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tv   Quadriga - Migrant Crisis Time for Fortress Europe  Deutsche Welle  June 29, 2018 2:30pm-3:00pm CEST

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because that she can families and society too because. my father will be angry sometimes i think the way he did. command structure joining w. hello and welcome to quadriga this week's european union summit was said to be dominated by a deepening political crisis over immigration whether a compromise can be found and its outcome could decide the fate of germany's governing coalition and ultimately of the european union itself but there was little that the member countries agreed on going into the summit to save one point that stronger measures are needed to tighten europe's external borders and to
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strengthen the coast guard frontex a new government in italy says it will no longer be europe's refugee camp and is turning away boats carrying exhausted refugees is the e.u. throwing its longstanding humanitarian principles overboard. migrant crisis time for fortress europe that's our topic here on quadriga here are our guests monica is the director of the german section of the international organization for migration in berlin and she says arrivals are drastically lower across the mediterranean get the sense of panic in crisis is at an all time high now is the time to go beyond a crisis footing and forge a long term humane policy with migrants recognised as people not numbers. and it's a pleasure to welcome. to the program she is a free. journalist from lebanon and she says the crisis europe is facing now is
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partly a fusil of its acted to act early on what was happening in syria during the early days of the revolution. and also great to have with us he's co-founder and director of the public policy institute in berlin he says the migration issue has long stopped being mainly about refugees it's now a tool in the fight for political power and identity in europe a fight that has the potential to lead to an implosion of the european union. so welcome to all of you i'd like to start out by picking up on your opening statement. because in fact our rifles are very definitely lower according to the u.n. h.c.r. the high commission on refugees see arrivals in twenty seventeen we're at one hundred seventy thousand more or less that's down by half of what it was in two thousand and sixteen and by eighty three percent compared to twenty fifteen so
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given those numbers where is this sense of crisis coming from what's driving it thank you thank you for the question thank you for having a un in the show. i think that it comes from two thousand and fifteen basically it's still we since two thousand and fifteen we have addressed the europe has addressed the situation in the crisis mode continuously we have been speaking about the need to have long term solutions to look at integration to look at the late legal migration pathways that go beyond. beyond resettlement and relocation such as labor migration schemes etc but nothing of that has actually happened and in terms of arrivals actually the burden still is a lot on the front states such as it's early and this is why it is important to. to move review dublin and to have an equal sharing there has not been an equal sharing
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of responsibility among all the member states dublin being the treaty that regulates both registration and distribution of refugees trying to enter europe and i want to come back to that and the burden sharing a bit later but let me come to you trust in better because you said in your opening statement that this crisis really isn't about migration itself but a bent centrally about politics and that seems to be occurring oddly enough not only in europe but in the united states at the same time why are we seeing this shift to what you refer to as identity politics or even tribalism right now. because there have been versus social political entrepreneurs exploiting the migration issue for their political gain you can see you know pointed to the u.s. president trump has been been doing this. in germany i mean that i'm the far right there all right party in germany prime minister orbán there's been extremely successful and they've read all the establishment parties and they're scrambling to
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catch up so as the aftershocks in a sense the political aftershocks of twenty fifteen that we're experiencing now in germany were experienced in in italy which had been. you know has long been at the front line off receiving irregular migrants in europe and that has finally elected a government that says no longer we will not no longer be the country that receives most of the migrants and we will turn the boats away so this is culminating into a political crisis in europe is murray domestically driven by political entrepreneurs who exploit this issue and the public sentiment that there is a crisis and in germany for example yes the numbers have gone down but we do have a slight administrative crisis domestically in terms of dealing with returns of rejected seekers the system is not working the system is still in shadow soul there are things to be fixed again i want to come back to where that system is it working
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but just one question about the german domestic political situation because you mention the far right party the a f t but in fact the party currently stirring up a lot of trouble and possibly willing to bring the whole government down is the chancellor's bavarian conservative sister party the c.s.u. what's going on there but they're terrified of losing their majority in bavaria their absolute majority there's elections in bavaria is making headway for three years the system parted by her and sister party off chancellor merkel has railed against merkel's refugee policy has said this is the biggest mistake we will but they've only protested and they haven't actually implemented any changes in this they say their credibility is on the line and now we have to put a stop sign because they're facing elections and bavaria so it's very much driven by the fear of the altered alternative for germany right wing party what what they
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are doing and of course could bring down a government that's only been in power for a little over three months again about him in her first statement to the parliament after the new government. came into place the chancellor chancellor merkel said that it had been a grave error not to see that the war in syria would have drastically consequences for europe when you look at where europe stands today at the current debate that's going on do you hold out any hope that a summit like the one currently taking place can remedy that error going forward to be honest i think it's a bit too late because when we're talking now about the immigration crisis in europe and germany you would always referred to two thousand and fifteen gratian has always happened in europe people simpler countries always come across to the continent and that wasn't daily i mean that was a problem but it wasn't as big a problem is now it wasn't set in ink to the governments to collapse it wasn't
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threatening the unity of europe but when we're talking about two thousand and fifteen is because we're talking about a mass migration that hundreds of thousands a million syrian one allowed to cross into germany and well now the germans are looking at it and say can we can't cope with this we can deal with it and this is why the current issue is if the war in syria was to come to before it was allowed to reach the breaking point and before all these people were running away from you know the massacres of the regime and you know the other terrorist organizations that found themselves that the issue in europe wouldn't have been wouldn't have gone that far i think. let us perhaps take a look at the treaty that we've mentioned several times that is supposed to regulate immigration into europe you mentioned the million who crossed in twenty fifteen they entered germany partly because that treaty the dublin a treaty was suspended by hungary and other countries which simply couldn't cope
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with the number of refugees they were supposed to register at the time let's take a closer look at the dublin treaty and where things stand. dublin regulation is an e.u. law determines which member state is responsible for reviewing asylum applications in principle refugees must request asylum from the state in which they first entered the european union. right now most of the refugees cross the mediterranean sea to get to greece or italy both countries feel overwhelmed by the influx of migrants and asylum seekers many of these people would like to move on to northern european countries like germany or sweden. but some countries are threatening to send the refugees back to the e.u. state where they landed in italy says that's not fair and demands that the refugees be distributed more equitably among the e.u. countries germany has registered about one point three million asylum seekers so far. still does this mean the end of the dublin regulation.
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certainly italy would say it ought to mean the end of the dublin rules monica. italy is proposing that they simply be jettisoned that europe adopt a new system so two questions to you also as in the talian first of all how does italy born a disproportionate share of the burden has it been left in the lurch by other countries and secondly who is looking for what in this current debate take us through it briefly if you would. yes has a point because it has been the frontline state and there has not been an equal sharing of the responsibility the new proposal. with the european parliament looks at the possibility for refugees to put forward their
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asylum claims not only are not necessarily in the first country of entry and. this gives the possibility to have a different sharing actually. i would like to give also another number that shows that that we were going into the right direction and that is the number the from thinks gave recently talking about the returns frontex just let's remind people is that coastal guard that is yes and they gave reason to figure that says that in two thousand and seventeen more people have returned or been returned in whatever way forcefully voluntarily than people have come in so we were on the right place it takes time though and this is this is what we need to to look at. and to give the stability coming back to the burden sharing point thorsten. shouldn't it have been clear from the inception i mean the dublin
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rules were signed in one nine hundred ninety should it have been clear from the inception that that was this was not it workable system that it put all the burden on these front line countries i mean the sense here in germany is that germany's borne the brunt of it all but in fact italy didn't get a lot of help this true and when italy should have been clear at least from twenty ten twenty eleven on words when italy was actually saying this system is not working for us we haven't increased in in migrants coming to us and help us and the german interior ministry minister a c.e.o. soup of bavarian politician that at the time said no italy you deal with this we won't change the rules because germany was not at the receiving end only after germany decided to accept a disproportionate number of refugees and twenty fifteen actually to save the pressure that was on europe at the time that we're saying we need to change the system and we first of all thought we should have
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a mandatory quota to force hungary and other countries that don't want rest. g.'s to take them in they have backfired spectacularly so right now the consensus in germany i think is that there should be a fair system of sharing but countries should be able to opt all off receiving refugees within within europe and then instead pay a disproportionate share of border control or pay other countries that are taking in a disproportionate share of migrant but we now agree with italy that the front line states of the border states shouldn't be left alone dealing with arrivals we in this case being really german government. let me ask you to give the but i'm just to put the burdens in context as it were and also looking beyond the dublin rules which of course only apply to the european union to international law it foresees or mandates keeping refugees as close as possible to their home countries that is
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international law so to speak tell us what that means for a country like lebanon remind us please of how many refugees your country has taken in and what share they make up of the population well lebanon has a population of six million people out of those six million four million are live in the use or three and a half million and nearly two million or one and a half million are see their city and that's when you know the state was established and those other stones are still in lebanon and refugee camps. so hope now is that the city of refugees who are newcomers in comparison to the palestinians will one day go back to syria and will not end up in the same situation as the palestinians you know also what makes things even more complicated and difficult for lebanon is the fact that it's supposed to be half christian and half muslims and there are supposed to rules together and any attempt to.
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noise this balance. governance or population is very is taken very badly by politicians especially now that this you did refugees are mostly muslims so it is throwing a lot of kind of hatred feelings towards the syrian refugees in lebanon which is. not a good place and it's affecting the care that is provided to the refugees and just briefly lebanon is a very poor country of course is it getting the current of financial support and help that it needs to deal with this amazing. share of its population of course it is it is getting some support from the e.u. and from the. terms of education and health towards that effigies but as you said lebanon is a poor country and already suffers from a lot of problems corruption and
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a lot of other problems on the government level that odd reflecting the now and getting bigger with you know the population getting bigger also and are getting harder to tackle with the same political politicians begin there and not have a plan a specific plan and to tackling that on problems so you adding burden to a burden that is already difficult to deal with and you know problems are just piling up with no solution in sight trust a bit where is public opinion to stand here we were talking about the barium conservative party and its attempt to essentially win votes with this anti immigrant course would you say here too there is now a surge of opinion of hostility about refugees certainly wacom in a culture that supposedly all germans subscribe to in twenty fifteen that's gone and i think. the majority of the b.
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if you look at all the population of segmented i think twenty percent are open welcoming and they think is the greatest thing that we. of becoming a more diverse country twenty percent are increase in credibly hostile and think this is means our country is going on the drain and the other sixty percent there splits they want more control of who's coming in and they think twenty fifteen was an exceptional situation that should not be repeated but they also think we shouldn't close or close our selves off completely they don't think we should turn muslims especially into scapegoats for all the ills in our society which the right wing is doing and they also think that we shouldn't act unilaterally and europe's all right now the sea is you have quite a lot of support in saying we need to be able to return those migrants are denied asylum sixty percent of germans think that's true we should also a lot of germans think we should make it less attractive to come here and have in
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kinds of port instead of cash cash support but majority of germans also doesn't want to act unilaterally and jeopardize the shang and system and of border free travel and the european union monaco unilateral versus multilateral action that is the essence of the debate here within germany but also of course within the e.u. as a whole they're going to be looking at this summit currently taking place whether they can find some sort of multilateral approach meanwhile the bavarian conservative leader mr as a whole for the interior minister of germany says look we simply have to move forward unilaterally because we're not going to get a multilateral solution that works what's wrong with that what he's proposing to do essentially is only part of the dublin treaty namely send back people who were registered in italy to the place where they were registered but there is a basic principle. that is that no possibility to send people back at the border
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that is. they these tricky in this situation and. i think that we have to. there needs to be a multilateral response migration affects different countries so it cannot be dealt with unilaterally and bilaterally but i think we have to also go back probably and look at the impact of the economic crisis on europe many years ago prior to that there were several labor migrations keane's bilateral schemes within that between the countries and those have old stopped and i think that what has failed also in this time is is the focus on integration and we have to rethink integration because that fundamental integration should look at vulnerable people in the community beyond migrants and beyond refugees many were impacted by the economic crisis and then so it's easy for them to see the refugees coming in the migrants
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coming with special needs and special attention and they say what is our needs what happened to us i think that integration no no solution of strengthening the borders controlling migration will be effective if we don't include integration policies part work and progression policies and labor migration schemes because most of the people who are coming are economic migrants plus there is a group of migrants that are vulnerable that are victims of trafficking and a company minus for whom there is no system for the moment to come into europe so this is also the reason why the processing needs to be done in europe to grant those people protection because they are have the right to protection in the european countries. a given if i look at the current solutions being proposed for an overall approach to a multilateral approach they include strengthening the outer boundaries of europe
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that seems to be one of the few things that most people can agree on most european union leaders and there's also talk of essentially outsourcing the problem by creating migrant processing centers. in other countries like northern africa like for example libya one of the transit countries that many refugees pass through does that sound to you like a workable way to keep for example syrian refugees from trying to get to europe shores. i mean first you have to you have to have the game and of those countries in north africa to host those detention or those transfer centers and if you get the agreement of those countries which now is not known and libya from i understood as detected you still have to convince or use the laugh to look at if those people are going to go to those centers and say that an unknown conditions i mean we've seen what's happened in libya we were all shocked when the pictures of africans
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being sold the slaves. you know in libya and by the way it's still happening to now because the world has forgotten it seems nothing has been done. so. the syrians or other refugees from other parts of africa are going to go to those centers and wait there to be met by european official only and officials to be seen and then stay there for months in order to see if they're going to be accepted into europe or not or they're going to risk crossing the mediterranean and getting into europe and you know getting their case heard here i don't know if it's going to work my the wonders of the solutions but i think the europeans are looking at this also in their own way they're not looking at tackling the problems and that origen the. you know by talking about strengthening the borders i mean stressing the borders meaning you need to solve the problems or help people stay in their country or talk to the smugglers or i don't know do something else then those immediate
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solutions that seem to would do little to stop immigrants coming into he said at the outset of your remarks that of course the countries would have to agree in fact we have a quote from the northern african libyan deputy prime minister who is definitely not enthusiastic about the idea of migrant processing centers let's listen to caribbean. for we agree with the europeans on many points related to the illegal immigration. but we categorically reject the concept of migrant centers in libya. that's against libyan long. such camps are not allowed under libyan laws and regulations for what you know what i. want to congratulate you called in your opening statement for a long term she may in the solution to the problem migrant processing centers offshore tighter external boundaries is that the solution what would that represent
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in terms of the likelihood of getting this problem of getting a a true solution to this challenge. for us the solution is something that is going back to the principle that founded the european union sharing of responsibilities and identifying and mechanisms that brings together around the table and operationally all the countries around the mediterranean plus the european union countries and. identify solution for illegal migration schemes for migrants because that will continue europe needs migrant workers and. the better your opening statement referred to a possible implosion of the e.u. over this dispute but the e.u. is long but adept at finding patchwork compromises that sort of kick the problem down the road would you expect that to happen here as well and if so what does that mean for the values of the european union. i mean this is actually is
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a tough question to actually say we are true to our values because there is indeed forseeable future the number of people want to come to europe will far exceed the number of people that european citizens are wanting and we need to find some sort of. common sense so you main way of dealing with this gap and that will be easy to to was sticking with all values doing ok define in one sense if you were to fortress europe with that truly does deter migrants. i don't think some people are always looking for the better life and they think you can afford to. thank you very much thanks to all of you for joining and see you soon.
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if you. just think. with the senses. recognize. and experience the inexpressible. the cultural magazine. and arts twenty one on g w. z w come july from above and let's go right to our correspondent news in central istanbul and you have our political correspondent you're in the studio more on those stories in the system minute but first this news just gets all about perspective closer d.w. news good. news i was. just not seeing the unsub. sounds so cold. can sound good is kind of
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place. to play. the c.w. news live from berlin it took more than fourteen hours of talks through the night but e.u. leaders say they have reached a deal on migration the french president manuel mccall is hailing the agreement as a victory for european cooperation but will it be enough to diffuse on the americans crisis at home and what will it mean for the migrants. also coming up in the world cup soccer belgium england to take the top spot in the seat open to all the highlights. plus the specter of a full blown trade war what ways.


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