we are in the u.s. right now, i think people are a little confused about where we're at right now. so at one level, the vaccination rates are very good and encouraging, and it's exciting to see people getting vaccinated and starting to have things like being inside for easter with vaccinated family members and all these things we haven't done for a year, and people posting
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their selfies, their little dances, but at the same time, cases are going up. hospitalizations are going up. and there is this worry are we in a fourth wave? and what will that look like? or will its effects be mitigated by the fact we have so many people in long-term care facilities and people over 65 with antibodies now? >> well, we still have dangerously high levels of cases occurring every day. so we are clearly not out of the woods. the fact that any states are seeing an increase right now when we have vaccines on hand that can help reduce the number of cases and prevent severe illnesses and deaths is of course worrisome. i am, however, optimistic that if we keep up the pace that we have been basically employing to vaccinate people, and i think it's been good news that we are now continuing to expand eligibility for vaccinations, but right now we're quite worried about an uptick in hospitalizations among people who had previously been too young to be vaccinated.
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expanding eligibility and continuing to get vaccines in arms as quickly as possible i think puts news a better situation. so i'm a bit hopeful that we can avoid any kind of serious fourth wave or fourth surge. i don't think it's going to rival what we saw over the holidays. that said, you know, nothing is inevitable here. and we do have to be cautious and continue to take precautions until the majority of us are protected with vaccine. >> you know, there has been sort of debate both among sort of mathematical modelers, com computational biologists about what point you start to see herd immunity. there is discussion whether a place is really ravaged with antibodies, can independent vaccines produce enough protection that it would be hard to have another massive outbreak in that area. we've seen with israel, which has had the most effective vaccination program in the world, i think it would be fair to say within israel proper
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that, you know, around 50%, like their case numbers started to go down. i wonder does that resolve the question? do we have a better sense? that doesn't mean you have herd immunity. that doesn't mean you stamped out the virus. but is there a number you're looking at for our level to see the case numbers start to come down dramatic? >> i'm not looking for a number. i think the number is going to be dependent on the location and the degree of connectivity and how many interactions people have. so it's going to be different for different communities. but what i will be looking for first of all are hospitalizations continuing to decline. i think that's really our main metric at this point. have we prevented hospitalizations and deaths. if we defang this virus and take hospitalizations and deaths off the table, that changes our conversation about the virus entirely. i also want to see a decline in cases. i think israel gives us some hope that we can see that perhaps earlier than we may have thought before. again, it's going to depend. the united states is different.
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we have a different level of natural immunity because of the size of our epidemic, and we have just different patterns of connectivity. not sure exactly, but i'm going to be looking at hospitalizations and continued declines in numbers. >> all right. jennifer nuzzo, thank you so much for making time tonight. i appreciate it. that is "all in" for this evening thursday. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now with nicolle wallace in for rachel. good evening. >> hi there. thank you so much. and thank you at home for joining us this hour. i know, i know, rachel has the night off. but do not despair. she'll be back tomorrow. tonight georgia state representative park kennon. she is the lawmaker arrested for knocking on a door where the governor was signing into law a sweeping voter suppression law. this will be her first interview since the charges were dropped. we will also be joined live in just a moment by white house very adviser cedric richmond. he is here to talk about the


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