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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Guy Verhofstadt  Deutsche Welle  January 1, 2022 10:30pm-11:00pm CET

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i little monaco, oh, marble, it's a chance to lead a classical music tradition into a new era and for the swiss choir director, it's a lifelong dream. come true. 6 in 30 minutes on d, w. every journey begins with the 1st step and every language with the 1st word college pinnacle rico is in germany to learn german why not learn with him? it's simple online, on your mobile and free shop, t w's, e learning course, nico speak, german made easy this week on conflict zone, at least 27 migrants perish in the english channel. will this now force europe to commit to safer migration policies? i hope it is a catalyst that finally give a hofstadter in brussels member of the european parliament and the former prime
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minister of belgium. if e u member countries can't agree on a life and death issue like this, what's the point of the you only of that you level, you can manage this as polish security, inflict water cannon, and tear gas on refugees or their border with bella. bruce, what happened to the ears, much vaunted values, and what reforms are needed? also the trouble with facebook and the need for a revamped nato all on conflict on ah gibber house that welcome to conflict zone. let's talk 1st about the migrants who drowned last week since asked the crisis of the moment it is, would you think this is going to be the catalyst for some new european policies on migration? i hope so because this tragedy in the, in the not see or is sir not 3rd, not the 1st tragedy. and we have seen so many
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a casualty, sir. a treasure this in the mediterranean. now this is happening here or in the, on the north sea. so i hope it is a catalyst to finally to have a common or european migration policy or a because it's already more than 20 years, that we are talking about the common migration policy. and it never happened because a common migration policy could to avoid the tragedies as we have seen her last week. france called for urgent talks to discuss this tragedy. but then it disinvited a british minister because he didn't like one of bars. johnson's tweets, you don't do that if you're serious about finding solutions, do you i don't thing that you, you, you start to do are such talks with, with, with tweets and that sir, maybe the way from a debt is a policies. but that sir, not the way we do it inside the d european the inside european union.
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so i think it more important is to concentrate ourselves on our what could avoid search or tragedies. and again, there a change in d, a european ah, migration, and sign of policy is absolutely key. or like there is also a need for the okay, for united kingdom to understand that they are now out of the european union and they need to take their own responsibility for down migration, an asylum policy, or what i think totally understand. and i'll re savvy, i think they understand that i'm talking about diplomatic go up. so i'm not sure i'm not so sure that maybe you understand that i'm not so sure that the, that the british government and buddy johnson understand that this diplomatic stand off may be great fun for governments. but the only people who are going to get hurt by this are the migrants, isn't it time for everyone to stop playing games with these people's lives?
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it's, it's at the time now earth to do what are the most governments, especially also the british government, but also other governments have always avoided to do that is to develop a common migration and assign a policy that is based not on unanimity, a ruling on, on the decision by unanimity but unqualified majority because that's the reason that we don't have the last 20 years, a common migration and as island policy, it is already since 1999, a debt. we decided that migration would be a common policy in the union, and since then nothing have happened. and the 1st thing to do is to create and to establish a common legal migration of policy. because a many of this tragedies, r o, d u, the consequence of the fact that we don't have a legal migration policy in the unit. and the 2nd thing to do is to have common asylum standards in union. so there is no shopping any more possible. and
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a 3rd thing to do is to a really better manage our outside borders of the union outside balls of union. yeah, and unfortunately i want to come on to the ants. i bought it in a minute, but if, if, if, if e u member countries can't agree on a life and death issue like this, what's the point of the, you the point of the you is that only on the, you level, you can manage this. you see the red brit britain cannot managers, although it needs to ask to european union to take action. otherwise, tragedies will continue. tragedies for people want to reach and want to go to a united kingdom. and the point is, art point is as a euro, as the europe apartment, we have already set for years. and i hope that in the next conference in the future of europe, we will achieve that, that we need to get rid of unanimity. the problem is that the fact that you need
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the approval of 27 mabis days before you can act. and in dement in the meanwhile, such tragedies are happening because of this impossibility or to go forward on migration policy. because the unanimity or requirement that the that exist today, okay? but at the same time that is not, this is yelling on the lease out, the only feel that it's not the only field the you is facing a major credibility issue because it doesn't just sell goods around the world. it tries to sell values as well. and i wondering which values thee was selling when poland was filmed, tear gassing helpless migrants on the border with belarus and showering them with water, cannon and freezing temperatures. not the greatest advert for e e values was it doesn't, does not make you sorry what not. no, not, not your. now you are not very objective in the way you put your question because the problems are the ponies border are not a problem caused by european union or caused by poland that are problems caused by
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lucre. ankle by beller, is a great way to treat them. i tried to use and abuse migrants, but they got abused by piling it again. that's a problem that has been that it's a problem caused by luca change. so it's not very objective to invert the roles and to do as the migrants of the border between batteries and poland are a problem that has been caused by the european union. that's not, and you know, it's very well it's, and what we have done in the meanwhile, is to try to have agreement with dose countries where these people come from. so to avoid that, they are abused by a dictatorship in the neighborhood of european union, as has been the case the last week and months and you are right, i deplore as you use of violence in that. so, so some of the you, it, you vented into have resulted and i'm talking about the particularly dirty deal
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with the libyan coast guard. paid an effect now by d. u to hunt down migrant boats in the mediterranean and take some human rights violations visited on them. can 20, i guessed it. i have that that you're wanting it may be your next time you're done invites me to have you interview your invite. the commissioner was responsible for that because exactly as a member of parliament, i have criticized this to what's the european commission. i am not a member of parliament we'll have to if had to policies of the european union. so next time you take european commission are responsible for these matters and you ask him his questions. i'm as critical as you on the fact that is happening. and as the reason why i take that european migration and assign a policy needs to become a european union matter. while it is not to day, because all elements that you have to put forward, the problems in the naulty and the tragedy we have seen in the naughty the problems
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at the border between poland and bell artist, the problems in the mediterranean. ah, to wear it sir. a libya and people coming from there and abuse, there are all the consequence of the fact that all member states are responsible for that. and europe in union is not. so it's not the question of european union. it's a question of a lack of european union, a lack of european migration and asylum policy. but next time my proposal to you is invite the commissioner responsible for it because i am as critical towards for this happening in the media terrain. and in the north he as you do, your critic go about it. the media is critical about it. the reports have been coming in and going to the u. n. and human rights organizations for a long time. and yet nothing gets done about it. why do you think that is a because a, like i, i will explain for the 3rd time of a 4th time now that this policies for the moment are still policies of the member states. because there is no unanimity inside european council to change this
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migration policies. even at the moment. when so many people refugees came from. huh . yeah, syria and the conflict and cedar 2 words, europe. yeah. it misses, mangold said, okay, be a shuffled us. we gun at the big them, we gonna take them inside germany. that was a national measure without consultation, read the others. so we need absolutely a radical change in the way utopian migration. an asylum policy is treated in union and we have to do it in a common way. we have to do it on the european level with a good border management with common asylum and a migration conditions. and with a legal migration part where, because a lot of the tragedies in the mediterranean and in the naughty are the consequence of the absence to day of a legal way to come to work,
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to be active as a migrant in europe. you claimed earlier this year that e integration has been enormously important. you said to enshrine rules, rights and freedoms, into our societies in europe. but in a number of e u countries, those rules exist only on paper, don't they? and your powerless as you said, to do anything above that, hungary and poland for instance, with all the rule of law issues. they know how to game the system, does they and they can paralyze it if they want to hold up discussions on the budget, hold up this and that so far from enshrining your rules, the ear is being strangled by them isn't though absolutely not. there is a way to tackle this ever there is an unwillingness in european council under d at some states and government. and under d prime ministers are to tackle that problem. my, what i expect is that with a new german government arriving a government of a socialist liberals and greens,
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that this new government will be far more critical on this issue. let's be honest about it. until now. we didn't tackle the problem and angry with didn't to tackle in, in, in poland. it because the european council, under the leadership of mrs. malika was not capable to do it. the part you had done was got forest lo said they would get it on. they forgot they had a car, sorry. the commission launched the procedure on it. and european court of justice also took its responsibility. the only institution would didn't take into responsibility was the european council. and i think my expectation is that with new german government arriving empower now. this will change and we will see really european union who is active using the instruments or to make sure that the values in european union also applied in countries like poland and hungary. you've criticized european leaders for lack of courage. you said the, the instruments,
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for instance, with ad for dealing with rule of law issues in pakistan and hungry to exist it. the instruments exist. you said only the courage among leaders is failing. so why do you think you leaders are so gutless on this issue? the of for the simple reason at that in the council, everything is decided between them. i have never seen in european council and was a long time, a member of the european council. one colleague attacking another colleague, one colleague tried the sizing and other colleague, one colleague, a yacht sanctioning, i should say, a, another colleague around the table that doesn't tell that doesn't work in european council. therefore, i think with the arrival of new german government, i think that we'll see european castle far more critical to words what is happening in poland and in hungry. and in top of that, i think that in the future, we need to maybe to change the instruments and changing them as it means to give to
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european court of justice de cape ability to competence. not only to give in judgments about what is happening in poland and hungary, but also to decide on sanctions. what is the case in every normal or rule of loan system in every country? so i think that fundamentally and ultimately it will be necessary to give the new competence to a european court of justice. what to give them the possibility to decide on sanctions towards countries that they are not applying the fundamental values of, you know, you mentioned earlier, the conference on the future of europe, which your co chairing, yet another inquiry into what europeans want from their institutions. and has there ever been an organization that does not navel gazing and introspection? no, it's not, it's, it's not a consulting, was it pumped is absolutely not that while we are organizing the conference in the
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future of europe is an unseen exercise. well, we try to combine representative democracy with participatory democracy. the synthesis where you're talking about and totally 800 selected, randomly selected people are not her or not dad, to give their opinion. ah, and it's over no, no doubt, participating in the decision making process. it's for the 1st time i think in, in, in a modern democracy that citizens are directly involved in the decision making process . that is what we are doing and saying, hey, well, blair went them and not many of them either. not many of them. the numbers taking that known as natalia, this are so smallest about almost irrelevant. i don't know. i don't know. there are for the moment that are for the moment, 4000000 people will are on the platform who have got access to the digital platform. the conference in the future of europe, there are 10 and 10 of several,
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tens of thousands war on daily basis. debating on the future offer d a european union. and in top of that, that has been in a scientific way, 800 people selected. and all these people have nothing to do with european union to participate in the decision making process. we have seen such err. yeah. what we called citizens convention, already in france, already in ireland, already in germany. but it's for the 1st time that it is organized on a ben european level. and my expectation of this exercise is not to listen to the citizens because we know what the citizens wants. we have the euro borrow meter. we have surveys like it's in the case also in written note, the big difference is that the citizens are, are selected will continue to participate in not only formulating recommendations, but also in the answers. the politicians will diff,
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to their wishes. and to do recommendations. you said to regain people trust in democracy, we need to fundamentally revisit the way democracies work. so they are 4 and with the people instead of that, why not concentrate on result? yes. find a way for 27 different countries to put together on the major problems that are facing them, something that they have because picking up the phone to do so for what i what? well, for the simple reason that the pressure that can be created by a participation of the citizens will be so huge that i am, i am confident that way you can find 2 ways to break the resistance off of some members states to go forward inside european union, we need the power of the people. we need the power of the citizens inside this conference to go to barriers, for example, the barrier of unanimity. and secondly,
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yet we need is also this new type of democracy because our liberal democracy, your liberal democracy, our liberal democracy, is on the truck to day on the track from outside european union, china, russia. it's also on the truck, inside because of the social media, social media like facebook are in their mining all liberal democracy. so a direct involvement of the citizens inside the decision making process of the european union isn't really the good answer. i take a real answer to words. yeah, this degrading the liberal democracy to the social media. as we see today, why is my facebook undermining your liberal democracy? why is that the? is that the i think that's, that's obvious. at least everybody understands that when you go on facebook and you
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put, i don't know what, for example, chinese communist party, on your facebook, that for the next 5 or 10 years, you will receive mostly only posts and see posts and messages concerning the chinese communist party anything you put yeah, but if you know how they have other things you'll get to play. sorry. let me explain the algorithm. this behind the system of facebook are made in such a way that at the end, people only see what they think and not the counter argument. and that's a very good mother to make profits in the, in us, maybe in united states. but it's a very bad mobile for. ready the plural is in our liberal democracy. let's come back to the e you. the question is, is that often raised about accountability among the commission? do you believe that this commission is accountable?
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how many of it's commission is that get fat once and it's history one since 958 is their accountability and the commission? no, that's not. that's not true. that's not what you're saying. you're all forgot to mention the fact that this parliament at a certain moment has dismissed i who told me a whole commission once and also a commission president in the past. that's not true. so that have been many examples of, of that. but it's true that we need to increase the power of this year at the bottom and to make it a real european democracy and the power additional power that is europe and parliament is power unpack station that is something we are missing for dom when and the 2nd thing, what we need is the right of initiative for this european parliament to initiate
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new or proposals. so if you tell me that there is not enough power for european parliament in controlling the commission and in controlling the council and in developing an emerald policy, you're righteous. we talked earlier about what you called failing courage among europe, leaders and in 2018. you went further and you said the union tends to be rather weak in the face of global challenges. that was pretty much the case, wasn't it? when donald trump was president, allowing europe to be lectured like naughty school children about nato funding and who you could trade with and who you couldn't pretty degrading, wasn't it? but yeah, but it's, it didn't fundamentally change with buyer buy that or trump boat or, or criticizing or europe in union or for that and for good reasons. not because there is not sufficient funding, but because there is not sufficient cooperation inside europe. you know,
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that you're up is spending is spending more than china on, on military expenditures. we are spending in europe without even the u. k. 4 times more than the russians on military. the problem on military in europe is not the level of spending. the problem is that we do it $28.00 times $27.00 times now after the breaks it and that we dedicate everything $27.00 times. we spent more or less 35 percent of the americans are military and we can only do 10 percent of the operations of the american army. what does it mean if you spend 35 percent of the americans and can only do 10 percent of the operations that you're treat to 4 times less f. and that's the consequence of publication. so my plea is that the fastest as possible will create as european defense community as a biller of nate, a european pillar of nato. and that's the real answer to our geopolitical weakness and not spent a little bit more of tax money as we do today. but do you agree,
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though, one of the commissioners, cherry breton said the other day that something is broken in transatlantic relations, and that's neither a reference to trump, nor biden is, is the something that he was talking about temporary or is the trans atlantic alliance coming unstuck? irrespective of who's in the white house, my know what, what, what i see is the absolutely need for a reform of the north atlantic alliance. and why i'm saying that when joe biden is coming a few weeks ago to europe, to the nato summit, he is talking about china. he's talking about china that is in the south pacific. no, that's not the north atlantic. that means that our defense issues to day are not related only to d environment in a north atlantic, but our world wide. and there, there is a need to reform the nato into a global work alliance off democracies. and that on a continental scale,
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that means that in the north american continent, the asian continent, european continent has to do a real effort to create defense communities, to defend or liberal democracies said, the nato is today still and aligns of individual countries. and what i thing is that we need to trans to tense form it into a real alliance of continental defense communities, defending liberal democracy. you want to reform nato. you want to reform rules inside the european union. you want to change the unanimity rule. you want a lot of reforms and you want a federal, a federal europe at the end of it, a sort of one size fits all. it's what if you don't get any of these reforms that long, rudely, not rosie you got that, said you have a complete misunderstanding of what federalism is, because a one fit for all that's not that federal is. that's the opposite. it's the
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opposite. you see, in the united states of america, the united states of america, all 50 states with 50 different constitutions, with 50 different armies, and so on and so on. so when i am a, i'm a federalist. that's true. but federalist full. meet means that everything, what you can do in the local level, you know, the local what you can better do in the national level, what you do better on the national level, but where there is an added value. 6 on the european level that you have to do on european level, and it's the only way for the europeans to defend our interests, all values on in the new world order that is emerging today is emerging that exist already today. that will be a tie where it will be dis, shenice will, will be decide on our standards. what will be decided on our way of life. and the only way to counter that is to organize a federal democratic in diversity european continent. a european union gave
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a house that has been good to have your own comfort zone. thank you very much. ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah,
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mercy. when i arrived here i slept with 6 people in a room as a 9th fema. it was hard. i wish fear. i even got white hair is learning the german language, hit me a lot this kid to me and craig, but unity to interact with you want to know their story, migrant verifying and reliable information for migrant. ah, this is d w. news and these are a top stories south africa has said.


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