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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  March 19, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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>> we call him governor debtsantis for a reason. there should be hazmat tape around mar-a-lago right now. it's a scary situation. hopefully the good folks of palm beach county will do what they have to do, social distance, because we're on the brink of turning this around thanks to biden and the democrats, so hopefully mar-a-lago does what they need to do. >> and stay off the beaches for god's sakes. hair commercials for both of you. that is "the reidout" tonight. catch me tomorrow morning with tiffany cross at 10:00 a.m. eastern. "all in with chris hayes" starts now. tonight on "all in" -- >> what do you want to call them? >> white supremacists. >> proud boys. >> proud boys? stand back and stand by. >> four leaders of the proud boys indicted on conspiracy charges for their coordinated efforts at the capitol. and why does roger stone's name
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keep surfacing in charging documents for the rioters? then -- >> racism is real in america, and it has always been. xenophobia is real in america, and always has been. sexism too. >> a solemn day in georgia as we learn more about the victims of the attack on three asian spas. plus -- >> in our culture today, there's a desire it seems to cancel history, cancel culture. >> the fight to keep a confederate war criminal and founder of the kkk in the tennessee statehouse. and the fight against covid stalls, even as vaccinations soar. dr. fauci joins me live on what we need to do to stop a fourth wave, when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. some fascinating, revealing new federal filings unsealed today that shed new light on the january 6 insurrection. two and a half months after a mob guided by donald trump, in
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fact invited to the capitol and violently attacked the u.s. capitol, it's becoming more and more clear for many of the insurrectionists this was more than a moment of passion, this was a plan. officials estimate several hundred people actually entered the capitol, and so far there have been more than 300 arrests. in fact it's hard to keep track of, more and more and more every day. there's no question if you look at the video that we all have access to or some of these arrest records that some of the people made a spur of the moment decision to follow the crowd inside, but there were people there who had that plan from the beginning. and so today, federal prosecutors unsealed conspiracy charges against four leaders of the proud boys for their alleged role in planning the attack. you remember the proud boys, of course. they're the group that donald trump specifically refused to condemn at the first debate. >> what do you want to call them? give me a name. >> white supremacists. >> what do you want me to condemn. >> the proud boys. >> the proud boys?
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stand back and stand by. but i'll tell you what, i'll tell you what, somebody has to do something about antifa and the left. >> his own fbi director said the threat had come from white supremacists. >> remember that? the proud boys, who were told by the president to stand by, took the president at his word and they did. at least according to the indictment, the conspiracy began as early as november 3rd and it encouraged the proud boys and others to attend the stop the steal protest obtaining paramilitary gear and supplies, protective equipment and radio equipment for the january 6th attack, scheming to evade detection by law enforcement on january 6th by dressing incognito and engaging in meetings and encrypted communications in washington, d.c., on the days leading up to january 6th. on the morning of january 6th to engage in planning for the january attack. they planned the attack. the attack to stop the peaceful transfer of power. and they spent a lot of time and money doing it.
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and they are not the only ones. other new court filings and the prosecution of members of a far right militia organization known as the oath keepers are also shedding light on what prosecutors are saying was an organized conspiracy on their part to corruptly obstruct, influence and impede an official proceeding, that is congress' certification of the electoral college vote. in other words, to interrupt the peaceful transfer of power in this country, to overturn a democratic election through force and mob violence. but in an attempt to prove he was there for more legitimate reasons, lawyers for oath keeper donovan krow claim the only reason he was in d.c. was to act as private security for -- wait, what's that, long-time trump fixer roger stone? interesting. another filing by prosecutors includes a photo of two charged oath keepers, apparently standing next to stone at a book event back in december. stone of course the guy in the middle with the suspenders. it wasn't just the president
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gave the speech in which he told people to go to the capitol or that he spent a month or more creating the conditions for a violent mob to attempt to stop the peaceful transfer of power, it's that the people at the core of the conspiracy as revealed day and day in more and more charging documents are all like one note away from the president or his circle. look at this picture to see who the oath keepers were with the day before this happened. look at that, it's roger stone. and roger stone, let's be clear, is not some ancillary figure in trump world. he was trump's first political advisor. he was there when trump launched his campaign in 2015. according to federal prosecutors and to stone himself, stone played an instrumental role back channeling with wiki leaks in 2016. wikileaks who was publishing the hacked and stolen documents taken by the russian government. and stone played a role in communicating with wikileaks as part of the first effort to cheat and create an uneven
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playing field for trump's victory. it was successful, at least in the electoral college. subsequent to that let's remember roger stone lied about it to congress in order to cover up whatever he was up to in 2016, and he was convicted for those -- indicted and convicted for those lies by a jury of his peers. and then what happened? well, he went away to prison but the president intervened, first by pushing the department of justice to reduce the sentence and then commuting stone's sentence and by directly pardoning him. there was no justification for it. trump was just helping out a buddy, right? and it didn't make much sense to commute that sentence in july. it was the summer. he had to take a big political hit. but roger stone's whole life is quite proudly nothing but dirty tricks. he is the guy with the nixon nat too on his back. he is also the guy who claims credit for helping to instigate the infamous brook brothers riot back in 2000. that would be the last time that an intimidating mob of
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right-wing activists invaded a government building in order to obstruct the orderly administration of the democratic process. it's not crazy to think that is why roger stone was sprung by the president, why he was freed before the election. we don't know. stone hasn't said. donald trump hasn't said. but, you know, it's not crazy to suppose the president didn't want him on the bench. he wanted him in the game to do what he's done his entire career. remember how the slogan around january 6 was stop the steal? that's a roger stone phrase. roger stone coined that back in 2016. and so is it surprising to see roger stone, again, long-time associate of the president, the president's henchman, the guy who lied on behalf of the president who was then pardoned by the president, to see him around d.c. around the insurrection, getting security from the people prosecutors say were part of the criminal conspiracy to stop congress from doing its democratic duty? i want to bring in katie benner
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who covers the justice department, "the new york times," and who's done great reporting on this and reported the justice department was examining roger stone's possible ties to the insurrectionists last month. i want to talk about all of this. but just start with what we're learning from the court filings about the proud boys and then the oath keepers. >> sure. on the proud boys case, what we're seeing is a lot more detail about just how organized they were. as you mentioned, it shows that there were many people who decided they were going to plan a trip to washington, d.c., the day of the rally, not just to attend a rally but to impede congress' ability to finalize and certify joe biden's win. that was something they sought in encrypted signal communications. they were aware the fbi was looking for them when one of their leaders was arrested, they nuked a whole chat room saying we've got to get rid of this and start over again. they were aware they could be monitored so that was interesting to see. also we saw they raised
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thousands of dollars to come. we saw they were organized. they had equipment. so you've seen prosecutors seeding indictments with this information because it shows they're not just interested in the people and communications and chat rooms but interested in funding and who supported them. >> one of the things that's interesting when you look back at that video and some of this comes up in the filing documents in which one of the proud boys is referred to as the tip of the spear, there was a kind of vanguard in that crowd, right? there were the people that were pushing forward that were the most violent who were the most aggressive, who seemed the most intent on breaking through windows and going through. one of the things that seemed like federal prosecutors are starting to piece together is who were those people and how much they had planned this. >> yes, absolutely, to show that for them this was a mission an not just a group of people who got caught up in the frenzy. that was the vast majority of the hundreds of people inside the capitol and the vast majority of the hundreds who have been charged. but for what could be dozens of
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people, it was not a spontaneous event. it wasn't getting caught up, it was something preplanned for weeks, if not months. >> who has -- merrick garland is now at the department of justice. you cover that building and that institution. it has had a very wild last few years, i think it's fair to say. i know a lot of people inside that building who work at the department of justice. it has a very strong culture. there was a lot of anger and frustration and tension in that building with william barr of who is running point on this? because this is both an incredibly important investigation and it's also, you know, a fraught one. >> so the person who has been running point on the investigation, michael sherwin, he stepped down today. he's going back as a line prosecutor in miami, where he was working before he was detailed to washington during the trump administration. channing phillips will ultimately be responsible for the investigation. he's going to be the person signing those indictments, so it will be phillips who will be taking over. but because merrick garland is
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here, you'll see the really difficult cases now have leadership that can be not only briefed on them but weigh in. so things like se dishs conspiracy, something like charging somebody as high profile as roger stone, it's really important that the attorney general be in place because that's going to be a politically -- i won't say will, but that could be a very politically charged step. you need somebody in the attorney general's seat. >> we keep seeing roger stone popping up at the edges of these documents. we saw the photos, we know that you can draw those sort of connections. but he's showing up in these documents. what does your reporting indicate about where he sits in all of this? >> so we reported a few weeks ago that stone is somebody prosecutors began to look at and he's somebody they probably wouldn't have been able to look at if not for the fact that some of the oath keepers who were with him were later seen inside of the capitol and ultimately indicted. it gave them reason to better examine communications looking for mention of stone and to
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scrutinize stone himself because the other things that he did that day, attending the rally, making speeches standing outside the capitol. those things are not illegal and the fbi can't just bust into somebody's communications because they're standing next to a building. so that investigation is ongoing. but again, as you mentioned, i think that the julian assange case is a great thing to be thinking about when looking at this investigation of roger stone. it's really difficult to charge somebody for doing the things that we were able to see him do. in the assange case, even the prosecutors suspected he conspired with julian assange. they ultimately were never able to get there. instead what they charged him with was lying. so it is possible these are very difficult cases to make. it's possible he won't be charged, but what we know is he's being looked at. >> roger stone has been working in the shadows by his own admission for a very, very long time. he's got a little trade craft going. katie benner, thanks for sharing that great reporting. tonight, as the president
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and vice president meet and mourn with the asian american community in atlanta, nbc news is speaking exclusively to one of the families of the victims of that horrific shooting. >> what's your reaction to the way that they have handled the investigation into this shooting? >> you can't say that this isn't racially motivated. you don't kill eight people on a bad day, let alone one. >> more of what we're learning and the president's visit. that's next. arning and the president's visit. that's next.
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president biden and vice president harris traveled to atlanta today. it had been a previously scheduled trip going to the centers for disease control, which is of course down in atlanta, to mark the 100 million vaccine doses administered since biden's inauguration. that's about 40 days ahead of their target. but of course in the wake of the horrific shooting spree earlier this week at three atlanta-area spas, which left eight people dead, including six women of asian descent, biden and harris met with asian pacific leaders. they spoke afterwards. >> racism is real in america and it has always been. xenophobia is real in america and always has been. sexism too. ultimately, this is about who we are as a nation. this is about how we treat people, with dignity and respect. everyone has the right to go to
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work, to go to school, to walk down the street and be safe. and also the right to be recognized as an american. not as the other. not as them. >> hate and violence often hide in plain sight. it's often met with silence. that's been true throughout our history. but that has to change. because our silence is complicity. we cannot be complicit. we have to speak out. we have to act. >> we also learned the names of the remaining four victims today, the four asian women who were killed in two spas in northeast atlanta. they are soon chung park, suncha kim, yong ae yue and grant. grant worked as an elementary
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schoolteacher in korea before coming to the u.s. where she worked at the spa. she was a single mother to two boys, eric and randy. she liked to take them to the museum and mall and restaurants. he said she was everything you could ask for. 63-year-old yu was a massage therapist recently back to work after being laid off at the onset of the pandemic. she was excited about returning to the spa according to her sons who called her kind and deeply caring. she was always feeding friends and looking out for other with foods, gifts or even cash to help pay the rent. nbc news correspondent kathy park interviewed the son of one of the victims today and janelle ross is a senior correspondent for "time" magazine and she's been reporting on the impact of this on the asian community in atlanta and they both join me now. kathy, i want to start with you because you got to interview one of the sons today.
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what was that conversation like and how is he doing? >> chris, good evening to you. as you can imagine, he is just in shock and he is still processing this tragedy. he had a lot of requests to speak with the media and he was gracious to talk to us for a few minutes. he is grateful for the outpouring of support. he put out a go fund me page because he is on his own now, taking care of his younger brother. and finances he realized was going to be tough moving forward. believe it or not, chris, i just checked it a few minutes ago. it has now climbed to $1.7 million in less than 24 hours. this is something that is resonating all across the country. this is something that hits very close to home for the asian american community.
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i mean randy, he was very thoughtful in his responses. he is looking forward to the future, just how he is going to take care of his brother. he said when it comes to reflecting on his mom, she was almost like his best friend. he told me that she would say that she loved him all the time. she worked tirelessly. she is an immigrant from south korea. and she worked weeks on end, sometimes without a break. i mean he said it wasn't unusual for her to go several weeks working just around the clock at this spa before she finally came home and just took a couple of days to rest. so family was always first. i also asked him about the investigation. here's a little bit more about what he told me. >> what's your reaction to the way that they have handled the investigation into this shooting? >> you can't say that this isn't
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racially motivated. you don't kill eight people on a bad day, let alone one. need to focus on getting past this as fast as possible so i can at least basically try and live happy as soon as possible, otherwise she won't be able to rest as easily. >> now, chris, this young man in the wake of this tragedy showed so much strength and poise during our conversation despite this tragedy that now envelopes his life. this is something that he's going to have to deal with. you know, i'm here in the duluth area. this is an area that is filled with a lot of korean americans. i'm in a shopping center where a lot of these stores are owned by koreans and they are all touched
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by this violence. i mean i had a lot of conversations with people on the ground. people are holding back tears. they are in shock. they are in fear. and they're on high alert, chris. >> janelle, you've been doing some reporting down there as well and how this is reverberating. the thing that i just found so piercing today about that interview that kathy did and just the sort of sheer relatability and familiarity of these stories, of these folks who are immigrating to the country and then just absolutely working their tails off, hoping to have a better life for their kids and how much that must strike people there who think there but for the grace of god. >> absolutely. georgia, like a lot of states, has a pretty significant immigrant population, also pretty significantly sized native foreign asian population. i think, as you said, as i was listening to that interview, i was really moved because i was listening to someone who was talking about something that every human being is going to
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experience at some point, which is the feeling of being completely untethered from are parent who's been there your entire life. and it's really tragic, just truly tragic. >> i wonder too, the sort of level of fear that kathy was just talking about, janelle, what you've heard from the folks you've been talking about. you know, there's always that awful sense that this casts a shadow, that people think this is not just an isolated incident and how people are processing that. >> i think we have to be honest ourselves and say this isn't an isolated incident, right? anti-asian hate crime has been surging in this country. hate crimes overall have been rising or did for four years straight. and i think that people rightfully have a sense that they have to adjust the way that they live, which is most unfortunate. this is the evidence that people
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are living with a certain degree of fear and believe that they're living with a certain degree of risk. people making decisions not to go certain places. i've certainly talked to people who have talked about trying to be particularly cautious, being aware of where exits are, being thoughtful about going places where they know that there will be many other asians out of fear that place may be targeted. this is reality. this is the way that people are living, and this is certainly this incident in atlanta has deepened those fears. i think without question this is an extremely violent, extremely tragic. we've lost eight people here in georgia, but there are people who had great fears and concerns well before this event. people have horrible stories about being yelled at, spit on, screamed at, accused of being a vector of disease like in public places. >> janelle ross and kathy park who are both there in the atlanta area doing some fantastic reporting in the
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aftermath of this awful, awful, unspeakable act, thank you both. meanwhile in tennessee, can you complain about so-called cancel culture over the removal of a former kkk leader statue by trying to cancel the government commission that voted to remove the statue? a truly unbelievable story unfolding in tennessee. you've got to see it. that's next. you've got to see it that's next. this is the planning effect. as carla thinks about retirement, she'll wonder, "what if i could retire sooner?" and so she'll get some advice from fidelity,
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if you see wires down, treat them all as if they're hot and energized. stay away from any downed wire, call 911, and call pg&e right after so we can both respond out and keep the public safe. my given name is benjamin buford blue. people call me bubba. just like one of them old redneck boys. can you believe that? >> my name is forrest gump. people call me forrest gump. >> you probably know what movie that's from, the iconic movie "forrest gump." but i wanted to show it to you because forest is a name that's long been common throughout the south, at least among white folks. he said explicitly that he was named after the confederate general nathan bedford forest.
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in the south there have been highways, monuments, high schools and state holidays. he has been treated by many folks as an american hero but that is not who nathan bedford forrest was. you may know the history, you may not. my sense is not a lot of people know the full story. he is not some kind of on the bubble figure, an edge case with a complicated legacy. he's not someone the woke mob has suddenly decided to come for. he's just a vile, vile, evil man. a plantation owner and slave owner, his most infamous act came at the battle of ft. pillow. four soldiers massacred a bunch of union troops, many of them black and many of whom were attempting to surrender when they were killed. the confederacy then abandoned
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the position that night. they didn't even need to hold the fort. it was an atrocity, and it was recognized as such at the time. this is from the "new york herald" on april 14th, 1864. tales of a horrific massacre, the dead and wounded burned by confederate force, reported massacre of the white black troops. it reverberated as one of the most vile, despicable war crimes of the civil war. but nathan bedford forrest wasn't done yet. after the confederacy was defeated, he escaped justice. he was not imprisoned or executed. he went back to civilian life and became an early member of an organization you've perhaps heard of, the ku klux klan. in fact forrest was the first and most notorious grand wizard of the kkk which dedicated itself to reinstalling white
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supremacy by targeting black people with violence and mayhem. that's the guy. there is currently a bust in his honor displayed in the tennessee state capitol. now, it does not stretch back all the way to the reconstruction years. no, no, no, it was installed in 1978. it was put there in response to a bust of u.s. civil war hero admiral david farragut. it promptly attracted members of the tennessee kkk who held a press conference in front of it in 1980. that's what you're looking at the. those are klansmen in klan robes underneath the forrest bust in case anyone is still wondering what this is all about. a lot of folks have been trying to get rid of the nathan forrest bust for a very long time. last year to his credit, tennessee republican governor bill lee called for the bust to be removed, citing the brutal crimes that nathan bedford forrest committed against african-americans. now the tennessee historical commission and capitol commission have voted to remove
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the bust. but because history is never gone and confederacy sympathies endure to this day, there is now a republican backlash against that effort. here to tell us what's going on, tennessee state representative london lamar, a democrat who represents memphis. representative, you are in the capitol i believe right in front of the bedford forrest bust. you wanted to do this interview from that position. why? >> i thought it was very important that this man, who was the first grand wizard of the kkk, who massacred many black union soldiers, i wanted to see that he sits right here in the most powerful building in the state of tennessee in between the most powerful chambers in our state and that's the house of representatives and the senate. and every day i have to walk in to make legislation for all people of tennessee, i have to walk past a klansman before i go into the people's house. i think it's important because many people don't get the opportunity to visit the state capitol, especially during a
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pandemic. but you need to see that our state capitol is recognizing and supporting the first grand wizard of the kkk in a building that should be a building where all people can feel that we are entering these chambers to represent them and make their lives better. >> so this is not a new controversy. it's been the object of much public attention for a while. the republican governor created this commission. the commission voted to remove it. there seems to be a rebellion against that in which some of your republican colleagues want to cancel the commission because they cancelled nathan bedford forrest. what's going on? >> see, after decades and decades of protesting, we finally had a win last week when the historical commission voted to remove this bust and place this bust in the state museum where it can be -- the story can be told in more accurate context. but because some of the republicans do not agree with the removal of the klansman from the state capitol, they are now
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trying to remove the commission in its entirety. some of these republicans are trying to stack the deck and make it even harder. they put this commission in place but because it's not working to their benefit, we want to change it again. we can't keep stacking the deck when we are able to do what we need to do in a system that you put in place and i don't think it's fair that we are trying to make it harder. the historical commission made a decision. we need to respect it and allow this bust to be moved to the state museum. >> let me just make sure i understand this right. so republicans control the government in your state. they have majorities in both houses if i'm not mistaken there's a republican governor. under that republican governor they created this commission. the commission's job was to research and figure out what to do with this bust. i believe a building at a college that's also named after him, if i'm not mistaken. they have now voted to remove the bust, but the republicans now, some republicans don't like the decision so they want to scrap that commission as kind of, i don't know, retaliation?
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>> absolutely. this is a divided republican party on this bust. what it is is they want to abuse the government to get to what they want to do. it's possible if they pass this legislation to change the commission where the lieutenant governor, the speaker of the house and the governor have to equally get appointments to this commission in order to keep this bust from being removed, it can in fact be able to stay here. so we're constantly manipulating the laws in order to keep a klansman in the state capitol. so i support governor lee's leadership in calling on his party to do the right thing. if we truly want people to move to tennessee, if we truly want to bring tax dollars down and want everybody to come here, then we don't need to put up a bust of a man who killed black soldiers and made millions selling children, black children, black mothers, black men on an auction block in my hometown of memphis, tennessee, and made millions of dollars and
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he gets a bust in the most prominent position in the state capitol. it's ridiculous and we hope that the republicans do not manipulate the laws to try to change them just because they can't get their way. >> so you also, if i'm not mistaken, there is some kind of holiday for nathan bedford forrest in the state of tennessee. you, i believe, looked to abolish that. you've introduced legislation that would let the governor not sign the yearly nathan bedford forrest proclamation. any progress on that? >> so governor bill lee and myself had the same legislation to remove nathan bedford forrest as a holiday. what the republicans did, they manipulated the law and changed it where they are now able to vote as a legislature to decide to remove or keep state holidays. i pushed this piece of legislation because in a state where everyone has to observe a state holiday, it's important
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that we recognize those who made a positive impact on tennessee's history. but nathan bedford forrest did not do that. his legacy is about enslaving and mass murdering of black people. he also made millions of dollars as a human trafficker by selling young black girls to adult white membership and made millions of dollars. i'm pretty sure many of my colleagues, both republicans and democrats, don't support human trafficking which is something i advocate for all the time. if we don't support human trafficking, then we don't support nathan bedford forrest and that's exactly why i'm pushing the issue. we must change the culture here in this state if we want to continue to make this a state where all people can thrive. and the number one symbol in our state doesn't need a man who fought against that very thing. >> tennessee state representative london lamar, thanks for joining us tonight.
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i really appreciate it. >> thank you so much. coming up, dr. anthony fauci is here. we have a lot to talk about like, well, how worried we should be about a fourth wave, new school guidance and much more. dr. fauci joins me just ahead. don't go anywhere. ahead. don' t go anywhere. for flights with no change fees. so you can book a great deal now, and always change later. kayak. search one and done. a lot of people think dealing with copd is a walk in the park. and always change later. if i have something to help me breathe better, everything will be fun and nice. but i still have bad days flare-ups (coughs), which can permanently damage my lungs. my lungs need protection against flare-ups. so it's time to get real. because in the real world
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today was a pretty important day for the parent of a school-aged child and that's because today the centers for disease control and prevention released new guidelines for schools, particularly how far apart students need to be and how to open in communities with high rates of coronavirus spread. students who no longer need the plastic shields around their desks can be 3 feet apart rather than 6. that's even in communities with high infection rates as long as teachers and students continue masking. it points to the fact that science doesn't make policy on its own. science can inform policy. policy is then made with trade-offs from competing interests. science can tell us the best data we have says x and here are the costs in either direction. policy makers have to figure out
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what to do with that. that's been true throughout the pandemic. when schools first closed in response to the virus, something needed to be done. based on assumptions and data from previous pandemic, 6 feet became a rule of thumb but as an infectious disease expert at boston university pointed out, there's no magic threshold for any distance. there's risk at 6 feet, risk at 3 feet, risk at 9 feet. there's always risk. again, that's not unusual. with any limit or rule, there's a degree of what arbitrary decision-making like the speed limit being 55 miles per hour rather than 57 or 53. but what became clear is that whatever guidelines we have now will likely endure into the fall. that's even after we get all the adults who want it vaccinated. maybe we have herd immunity among adults. but children won't be vaccinated most likely by late august. and so that's when the old guidance of 6 feet distancing would have become a real problem because if you're looking at like the 10 biggest school systems in america, they do not have that kind of space for the
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number of students they serve. so if you've got 6 feet and want to adhere to the guidelines, you're basically saying you can't send everyone back to school. but the new cdc guidelines, districts have a lot more flexibility to reopen. and keep in mind, the white house has directed teachers, educators and staff members to be first in line for vaccines and to get vaccinated. so if schools are able to use money provided by the federal government to improve ventilation and install air filters, you've got the staff vaccinated, one of the other things we could do is also reduce the amount of colds and flu virus that circulate around school buildings, which would be a nice added benefit. i've got to say as a parent of school age children not having kids, teachers, parents sick all winter long. there are signs the vaccination effort and the biden administration's push to get schools open, right, safely, vaccinations of teachers, money for schools for ventilation, right, coming together so we can get people back in school safely
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today. today new york city mayor bill de blasio said students would opt in for in-person learning this year, which is huge news, particularly in my world. but there are still big concerns about slowing the pandemic overall. big concerns about a potential fourth wave. there's no human being more qualified to talk about exactly where we stand than dr. anthony fauci, and he joins me, next. this go anywhere. o anywhe re ♪ [triumphantly yells] [ding] don't get mad. get e*trade. i think the sketchy website i bought this turtle from stole all of my info. ooh, have you looked on the bright side? discover never holds you responsible for unauthorized purchases on your card. (giggling) that's my turtle. fraud protection. discover. something brighter. and free, and free, and free, and free, free, and free, and free. free, free. and free, and free, and free, and free, free,
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. we owe you a gigantic debt of gratitude, and we will for a long, long, long time because i hope this is the beginning of the end of not paying attention to what's going to come again and again and again and again. you can build all the walls and make one of the most powerful armies in the world but we cannot stop. we cannot stop these viruses, other than be wherever they are and move quickly on them when we
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find them. >> president biden stopped by the headquarters of the centers for disease control today, praised leadership fighting against the virus and also emphasized the importance of responding quickly and effectively at the first sign of an outbreak which is a lesson we have learned the hard way. the visit comes amid roaring signs for covid in the u.s. some places. highly contagious variants have become prevalent in states like michigan and for weeks michigan saw drops in both cases and hospitalization. those trends are now going in the wrong direction. they're going up. data from the cdc and department of health and human services have shown that hospitalizations have risen by 45% from the state's recent low on february 25th. joining me now to talk more about this the country's top infectious disease expert, dr. anthony fauci. it's great to have you back on the program, dr. fauci. i feel like one of the things we've learned is there's no state of equilibrium plateau. the thing is either growing or shrinking.
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when you see it growing in a place i start to get worried. how do you interpret the data out of places like massachusetts and michigan where we're seeing some growth. >> well, you know, it's predictable, chris, because remember we had the big peak and then it came down at a really good rate and then it started to plateau. which i said weeks ago is a bad sign. instead of continuing to go down at a sharp line it's plateaued. once it's done that there's a high risk of another resurgence. we've seen that with previous surges. the other three that we've had in this country. europe did the same thing. they tend to be three or four weeks ahead of us in the dynamics of the outbreak. and they went up, came down, plateaued. they pulled back on the mitigation methods. they stop wearing masks. they opened up the bars. they did the things that we warned shouldn't be done and now europe is seeing, in general, a
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surge of five to ten percent. i hope that doesn't happen here but it looks like it's starting to do that. it's risky, which is the reason why we say don't declare victory prematurely. we still have a ways to go, plateauing at 50,000 cases a day is not a good place to be. and that's where we are. we've got to keep pushing to get it down even further. >> it's -- i'm curious how you a year into this understand the nexus between behavior and policy on that regard. because it does seem to me that a lot of this sort of -- we see this kind of thermostatic behavior in the public. so even when policy isn't reducing people's mobility in a state like arizona during the summer, we start to see people taking matters into their own hands, you know, they stop moving around, they stop congregating, they stop going out and we see that break the back of the curve, but it works in the other direction, right, i mean what -- how much of this is
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policy and how much is people a year out of this whenever they feel like they can come up for air, all right, i'm going out to live more of my life? >> you know, it's a combination of both. i think there is such a strong feeling, chris, that's totally understandable when people have been suppressed this what they can do in the normal way of living, that they just feel we've got to cut loose. that's why you need the leadership to keep encouraging them that we're not going to be this way forever. we just have to hang in there a bit longer because every day that goes by you get two to three million people more vaccinated and as we get out of march into april and may, a lot more people will be vaccinated which would make it a lot less likely that you'd see a surge. what we don't want to do now is to pull back before we get that rather large proportion of people vaccinated. we have now about 23% of the country has at least one
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vaccine, about 12 to 13% of fully vaccinated people. we've got to get that up a bit higher before we start pulling back on some of these public health measures. >> how much is the lesson? something i keep thinking about, we're in march now, in the northern parts of the country it's becoming spring and huge swaths of the country are already very warm. how much have people gotten the message about the difference between indoor and outdoor. my understanding of the science as a journalist who consumes this, is there is there's a huge difference, and anything you can do outdoors instead of indoors is better. >> you're absolutely 100%, chris, there's no doubt about that. and that's the reason why among the four or five things we keep saying over and over again, masking, physical distancing, avoiding congregant settings and outdoors much more
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preferentially than indoors. you're absolutely correct. it makes a big difference. and now that the weather's getting warmer, in many parts, most parts of the country, then do whatever you need to do and do it outdoors. >> yeah, i think particularly when people are scratching that social edge in places that are warm, if you want to see someone, wear a mask and see them outdoors, you know, at a -- at a park or at a -- that is so much better than meeting for someone in a drink in a bar. it just -- it's a completely different universe of risk, i'm not sure that it's gotten threw to people. >> absolutely. >> let me ask you this about the cdc guidance on the three feet versus six feet. the cdc is an independent institution, produce their guidance, you don't work for the cdc, when people see that, if someone says oh, man, they're making this up as we go along, six feet, now three feet, they're pulling this out of thin air, why should i listen to these people, what do you say to that? >> that's not correct. the cdc is a science and evidence-based organization. they make their decisions first
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and foremost on evidence and on data. if they don't have all of that they do modeling and only when they have none of that would they do expert opinion, namely making a choice even though you don't have all the data. right now they went from six to three because they've accumulated a considerable amount of data that shows that really, if you wear a mask all the time, if the children wear a mask, they are just as safe at three feet as they are six feet. the data shows that. it took them a while to come to that conclusion because it took that long to get the data to firmly convince them. there are data-based organization, they don't decide out of nowhere about a policy or a guideline. >> final question for you on the astrazeneca vaccine which had some hiccups, has been resumed after eu regulators gave it a green light, we're sitting on a ton of doses, a plan announced
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today to start giving some to canada and mexico. i know foreign policy is outside your purview but how important is it for us to be a part of the effort to vaccinate the world? >> oh, it's critical. we have been historically global health leaders and that's the reason why we're all so pleased that we got back into w.h.o., we're continuing with our obligations. we've joined kovax, we're giving $4 billion into that consortium of organizations in countries to try and get vaccines to low and middle income countries so what we did with mexico and canada is just another important step in that direction. >> we're going to keep pushing for that on this show. and before i go, my italian mother from the bronx instructed me to wish you a happy st.
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joseph's day, dr. fauci. and for anyone else. >> she says you've got to say happy -- okay, happy -- dr. fauci. >> thank you. same to you. >> that does it for us tonight, rachel maddow starts tonight with ali velshi in for rachel. >> rachel has the night off, she'll be back on monday, there is a lot of news to get to on a friday night and a lot of it's out of the state of georgia. we're still in a state of national mourning for the victims of tuesday's shootings in the atlanta area. today president biden and vice president harris took their first joint trip since taking office to atlanta. the trip had already been planned as part of their tour promoting the american rescue plan but they have postponed that part of the itinerary. instead the president and the vice president shifted their plans, deciding instead to meet


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