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tv   Katy Tur Reports  MSNBC  April 5, 2021 11:00am-12:00pm PDT

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good afternoon, i'm katy tur. dramatic testimony in day 6 of the derek chauvin murder trial in minneapolis. first the defense came out swinging trying to get the judge to limit the testimony from police officers about their opinions on use of force. that spat this morning may have affected the testimony, at least so far, from one of the star witnesses who took the stand today. minneapolis police chief -- the
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minneapolis police chief said the acts that chauvin took were totally unnecessary. the witnesses on the stand this morning was the doctor who pronounced george floyd dead at the hospital. >> was your leading theory of george floyd's cardiac arrest oxygen deficiency? >> that was one of the more likely possibilities. i felt that at the time, based on the information i had, it was more likely than the other possibilities. >> and, doctor, is there another name for death by oxygen deficiency. >> asphyxia. it's well known that any amount of time a patient spends in cardiac arrest without immediate cpr markedly decreases the chance of a good outcome. >> none of the officers on the scene performed cpr on george floyd. the doctor said he believed floyd's death was not likely from drug use but instead from
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suffocation or asphyxia. the defense team tried to combat that conclusion. >> so when someone ingests fentanyl, it can cause them to feel very sleepy because of an increased carbon dioxide level. agreed? >> correct. >> and that's one of the reasons, ultimately, that fentanyl is so dangerous, because it suppresses the respiratory system. agreed? >> the primary reason it is so dangerous. >> next up, as we said, was the most high-profile witness for the prosecution yet, the chief of the minneapolis police department, madera aridonda, about police policies and how chauvin violated what he was trained to do. >> as an alternative and/or the use of force, the officers shall
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announce their intent to use force, displaying an authorized weapon as a threat of force when reasonable under the circumstances. >> and i guess, is it an either/or alternative? you either deescalate or use force, and once you use force, you just give up on deescalation? >> you want to always have deescalation layered into those actions of using force. the research says people can react differently when anywhere under the use of alcohol or drugs, so you trying to get verbal commands, if someone is under the use of alcohol or drugs, it may have a different reaction to them, so that should be something you should be considering. >> the purpose of the -- i'm sorry -- of the listing of behavioral crisis as a point of
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consideration for a law enforcement officer is what? >> again, it's recognizing that when we get the call from our communities, it may not often be their best day and they may be experiencing something that is very traumatic. but we're going to respond, but we have to take that into consideration. >> after the lunch break, which is in just about 30 minutes, the prosecution continues to question the chief. we will likely hear his assessment of derek chauvin's use of force, and it could be damning. let's get right into it. joining me now is msnbc news correspondent gabe gutierrez who is in minneapolis. the host of nbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton and former investigator paul butler.
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gabe, what is this questioning leading to by the chief of police? >> reporter: as you mentioned, the prosecution is building up steam with questions of madera aridonda. as you know, this chief has been very outspoken in his criticism of derek chauvin. last summer he told me he didn't even want to be in the same room with him, didn't want to speak his name. we expect the prosecution to go directly at that. did derek chauvin violate his training? did he go further than he needed to? did he use excessive force? katy, as you also alluded to, this morning the defense tried to limit some of the police testimony, so the question will be how much will the defense object to some of this questioning? we expect some clash between the police chief and the defense attorney, potentially, as his testimony unfolds this afternoon, katy. >> paul, i want to get your take on that, because the defense is trying to argue with all of
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these police officers, they're giving their opinions. is the chief of police here giving his opinion or is he an expert witness? >> both. so this is a big deal, first of all. in most prosecutions of officers, police chiefs typically don't get involved in the trial or they seem to support the cop. so this testimony could really impact the jury. i think this strategy is to reach those jurors who may be worried that voting to convict floyd means they don't support the police, so the chief's testimony sends the message that the police aren't on trial, this is about derek chauvin and his excessive use of force which both violated the regulations of the mpd and was a substantial contributing factor in mr. floyd's death. >> paul, let me ask you this, because gabe mentioned it a moment ago, and during the interview he did with the chief of police last summer, he said he didn't even want to be in the
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same room as derek chauvin. is the defense going to bring that up? are they going to try to argue that the chief of police has animus towards the defendant? >> i don't think so. he's too strong a witness, the chief is, for that to be credible. so far the testimony is focused on training and procedure, including deescalation, how officers are supposed to defuse dangerous situations so they don't have to use force. and we know that derek chauvin flagrantly violated those procedures. before the trial the chief said he thinks derek chauvin committed murder. he won't be able to say that, but we know he has very emphatic feelings about chauvin not being a good officer, but the chief thinks he's a murderer. >> reverend al sharpton, we've been discussing this all day, that it's so unusual for a chief
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of police to testify against an officer. we just don't see it. i know you've had a lot of experience with cases just like this. what does it say to you in the broader scheme of things that this police chief is choosing to get involved and choosing to take a side against one of his officers? >> i think it is very significant. i don't think you could stress the significance too much. in the years that i've been involved in police reform, police cases, and as a national network, i can't remember a police chief getting on the stand against an indicted police officer. and we've had other policemen that have testified last week. and to have policeman after policeman and now the chief testify, it takes away the premise that they try to put on cases like this and those of us who raise questions of police
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reform that we're anti-police. how are you anti-police if the police are saying what he did was wrong? you must remember, katy, in this particular case, based on the three counts he's been indicted for, they don't have to prove intent, they only have to prove he intended to harm, or by his actions, it led to the death of george floyd, which is why the defense is trying to move to causation with drugs, because they don't have to prove that he intended to kill him, all they have to prove is that he intended on one charge to harm him, on another that what he did resulted in the death. and that's enough for this jury to convict him if that's their determination. >> on the subject of drugs, there was a moment there this morning when the doctor was being questioned, and the defense came out, paul, and said the high levels of oxygen in his blood, the reason for his death, couldn't that be attributed to
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fentanyl? and the doctor asked for a clarification but wasn't allowed to give it until the redirect of the prosecution came around. when he clarified, he basically shot down the defense's argument there. how significant will that be? >> you know, katy, after the police witnesses, this trial will be a battle of expert witnesses or the cause of floyd's death. so the prosecution is going to present doctors and others who will testify that the drugs found in floyd's system were not enough to kill him in part because he developed a high tolerance level, and the prosecution's experts will also testify that floyd's conduct in the minutes before his death is not consistent, this conduct wasn't isn't with someone who is about to die of an overdose, and we've seen the defense response. they're going to focus on floyd's preexisting medical condition and the quantity of
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drugs that floyd consumed. again, we'll have to see if that is successful. all they have to do is create reasonable doubt while closing the prosecution's case to enroll that one juror who has reasonable doubt, and that gives them a hung jury and a mistrial. that's why the prosecution is presenting all these cops and all these medical experts, because they have to reach all 12 jurors for their unanimous verdict which they obviously hope is a conviction. >> which is a high bar. reverend al sharpton, quickly, the family. how are they doing today, first off with the doctor's testimony, and secondly, seeing the chief of police testify against derek chauvin. >> i spoke with them last night. they are back in minneapolis. i'll be joining them tomorrow. we pray together just about every day and i've been out there last week. they are prayerful, hopeful, but it's painful. as much as it looks like the case is going well, they have to
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relive watching their brother, their uncle, their cousin die, narrating his death. so this is painful. but this is a solid and prayerful family, and i promise to be with them as i promised when i can to do the eulogy for george floyd. >> i imagine it's hard to hear that no one gave your family member, your loved one cpr while that person was gasping for breath. gabe gutierrez, reverend al sharpton and paul butler, gentlemen, thank you very much. with me now is floyd family attorney benjamin crump. benjamin, thank you for being with us, as always. i know you're in constant contact with the family. you're there at the courtroom right now. i'm going to ask you the same question i asked the rev just now. how are they doing with today's testimony? >> obviously, all the testimony is emotional, because to agonize and to see the video and being
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here, the defense trying to say, oh, but what officer chauvin did did not kill him, it was the trace amount of drugs in his system that kills him. they know that that's not true, but they have lived in america enough to know that when they assassinate the character of black people being killed by the police, it is something that has been successful in the past, so they are very prayerful and they are having the faith that justice will be done. >> do you want to see derek chauvin himself testify? >> well, we want derek chauvin to be held criminally liable for killing george floyd on may 25th, 2020. whether or not his attorney and he decides to testify, that's completely on him. because there is nothing he can say to justify not giving any
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consideration, any professionalism, any humanity to an unarmed, restrained man in handcuffs who was face down begging just to breathe, katy. i mean, think about that in the most basic of humanity. i just want to take another breath so i can extend my life, but the public was telling him to get the knee off my neck, everybody was said, you're killing him, but yet he put his hand in his pocket and put a smirk on his face as if this black man's life didn't matter at all. >> you know, i know you've been through these cases so many other times for years now, and i assume that you are prepping the family for how the defense will present its own arguments, how the defense will try and use the entire situation to their advantage once they get their
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full turn. what are you telling the family about what they should expect? >> you know, as we were at lunch now, we were just talking about it some more, and i know reverend al has been constantly praying for the family as all of america is praying that they get some peace, because obviously to watch your family dialogue, katy, you have no peace. we have been telling them from day one that they're going to call george floyd everything but the child of god. they're going to try to blame it on everything besides this police officer putting his knee on his neck. but at the end, everybody will know in their heart of hearts the reason george floyd died was from an overdose of excessive force from derek chauvin's knee on his neck for nine minutes and 29 seconds.
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they say the human average can only go without oxygen for 30 seconds to 90 seconds. george had to go for over 400 seconds without air. so you tell me, do you really believe, after seeing that video from the surveillance where he was laughing, talking, breathing, laughing, dancing, that he was just going to drop dead if it was not for derek chauvin torturing him to death with that knee. >> and the doctor testified that for every minute you do not give cpr, the likelihood of survival or revival diminishes by 10%, 15%, 20%. benjamin crump, thank you so much for joining us. >> the murder trial of derek chauvin remains in recess. when they resume in about 20 minutes or so, the police chief
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will be back on the stand. we'll go back inside that courtroom once it does. and a controversial new voting law made the baseball game be pulled right out of the state. >> we will not be silenced. major league baseball, coca-cola and delta may be scared of stacey abrams, joe biden and the left, but i am not. first up, though, breaking news out of florida where hundreds have been evacuated from a toxic reservoir that is on the brink of collapse. we'll take you there live. brine we'll take you there live. freedom has no limits. there's no such thing as too many adventures... or too many unforgettable moments. there will never be too many stories to write... or too many memories to make. but when it comes to a vehicle that will be there for it all.
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there is a state of emergency in florida where a toxic reservoir is on the brink of collapse. crews are racing to pump as much water out of the reservoir before that collapses. state officials are warning today of a potential second leak. this is roughly half an hour south of tampa. more than 300 homes have been been evacuated so far, and they are moving inmates out of a nearby prison from potential flood zones as well.
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with me is msnbc correspondent ellison barber. this sounds terrifying. >> reporter: they say they now have about 20 pumps up and running and they expect to double the amount of money they are draining throughout the day today. yesterday they were draining about 22,000 gallons of wastewater every minute, and they say they are starting to double that now, now that they have increased the amount of pumps they have on the ground, and more of those are operational. but the bad news is a big one. they say that inspection drones early this morning captured signs and indications of a possible second breach. listen here. >> at approximately 2:00 a.m., an infrared drone identified a signature that could indicate a
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second breach that the engineering team evacuated the site. however, we'll tell you the army corps of engineers, new engineers at the environmental protection are back at the site and they are reassessing that. >> reporter: so officials have repeatedly said their primary concern in terms of safety is a collapse and catastrophic flooding, but there are also environmental concerns here, the wastewater. while officials say most of it is safe, it does have high levels of nutrients that are known to cause high levels of algae blooms that killed fish and has devastating impacts on the tourist industry. at one point they were manufacturing fertilizer, and one concern is if we do see the wall collapse into the current leak in the south pond that that
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could potentially impact the others. officials say the wastewater, that it is not radioactive, that it is primarily saltwater with some processed water and also rainfall from over the years, but if you look at photos of these ponds, it almost looks like there is a big cement wall around them. those are actually what's known as gypsum stacks, and those are radioactive. it's a radioactive by-product that comes from manufacturing fertilizer. so the water, the wastewater is sitting inside a liner in those gypsum stacks, so there are a whole lot of concerns here that while we're being told that this is saltwater and there's not a whole lot of necessarily cause for concern with the wastewater about what the potential ramifications could be if we see those stacks collapse or just what happens if there is a collapse. a lot of unanswered questions right now and a big thing we're paying attention to, katy, is whether or not there is a second leak. >> that is a really good point. it's a lot more complicated than
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it was made out to be, i think. ellison barber, thank you so much. the capitol police is warning of a possible exodus from its ranks following the attack on the hill. officers are reeling from the friday death of another of their own, william evans, which happened less than three months after the capitol insurrection and the loss of officer brian sicknick. union leaders caution that younger officers are considering leaving the force and are calling on congress to increase security at the capitol. in a statement of support today, a spokesperson for the capitol police echoed those calls for the additional hiring and retention of officers. joining me now is nbc news capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. garrett, this happens on friday when the majority of congress was out on a recess. i wonder now that they've had a weekend to react to it what the feeling is about the security perimeter around the white house and what the capitol police force needs. >> reporter: well, i think there is going to be widespread
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agreement that the capitol police force needs to be up to and have maybe even a plussed-up version of full strength. they're 10% down on the officers that they're authorized to have even at this moment. officers have been working tons of forced overtime ever since -- really, frankly, even before january 6th just to meet their basic staffing needs here. now we're down to one level of security fencing here instead of two, but even that fencing does also require additional officers. so the need to staff up for this agency is, i think, going to be the first and foremost and least controversial element that congress will address, i suspect, more directly when they come back. >> let's talk about the other thing that is brewing in congress right now, and that is this scandal surrounding matt gaetz, the accusations surrounding matt gaetz, the very serious ones. how are his colleagues reacting to this? i know he has been defiant and says he's not resigning. he released an op-ed today
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saying this is cancel culture coming after him, that he was going to continue to fight. but what is the reaction inside the capitol to these very serious allegations? >> reporter: well, interestingly enough, largely there hasn't been, at least from the republican side. this is a situation where we have not seen fellow republicans either ride to gaetz' defense or be particularly proactive in calling for him to resign or step aside or take any other action up to this point. gaetz has very vocally defended himself, he's denied all these allegations, as you pointed out, including in that op-ed out today. today he also had a former staffer hold a press conference down in florida that was a bit of a spectacle in which the staffer said he was contacted by the fbi about something he denied, and essentially said if the fbi is fishing like this with me, therefore, he assumes they're not telling the truth about gaetz. gaetz has made himself something of a man apart during his time in congress. he was a very outspoken defender of former president trump, but
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he's not deep with allies here on either side of the aisle, and so i think as this investigation, if indeed there is one, progresses, gaetz is largely going to be left to his own devices to both defend himself, and then short of an indictment or criminal public action taken against him, you know, we have yet to see again those kind of robust calls for him to step aside or anything of that nature. >> we'll see what happens. garrett haake. garrett, thank you so much. still ahead, fears of a fourth wave of coronavirus infections after americans traveled in record numbers over easter weekend. and the latest out of georgia where the mlb all-star game is no longer going to be in atlanta. but the governor is digging in. n ♪ ♪ - [narrator] if you're thinking about going to school online,
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of america is to stay out of politics. >> what about all the money that corporations give politicians, like mitch mcconnell? anyway. today mitch mcconnell joined the ranks of republicans to respond to baseball's decision to pull the all-star game out of georgia. that decision is the latest fallout. over the weekend the governor accused the mlb and other companies to caving to criticism from the left. >> we will not be intimidated, and we will also not be silenced. major league baseball, coca-cola and delta may be scared of stacey abrams, joe biden and the left, but i am not. >> now governor kemp is getting support from fellow republican governor greg abbott from texas. today he announced he would not
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throw out the first pitch for the home opener of the texas rangers. they are considering their own new voting restrictions. joining me now, blaine alexander in georgia and white house reporter eugene daniels. he's also an msnbc contribute -- contributor. both of you with the warning i am waiting for court to resume, so if i have to interrupt, i apologize in advance. blaine, what's the word in atlanta? >> they are taking the all-star game from atlanta, and the lead commissioner kind of said it was a herculean effort to move something like this, but they're doing it, anyway, to demonstrate their values as a league and a sport. here in georgia, there is one thing republicans and democrats can agree on, that they're not happy it's moving out of the state. yes, at the end of the day, it's going to be georgia businesses,
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georgia workers, the number of businesses and hotels near the park that will actually be suffering and feel the impact of this. but we're also seeing a very big case of finger pointing. democrats, of course, pointing at republicans saying it's the republican-led state legislature that put the state in this position, but as you just heard from georgia governor brian kemp, of course he is a staunch defender -- >> i'm sorry to interrupt. the trial has resumed and this is the questioning of the chief of police of the minneapolis police department. let's go back in. >> again, exhibit 219, which is mpd policy 5-304, and if you would take a look at the section here that's been enlarged, de-escalation tactics include but are not limited to. if you would please just summarize for the jury the different bullets that you see here. >> yes. some of the bullets here for de-escalation tactics -- >> sir, one moment.
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oh, all right. thank you. all right. please resume. >> yes, some of the de-escalation tactics that are noted here include but are not limited to placing barriers between an uncooperative subject and an officer, communication from a safe position intended to gain the subject's compliance using verbal persuasion, advisements or warnings, using verbal techniques to calm an agitated subject and promote rational decision making, calling for additional resources to assist, including more officers, cit officers and officers equipped with less lethal tools. >> cit officers are those who have been through the crisis intervention training course, is that correct? >> that is correct. >> and are minneapolis police officers, then, at the training
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center taught different techniques on how to implement this policy? >> that is correct. >> have you personally attended the training? >> yes, i have. >> did you find it useful? >> i have. >> you can remove that. we've talked a little bit, then, about behavioral crises and identifying behavioral crises. how does the minneapolis police department respond to persons in a behavioral crisis? >> one of the first important things, obviously, is trying to get as much information prior to the call as possible. but as soon as officers at least have knowledge that this could be a potential situation with that caller, this de-escalation piece should kick in and that while they may not know exactly what they're going to encounter when they arrive on the scene, this body of knowledge that they've been taught should at
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least be kind of forefront in terms of the different tools that they'll be using, possibly, to help de-escalate that situation. >> what edp, what is that acronym? >> the acronym edp is labeled throughout our minneapolis center as an emotionally disturbed person. so when our minneapolis police officers receive an edp call, that is prompting them that there is at least initial information that they're going to be responding to someone who may be in crisis. >> that's something that the officer would then be communicated by a dispatcher prior to going to the scene, correct? >> that is correct. >> however, if that information is not imparted upon them, they make their own assessment at the scene as to whether the person could potentially be an edp, is that correct? >> that is correct. >> you indicated that the minneapolis police department receives over 100,000 calls a
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year, calls for service, is that right? >> yes. >> do you have any idea how many calls for service involve people in crisis? >> i believe in 2019, minneapolis police officers responded to about 4,500 of those signified as edp calls, yes. >> now, in terms of teaching officers how to recognize a person who may potentially be in crisis and, therefore, unable to comply with commands, you placed these different signs into mpd policy. >> that is correct. >> and i'd like to direct your attention now to exhibit 231. and i ask that that be published. this is 7-809, the crisis intervention policy. it begins here, but we'll go ahead and over to page 2.
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and i'd like to highlight, please, for the jury the definition of a crisis. again, in the definition of a crisis under the mpd policy, generally speaking, we're talking about some of the same things that we saw before in the de-escalation policy, is that right? >> that is correct. >> there can be mental illness, is that right? >> yes. >> substance abuse can be a crisis or a barrier to communication, correct? >> yes. >> and same with various stressors, is that right? >> yes. >> then further, if you could emphasize the crisis intervention definition. and officers, when they either
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respond to an edp call or are aware the person may be in crisis, attempt a crisis intervention method, is that correct? >> yes. >> generally speaking, what is the officer supposed to do for a person in crisis? >> it's an attempt to de-escalate that situation. >> and the policy, then, of the minneapolis police department in handling persons of crisis, if we could look at section 3 of the policy. it would be the next page. highlight roman 3. in accordance with the minneapolis police departmental policy, how are officers supposed to encounter individuals who are experiencing a crisis? >> we really want to -- again, we want to meet people where they are. we want to bring our values, our
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principles to those situations. we recognize that oftentimes people who experiencing crisis, it is not something that they brought on themselves but they're dealing with it, so there is a sense of dignity and respect that we should be honoring when we come to those calls. and so as it's mentioned here, the values of protection, safety and sanctity of life oftentimes, again, we are that first face of government that they're going to see. that may be 3:00 in the morning. and so we have to wear many hats, but we want to be respectful in that care that we're trying to provide for that individual. >> and sometimes persons might be experiencing some sort of a breakdown that they maybe did partially bring upon themselves, is that right? >> that's correct. >> are those people still entitled to be treated in accordance with mpd policy?
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>> yes, they are. >> and this policy, again, is imparted in training at the training center by that group, is that right? >> that is correct. >> i'd like to -- if you could take that down, please -- talk to you a little bit about the officer's role as first responders in terms of providing basic medical care, all right? and so with that, can you tell the jury, are minneapolis police officers trained to provide basic medical care? >> yes, we are. >> can you please describe what level? i'm aware there are various different levels of medical care that someone could be trained in. >> so most of the department members will have at least basic training in terms of first responder, the abcs, airway,
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breathing, circulation. the effects of applying direct pressure on wounds to stop bleeding. many of the things that we will respond to, perhaps just because we're closer to a call than perhaps our ems or fire before they get there, and they obviously have a higher degree level of training, but the training that we have and that we receive, it's very vital because those seconds are vital. our officers carry tourniquets. we respond to situations where members in our community will have gunshot wounds. as a matter of fact, a couple of my officers a couple weeks ago saved a young man who was shot in the femur and was bleeding profusely. but because they got there quickly, knew how to apply that tourniquet. babies not breathing calls. our officers have saved the lives of children who are choked or what have you because they've been able to help start emergency breathing for them.
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those are some of the basic types of first aid that are -- chest compressions, those types of basic first aid. >> and are officers, then, specifically trained at the training center to provide this basic sort of first aid? >> that is correct. >> and does the minneapolis police department have a policy regarding any duty that an officer would have to apply that training to a real life situation? >> yes. we recognize again, i mentioned that we oftentimes are going to be the first ones to respond to someone who needs medical attention, and so we absolutely have a duty to render that aid. >> and that, of course, is in the policy and procedure manual, is that right? >> yes. >> if i can display exhibit 230, which is mpd policy 7-350. emergency medical response.
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and under roman i, you see that the policy is to lay out in writing the roles and responsibilities of minneapolis police department employees in incidents involving medical emergencies, is that right? >> yes. >> if we can take a look at the policy itself under roman ii, does that explain what a minneapolis police officer is supposed to do when they come upon a medical emergency or a medical emergency develops on a call? >> yes. >> what are they supposed to do? >> while awaiting ems, mpd employees assist in an individual having an acute medical crisis shall apply any necessary first aid consistent with their mpd training as soon as practical. >> that presumes they're waiting for ems or waiting for some kind of emergency services, is that right? >> that is correct. >> would it be fair to say this policy, then, is in two parts?
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the officer has to request ems or an ambulance, correct? >> yes. >> and while waiting for the ambulance, they're required to provide what medical training and skills they have to attempt to save the person? >> that is correct. >> are minneapolis police officers provided nelaxone or narcan kits? >> yes, we are. >> what are those? >> it is basically an inhaler for community members that we respond to that have an overdose. it is to give them that inhaler injection so that they can hopefully come to. and so we've -- it was a few years ago where, for the most part, the minneapolis fire department were the ones that responded to overdose and
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carried the narcan. unfortunately, our cities across the country saw an uptick in heroin/opioid overdoses. we had to make sure, again, because we're oftentimes the first ones that come across these situations, we needed to make sure that if we could save lives we were equipped with them also. >> if i could show you exhibit 229. let's publish that. that's the narcan policy 7-308. >> that's correct. >> and are officers provided training in the use of narcan in appropriate circumstances? >> yes. >> i'd like to talk to you a little bit about the use of force. does minneapolis have a written policy governing proper and
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authorized use of force? >> yes, we do. >> and is this generally covered in the 5-300 series of the policy and procedure manual? >> yes, it is. >> i'd like to discuss some of that manual with you and the policy with you at this time. if we could pull and display exhibit 216. under the purpose of the policy, which is 5-301, can you please read the first sentence under subparagraph a? >> yes. sanctity of life and the protection of the public shall be the cornerstones of the mpd's use of force policy. >> what does that mean? >> of all the things that we do as peace officers for the minneapolis police department, i mentioned that the thousands of calls that our men and women respond to. it is my firm belief that the one singular incident we will be
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judged forever on will be our use of force. and so while it is absolutely imperative that our officers go home at the end of our shift, we want to make sure and ensure that our community members go home, too. so sanctity of life is absolutely vital that that is the pillar for our use of force. >> has this generally always been the case with minneapolis use of force policy? >> it has not. >> when did that change? >> we implemented this particular one in 2016. >> has the training and use of force and application of use of force policy been imparted, including this philosophy, onto police officers in training at the training center? >> it certainly has, yes. >> does the policy itself define force? what is force? >> yes, it does. >> if we can take a look at
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exhibit 217 and publish that. if you highlight use of force, generally speaking, what is force? >> it can be any physical contact. it can be with a weapon. it could be with a vehicle, but it's any sort of physical contact that is more likely to render harm or injury to someone. >> is the use of a restraint considered force? >> definitely considered force. >> and what type of force is authorized under departmental policy? >> we operate under the conner statute, objectively reasonable force. >> if i can display exhibit 217.
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first go back to 5-303. 5-303 authorizes force, is that right? and you mentioned 60906, a state statute authorizing force under certain circumstances, is that right? >> yes. >> and the phrase that's used for the authorization of force is what type of force? >> reasonable. >> and that force can be authorized under certain circumstances, is that right? >> yes. >> so now if you would go to the next page. let's talk about the circumstances under which a police officer is authorized properly to use force. if you could highlight that.
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what are the circumstances under which an officer is authorized to use force? >> an officer is authorized to use force affecting a lawful arrest, executing a legal process, that right? >> yes. >> if we look at 217 under the definition of objectly reasonable force. can you please read that definition? >> yes much the amount and type of force that would be considered rational and logical to an objective officer on the scene supported by facts and circumstances known to an officer at the time the force was used. >> now you discussed a case, connor, the connor factors, and i'd like you to -- first of all, is the policy -- does it reference the connor factors
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that you mentioned? >> yes. >> if i could display 217, page two. we have three bullet points here under the connor factors. and that is the officer is supposed to look at the totality of the circumstances, right? >> yes. >> and the three bullets here that the officer is supposed to consider are what? >> the officer should consider the severity of the crime at issue, whether the suspect poses an immediate threat to the safety of the officers or others, and whether he is actively resisting arrest or attempting to evade arrest by flight. >> fair to say these three different considerations are things that you can attribute to the subject, correct? >> yes. >> that's the subject's conduct. not someone else's. >> yes. >> of course it has to be judged by a reasonable police officer on a scene at the time, correct?
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>> yes. >> now do you recall -- obviously you're here talking about what happened on may 25, 2020, involving george floyd. do you recall why the officers were responding to cup foods on that date, the original reason for the call? >> the original reason for the call was a response regarding a counterfeit situation at the store, at the intersection of 38th and chicago. >> and in terms of the deployment of your resources at the minneapolis police department and as chief, how do you rate i guess the severity of that offense, the seriousness of that offense? >> it would probably not rise to the level of -- particularly in light of last year the level of violent crime that we've experienced in the city.
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but it -- we would certainly respond to it, but it would not rise to the level in terms of severity of the crime here. >> now, in looking at the particular type of crime, is that one for which a suspect is typically taken into a custodial arrest? >> typically not. >> why is that? >> if it's not a violent felon, felony, we also in coordination with our jail system and our courts, there's been a shift over the years to make sure that the individuals who are going to jail are those who from a public safety standpoint need to be at least in that facility, in the county jail, and if we can properly identify and it's not a violent situation, you know, we can always charge via complaint and other things.
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so that's one of the reasons why. >> you use the phrase violent felony. what's the more important part, whether it's violent or whether it's a felony? >> violence. >> why is that? >> well, it can certainly endanger not only officers but the community. >> where something that's merely labeled a felony may or may not require a full custodial arrest. >> that is correct. >> and are minneapolis police officers trained in the use of force? >> yes. >> in the preservice, in the academy, and also in post service at the in-service training? >> yes. >> and are officers taught the standard that force must be reasonable at the time it is applied? >> yes. >> the entire time it's applied? >> yes. >> are officers taught the need assess and reassess and
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re-evaluate situations in the field? >> yes, we are. >> are you familiar with minneapolis police department's critical thinking model? >> yes. >> how are you familiar with that? >> it was something that i wanted to embark and make sure that was part of our training curriculum that also includes the aspects of procedural justice. and procedural justice is really, it's actually research and evidence-based learning that has shown that if police departments treat people with respect, give them voice, establish neutral engagements, and build areas of trust, our communities are more likely to cooperate with us, we're likely to be seen more as legitimate. it has shown that our employees come to work, their wellness is better. and so this is very important
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work. and so it's part of that procedural justice i just mentioned is part of that critical thinking, training. >> at this time, i'd ask to display only to the witness exhibit for identification 276. sir do you recognize exhibit 276 as being mpd's critical decision doing making model? >> yes. >> offer exhibit 276. >> no objection. >> permission to publish. we heard about the model. now we get to actually see it. if you could enlarge the graphic, please. so this is what the model looks like. it's sort of a wheel, is that right? >> yes. >> and the first stage of the critical thinking model, decisionmaking model is information gathering. >> yes. >> explain that, please. >> it's very vital. we rely upon trying to gather as
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much information as possible so that we can try our best to effectively go in, respond, and manage that situation. trying to gather as much information at the onset is very important, but we also need to make sure that we're continuing to try to gather as much information as we're dealing with the scene or the call. >> i see the arrow points in two directions, and one it points to the middle of the circle, voice neutrality, respect, and trust. and the other arrow points to the threat or risk assessment. let's talk about the middle of the circle first. what is that middle circle supposed to be representing? >> that's -- that's the principles really of what continues to guide us. so for example, information gathering while we may associate it specifically with receiving a 911 call and the dispatcher
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giving us information. but information gathering could be that officers come across a call that they weren't dispatched to, and they need to talk to a community member. if they don't treat that community member with respect or give them voice, it's likely that they will receive less information that will be less helpful in them resolving that call. so that voice neutrality respect and trust, that has to guide and be a part of all of that critical decisionmaking model. >> let's go to the next step that officers gathered some initial information, and now the officer is in a position to need to think about it or assess it. is that right? >> yes. >> so the next step is the threat or risk assessment. is there a difference between a threat and a risk? >> there can be in terms of -- in terms of what is being played
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out at the time. and you're constantly evaluating that. and of course the information that you're receiving which may be fluid is going to dictate that threat or risk, yes. >> and so then once the officer has made an assessment of a threat or a risk, the next step, authority to act, what does that mean? >> that may mean the officer now based upon that information that they've receivedevaluating that threat or risk, am i going to act, is this going to be a physical arrest, am i going to separate parties, am i going to -- does this require report? all of these things. so but it's giving more information for the officer to guide he or she in terms of what is the next appropriate step that they need to act and take. >> and so if we're to -- at least to this point in the model put a scenario into action, information gathering, the officer perceives that someone
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is approaching them with a weapon, like a bat, and so then they would reflect on that and determine whether or not this is a risk, it's a bat, maybe the person is at a baseball game or a threat, the bat is being brandished, correct? >> yes. >> then after that under authority to act if they've determined that this, in fact, is a risk and that they're being threatened, they would look at the authority back to the mpd policy and procedure manual. is that right? >> yes. >> under what is the use of force policy, what tools are available to me to respond here? >> yes. >> okay. the next step then after considering the authority to act, goals and actions. what is that? >> the goals -- the officer's making an assessment, so with the authority act, will an arrest resolve the situation? will separating the two parties be enough? is -- is

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