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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Guy Verhofstadt  Deutsche Welle  December 31, 2021 7:30pm-8:01pm CET

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every day counts for us and for our planet. global ideas is on its way to bring you more conservation. how do we make cities greener? how can we protect habitat? what to do with them all our ways? we can make a difference by choosing smartness solutions over stains, said in our ways global ideas. the environmental series included $3000.00 on d, w, and online this week on conflict zone, at least $27.00 migrants perish in the english channel. will this now force europe to commit to safer migration policy? i hope it is a catalyst that finally give a hofstadter in brussels member of the european parliament and the former prime
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minister of belgium. if e u member countries can't agree on a life and death issue like this, what's the point of the you only on that you level, you can manage this as polish security and flicked water cannon and tear gas on refugees or their border with bella. bruce, what happened to the use much vaunted values and what reforms are needed. also the trouble with facebook and the need for a revamped nato. all on conflict on ah, giver house that welcome to conflict zone. let's talk 1st about the migrants who drowned last week since as the crisis of the moment it is, would you think this is going to be the catalyst for some new european policies on migration? i hope so because this tragedy in the, in the north sea is not the, not the 1st tragedy. and we have seen so many casual piece tragedies and in the
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mediterranean. now this is happening in on the north sea. so i hope it is, it got the list finally to have a common european migration policy because it's already more than 20. yes. that we are talking about the common migration policy. and it never happened because a common migration policy could to avoid the tragedies as we have seen last week, france code for urgent talks to discuss this tragedy. but then it disinvited a british minister because it didn't like one of bars. johnson's tweets, you don't do that if you are serious about finding solutions to you. i don't think that you start to do such talks with, with, with tweets that maybe the way that his policies. but that's not the way we do it inside to the european inside you to be in union. so i think more
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important is to concentrate ourselves on what could avoid such tragedies. and again, there is a change in the european migration and sign a policy is absolutely key, like there is also a need for you k for united kingdom to understand that they are now out of the european union. and they need to take their own responsibility for the migration and the final policy. well, but i think i think they understand that i'm talking about diplomatic. i hope so. i'm not sure. i'm not so sure that maybe you understand that i'm not so sure that the, that the british government and body johnson of the, this diplomatic stand off may be great fun for governments. but the only people who are going to get hurt by this are the migraines, isn't it time for everyone to stop playing games with these people's lives?
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it's, it's at the time now earth to do what are the most governments, especially also the british government, but also other governments have always avoided to do that is to develop a common migration and assign a policy that is based not on unanimity, a ruling on, on the decision by unanimity but unqualified majority because that's the reason that we don't have the last 20. yes. a common migration and as island policy, it is already since 1999, a debt. we decided that migration would be a common policy in the union, and since then nothing have happened. and the 1st thing to do is to create a and to establish a common legal migration of policy. because a many of this strategies r o, d u, the consequence of the fact that we don't have a legal migration policy in the union. and the 2nd thing to do is to have common asylum standards in union. so there is no shopping any more possible. and
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a 3rd thing to do is to a really better manage our outside borders of the union outside walls of the union . yeah, and unfortunately i want to come on to the ants. i bought it in a minute, but if, if, if, if e u member countries can't agree on a life and death issue like this, what's the point of the, you the point of the you is that only on the, you level, you can manage this. you see the red brit britain cannot manage a solo, it needs to ask to european union to take action. otherwise, tragedies will continue. tragedies for people want to reach and want to go to a united kingdom. and the point is, art point is as a euro, as the european parliament, we have already said for years. and i hope that in the next conference in the future of europe, we will achieve that, that we need to get rid of unanimity. the problem is that the fact that you need
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the approval of 27 mabis days before you can act. and in the meanwhile, such tragedies are happening because of this impossibility or to go forward on migration policy. because the unanimity or requirement that the that exist today. okay, but at the same time that is not, this is ailing. australia leads out the only feel that it's not the only field the you is facing a major credibility issue because it doesn't just sell goods around the world. it tries to sell values as well. and i wondering which values thee was selling when poland was filmed, tear gassing helpless migrants on the border with belarus and showering them with water, cannon and freezing temperatures. not the greatest advert for you. values was it doesn't, does not make your sorry, went not, no, not, not your. now you're not very objective in the way you're put your question. because the problems at the podium border are not a problem caused by european union or caused by poland. that are problems caused by
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luc ankle by belarus. you guys was an appropriate way to treat them. i drive to use and abuse or migrants, man, they got abused by police. again, that's a problem that has been that it's a problem caused by luca change. so it's not very objective to invert the roles and to do as the migrants of the border between batteries and poland are a problem that has been caused by the european union. that's not, and you know, it's very well it's and what we have done in the meanwhile is to try to have agreements with dose countries where these people come from. so to avoid that, they are abused by a dictatorship in the neighborhood of european union, as has been the case at the last weekend months. and you are right. i deplore as you use of violence and death. so, so some of the you, it, you vented into have resulted and i'm talking about the particularly dirty deal
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with the libyan coast guard, paid in effect now by d. u to hunt down my going boats in the mediterranean and take the human rights violations visited on them. can santee i, yesterday, i have did that. you're wanting it may be your next time you don't invites me or to have you interview. you invite the commissioner was responsible for that because exactly as a member of parliament. i have criticized this to what's the european commission. i'm not a member of parliament will have to if had to policies of european union. so next time you take european commissioner responsible for these matters and you ask him his questions. i'm as critical as you on the fact that this happening and as the reason why i did that, european migration and assign a policy needs to become a european union matter, whether it is not today because all elements that you have to put forward the problems in the naulty in the tragedy we have seen in
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a naughty the problems at the border between poland and bellows. the problems in the mediterranean, ah, to wear it, sir. a libya and people coming from there and abuse. there are all the consequence of the fact that all member states are responsible for that. and europe in union is not. so it's not the question of european union. it's a question of a lack of european union, a lack of european migration and asylum policy. but next time my proposal to you is invite the commissioner responsible for it because i am as critical towards what is happening in the military and in the naughty as you do. your critic go about it. the media is critical about it. the reports have been coming in and going to the u . n. and human rights organizations for a long time. and yet nothing gets done about it. why do you think that is a because a, like i, i will explain for the 3rd time of a 4th time now that this policy's for the moment asked old policies of the member
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states because there is no unanimity inside european council to change this migration policies even at the moment when so many people refugees came from huh. yeah, syria and the conflict and see her 2 words. europe. yeah. it misses marigold said okay, be a shuffle. thus we gun at the big them. we got to take them inside germany. that was a national measure without consultation read the us. so we need absolutely a radical change in no way utopian migration. an asylum policy is treated in unit and we have to do it in a common way. we have to do it on the european level, whether good bore the management with common eyes. i'll m and a migration conditions and with a legal migration part where because a lot of the tragedies are in the military and, and in the naughty, are the consequence of the absence to day of a legal way to come to work,
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to be active as a migrant in europe, you claimed earlier this year that e integration has been enormously important. you said to enshrine rules, rights and freedoms, into our societies in europe. but in a number of e u countries, those rules exist only on paper, don't they? and your powerless as you said, to do anything about that, hungary and poland for instance, with all the rule of law issues. they know how to game the system, does they and they can paralyze it if they want to hold up discussions on the budget, hold up this and that so far from enshrining your rules, the ear is being strangled by them isn't though absolutely not. there is a way to tackle this above. there is an unwillingness in european council under d, at some states and government and under d prime ministers are to tackle that problem. my are what i expect is that with a new german government arriving a government of a socialist liberals and greens,
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that this new government will be far more critical on this issue. let's be honest about it until now. we didn't tackle the problem and angry with didn't to tackle in, in, in poland it because the european council, under the leadership of mrs. malika was not capable to do it. the volume that was gaffer is lou said they were got it on. they think they had a car, sorry, the commission launched the procedure on it. and european court of justice also took its responsibility. the only institution would didn't take into responsibility was the european council. and i, i think my expectation is that with new german government arriving empower now. this will change and we will see really european union who is active using the instruments to make sure that the values in european union all are so applied in countries like poland and hungary. you've criticized european leaders for lack
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of courage. you said the, the instruments, for instance, of that with a for dealing with rule of law issues in pakistan and hungry to exist it the instruments exist. you said only the courage among leaders is failing. so why do you think you leaders are so gutless on this issue? the of for the simple reason at that in the council, everything is decided between them. i have never seen in european council and was a long time, a member of the european council. one colleague attacking another colleague, one colleague tried the sizing and other colleague, one colleague, a yacht sanctioning, i should say, a, another colleague around the table that doesn't tell that doesn't work in european council. therefore, i think with the arrival of a new german government, i think that we'll see europe in castle far more critical towards what is happening in poland and in hungry. and in top of that, i think that in the future, we need to maybe to change the instruments and changing them as it means to give to
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european court of justice de capability to competence. not only to give in judgments about what is happening in poland and hungary, but also to decide on sanctions. what is the case in every normal or rule of loan system in every country? so i think that fundamentally and ultimately it will be necessary to give you competence to european court of justice, but to give them the possibility to decide on sanctions towards countries that you're not applying the fundamental values of, you know, you mentioned earlier, the conference on the future of europe, which your co chairing, yet another inquiry into what europeans want from their institutions. has there ever been an organization that does not navel gazing and introspection? no, it's not, it's, it's not a consulting, was it pumped is absolutely not that. what we are organized where the conference on
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the future of europe is an unseen exercise. well, we try to combine representative democracy with participatory democracy. the synthesis where you're talking about in totally 800 selected, randomly select that people are not her or not dad to give their opinion. ah, and it's over. no, no, they are participating in the decision making process. it's well the 1st time i tink, in, in, in a modern democracy, a dad to citizens are directly involved in the decision making process. that is what we are doing. that's eva, eva. i went them and not many of them either. not many of them. the numbers taking that known as natalia the island is, are so small as to by almost irrelevant. i don't know, i don't know. there are, for the moment that are, for the moment, 4000000 people will are on the platform who have got access to the digital platform. the conference on the future of europe. there are $10.10 of
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several, tens of thousands war on daily basis. debating on the future offer d a european union, and in top of that, that has been in a scientific way, 800 people selected. and all these people have nothing to do with european union to participate in the decision making process. we have seen such err. yeah, what we called citizens convention, already in france, already in ireland, already in germany. but it's for the 1st time that it is organized on a ben european level. and my expectation of this exercise is not to listen to the citizens because we know what the citizens want. we have the euro barrow meter, we have surveys, like it's in the case also in written note, the big difference is that the citizens are, are selected will continue to participate in not only formulating recommendations, but also in the answers. the politicians will diff,
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to their wishes and to do recommendations you said to regain people as trust in democracy. we need to fundamentally revisit the way democracy's work. so they are 4 and with the people instead of that, why not concentrate on result? yes. find a way for $27.00 desperate countries to put together on the major problems that are facing them. something that they have conspicuously found to do. so for what does what? well, for the simple reason that the pressure that can be created by a participation of the citizens will be so huge that i am, i am confident that way you can find 2 ways to break the resistance off of some member states to go forward inside to european union, we need the power of the people, we need the power of the citizens inside this conference to go to barriers,
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for example, the barrier of unanimity. and secondly, yeah, we need this also this new type of democracy because our liberal democracy, your liberal democracy, our liberal democracy is on the truck to day on the track from outside european union, china, russia, it'll show on the truck inside because of the social media, social media like facebook are in their mining or liberal democracy. so a direct involvement of the citizens inside the decision making process of the european union isn't really the good answer. i take a real answer to words. yeah, this degrading the liberal democracy to the social media sbc today. why is my facebook undermining your liberal democracy? why is that the? is that the i think that's, that's obvious. at least everybody understands that when you go on facebook and you
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put, i don't know what, for example, chinese communist party, on your facebook, that for the next 5 or 10 years, you will receive mostly only posts and see posts and messages concerning the chinese communist party you put yeah, but if you know how they have other things you'll get to play. sorry. let me explain. the algorithm is behind the system of facebook are made in such a way that at the end, people only see what they think and not the counter argument. and that's a very good mother to make profits in the, in us, maybe in united states. but it's a very bad mobile for. ready the plural is in our liberal democracy. let's come back to the e you. the question is, is that often raised about accountability among the commission? do you believe that this commission is accountable?
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how many of its commission has ever get fat once in its history? once since 958. is there accountability in the commission? no, that's not, that's not true. that's not what you're saying. you're forgot to mention the fact that this parliament at a certain moment has dismissed i who told me a whole commission once and also a commission president in, in the past. that's not true. so that have been many examples of, of that. but it's true that we need to increase the power of this year at the bottom and to make it a real european democracy and the power additional power that is europe and parliament need is power and fixation. that is something we are missing for dom when and the 2nd thing, what we need is the right of initiative for this european parliament to initiate
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new or proposals. so if you tell me that there is not enough power for european parliament in controlling the commission and in controlling the council and in developing an emerald policy, you're righteous. we talked earlier about what you called failing courage among europe, leaders and in 2018. you went further and you said the union tends to be rather weak in the face of global challenges. that was pretty much the case, wasn't it? when donald trump was president, allowing europe to be lectured like naughty school children about nato funding and who you could trade with and who you couldn't really degrading, wasn't it? but yeah, but it's, it, it didn't fundamentally change with bio biden or trump boat or, or criticizing a utopian union or for that and for good reasons. not because there is not sufficient funding, but because there is not sufficient corporation inside europe,
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you know, that you'd up is spending is spending more than china on, on military expenditures. we are spending in europe without even the u. k. 4 times more than the russians on military. the problem on military in europe is not the level of spending. the problem is that we do it $28.00 times $27.00 times now after the breaks it and that we dedicate everything $27.00 times, we spent more or less 35 percent of the americans are military and we can only do 10 percent of your braces of the american army, what does it mean if you spend 35 percent of the americans and can only do 10 percent of the operations that you're treat to 4 times less effect? and that's the consequence of publication. so my plea is that the fastest as possible will create as european defense community as a biller of nate, a european pillar of nato. and that's the real answer to our geopolitical weakness
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and not spent a little bit more of tax money as we do today. but do you agree, though, one of the commissioners, jerry breton said the other day that something is broken in transatlantic relations, and that's neither a reference to trump, nor biden is, is the something that he was talking about temporary or is the trans atlantic alliance coming unstuck? irrespective of who's in the white house, my know what, what, what i see is the absolutely need for a reform of the north atlantic alliance. and why i'm saying that when joe biden is coming a few weeks ago to europe, to the nato summit, he is talking about china. he's talking about china that is in the south pacific. no, that's not the north atlantic. that means that our defense issues to day are not related only to d environment in a north atlantic, but our world wide. and there, there is a need to reform the nato into a global work alliance off democracies. and that unaccompanied mental scale. that
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means that in the north american continent, the asian continent, european continent has to do a real effort to create defense communities to defend or liberal democracies. so the nato is today still an aligns of individual countries. and what i thing is that we need to trans to tense form it into a real alliance of continental defense communities, defending liberal democracy. you want to reform nato. you want to reform rules inside the european union. you want to change the unanimity row. you want a lot of reforms and you want a federal, a federal europe at the end of it, a sort of one size fits all. it's what if you don't get any of these reforms the longer the not true, the augusta, that that you have a complete misunderstanding of what federalism is, because
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a one fits for all that's not that's federal is that's the opposite. it's the opposite. you see in the united states of america, united states of america, all 50 states with 50 different constitutions with 50 different armies, and so on and so on. so, when i am a, i'm a federalist, that's true. but federalists will meet means that everything, what you can do in the local level, you know, the local, what you can better do in the national level, what you do better on the national level, but where there is an added value on the european level that you have to do on utopia level and is the only way for the europeans to defend our interests, all values on in the new world order that is emerging today is emerging that exist already today. that will be a tie where it will be dis, shenise will, will be decides on our standards. we will be decide on our way of life. and the only way to counter that is to organize a federal democratic in diversity european continent. the european union gave
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