tv Democracy Now LINKTV May 12, 2022 3:00pm-4:01pm PDT
majority of civilian casualties. also, the u.s. president kicks off a global covid-19 summit with a warning against complacency. >> thousands still dying every day. now is the time for us to act. all of us, together. >> as the u.s. marks one million covid-19 deaths, we look at how countries around the world are coping with the pandemic. astronomers casting light on the dark heart of our galaxy. they have revealed the first images of a supermassive black hole at the center of the milky way. i am brent goff. to our viewers and all of the around the world, good to have you with us.
tonight, the historic turning point for european security. finland's president calling for their country to apply for nato membership as soon as possible. david -- they said that this would strengthen finland security. finland would strengthen the entire defense alliance. finland must apply for nato membership without delay. the announcement is expected to put pressure on neighboring sweden which is also considering applying to join. we want to show you a map of the current nato members on the european continent and that long border that finland shares with russia and it measures some 1300 kilometers. the national mood has changed dramatically since moscow's invasion of ukraine. we have more in this report. >> finland is looking to ditch years of military nonalignment. while helsinki has moved closer to nato in recent years, it
chose to stay out of the alliance to avoid antagonizing russia until now. the invasion of ukraine has not done much with this. >> i think that we should have been in nato already in the 1990's. >> we stood alone in 1939, we don't want to stand alone again. it is the ascension to the military alliance that would more than double the nato land border. top finished it will not believe nato would benefit if they joined.
>> the kremlin has had its response would depend on the extent of nato's military infrastructure. we have repeatedly extended that the expansion of nato and this does not make the world and the eurasian continent does not become more secure. this is not ambiguous. finland could make its former bid to nato membership in the coming weeks after the move has been approved by parliament. >> it is not only significant
for finland and sweden, it will have an impact on all of nato. when you think about northern europe, you have no way is a member, iceland as a member and then finland and sweden out. this will close that gap around northern europe and these two countries are extremely wealthy, extremely well-equipped. they have very strong national defenses. they will bring very strong capabilities to nato. in some ways, there is the swedish navy. capabilities that nato needs to reinforce itself. >> we heard in the report we just saw that finland's policy had been to be nonaligned. isn't that what it is going to do toward the alliance? >> it was only in part not to
antagonize russia. at that point, russia was not invading its neighbors like it has done in ukraine. finland felt the strong national defense would be enough to deter a russian attack. after this war started on ukraine, all bets are off. that is what changed the public opinion. they have even threatened to move nuclear weapons closer to the finish border. this is something that finland, sweden and all of nato expected and they are not actually that worried about it. the resilience is high, the mindset is stable. they were expecting these kinds of reactions. >> the worry israel in helsinki.
that finland could become the next ukraine. >> yes. we thought that vladimir putin could not go that far to wage a peaceful war -- wage a war on a peaceful neighbor. this is after decades of cultivating a relationship with russia that i would not say was friendly but it was understood by each side. finland trusted moscow not to be aggressive against it. >> we heard the membership can be put on the fast track. finland is the country that ukraine wishes it could be right now. >> there has been a lot of talk about that.
ukraine did see finland as a model. the comparisons are not apt in most ways. the gdp of finland is so high. the military capabilities are so high. finland has not needed anyone's help up until now. i don't think the comparisons are fully compatible at this moment. now finland does not want to see itself suffer. >> which i think most of the work and understand. where is human rights council has launched this into alleged rights abuses.
the russian forces are responsible. he has more on the fighting and other cities in east of ukraine. >> we have situations at the different parts of the frontline. that means the city is out of artillery range. that is why people are returning to the city. it is being shelled less than before. due to this offensive which seems to be quiet successful in dundas which is further east, the situation looks a bit different, fighting his fears there. have inhe past few days
seen some gains by the russians not breakthroughs but the russians are still on the offensive although things might not go as planned for them. it is a very intense battle. >> what about the kremlin's warning about further weapons deliveries to ukraine? >> the kremlin has been warning against arms deliveries since the beginning of the war but the kremlin has also attacked ukraine. >> we ar they are talks about evacuating a small number of these soldiers.
those who are severely wounded. that could be 39 or around 40 people. the discussions are ongoing. this is what ukraine has proposed. handing over prisoners to russia along these wounded soldiers to get out of the steel plant. but russia is very keen on capturing the soldiers there. russia describes this battalion as a nazi fascist battalion. it has roots in ukrainian nationalism. it is a symbol and they want to
get all of that. >> thank you. a group of southern wealthy countries are meeting on the agenda, worldwide food shortages, energy prices, skyrocketing and the war in ukraine. the foreign ministers of ukraine and moldova will take part in the meeting on saturday. the foreign minister in indonesia, the country that shares this is expected to join the video link. germany holds the rotating presidency. the world's wealthiest nations have more.
>> as the strongest industrialized nations, we have a special responsibility and we don't just assume this responsibility, we want to work together to ensure that the 141 states that have condemned this brutal war of aggression and the strongest possible terms within the framework of the u.n. are not now left in the lurch. but rather we stand by their side and in solidarity with all countries in the world suffering the brutal consequences of this war of aggression. we see you, we hear you and we support you. >> that was the german foreign minister there. women are bearing the brunt of russia's invasion of ukraine. many have experienced sexual violence by russian soldiers. the area was retaken by russian troop civilians and have been given or five counts sexual violence. the true numbers are impossible
to count. they have already opened investigations into more than 400 cases. the u.n. is working with local authorities to get aid to survivors. the question about what is being done to help women target sexual violence, i asked a human rights lawyer and she is the head of the nonprofit organization at the center for civil liberties. this is documenting the testimonies. there are cases of sexual violence, rape that is committed by russian soldiers.
all of them are women who were raped by russian soldiers. we are not prepared for such crimes. not prepared to provide proper questions and conversations with the survivors of sexual violence. >> i understand that these are all horrifying cases. some women have been raped. it is hard to imagine but can you describe to us the lasting effects being an eyewitness to this can have?
circumstance. how difficult is it for women to talk about this when it has happened in a war zone when a soldier has done this? >> very difficult to speak. they considered this crime as a shame. this is also very important to understand the nature of the crime. this is targeting the ukrainian society. some people feel guilty becse they would not protect and stop it.
other peopleeel the fear to be treated in the same way. it has provided a frozen effort and we must consider that russians use ribs as a part of interrogating civilians. >> we appreciate your time and your insights and the work that you are doing. thank you. course here is a look at some of the other stories making headlines this hour around the world. this has been held in the palestinian city here. she was killed just one day earlier well carrying covering and the west bank. israel was fully responsible for the journalist death. israel says it is still unclear who killed her.
south korea says north korea has test launched three short range -- u.s. and democrats have failed to pass a bill -- staying in the u.s., president biden has called for a renewed fight against covid-19. in a recorded video message, especially when it comes to battling the virus. the statement came as the u.s.
approaches one million deaths related to covid-19. flags across the country have been lowered to have stack -- half-staff to do this. this online summit is the latest attempt to speed up the global effort to end this pandemic and while the numbers of covid cases continue to grow, countries around the world are choosing their own ways to deal with the virus. >> shanghai is a city under lockdown. supermarket workers and protective gear get food deliveries ready for residents. in europe, it is a completely different picture. tourists are enjoying the city. barely a mask inside. across the world, countries have dealt with the pandemic and various different ways but it has touched all of our lives.
to date, 519 million covid-19 infections have been reported globally. 6.2 6 million have died from the virus. the who estimates the true number of covid deaths is closer to 15 million. nearly 2.5 years after the virus emerged, many people want to return to life as it used to be but the pope -- but the pandemic is far from over. 66% of the world's population have received at least one dose of the covid vaccine but there are huge disparities. 80% of people have been vaccinated. the struggle to get the world vaccinated continues. after all, in a pandemic that
has affected the entire globe, we are only safe once everybody is safe. >> they have unveiled the first image of a supermassive black hole located at the center of our very own milky way galaxy. this groundbreaking image is the product of an international team of scientists known as the event -- the event horizon telephone. the cosmic body is named sagittarius a star. it has 4 million times the mass of ourwn son and his lated 60,000 lht-years fm rth. it will help us understand what happens at the center of our galaxy. the nasa einstein vallow here, she is part of the team that captured the image of this black hole.
>> we don't know what is inside a black hole. this is impossible. this is the point of no return. you would not be able to come back out and tell anyone. >> this is for all of the fella spacers out there. >> this is depending on which blackhole you choose to go into. if you go into very small black holes, the ones about the size of the mass of our time, if you get too close to it, you get stretched out into thin spaghetti before falling into it. but for sagittarius, they are so
big, so large. you would just kind of flute rated. nothing would happen to you. >> it would be the 26,000 light-years away that you have to travel. >> it is a pretty long way. >> what does this mean for research? >> the black hole at the center of our galaxy has indirect evidence that it was there for a while. the nobel prize in physics was awarded to these orbits of stars in our galactic center that had very peculiar orbits around this
compact mass. we thought a lot about what this mass could be. that has always been indirect evidence that there is a black hole. today we are seeing it for the first time. at the center of our galaxy, -- we have two backhoes that we can see. these two backhoes are fairly different in size. >> we appreciate you for sharing enthusiasm. >> moscow has accused finland of
turning its border with russia into the milk out -- the military conversation. the alliance has promised finland a swift recession process. the probe will focus on incidents near the capital of kyiv and other regions previously occupied by russian troops. moscow has denied the allegations. we will be right back.
and analysis from prince --news france. russia seeks to retaliate as finland seeks nato membership without delay. sweden could follow suit in a bid to join the alliae. the french president says france fully supports finland's bid to join nato. i counteroffensive has pushed putin's troops back, britain says the withdrawal is an
admission they can't capture ukraine's main city. all the developments on a 78 of the russian invasion. trouble continues in sri lanka's capital despite new developments on the political front. a new prime minister has been named. this is live from paris. ♪ mark: thank you very much for being with us. we start with the latest on the conflict in ukraine and a diplomatic development, finland asking to join nato. this is a move finland says it is making as a result of russian aggression in ukraine. in moscow, it is seen as nato expansionism and a threat to russian security. french president emmanuel macron
has probably support -- thrown his support behind the finish case. reporter: after months of deliberation, the finish president and prime minister endorsed finland joint nato, setting the stage for an eminent application. finland must apply for membership without delay, we hope the national steps needed to make the decision will be taken rapidly, within the next few days. the foreign minister echoed the statement and his address to the parliament, emphasizing the need for security and protection against a volatile russia. >> the unpredictable behavior of russia is an eminent issue. russia has indicated willingness to put pressure on its neighbors. reporter: until now, finish leaders sought nato membership as a provocation of moscow, but since the war in ukraine, finland has made a u-turn from
70 years of neutrality with its russian neighbor, with whom it shares a 1300 kilometer border. consensus has shifted in sweden, who is expected to move in tandem with finland's decision. but joining the 30-member group doesn't come without risks. the kremlin has warned of military and political consequences for nordic countries who join the alliance. >> further action by russia will depend on how this process of expansion would look in the future, how far the kerry infrastructure will move, how much closer to our borders. reporter: finland reiterated its potential membership would not be a zero-some game, that finland bolstering security by joining the alliance would not be an attack on any nation. mark: let's get some analysis with a fellow tt the royal
united services institute. >> it wasnevitable that finlanwould joint data -- join nato. the latest poll shows 76% of finns support nato membership. there is a lot of pressure on the finnish government to do this and i think they made a decision that is right. mark: does russia see it as a threat, nato expansionism? >> obviously they see it as a threat because they want to contain the spread of nato on its borders. a greater military presence could be used to attack russia from a third country. launching a work in ukraine and seeing nato expand is the least likely thing russia would ever want. mark: to make a similar move against finland or sweden would surely be a move too far? >> and certainly would be a move too far.
sweden was a bit concerned because there could be a base for a russian attack on baltic states, and somrussian analysts have alluded to that potential threat. i think russia is not want to engage in military retaliation against finland or sweden. the most they will probably do when you look at tactical measures the kremlin suggested would be to put warships in the gulf of finland and additional nukes to create a chilling, deterrence effect and maybe use an unconventional means of warlike cyber attacks rather than any all-out military assault. mark: these wargames you are speaking about, inspires fear in some of the people listening, that these things are happening. but it is good of you to address this development with this kind of analysis per ukraine, independent since 19 91 after the disintegration of the soviet union, would you say the west
hasn't ever really viewed ukraine as independent, but as a russian substate, which is while this is happening in ukraine? >> that is a great qstion. america and the west increasingly viewed ukraine as an independent country on its own course, especially after a revolution and led to a decisive orntation of ukraine towards the european union and closer alignment with the transatlantic alliance. there is an image that ukraine is a divided country, the east wants to be with russia, but i think the west use ukraine as a sovereign countrthat does want western orientation and acknowledges the fact russia has imperial designs and wants to stop that. and the problem has always been not enough sanctions on russia, not enough support for the ukrainian because command that has gotten us to this point because russia did not feel enough deterrence from the west. and we have to hope deterrent
lessons are learned. mark: and in terms of supplies, military support will keep coming from the west. is that something you think vladimir putin will take as a growing provocation? his foreign minister sergei lavrov stated that supply chains coming by rail could be a legitimate military target. >> russia has been saying that ever since the start of the work, that any arms shipments or weapons depots that might even store them, whether in odessa or lviv, are legitimate targets. the russians have always boasted about their ability to intercept arms transfers. for example, some that arrived in ukraine were destroyed. the slovaks then revealed they arrive safely. russia has a tendency to threaten and overestimate its ability to destroy weapons caches. it will continue to try to
destroy them going forward and we should assume that even though the war is being fought primarily in the east, there is a risk of attacks on western ukraine going forward. mark: is there a certain irony that countries are seeking to join nato now? ukraine designs on nato kicked off this process with vladimir putin in some ways becoming unwittingly nato's best recruitment agent. >> that is a joke that has been going around. it is correct, vladimir putin has done more to strengthen the nato alliance than anybody in nato could have dead themselves. countries like germany, doesn't supply weaponry of any kind to active conflict zones, it is supporti ukraine. we have seen finland and sweden break centuries-long positions of neutrality and now take a step toward nato membership. it has been a major victory for the unity of the nato alliance so far. nato has been a lot more united
than the european union, as we get to the tricky bits of energy. mark: final question, because we are going on to talk about kharkiv with a special report on the ground, but can i ask your opinion about something sent by britain and coming for british intelligence, the inability of russia to france on that they have basically been bartered since february 24, indicative according to britain. russia is incapable of taking a major ukrainian city. what would you say to that? >> that is probably an accurate depiction of the state of affairs. they have a supply chain tissue which they thought would lead to a very successful offensive on kharkiv, but it didn't work. they have taken over cities inside ukraine and have had to either level them to the ground or do so with little resistance,
or after a protracted campaign, even for small areas, with thousands of people in weeks of fighting, and the wegner group and the chechens had to be brought into break the stalemate. the russians are only effective when they take over small cities add to tactics. when it comes to taking over a large city, they tried and failed. mark: samuel of the royal united services institute, thank you for your analysis here on france 24. we appreciated. -- appreciate it. more news on the 78th day of the russian invasion in ukraine. ukraine has mentored a counteroffensive, ousting russian forces in villages north and east of kharkiv. those are places vladimir putin's forces had held since the start of the invasion february 24. russians are reportedly regrouping, but it is confirmed ukraine forces are holding
territory 40 kilometers east of kharkiv went to the north, halfway to the russian border. on war crimes, the yuan high commissioner on human rights says there are many possible examples of war crimes including unlawful killings and summary executions. moscow denies deliberately attacking civilians despite evidence to the contrary. its ambassador to the u.n. says the west is organizing another political rout to demonize russia." the russian retreat has begun to make it possible for some residents to return to villages around kharkiv. the areas remain littered with mines and booby-traps per the u.n. says the invasion has displaced more than 8 million people within ukraine, with the number of refugees fleeing the country exceeding 6 million. our reporters visited several villages to the east of kharkiv now back in ukrainian hands and
met some of the few civilians who remained during the battles. reporter: russian troops are no longer in this village, but an unexploded cluster bomb, evidence of the battles fought here, a weapon widely band around the world. today, it lies next to a university. >> only civilians live here, not soldiers. this is a crime committed by the russian army. reporter: almost nobody remains here. the emily sound? the rumble of artillery fire in the distance -- the only sound? the rumble of artillery fire in the distance. although the fighting was fierce, dozens of civilians from further south have taken refuge year. ivan takes us to them living in the basement of the university, a place where they are relatively safe. but many still long for home. >> it feels like there is a
weight on my chest. we want to go back. how could we want anything else? we can't stay here forever. where will we go next? reporter: down the road, ivan is going to check on some villagers who are here. it is a true community effort. an entrepreneur has turned to aid deliveries, risking shell fire to reach those trapped underground. >> thank you for not forgetting us. they came to help us, despite the bombs and mines. reporter: slava takes us to his own, laid to waste by russian occupiers. signs of their time here are scattered around what was once his family's front garden, and his basement. >> we found 23 jars of homemade vodka and they drank it all. reporter: at this house, a
shallow grave. a soldier from russia's siberia region buried by the ukrainians themselves, 4000 kilomets from home. civilians here are only tentative returning home because the front line is moving every few days. it has to be said that around kharkiv, ukrainian forces have made significant gains in recent weeks, including this key road that links russia with the fiercely fought over city of azoum and the dundas, making it harder for russia to resupply troops. mark: we will have more on ukraine coming up live from paris. next, thousands gather to mourn and a person in the occupied city of ramallah as the palestinian authority blamed israel for her death and rejected calls for a joint
investation. the palestinian-america reporter who covered the middle east conflict for more than 20 years was shot dead wednesday during an israeli military rd on theest bank town of jenin. journalists who were with her said israeli forces fired on them even though they were clearly identifiable as reporters. shoot on-site orders and a curfew -- sri lanka has appointed a new prime minister took on the unrest. at least eight people have been killed on in violence -- killed in violence when peaceful protest are's were attacked by pro-government folks. protesters wanted the brothers who dominate the government and have overseen the descent into crisis, to resign. a new leader has been named, having already held the office on five separate occasions. reporter: in the midst of a
state of emergency, sri lankan has a new prime minister. the 73-year-old opposition lawmaker held the post on four previous occasions and will replace the president's brother, who stepped down monday. the appointment comes at a time when the sri lankan economy is in tatters, suffering blackouts, shortages of food and fuel and losses to covid with monthly and elation creeping close to 20%. since march, sri lankans have voiced frustration in the streets. this situation turned violent on monday, killing at least nine, hundreds more injured. at the helm of it all, president rajapraska, who protesters calling on to resign. >> what he has done is despicable. he brought assault of the state of hunger and poverty. >> we are asking him to come down. we don't want him as president. reporter: rajapraska addressed
the country wednesday but stop short of yielding to demands that he resign. >> several parties have caused the presidential system be abolished. when the country is stabilized with a new government, i will create an environment for this to happen. reporter: a new cabinet is expected in the coming days. mark: we are watching all developments on the situation in sri lanka. next the beijing residents rush to supermarkets as chinese officials try to curb panic over a rumor the capital will be placed under stay-at-home orders. the capital city has had a wave in recent weeks on the closing subway stations and telling residents work from home with hundreds of communities sealed off to contain cases. france 24 has more with this. reporter: customers rushed to stock up on fresh food, but there is little room to move at this beijing supermarket.
standing in cues that snake around the store, these residents fear being sent into strict lockdown. later thursday, chinese officials denied rumors of a pending stay-at-home orders, but the capital's streets remain eerily quiet. authorities have already closed ceain stores, restaurants and entertainment venues and sealed off hundreds of communities to contain aces -- cases. on thursday, china said it was strictly limit unnecessary overseas travel for citizens. the measures are taking their toll and residents. >> my families now in japan, but because of chinese government inspections, more and more, they don't have the chance to come back to beijing. it is a hard time for our family. reporter: on thursday, beijing recorded 47 new infections, tiny
fraction of the outbreak in shanghai, which has been under lockdown for more than a month. china's zero-covid policy comes to the detriment of its economy come in small is this owners are feeling the pinch. >> yesterday, one of my friends, a store manager, started crying when he saw me. he said this month has been very tough. the rent still has to be paid and there is pressure to perform or businesses must close. reporter: beijing officials announced three more rounds of mass testing in 12 of the city's main districts, during which people are urged to reduce movement. mark: north korea has imposed a nationwide lockdown to control its first acknowledged covid-19 outbreak. after holding for more than two years i widely doubted claim of a perfect record of keeping out the buyers that has spread to nearly every corner of the globe, the outbreak forest leader kim jong-un to wear a
public, likely rather first time. the scale of transmission in north korea isn't known. it could have serious consequences because the country has a poor health care system and is 26 million people are believed to be mostly unvaccinated. some experts say north korea, by its rare admission of an outbreak, may be seeking outside aid. we are watching for developments. two french citizens have been detained in iran, according to the french foreign ministry, denouncing what he described as a basis arrest and calling for their release. the pair that the ministry didn't name. the latest western natural -- western nationals to be detained in iran in what critics say is hostagetaking to extract concessions the west. more on that story coming up there shortly. time now bring it back to the studio and bring in james, truth
or fake, that is the question. you have been looking at fake news suggesting finland is preparing for conflict on its border with russia. we know finland is asking to join nato, is this fake news saying finland is preparing for conflict? james: a video has been doing the rounds in the context of that broader news story that fenlon shares a border with russia, russia previously invaded, they have every reason to be nervous in the context of what happened in ukraine read and they have been online since the fall of the soviet union, essentially neutral and thinking now about joining nato, which suggests they are generally about russia's activities. this is a train with tanks that are being transferred somewhere, and the legend here [speaking
french] unusual that it would appear on that page. the video made it there, it also made it to other pages on the web, some as improbable as twitter. media reports say finland has begun active transfer of equipment to the border with russia. that is the same video. here, on facebook, kurdish media, so you can see the extent to which this went around the world. from senegal to kurdistan to twitter, it went very virally d. -- very viral indeed. if you look at the work of the observer's desk, they look into the -- they looked into this. there is a train track. there are some visual cues around the actual journey that we can see in that clip. in particular, this tower, here. the tower, if you look at the direction of the train track,
you can determined that this was a tower in tampere, in the west of finland. the border with russia is in the east of finland. so am of the train is traveling west and traveling as if those tanks are being brought to the west of finland. and that was in the context of aero 22 joint military exercises with lithuania, estonia, the u.k. in the u.s.. so it is in the context of a broader jitters and seeing finland joint nato, you might that video think tanks are actually being sent to the border. and that is an important detail. mark: the common denominator is certain support of russia by propaganda, it seems.
there is some kind of african body, i imagine and there is a lot of pro-russian propaganda being pushed by social media across africa. james: exactly. whether this was willful deception, whether it was just a mistake, it is hard to know. why woulpeople say it going to the border of inland when there nothing to indicate that it is, other than an attempt to stir up concerns and fear. it could be willful information but at the very least, misleading and inaccurate. mark: indeed. all part of the mischiefmaking online all the time, and something you have been doing for many years, james, picking up on untruths people are pushing for their own purposes. who knows what goes on in their heads? but it is very shaky indeed. that is fake news. next -- have parisians been taking to the streets to protest police brutality?
in the yellow vests protest, certain actions by police could possibly classified as police brutality. we have reported on this, what have you got? james: very credible when these claims come income as you said, because of the context of police reality certainly having happened. when you see in this vid is clashes, there is a fire burning there and in this tweet, it has been connected to a police brutality bill. protesters burn cars, set bank on fire over police brutality bill. this is just a do once, because those images are accurate. they did happen but the original video is this one. and this was in the context of mayday, may 1 protest. there were clashes with police,
at least 54 arrests, and the clashes took place in the east of paris, but this was nothing to do with police brutality per se. one mayday 2008, you remember a scandal, a bodyguard of the president caught up in scenes of what you could class as police brutality. they weren't a police officer. that generated scandal. you can see headlines like this behind this scandal. police brutality has been made ordinary, so when mayday protests in the past were connected to police brutality, might take is why people are protesting now. but they are not. it is very easy to get these, for these videos to be misrepresentative or for details to go missing. mark: that was a made a
demonstration when we saw that fire. what is going on there? james: a mcdonald's was targeted at one point. i am not sure what was targeting that particular scene, but what happened -- mark: that is a car that is on fire, by the smoke. james: fires were set, a mcdonald's was ransacked. mark: what gets me, and this is my opinion, maybe i shouldn't be saying this, but when i see people burning cars, it is usually somebody festivus old reynaud that they are setting fire to. so they try to attack the system and i am thinking of some poor woman who uses that car to get to work. they pick on easy targets and that is wrong. james: all sorts of wrong. mark: james creedon, as ever
05/12/22 05/12/22 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> has been a huge blow around the arab world because she has been the primo corresponded in palestine for probably the most watched arab network. it is like somebody we are familiar with has been taken from us. it was a terrible shock. amy: pal