tv Corona Spezial Deutsche Welle January 14, 2021 11:30pm-12:01am CET
there's a lot that can be done to. make up your mind. you have 10000000 e.u. citizens living on that wall for a tarion rule we can not tolerate democracies in europe yet we have not crawlers only. the insurrection in washington has focused attention on the upon fragility of democracy in the us but how strong is democracy in europe i guess this week from germany is going to create found an m.p.
from angola merkel see the new party and chair of the e.u. affairs committee in the federal parliament why the big gap between the ease rhetoric about rights and the rule of law and the dismal reality in parts of the union. country from welcome to comfort zone. when borland took over the rotating e.u. presidency it set itself the tasco of protecting fundamental values and rights in the european union and i want to look 1st at whether it meant that objective in any way a toll according to human rights groups you have now almost $10000000.00 each citizens living on the authoritarian rule in hungary aren't you ashamed of the.
well i am not totally satisfied with the results and to be very honest any way we are able to achieve the 1st step to come that financial aid from the budget of the european union to the established rule of law wasn't quite my gma wasn't my question about hungary you have 10000000 e.u. citizens living under our fora tarion rule and you have the commission's vice president e.u. commission vice president vera sure of or went so far as to call hungary a sick democracy how many sick democracies can you tolerate in the european union these days. we can now tolerate the sick democracies in europe. but you can break but you do not know one second please let me choose my sentence because we have not problems only in hungary pulse of poland was unmarked when a journalist asked kill and we had to surf the aura t.v.
not repeat. the case so well i think it is necessary to make more pressure on the states and with the budget we have really a jewel now in our am and so i am satisfied then we get the 1st step but i think also it's not and will be not enough in the future but it should be normal to respect the rule of wrongs don't you yes well they've gone a long way from what you regard as normal that this tool that you're talking about is a mechanism which germany proposed that looks as though the e.u. would make payments to member countries conditional on their respect for the rule of law the problem for several countries was that it was just too soft in fact it was all hype wasn't it when you looked at the fine print of the proposal it turned out this mechanism could only be used if the rule of law if the violations of rule of law affected or seriously rest affecting the sound financial management of the
e.u. so in other words it was all about money and that wasn't enough for a lot of countries was it i think money is a very good tool to meet pressure on states because they beat the mind and soul finally it was necessary to find a compromise because i think you followed the baby how difficult it was to get a solution concerning the mutual financial strain or and also they don't carry far which allows now to rebuild colleen of the concerns state usually encounter carona rights but anyway now we have not only mechanist. the combination with financial aid. also article proceed. finally we have the. european union up to that not to decide if there are violations or a way i think it is worthwhile to have an obvious combination. change but most
agree prime your article 7 process is against poland hungary of going absolutely nowhere and the looks as though none of this is going to result in any sustained that action whatsoever and this latest mechanism also ended in failure because both hungary and poland announced that if you went ahead with it and they would veto the latest stimulus package straight unashamed blackmail wasn't it and you gave in to it. no there there i don't share this of opinion because her really always respect the decisions of the i car and this is of on me personally the red blood and the red light means to respect the decisions of the high court so they're sciences and hunger and in the past so now they that will alter the future there we have more problems all over and saw my. past the more to respect the stupid decisions and the now we have once again this is millionaires
who respect rule of law otherwise we can lock them up and this is the one consequence when i was fully. feeling a. consensus i have to take issue with you when you say that you know this mechanism survived intact what what you did was in fact climb down but when brokered a deal that will have the effect of delaying for months even years the use of this procedure and then only after the european court of justice has ruled on it and the hungry in poland have had the chance to challenge it who knows how long that's going to take so this has been kicked indefinitely into the future in other words nothing will happen will it. i don't think so because the decision which will be taken by the european car will also have any impact from the very beginning and not only for the future that means when that decision will be taken by the european car
so this was a very important point for the netherlands and so once again. and really we have not had this combination between the budget and the respect for law which was not the case in the past let's see how well it works it set a precedent that you will climb down you will climb down every time there is a challenge and every time states say we're going to blackmail you and hold up your stimulus package or your budget i think it was the right view one step in the right direction but it's only if it's a trip normally i think you should be very clear the state withdrawing its european union should respect rule of law so that of the reason why the article sound or if only to regulate it with a few sentences in the treaty take also recip rights it is
on the basic under the basic of the tickets. but not on article 50 of 58 that only a few sentences why because we thought it will never happen that one state will leave the european union that nation wide these rules are very cool or if you want the treaty so it was our duty it was our challenge now to better not meddlers for things which are not really understanding and when i was in ali is our understanding i get a problem in arguing to them and to the candid states so if the states who want to join. you are a union because i tell them well if you want to join your union you have to respect democracy you have to respect the rule of law and the cetera et cetera so but also they have to respect rule of law one e.u.
official said after this latest you call it compromise i call it a climbdown said the rule of law a mechanism is like the stability pact for the east it will never be enforced and will only create political resentment on all sides that's the view of some people within the you and while this mechanism does realize that and they have the right of that for this opinion but those don't have happened isn't that the opinion is based on not up and they just look at what happened and really astonished that they judge other mechanisms which now starts to work we have now to our reverse but i think that's really funny. to come down a mechanism which was all null and let us not. nobody can really tell that it will not blow then i don't see so it will work less in the future and it will not be the case then i'm really sure there will be the pressure
to allow her to achieve it in the right sense so i'm satisfied once again that we got this mechanism. and not let ourselves how it worse well yes i would say than that you are easily satisfied with the creek down because human rights organizations for instance human rights watch are far from satisfied they said last month the last weeks have shown that leaders who violate human rights have no shame in bullying and blackmailing the whole european union to shield themselves from any consequences for their actions you set a dangerous precedent here where you allow those to take place well i don't want to interrupt you but we have to be very carefully we are speeding up our command state of the european. everybody knows how important it is to the respect rule of law and so we are not talking about the state from another car in the world
with the doubtful regime with that awful governance and so our so we know what you are talking you are talking about your kind of union states that disrespect the rule handling it we have to make a difference we are not speeding up the state. we are human rights are violated every day mr speaker let me let me just make a point here let me just let me just like i'm going to end our european union that's not all. the costs are then we have also to really get the reaction last on and i think it was part of the barracks all presidency because it was not a hole in the neck and it is most of it was also to come to a result in the local stations finances of your finances to create about the let me let me let me let me just raise an issue here you say you're not talking about african states you're talking about members of the european union you're talking
about in the case of hungary at least a leader who effectively gave himself absolute power under cover of the pandemic who's been politicizing the courts who's decimated independent media who's been chipping away at academic freedom these are not things they signed up to do when they joined the european union so unless there are mechanisms and so far no mechanisms have persuaded the leadership in hungary to change their proper course of policy things are going to change and to go back to my original question at the top of the interview what have you managed to do to ensure rights for those 10000000 hungary and who live according to the human rights organizations under or thora tarion rule in the middle of the european union you seem to find that acceptable they don't. well once again i think it is worthwhile to make a difference also it is hungary's we have a government 1st which is elect to own democracy. are.
always criticized when we have not asked fair conditions for the media us no that's the point it is not the case that no one can tell is free again so that's my kind were it say it's necessary to make a difference and once again we want to have a different quality i want that. each media can chris and insult on an economy basic which is just surer and which will not be violated by the state so i think it is not only black and only white still we have differences and yes i think the point when we are a dog even when the european commission is still painted the treaty is our. then
the duty of the commission to ask for a decision of the european car and this was a done and hunger a respected decision you're just a creeper you talk about the european commission deciding whether a state is in line with its rule of law values or not look a bug area 14 years in the european union it's still getting away with some of the worst practices of the communist era even though it's been under special monitoring by the e.u. how does that happen. well the 1st i don't share a dog pee and it has crossed the colonist. time i don't care really not becoming this time people suffered another jack and the company's risky mother come hysteria it was. violating human rights every day no democracy not all of us well i
criticise in the case of parking area east of the system of law concerning. to all. cases of corruption we have cases which take 10 or 12 years in courts true law is. in example an example of a long time so there is has to offer something to do with a rule of law are. one point which i criticise very very not mr mr chris brown you have massive government corruption this according to independent n.g.o.s you have mafia capture you have democratic backsliding a politically manipulated and almost dysfunctional just sists says them is that good so far but what how is that in any way in line to any degree with the
pledges that bug area made 14 years ago and yet in 2019 a spokesman for the commission reported that bug area had made sufficient progress to meet its commitments and accession to the e.u. that cannot be right so why this blind guy being turned towards bug area i visited by a carrier off and. yesterday integrated in the european union and also on the procedures of the european union that makes a difference mr creek. found the ngos and various garda government seem to have seen more problems in bulgaria than the e.u. commission the 2900 human rights report from the us state department said officials in all branches of government in bulgaria reportedly engaged in corrupt practices with impunity bribery conflict of interest elaborate embezzlement schemes on top of that you have from the un committee against torture of finding that mental
institutions are forcibly administering intrusive and irreversible psychiatric treatment on their patients and that torture has become commonplace in that country how do those values fit in with the modern e.u. idea of what countries should be doing what they said they'd live up to and haven't . i know this totally right that it is not acceptable that we have circumstances like that mentioned once but. let me say it's perhaps not a complete picture of the area because sure things have to be developed in the right direction but also other. had to cheat in the us. nowhere near done. today cannot be compared with at times 203040 years ago so in all these countries that have to be developed and they have they argue about it and this occurs we have the european commission which is
serving the developments and sure that there is also a lot of pressure from the european commission to the states and also from the other member states and independent foundations which we have also carry out like on a. base also n.g.o.s they showed another picture also they created that they criticize a lot of. especially in the fight against corruption there at the gate and has the strong arm of the government and of the government is not able to. make the force and especially progresses then it has to show consequences. yeah but then there are any consequences bugg area has had 14 years in the european
union and it is still torturing people on a regular basis so clearly whatever measures the e.u. is applying aren't having the desired effect are they. i think that's not the right . that that's not the right picture because people can live free in a bug area and. we have to proceed and of this is the case but what i'm asking for is more engaged fight against corruption and this is cannot be tolerated because corruption abuse by leading the poorest of the poorest people why because they cannot join to start full competition to pay for. things which are really not at its start it's not only it's not only to do with it or it is in the state it starts also daily like in hospitals it's cool when 'd you know when students want to get. better results so we
have this. daily let me say on the other hand i am a corruption. till it will be we will have a result in. the state. which cannot be tolerated we have to war in the fight against corruption and this includes that proceeding in front of the coffee house to show results after a few years of tense that's my point this has to be shot. where you are remarkably complacent about it the commission is remarkably complacent about things like torture mafia capture and the minute political manipulation of the justice system let me turn to another subject for the time we have left babs it's worth the e.u.
taking a good hard look at what's going on in america at the moment this is the unfolding story of a populist president staging an insurrection to try and prevent him being ousted in a free and fair election how long before some of that starts to happen in the you that is the concern that this in washington should be a wake up call that it should listen to. well the 1st a remark that we are really lou forward not to the presidency of mr biden because that's not what i asked that's not what i asked that necessarily to be mentioned because. the dialogue between the united states and europe is in stands and so also the respect of rule of law but prosy it seems like in america like in europe and there's all share one point that in a former times of war self understanding there was common sense that democracies
are self understanding and strong and we have to assert today that iraq receives and are coming more and more under pressure worldwide and. as we had to observe it. so we have to fight for our own values we have to fight for democracy we have to fight for rule of law once again in former times it was british self understanding today it is not because this will be decisive our national power will leave tenor expense years finally mr creeper let's come back to germany and there's a general election in september angela merkel is retiring and in a few days the c.d.u. your party will elect a new leader while none of the candidates to date seem to be generating much enthusiasm you're most popular politician health minister young span isn't even on
the ballot don't you want to win elections. and very optimistic because we have 3 candidates which are. very motivated and i and i don't share it europe you're in for an actual remark there are. many and sure it will not be easy when i'm going out and we're leaving because she was our chances are horribly very long period of time since 2005 and a solo that's also quite novel that everybody will live as own style but it's an open race and for me it's very difficult to predict who will write what will it will it's one of the candidates friedrich mad says said
that immigrants are to blame for rising welfare costs and unemployment in germany do you really want your party to go down that road putting immigrants in the firing line just to woo a few far right voters from the f.t. hasn't there been enough resentment and hatred directed at immigrants that are going on is. not right where you want to mention it melts it should be the right sentences and this is. it not saying what he said it's now concerning the refugees what's the up with the well if you're in bosnia and herzegovina. it should not be the case that germany will go once again if front of the because now it's also in the responsibility of other european states to take care of her otherwise we'll create a full effect so which we will search in 2015 and 2 of us and it is 16
this should not be a repeat it once so i think. we have also areas. like insecurity for example a lot of our with our state and so it cannot be the solution that can draft usually can come. to the 'd european union or in the states we need a solution we need a solution and a european one arm because. i think once again all these states signed the declaration. deal that liberation or protected refugees but in a way germany did a lot in the past and this can be done down and one time not. going to create bomb unfortunately we've run out of time we have to leave it
point. to the point out the stuff on the on the monitors on t.w. . meal and on game fishing those that 700000000000 land on the roads killed worldwide shit so that we can. but it's not just the other little subtle suffering it's the environment we want uninsured to find ways to shift if you want to know how old when clicked off the priest and the whole just changed doesn't exist listen to our podcast on the screen since. i'm scared that the volume or that's hard and in the end it's a me you're not allowed to stay here anymore we will send you that. are you familiar with this. with the smugglers would lie and say. what's your story.
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