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tv   REV  Deutsche Welle  March 11, 2021 1:30am-2:01am CET

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we live in a competitive world it's just cold it's cold it's too cold. to be free but the world is changing you must incorporate a motor. vehicle. or commodity starts march 22nd on t.w. . isn't it time to admit that your government is always willing to sacrifice those human rights for the sake of business if the united states by screwed or $30000000000.00 a year in russia i cannot explain to my electorate why germany should be treated differently germany's human rights policy is under the spotlight these days after a fresh international criticism of its north korean to gas deal with moscow and accusations that it's soft on china my guest this week from bothers the christian democrats m.p. and various nick is it his government's policy to junk human rights in favor of business.
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m j asked me welcome to conflict zone hello to long term a lot of people doug like your north stream to deal in part because it puts a lot of money into the kremlin's hands at a time when russia shows sharply declining respect for human rights isn't it time to admit that your government is always willing to sacrifice those human rights for the sake of business. i don't think this is a fair description of the north so too is a long term project that has been critically viewed by some in germany for many years i think there's always been differences of opinion between foreign policy and economic policy people also in my own party. but when i think we have to see where we stand with this project it is briefly before completion i think if it were to be
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stopped unilaterally at this stage this would probably trigger billions of dollars in damages to be paid. to some of the project companies including a gas brum i'm not sure that is the adequate strategy to deal with it at the moment but do you think you say that and to have say that but but you seem to cling to the view of the government seems to cling to the view against all the evidence that trade can bring about positive change your kind of the minister said that peter out now said that last summer i've always been convinced that change can be achieved through trade but in the case of russia it's been changed for the worse hasn't it while you've been building up your trade relations over many years russia has crashed through sovereign international borders into scenes crimea it's murdered its opponents on the streets of europe in one instance with nerve agents lowered cyber attacks on key institutions and jailed the leading opposition figure alexei the phony and your trading relationships have done absolutely nothing to discourage
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those actions of the i think you have to you have to scribe quite adequately a very negative development of the situation in the russian federation that is something that we have to deal with that we have to deal with in the appropriate multi lateral formats we have taken the case of one of ours not really seen to the open see dollar you know let me let me give you an example i'm leading the german delegation to the council of europe's parliamentary assembly where this is where russia is still at the table we have a ongoing investigation on the knob on the case in all its aspects we will. we have a monitoring mission sent out to russia as soon as that is feasible and we are now we are dealing with issues that are at the core of the council of europe's mission like in particular compliance with verdicts and rulings of the european court of human rights and that is a scene where russia will have to stand up and will be challenged and we will have to see when if there is no improvement and no. adjustment of its behavior that we
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would have a very critical debate of about russia's future role in this international format for example we have taken note of on the back to you in this ng i will you yeah but by d. linking business and human rights you've given up a virtually the only levy you have to bring out serious change if you were serious about change you take up the suggestion of the social democrats who propose making the start up of north stream to conditional on a change of behavior by the russians like releasing the valley or easing tension in eastern ukraine something like that but you won't do that off the will you. now i'm what i'm saying and i'm quite in agreement with some of my social democratic colleagues on that that if we have an open discussion with our western allies about the future of energy relationships with russia in extra get then we may come to a 2 conclusions that we'll have. also the option to have some sanctions on actual deliveries of oil and gas but that is this is not something that should be dealt
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with as a trying to by letter i say german russian relationship then we also have to talk about $30000000000.00 of all accrued all purchases of the united states in russia which puts more money into russia's pockets as. dorsenne could ever do then we should have a very a lot of things about going to survive because the us isn't making a stand you're done that on principle here what my question though when i say want what what conclusion do you think russia and the other trading partners of yours have drawn from this statement that you d. link business from human rights they don't the conversion the bubbling will huff and puff a bit on the margins for public consumption but under this government it's never going to let human rights stand in the way of a business deal is it made that clear i don't i don't agree with that and i object to the truth the attempt by some to single arise germany in this issue i think if the whole of central is the new by senator from russia if the united states by
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schools or for $30000000000.00 a year in russia. cannot explain to my electorate why germany should be treated differently from anybody else if we come to a joint position in the in the western alliance that relations with russia are deteriorating to extent that we should put energy relations on hold or then i think we have a basis to talk but not by trying to unilateralist. germany in its relationship with russia for other purposes like trying to sell. shale gas oil from. shale gas from texas and i think we should have a very honest debate and then it should be applying to everyone and not everyone in the you everyone in the western alliance but not as trying to single arise germany in this in this context well let's let's talk about that debate mr nick you're always concerned to be seen as good europeans acting in support of common interest you're the driving force in that so in january when the european parliament
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overwhelmingly passed a resolution calling on the e.u. to hold the completion of knots trying to with 508 votes as it happens you simply ignored it pretty casual attitude wasn't it the fact that the project causes significant friction with your european partners specially france the baltic states poland doesn't seem to be of any importance to you either does it again let me let me reiterate we are not at the beginning of a project if we and i can. proved to you that when when the project was set up beginning there was a lot of criticism including myself on the foreign policy responsible in my own party and the board we now have to look at a situation where the project which has all legal permits in place is short of completion and i would strongly recommend that we shift the focus of the debate on the actual deliveries rather than of a specific piece of infrastructure and if there is a. justified objection against energy supplies from russia
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it should apply unilaterally and it should not only apply to one specific mode of transport and i think on that basis i think we should move towards a common position i very much in agreement with secretary blinken who more than 30 years ago. in a very shrewd analysis concluded that apply sanctions to a close ally is a very bad idea and it's bad for alliance and corporation when he might that change he might change his views by now mr negs certainly the white house and president biden have labeled north into a bad deal for for europe and a bad deal for the world. i want to ask you this 18 companies have now pulled out even at this late stage of the not strain to project they've pulled out 18 companies announced at the end of last month worried about sanctions that they might target them directly and by the fact that both democrats and republicans have
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voted to expand sanctions later this year crucially most of the companies that have gone are insurers so if you can't get the work now and the written the project in serious trouble isn't it. again i think i know there is a lot of resistance in congress probably one of the few. subjects on which democrats and republicans may be able to queen congress i understand that the u.s. administration and the secretary of state is having a difficult dialogue with his own congress in that regard but i can only recommend that we try to get to common ground rather than seeing an ally by unilateral measures i think this is poisonous for the relationship and i know that smart people in the government including secretary clinton are fully aware of that poisonous effect and aware that this is not the right strategy we are i think prepared to work towards common ground with our allies in europe and in the united states but we should do this in a way that is not trying to single out one particular country for other selfish
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reasons well you can't at this stage tell me when the project is going to be completed can you isn't isn't it time that germany listened to some of the criticism at home and abroad instead of just ploughing on regardless i see that you've also lost bill finger the german civil engineering concern what if other companies jumped ship now are you seriously telling me there are no discussions within your coalition about putting completion on hold no cold feet in those upper echelons of power are invalid. i think again we are following the rule of law and this is a project that has all legal permits in place trying to terminate the nominate that by unilateral action by the german government at this stage would probably trigger billions of dollars in damages and remedies i think they're smarter ways also going forward that will create more leverage also in the relationship with russia as you mentioned i think the idea is to have them kind of a backstop mechanism and if we target actual supplies rather than the completion of
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a particular piece of infrastructure this is something that could lead us towards common ground also with our partners and allies in europe and in the united states you talked earlier about reservations within your own party about this norbert redken the foreign policy adviser has called the project an instrument of political war he presumably meant it as a matter of political war for the kremlin the kremlin has used it as a lever political lever in the past its gas supplies to europe what makes you so sure they're not going to use that lever again i think we have a history of more than 50 years of reliable energy supplies from russia even during the time of the cold war but it was something for which i'm 2015 they interrupted the the gas supplies to europe. i was talking about germany i think there were specific issues with regards to certain countries in central eastern europe we have to a lot to reverse gas flows in the european system the bulk of the gas supplies to you
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ukraine now comes from west to east rather than from east to west i think into creating. our partners in central eastern europe into a pen european gas infrastructure is a very important element of making them more robust more resilient against potential interference from russia we should work together to reduce their dependence on energy supplies from russia and even in that regard north stream 2 can can have. can be helpful. we we are aware that there are concerns that clearly countries in center is it would rather reap transit fees. on these supplies but if we can ensure that they will be supplied from western europe it should also benefit their own energy security going forward mr nick also controversial in your party as well as internationally is your policy towards china regarded by many as to through this here the idea of change through trade vandal
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dog hunger or as you call it in germany has been a spectacular failure on the human rights front hasn't it. i think it is not only a german experience i think it is a universal experience that we have to take leave from 2 assumptions are seeing explicitly or implicitly that china policy has been based on the one assumption that if g.d.p. raises above a certain level that in a country that liberalization of democracy will come almost automatically but we are also facing. inside that unless what we have traditionally believed that a state led economy can apparently be pretty successful and pretty competitive even over the longer term and i think that is something that we have to draw conclusions from. when ignoring the issue of human rights i mean germany along with the rest of the e.u. was content to sign a major investment deal with china even though it refused to make any concrete
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promises about complying with human rights standards including the ban on forced labor and you ended up being satisfied with a totally meaningless pledge that china would make what it called continued and sustained efforts to ratify the relevant convention it shows what really matters to europe these days and to your government doesn't it money money over morality money or human rights. i would i would totally disagree i think but let me let me challenge the contrary position i think if i am convinced that decoupling is a very. misled concept economic decoupling will not work for anyone in the world not even for the united states i think the idea to be to cut the world into 2 or 3 different pieces or do not interact with each other in any way is a false is a false strategy and i think what we see also was a recent speak speech by secretary blinken that european and american perspectives
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on how to deal with china converge i think from a european definition of china being a partner a competitor as a satanic rival at the same time i hear from secretary blinken a relationship with china will be competitive but it should be collaborative what it can be and adversity and what it must be i think this is a lot of common ground and i think we need to adjust it there again we're getting away from the subject of human rights and i understand you want to steer it away but the fact is you are becoming known for some pretty questionable ethics in china last year the boss of fox wagner her but this was asked about the wisdom of opening a factory in shin jang where up to a 1000000 we go muslims are incarcerated for indefinite periods affectively in labor camps and he said he didn't know anything about it is ignorance the best defense that your industry has these days. absolutely not i think. and you will not hold me accountable for any potentially misled opinion by any
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senior german or businessman what i'm saying is that taking this to extremes and say that simply decouple the relationship is not working for anybody in the world may i remind you that it was the former prime minister of singapore who hugo in foreign affairs made the point don't make a choose between a relationship with china or with the united states we need to be able i think 2. choices between respecting human rights or not caring about it it turns out the german firms are supplying the technical backbone for the huge textile industry also engine jank where hundreds of thousands of forced to work in the cotton fields do you like the optics of that particular scenario. i think we have we have just in acted alone or in the german parliament which requires. significant compliance of german companies also in their supply chains throughout the world in securing human rights and labor standards and environmental standards not
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necessarily to the delight of everyone in business i think we have come to a conclusion in a law that will be much more effective and that i'm pretty convinced that we will achieve many objectives in this regard not by government to government relations but ensuring that global companies in their supply chains are taken hold in responsible also by their customers for securing that minimum standards for labor and environmental safety. safeguarded across the world in their global supply chain is mr naik your firms have supplied machinery that was almost certainly being operated by slave labor in shin yang i asked you whether you like the optics of that particular scenario according to customs data obtained by the south china morning post sales of german parts for textile machinery engine jank have gone up 30 times over the past 3 years 30 times while the reports of appalling human rights
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abuses multiplied in that region week after week do you or do you not find that unacceptable. i find it hard to accept. not being able to do my own research on whether the specific thing that is. created or suggested there is is valid but it is a major issue of concern as you as you raise it and as as i mentioned i think we are in acting legal requirements and obligations on companies to safeguard. respect for human rights and minimum labor standards across the world 'd in their global supply chains that is something that we are just in acting that is i think not a question bilaterally applying to china but on a much more global scale and. that is what what we need to do it is it is a piecemeal process it is difficult it is challenging but what i'm telling you is that just trying to occupy the potential the potential presumptious moral high ground as we do not do business with anyone in the world anymore is not
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a strategy and it is that sometimes suggested with particular vigor. towards germany by those who would then prefer to fill the spots for that business themselves so i'm a bit opposed against hypocrisy in this regard that is these are standard that sort of like universally to everyone and where not one particular country should be singled out for other reasons well one country which is supplying more than anybody else to the textile industry in cian jank where slave labor is being employed deserves to be singled out doesn't it and that's your country and what you don't particularly find this is a proud moment to be confronted with this news that you are supplying these companies inching janke but your party seems to have its head in the sand where this is concerned doesn't where this whole issue is concerned well as well as the west the red line here you appear to have crossed it don't you by supplying this machinery to these firms inching jan yes or no face simple
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i think we are in germany we are not. state run economy we are. a market economy we we apply a certain minimum standards i have just mentioned that we are in acting a new law was regards to global supply chains of german manufacturer us. so that is something that we are doing i think not every single export decision by a german company i think can immediately be attributed to. the german government when you can do something about outside you could do something about it if you want to and you could condemn it in your party and so that it in your child's like will condemn it but you don't but you do and that's telling in itself isn't it as well as i said we have just acted a new law on compliance to human rights standards in global supply chains we have worked in particular with the textile industry to. have
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a seal of approval for compliance with certain labor standards avoidance of china's child labor never saying in places like bangladesh. or otherwise so that these are issues that are in a global economy that are more and more intertwined with continuously we have these difficult challenges but what i'm trying to work towards is that we use the leverage of international firms to. impose labor standards across the globe which i think i'm pretty sure would be much more successful as a long term strategy as trying to impose that by government to government relations ok and in a time we were left out of boycotts in the time we have left mr nick i just want to look at what many people are calling the coded vaccine fiasco in germany it's not what you needed in the run up to parliamentary elections later this year and crucial regional contests this weekend is it polls already show huge dissatisfaction 2 thirds of germans say they're are unhappy with key aspects of
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your covert policy particularly the slow backs in nation program fact is you've become accident prone. doesn't the government's running out of steam well i think what i see is that for for understandable reasons i think patience is running out with people who have been. exposed to to lock down. policies for quite some time there's a lot of impatience understandably there was a lot of hope regarding to vaccination i think some of the expectations of probably being unrealistic i've always taken the few if by media 2021 we would have universal vaccination this would be a very good result and i'm pretty convinced we will get there i think there are different strategies you have the main professional body for g.p.'s the german association of g.p.'s saying it was bad enough that the e.u. ordered too few vaccines too late but now we have all these jobs being stockpiled and used now that is unforgivable isn't it that's coming from the main you know we
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were fashionable body. we will be opening the vaccination program and of this month's toward the g. piece i think that will have to make a major contribution to the i think if 50000 g.p.'s every day wrecks in 820 people each we will have $5000000.00 vaccinations per week we will we will be able to complete this by by the end of the summer but it's also fair to say that for the g.p.s. . minimum supply of. vaccines per p. was necessary to involve them if we give 1010 vaccines per week to people put it into a very difficult decision we're now rolling this out more universally and i'm pretty sure we get there we took different decisions and some of that will have to be critically reviewed from hindsight to focus on that on the over 80 years old of those being in care homes we took some you don't have a long time around public perceptions you have these key elections coming up and
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your party's reputation has been further damage by the scandal of 2 of your fellow m.p.'s forced to resign because they netted huge commissions on deals to procure mosques other scandals are also piling up along with the accusations that your party is shoddy and corrupt is it. i think we have we have seen individual cases that are totally ashamed me and totally unacceptable i think we need to go through a very clear process of making sure that compliance with african standards is is insured. i think this is nevertheless individual cases we should not try to use them in a democratic fashion to discredit parliamentarians and politicians who serve the public to its best interest but we are of course in a responsibility ourselves to to clean up whether unforgivable. violations of men that are not on taxes a lot of things is filing up on there another cd you member of parliament axel
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fisher is being investigated for subsist becton corruption prosecutors claim he and other former and current members of the under stock receive voting bribes from azerbaijan he says the allegations are groundless another philip the 2 is under scrutiny for his lobbying work for u.s. company is this the tip of the iceberg in your party what happened people got too greedy is it let me let me let me be very crystal clear on the other by john of the council of your issue i took over the position of axel fischer at 2800 to take care of the anti corruption investigation in the council of europe which we undertook where and a number of members were banned for life from the assembly both mr fischer and mrs trends were no no longer sent to to the council of europe by my party in 2018 but most of them have not been renominated s. candidates for the next parliamentary election sometimes in a democracy cleaning up takes takes a bit of time all right i'm staying and variously quaver with but having out of
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time where i only have time thank you very much for being with us all conflicts are appreciating you thank you good to see that. the big.
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and his deed of your name is a lie from berlin to brazil as deadly as 24 hours since the beginning of the pandemic the daily death toll climbs above 2000 people for the 1st time we bring you the latest from announce the amazonian city that has been devastated by a more contagious virus fareed it's also coming up on the show 10 years a since japan was hit by the triple disaster of earthquake tsunami and nuclear meltdown we take a look at how it has changed japan.

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