tv Check-in Deutsche Welle January 29, 2021 1:30am-2:01am CET
get a coincidence. that there are previously the earth was just in a mess the chemistry lab. where the improbable but. the creation of our solar system with our planet is a bit like winning the lottery there is only. one for earth which. starts feb 11th on t.w. . a real threats to vladimir putin that's how commentators are describing kremlin critic alexei navarro the son who is seeing a courageous and charismatic opposition leader or an opportunity fighting a personal vendetta against president putin told russian authorities certainly responded nervously to his recent return to moscow no found he was immediately arrested in turn he put out a documentary film showing
a giant colors allegedly belonging to president putin that triggered more claims and counterclaims and violent protests across the country so on to the point we ask in the valley against putin who will win the russian showdown. thanks very much indeed for joining us here on to the point and with me in the studio is stari a sukar choke a freelance reporter and presenter born in russia and based in berlin darrius says novell these investigations and the attack on him have for the 1st time politicised many young people in russia also with us alexander our expert on russia an advisor to the energy giant gazprom he argues that russian society can live with corruption but if the younger generation feel they're losing. that could change quickly and
a very warm welcome to just steven pifer academic on the list and former u.s. ambassador with a focus on europe russia and much else besides he says the west should push back against the worst of russian misbehavior but it should also leaves the door open for dialogue thank you for those 3 statements thank you for being here and i'd like to begin with you daria if i may begin with flooded me putin himself he's clearly under pressure that's big news he's under pressure from alexei and a vile nice so tell us a little bit about mr move on the himself so missing the volley has been around for over a decade has been a big presence on the square protests in 2012 which a lot of people here will probably remember is the biggest to date actually the protests that took time the took part took place this sunday were smaller than what happened a lot. of army is well known for his videos and i should say
he knows how to speak the language towards the young people that's why i talked about it in my statement so he's charismatic he's charismatic and he knows how to play this irony how to make things stick so for example his genius find in the last video was that he talked not only about the giant pile of the talk about the toilet brush the 700 euro which became beneficial symbols of protests and know if you noticed but a lot of people turned up at all of brushes some of them sprayed with gold or i've seen one of the price sticks at 100 euros which is something this kind of stuff sticks. definitely knows how to reach people he's very well organized he's got the so-called headquarters like offices actually without having an official political party. movement has offices all over russia no political party hasn't quite that not united russia thinking party does not have
an up or going with this is why the protests the some there were a market for the number of towns they took place and we had about 100 towns small ones like to not just moscow st petersburg and maybe novosibirsk ok so these pretty impressive stuff does that mean that when we say the alexander that he is the man vladimir putin fee is the most is not true if you buy into that if one thing i want to tell you are. of course correctly working with. but i have also looked like a demo. also positions truth so i want to be here is a political presence a rarity here. is of course it is presented to all of the very young generation in russia or the young generation who have never experienced communism who never experienced this kind of future which their. relatives fathers and grandfathers grandmothers mothers have experienced during
their life this is a generation which grew up with i would say democratic traditions in the ninety's but felt this more positively and then there are the tiffs suffered in the ninety's and they have a kind of perspective for us which is completely different from that of the and here i come to the point where the majority of the russians was still conservative traditionalists and who wants to have a strong russia 1st of all the majority of people in russia will not follow. because they have other values and menu. them are also oriented negativity towards the west because of the ninety's where a lot of the west is being seen as it's a faithful to for a assistance of what it took to russia but on the other hand of course for pushing and for the kremlin it's a big danger that if not only could unite and organized the urban use
behind his political platform also the political full faith from of him is not quiet understand the bullets for me at least he is against corruption but we don't know is he more right wing is the more left wing. incidents are leaning in itself a very mixed record. and he wants to become president this is old his character he i think he doesn't want to be opposition leader he doesn't want to sit in the parliament he fights 1st and it was put in and this is again something what makes the political career of him of himself in the future a very dangerous ok let's proceed yeah if i could follow up next i think it's going to be interesting to see what the young generation in russia does now because if you look over the last 25 years the russian population has been i don't want to i mean be passive i mean the protests that you saw 800000 people in 2007 moscow but moscow the city of what 15000013 yeah right right if he in the my don
revolution at some point you had a half a 1000000 people on the sea of ukraine ukraine a city of 3000000 so the russian population has not yet come to the streets in the way that you've seen people come the streets in ukraine or in eastern europe earlier in the ninety's or in many maybe even belarus ok but the question is going to be is does that younger generation now come out and it was interesting 2 things about the protests on saturday one was the numbers that you cited 100 cities all across russia that's pretty widespread the 2nd issue i thought was kind of interesting is that when you watch the protest the protesters were pushing back. in the past if you watched russian protest the protesters are relatively docile i mean they don't really push back in the way that i think we saw on saturday and that might be of concern to russian security services ok very important point. is up next 1st of all the control power in russia for 2 decades but his leadership has
become increasingly authoritarian and now for the 1st time there appears to be a real challenge of his dominance. he is the pop star of the russian opposition. is mobilizing people across the country is a russia free from corruption and rooted. in video posted on the. graduate explains how it's being robbed by its elites he has been experiencing ever more of the state's power through arrests and courts trials his popularity is growing especially among the young but he is also controversial initially aligned with the liberal democratic party. only later temporarily relied on nationalist slogans. he finished 2nd in moscow's 2013 mayoral elections in the 2018 presidential election he was barred from running against putin. 2 years later he was attacked with nerve presumably by secret agents of the f.s.b.
the russian president makes fun of it without ever mentioning his name. if they had wanted to fatally poisoned him they would have. upon his return from germany where he was treated and convert the kremlin critic was again arrested how dangerous. for the president. of the voice of young russia. i was just want to bring up one thing is that we're talking about the scale of time and yes it is impressive but right nic. door to russia through which has been protesting on the street since august every week sometimes even more had pantries of thousands of people turning up every day they have been arrested they still haven't given up but. there have also haven't given up belarus politically essentially remains the same country that it was it hasn't changed which and they
have a charismatic we're going to hold off i would say for many younger people from russia and from belarus there has been a lot of writing about to head off going to russia she's interesting for us she's understandable she is more mainstream and. i have to ask the question the question that begs is it is there something more general happening here we're not just talking about absolutely something happening here the west was an anchor for russia and then in the in the end of the eighty's when gorbachev start of the the evolution if you destroy people looking towards the west as the best alternative to the soviet regime now the west is less and less for the majority of people and alternative it is set for the west in the years to hear it but it's true because the west to sit still problems the same demonstrations this is russia saying. to liberal the west is badly organized the west is violent this is the primitive no
he's saying they have the same problems they have the same police brutal police which you think beating up demonstrators and that it states in germany and holland and so on so build teach us and the problem is that the russian society is becoming a western in many sense not the younger people but the older people and the traditionalists in russia saying we want to live in europe but in a different system of values and i think that the conflict of values between the liberal europe and the liberal of traditionalist russia and many parts belorussian of the country is the main conflict which we have seen in the between the west and russia. in the past when ok less possible incentive. but i'm not sure totally because if you look at them i don't river and ukraine in 2014 while it morphed into a broader protest against the talk receive a victory on a coach and the growing authoritarianism it started out as a protest because young a coach said he was not going to sign an association with the european union and
for a lot of ukrainians they saw they say you're taking away my chance dark closer to europe so i think europe still has a draw it may not have the gloss that it did say 15 or 20 years ago and the question is going to be in a place like russia where i think you're right there is this clash of values do younger russians say no we still want the values of europe and then how does that work out internally with russia and i think that the problem russia has is i think russia would. there's a segment the russian population and i think this might include of many people in common who would like to join europe but on russian terms and i'm not sure that europe is prepared to accept russian values and i think that's the clash of my point with the values of europe have changed you might disagree but it's also true that the west to become somehow militant also in the wars a lot of i work with many russians in the peter sense you know there is a western. yes but it's all king about it until america holds germany it's can hardly be described as a function as
a liberal society we can we can talk of germany's probably the best model for liberal democracy in the world as i'm saying this as a german but in the same time we see that we are having certain problems and problems inside europe well that's not the subject of all talk right now i'm always talking about the russians who i work with young people in the in the us parliaments in russia made the survey if they're saying yes we want to be a part of europe we want a utopian values but not at any price of the west should stop teach us we also have something to bring into this europe this is. this is not a contradiction to what you have said it's only a side to even a correction but the important point which i would have to make that things have changed a little bit from the times which we know when the the if the college revolutions and the other revolutions were conducted they took place in eastern europe ok that was the world in many ways according to putin and he put in the russian leader has
surprised many people by actually responding to these documentary that we heard about the russian leader said he had yet seen the film but he nevertheless dismissed it as boring and brainwashing for the 1st time devalues the film to attack putin directly there's plenty of footage of a lavish black sea palace the largest palace in the world apparently alexander. you're giggling in the background almost. how corrupt is not in the putin i think he's not himself is not corrupt russia is corrupt and he doesn't need the. corrupt. personally it's not corrupt i don't think that he has personal that he was i don't think so it has to be proved i don't think so you ask me i think around him the oligarchs are corrupt the world in russia has a problem of corruption the major problems that he has his cronies and i will
listen same to you as it's cost the why they're building this to demonstrate the world that they can build a better call a council than the french 400 years ago or you know decide and i did say that a number they want to have more yes yes we laugh at this and i'm trying to explain what they what they wanted to create big moment. for a strong russia at the end of the coast yes for us it's ridiculous. i think it's it's a symbol of power tools to show the presence at the black sea lions that like the palace that we remember so well in the remaining in capital bucharest this is far more a i think more expensive but it's built by the oligarchs and accounts of the project of course probably one day they thought that putting lives a use is casilla he steps down but he's not stepping down. and i think that it's been interesting that while the kremlin says you know putin has nothing to do with this they could say who owns it who built it and they're totally silent on that
point it's clearly it's not be there for somebody else and i think in the absence of any further information you know it's clearly been built for putin on the broader question. i mean whether or not putin is personally corrupt we may have different views on that he has tolerated an incredible amount of corruption in russia and i guess that was part of the biggest surprise when i was still in the u.s. government back in the 2000 when putin came to power i think the one thing that we really expected was he will type of things i mean i think there was a sense in russia that things had become too loose in the 1990 s. too much chaos so he would restore a degree of order but there's also a sense that this is somebody who actually is going to crack down on corruption and i don't think we've seen that crime. but it's not it's a centerpiece of some somebody who would who would be he was viewed as an almost leader a man who stood by his word that was the that was always the message around putin and there was hope i mean i don't remember.
but there was hope that something will change that russia will become the western country that so many people hope for it would in the ninety's and of the mass would be cleaned up and we would have a normal life and it has not come to fruition. you had in the demonstrations there were a lot of young people who said i haven't seen another president other than vladimir putin i can say the same there was even a mean that there is not a cat in russia that has been born before put him. through. and just i think is such a focal point of this corruption that many people have associated himself so much in the fabric of the russian society that if we want change has to go sentiment among many things the basic problem is that the russia as a new idea what is life and we in the west and the united states when it was futile in life when the russians didn't have a jump from communism from the tarion system was a. major t.g.v.
into something else of the capitalism where everybody tried to the coverage the corruption is a problem of the whole society but the people at the top of it rich but people of the below also in many ways corrupt of fortunately not only in russia but in eastern europe they think it's normal it's a way of life in order to survive they don't think it's good think it's a way to survive but they say they at the top should steal too many too much money and then not of course is cost was showing that corruption. is exploding at the top and this is what makes people of course wonder whether you know i thought this would be. an alternative a genuine viable alternative to the putin rule that we've seen now for 20 years i think it's too early to say i mean you do have. to see what happens on sunday i
mean are you going to see the sort of evolution that you saw in belarus where people are prepared to go into the streets on a more regular basis i don't think at this point we can gauge how powerful the vollies pull is but he's also going up against a very organized authoritarian system a very established police state that you know is going to push back. and that's going to be the clash i i personally i think putin made a tactical error i think arresting involve the end of all these return actually is put putin in a box because you know he now has to do something you know back down or perhaps send vonnie jail for a number of years and that's going to get attention in a ball me that no volley might not have attracted had he simply come back and been allowed to return and then go on with whatever is going to do what evidence would you if this were a sort of a council of wise men and women which it indeed it is in many ways to save the german government was a couple and say was advice do you have for us in approaching this crisis in
russia with the with the with the with the boots in regime and then of on the challenge. i think the west should continue sanctioning especially the only gox the corrupt top of the russian society how have a lot of assets in europe and there have been a lot of investigations coming out i'm not saying that the western powers should act on the pointers from these things that's definitely not the case but that they should maybe have a better look of people who get european citizenship the practice of the golden passports so-called cyprus has been discontinued for now but a lot of people have got the practices like this as long as something like this is happening in the west putin and the likes of him have the full freedom to claim they're not better than us you know i think there's actually one good develop in the united states is with a law that was passed in december it's now going to ban the ability of shell
companies to own real estate assets in the united states i suspect there's a huge amount of real estate in miami in new york that's owned by russian oligarchs probably ukraine oligarchs and it's all through the shell companies so we don't know who you're going to have to now disclose the beneficial owner and that would be useful in a number of ways been for exam. but if there is a decision in the target individual or regard we then know who to go after because it without a 2nd idea which i hesitate because it's somewhat un-american we don't tend to hold families responsible for the act of the father but i do wonder if the rest look at sanctioning not just the oligarch but families mean if an oligarch can't travel to europe that's one thing but if the spouse can't make her and your shopping trip to london or if the kids can't go to college that might have a different impact and it's harsh you know but you know it might be a way to target some sanctions that actually begin to stir up some concern among the people who are i think or close in the putin inner circle it sounds very
plausible to me that you know more about these things alexander tell us is that they have problems. doing this because you many of these people have british or german or american citizenship and you can't punish your sanction your own citizens in this way and of course people want to i don't want to sound cynical but direct russian money of course for the banks of foreign corporate and the west and the and the very real problem icing. is i don't know what to do but i think that if the sanctions will be too harsh if for example not streaming to will be completely stopped in the hall as a sign to have to put in when we are against you then this will mobilize of cause more and more people not for but against not violently and against the west in russia we should see this. one thing that people. as i followed the story in the end of the past couple of weeks one thing that people have said a lot of people have said is that they're very impressed by the courage shown by
alex and of nevada and returning to the country and i will because it has been talks about him because he has indicated that he has thought about it and we need to understand the gravity of the situation here wolf this is the question is his life at risk. i think nobody is completely safe in the russian jail as we know from the case of mr magnitsky and how many others. let's not forget about the covert outbreak which obviously have brakes of corporate russian jails and i don't think healthy after the chemical attack can be a 100 percent healthy. i mean i think the russian security services tried to kill him once that should be a message and certainly i think he's at risk of spending a long time in jail i mean they will find reasons to keep him in jail and again there's that question is that the smart thing for the kremlin to do because to the extent that they either keep him in jail or if in fact you know he does die under
mysterious circumstances you know that's going to make him more of a martyr and how does that then react with the population that certain crimes reported he has already let it be known that he will not commit suicide he will not take his own life and that seems to be a sort of a reassurance to the world that you know or reassurance not an indication that he believes it to you know he could be knocked off if something happens he's saying it wasn't by my own hand but he wants doesn't want to give up he wants to fight for the presidency i think he wants to become the top man in russia and therefore he had to return there was no alternative no option for him to stay here and work for a. bunch of deliver for someone else i mean radio liberty i mean that would be his fate here of course he wants to go back to fight of the else he would lose of course his electorate and i think that was the kremlin so that he would simply he would stay out of the dilemma of the kremlin and what are they going to do to bring him into prison this will highlight this points again and make him even more popular to be a after him or. to kill to poison him would be even more disastrous
mistake so. option out big to germany stripped of citizenship sent into exile imagines it will happen will happen but. i think that this is one of the very. options which in the end make up we began with doris our let's give daria the final word to. people in the west like to talk about it so very often liberals in the west talk about the ultimate demise of. russia be a better place after i think there is a chance to improve for russia after britain is gone but it's not a guarantee. for all we know you have some kind of political. don't know thing it's gonna be a while to play ok. thanks very much for joining us for our hope you've enjoyed our conversation. if you have enjoyed the show come
in moria. the 15 minutes on t.w. . he sits in jail that he is everywhere. alex where you know how mean are you to the russian opposition leader is a man to mass protests. despite shocking police violence young people especially are protesting corruption and state despotism they're now taking to the streets everywhere across russia some goose. it's the. first girl who could have. been so that of us as we are also some of the most certainly vocal in support of. what's able.
to deliver. it's about billions. it's about how workable it's about the for. foundation of the new world order of the new silk road. china wants to expand its influence with this trade network and so the conflicts are inevitable the consequences unpredictable the can is the shaking of the chinese state as a model of money at its disposal for the most and that's how it's expanding and asserting its status and position in the world in the face of the bully china is promising its partners rich profits but in europe there's a sharp morning you could never accept money from the new superpower will become
dependent on. china's gateway to europe. starts feb 19th on double. play. play. this is news live from the lead astra zeneca defends its corona virus vaccine saying it is effective for senior citizens that's after german public health officials said they could not recommend the shot for people over the age of $65.00 due to insufficient data regulators are set to decide on friday whether to approve the vaccine for use in europe.