tv Washington Journal Howard Markel CSPAN April 19, 2021 1:30pm-2:00pm EDT
it's easy to quickly find the latest briefings and the biden administration's response. use the interactive gallery of maps for the u.s. and worldwide. go to c-span doish/coronavirus. -- kroig.org -- c-span.org/vfb. >> the house is coming in at 2:00. votes expected at 6:30. you can expect live coverage of the house here on c-span. host: every monday at this hour we take a closer look at covid-19, where we are in the pandemic, more than a year after the first cases were here in the united states. well over a year since it came from wuhan, china. joining us from ann arbor, michigan is dr. howard markel, the director for the history of medicine at the university of michigan. thank you for being with us. dr. markel: hi, i am fondly here. host: thank you for joining us.
tell us about your center. dr. markel: i direct the center for the history of medicine at the university of michigan. we have a collection of physicians, phd's in the history of medicine, and other scholars who try to understand how the profession of medicine and health care and disease has unfolded over the last many thousands of years. one of the great joys of doing that is to use those lessons to apply to the present. we've been doing that through the university of michigan, i think this is my 30th year at the university of michigan. i've been here a while doing that. host: it includes archival material including some posters like this one. it reads "parents of earth, are your children fully immunized?" where did this come from?
dr. markel: i'm not seeing that poster right now so i can't look at it. there is a whole series of posters that go back from the early 20th century well into thewpa -- into the wpa project, so without looking at the poster it's hard to tell the exact era. this is been going on for about 100 years. host: what is a vaccine passport? what is its history? dr. markel: that's a funny phrase that has caught the media's attention and the public at large, a new term similar to vaccine hesitancy. we have always had vaccine passports, they may not have been called vaccine passports, but as a very young person in baltimore in the 1980's i would always sign a little passport or piece of paper, it was made out
of cardboard or other sturdy construction, it would date each of my immunizations, and that child would have to present, or the mother of the child would have to present that passport to start school. this isn't that long ago. with the great movement of vaccine hesitancy, vaccine -- philosophical differences, religious differences, and if you would like to opt out of vaccines a lot of state laws in the past have been recalibrated and religious purposes may be one reason but philosophical differences is not and that is coming up today. for someone who studies infectious disease for more than half of my life and the history of infectious diseases the same time, i am just baffled by this
processed about a piece of paper that says you had a vaccine. that is listed somewhere anyway. you are getting your cd -- your cd through the cdc and the hospital undertaking your name. that information is there and this makes the information so much more readily available going forward when you want to travel somewhere or what have you. the type of documents that have been around for a hundred years and maybe 150 or more we knew about infectious diseases you had to have a passport that said you weren't traveling directly from the port that was having an epidemic. host: there is pushback from a number of lawmakers including republican congressman matt rosendale who represents montana and he said the following quote, proposed vaccine passport systems are of gross violation of the rights of every american and make their own personal health care choices.
they are a mandate that force individuals to either be vaccinated against their wishes or be denied access to the most basic functions of our society." the issue came up at a recent white house press briefing. >> -- given to a federally organized vaccine passport of some time. does the president see that as some kind of pool that can be -- tool that can be used or does -- press sec. psaki: the government is not now nor will we be supporting a system that requires americans to carry a credential. there will be federal back ssent -- there'll be no federal vaccination database or no one will be required to have a vaccination potential. tools are being considered by the private and nonprofit central -- americans rights and privacy should be protected so that these systems are not used
against people unfairly. there is a movement in the private sector to identify ways that they can return to events where there are large swaths of people safely in soccer stadiums or theaters, and that's something, that's where the idea originated and they expect that's where it will be concluded. we will be providing some guidance which will look like an faq, frequently act -- frequently asked question that provides important answers to questions americans have around concerns about privacy, security or discrimination. i don't have an exact date. >> based on what you hear from lawmakers in the white house, where is this idea? dr. markel: with all due respect to the congressman from montana i think he has to learn a great deal about public health history and public health law at the state and federal levels. there have been mandates for vaccines for at least 100 years.
there's even supreme court cases , the most famous is jace s jacobson versus -- jacobson verse massachusetts, that mandated for jacobson to take a smallpox vaccine even though he did not want to because he was endangering the lives of others. mr. congressman, and i would say this to the press secretary because she has an obligation to know a little more than this than the questioner. mr. congressman, you are wrong. you are encouraging people not to get vaccinated, we are not getting out of this terrible pandemic until we do so. shame on you. learn more about science, learn more about medicine before you start taking the banner of my personal privacy. do you think your employer is going to let you work if you are not vaccinated? do you think your school is going to let you go back to school if you don't get vaccinated? so whether the federal
government does or a company or some other thing does it there is going to be some type of evidence that you have been vaccinated. if you can't display that that is your choice. choices have consequences. i would be delighted to speak with the press secretary and the congressman from montana to explain not only why they are wrong but how we can better protect the health of our country, it's as simple as that. host: ducting to how -- talking to dr. howard markel, the director of the history of medicine at the university of michigan. our phone lines are open. (202) 748-8000 if you live in the eastern or central time zones. for those of you out west, (202) 748-8001. another part of this debate, seeing this over the weekend in oregon, considering a permanent mask rule. here are details courtesy of the associated press.
oregon is poised to go in -- a top health official is considering indefinitely extending rules requiring masks and social distancing in all businesses in the state of oregon. the proposal would keep the rule in place until they are no longer necessary to address the effects of the pandemic in the work place. where has that argument been historically echo dr. markel: -- been historically echo -- been historically? dr. markel: as a physician in the 21st-century i find it hard that i have to go on c-span and verify that it's right. of course it's right. there is a terrible pandemic going around getting millions of people sick and killing people. this whole red versus blue, you are taking my rights versus your
rights, my privacy versus your whatever. this is all nonsense. this has nothing to do with public health or fighting a pandemic. this has to do with one politician trying to fight another politician over issues that are really damaging to the health of this nation. and so i plead with our lawmakers and i plead with our president and our international health services. we must get a handle. it's already been over a year. it's not going away suddenly. we're all in this together, what's the big deal? one second. i'm getting out of my drawer if i can find it my passport. my real passport. here's my real passport. i opened up and i make sure that my immunization card is right in there. that's my passport isn't it?
we all have these pieces of paper if we've gotten vaccinated. we use them to get into somewhere. this doesn't make sense. host: courtesy of johns hopkins university that has been keeping track of covid-19 since the beginning. more than 100 41 million cases worldwide. a global death toll has exceeded 3 million in 192 countries and regions around the world. the issue of rights came up with dr. anthony found she. he testified before a house committee and had this -- did the exchange with ohio converse -- ohio congressman jim jordan. dr. fauci: this will end when we get the level low, the level is high that weathers a major -- >> over the last year americans first amendment rights have been attacked. your right to go to church, you're right to go to assemble, freedoms have all been assaulted. for a year now americans haven't been able to go to church.
even today when they go to church they are limited and the size of worshipers that can meet your right to assemble. oh my goodness. we had a curfew last fall in ohio. in vermont when you are in your home you didn't have to wear a mask dr. fauci because you weren't allowed to have people over to your house. dr. fauci: congressman jordan -- >> for a year american citizens haven't been able to come to their capital to petition their government, to talk to their representatives, and freedom of the press, these very pictures that representative scully showed you, the press isn't allowed in those facilities. the biden administration will allow the press in there. and certainly freedom of speech. the governor of the third largest state meets with physicians and that nvidia is censored because -- that video is censored because they dared
to disagree with dr. fauci. when do americans get their first amendment liberties back? dr. fauci: i don't think anything was censored because they felt they couldn't disagree with me. you are making this a personal thing. you are. that is exactly what you're doing. host: that was front and center last week on a lot of attention. your reaction? dr. markel: good for dr. fauci. i don't see why a congressman who the right to assault, intimidate, and denigrate literally the world's expert in infectious diseases. we are blessed to have anthony found she as the law -- anthony found she as our longtime head of the institute of allergies and infectious diseases.
what is he talking about that we are protecting people from? first of all, there is no restriction of freedom of press, the newspaper. and churches, synagogues, mosques have been holding their services by zoom, which is a wonderful way to both continue your rights to practice your religion as you see fit, but also not to harm yourself or harm others. it's an incredible way to avoid that exact charge and it's exactly what rabbis including my own and priests and ministers and so forth have been doing during this crisis. to say that you have to do certain things during a deadly pandemic and get offended by that suggests a me that you are not really thinking this through.
i have real problems after a year of some months and explaining this to people and being involved with many other people who have been working 24/7 on this to be called, for anthony fauci to be called for making something up is ludicrous. anyone who has ever known him would not say that and with all due respect representative jordan you have met him before and this is political grandstanding. this doesn't govern, this doesn't legislate, this is just grandstanding and i will say what i said before, shame on you. we have a pandemic to take care of, wonderful vaccine to take care of it. we have the money to immunize our people and we should do it. host: a tweet from donald trump, jr. on the issue of vaccine passports. dr. markel: donald trump, jr., i'm really on board now. [laughter] host: he writes the following " corporate america is pushing
freedom killing vaccine passports, censoring conservatives on social media, and trying to stop common sense voter id laws. these were corporations are un-american to their core. time for republicans to finally stand up to them!" israel issuing passport to allow for vaccinated citizens to allow for less restriction internal movement and unrestricted access to gyms and theaters. companies like china and bahrain have begun issuing digital passports to their vaccinated citizens. in several countries proof of covid-19 vaccines allows travelers to avoid travel restrictions like testing and quarantine. based on that what have we learned in the past when we have had previous pandemics and the idea of passports. dr. markel: first of all you have to understand that each passport is for a different
pandemic or more globally like i explained with the childhood school passports. there are also literal passports where you had to show that you are vaccinated when going to a certain country. that still exists depending on where you are traveling. i have very little respect for donald trump, jr.. i don't see how this is freedom killing. it is freedom restoring. once you are vaccinated you are immune to covid and you can do things. and you get permission to do things by public health doctors who are trying to end this as opposed to shooting tigers in africa. we have to listen to the experts, and the extraneous noise that has only been amplified by social media and the internet has made this cacophony of noises whether it is anti-vaccine, anti-covid, anti-china, anti-whatever else.
there is a lot of scapegoating, a lot of arguing, but not enough logical, scientific reason that tells us, we have a terrible infectious disease that is very easily transmitted, and now we have many vaccines that work. host: talking with dr. howard markel, professor and the director of the history of medicine at the university of michigan. tony is joining us from alabama. caller: good morning. i've worked my way up from being really poor to successful. i have a question, something that doesn't click. we have tons of doctors like yourself on tv telling us this vaccine, everyone should take it. there was no flu cases this year, people are dying from this thing. one thing i haven't seen that would put my mind at ease that i
haven't seen anywhere because we are all -- doctors debate. there has not been one debate on tv from professionals from both sides, just one side only on every single station, scare tactics to say all these people are dying even though the cdc says 6% die from covid. i know people that knew someone that died. i called to give my condolences and they say based didn't die from covid, they were sitting in a wheelchair and barely function. as soon as they died they listed it as covid. since when do doctors not write papers and debate this thing from both sides in front of the country so they have some ease? you hear all these rumors on the net and all the social sites. i try to do my homework and look at all different types of sites. i have talked to doctors
personally and not one doctor has said get the shot. they all said they would not get the shot. dr. markel: i think you're phony and that's really surprising. that's really surprising. all i can do is give you my medical advice. you want to look at the data, it's not going to be on the tv. there are cases of anti-and pro-vaccine people, they will be in the public health literature. do you have access to a public health library room a university? host: the caller has hung up. dr. markel: the point is that everyone now can get access to these medical journals. please don't hang up on me because you're mad at me and telling me i'm an answer you don't like. that is restricting my ability to talk to you. the point is it is a debate, it is being talked about, it's very complicated. i've been studying it for years and it's difficult. it might not be difficult for you but the data is out there
and i can tell you you have no reason -- i have no reason to go on c-span unless i have a public health mission, to make sure that everyone in america and around the world gets this safe vaccine. are there risks to it? they are infinitesimal, tiny compared to the risk of you getting covid, especially if you are 62. the choice is yours, that's the freedom passport, if you don't want to get the shot, you will have to stay inside and your house, that's your choice. host: from coffee springs, alabama, patrick, you are next. caller: [indiscernible] that's pretty funny man this early in the morning. [laughter] you think you're going to keep americans in their house because they didn't vaccinate. dr. markel: once americans are
vaccinated -- caller: what's wrong with the hydroxychloroquine right now? dr. markel: are you really going to ask me that? that's been disproved. that's a non-defensible -- it's a non-defensible non-treatable disease. caller: you are not preventing death. dr. markel: if you get covid you are free to take that completely useless and potentially damaging drug. let's not come up with fake treatments that are even more dangerous. at the moment by taking hydroxychloroquine it's more dangerous than a vaccine. let's not keep coming up with fictions and anti-this and anti-that and use our common sense. there is a terrible pandemic. for 6% of all people to die of a pandemic disease is quite high. 1918 influenza was about 3%. please don't go on about
statistics and less you know what they mean. we are in the midst of a serious pandemic, the way it will go away is we all get vaccinated. sorry i don't have an answer you like, but that's the answer . host: next from washington. caller: good morning, dr. markel, i really like you. dr. markel: [laughter] i needed that, thank you. caller: you brought giggles to me today. anyway, i need a doctor if you happen to move my way. dr. markel: i'm in ann arbor. caller: [laughter] dr. markel: everyone needs a pediatrician these days because we are all acting like children. caller: we all need more people like you. come on people, let's be a little smarter, let's not.
they don't realize for someone like myself who has an autoimmune disease. with addison's disease i'm a little afraid to take the immunization and i'm not sure what would be the best one to take for me. and also with my court is all i take steroids as well -- cortiso l i take steroids as well to replace the aldosterone. we have been hearing a lot in addison's that we will have a shortage on steroids. dr. markel: i hope there's not a shortage of steroids. the drug companies that make those drugs were 24/7. . the autoimmune function -- the autoimmune issue is a serious one and you need to, do you see a doctor for your addison's, an
endocrinologist or autoimmune specialist? ma'am? host: she has hung up, i apologize. dr. markel: my point is these are very important questions and people with specific diseases autoimmune or others need to have a frank and open discussion with their doctor about whether or not they should take it. on the cdc website, which is updated every day, that goes into some of the anti-things, oh you change your mind, no we learned more. as we learn more we tell you. it's updated every day and will tell you a great deal about who is ready for vaccine or safer vaccines or who is not there yet there is no substitute especially if you have other serious medical issues like addison's disease that you have this discussion with your doctor and find out the answer, good luck to you. host: another half hour remaining with dr. howard
markel. tracy is joining us from sugarland, texas. dr. markel: i've actually heard of sugarland. caller: i have three things i want to say. number one, the reason some people are hesitant to take the vaccine is because remember the democrats and our vice president pushed the idea that they weren't going to be effective and you shouldn't take them because donald trump had something to do with it. that's one people people might want to be not taking it. i take offense to the way you talk about republicans. because i'm a republican. dr. markel: i didn't speak about republicans ma'am i spoke about two individuals. they are acting like fools. i will say this on area. the stuff they are saying is not only anti-science and
anti-health. they are actually harming people by spreading nonsense. it is made by pfizer. they don't care who is president as long as it makes money. big pharma but never do that, but they do. stop making up these complicit, per crazy plots that people are trying to kill other people with the disease. epidemics and pandemics have been happening since humans have been on the planet. there are people in our government, and i'm not saying one side or another and there on both sides, but there are people in our government who are poorly trained in public health epidemics and medicine, they know next to nothing about it. they are trained by their 20-year-old aides, they are talk and are angry and have an ax to grind like representative jordan did to dr. fauci, and i don't know what circumstance he would
find that polite questioning, that was rude and unacceptable when they do stuff like that they harm the public health. you want to blame the whole republican? have at it. the point is, get the vaccine or you risk getting covid. and potentially dying. that is your choice. if you take this one, these people don't necessarily want to deal with you because they don't want to get sick. that is not only eminently fair, the american jurisprudence system has back this up then again. bring the covid shot to the supreme court and i'm confident that we will get a good hearing on it. we don't have time for that right now. what we need to do is roll up our sleeves and get our shot. it's that simple. get this -- if the shot was so damaging why isn't it killing people? it's not. we are following it closely, this is an eminently safe vaccine and its a hell of a lot safer than not being vaccinated. host: let me turn to your state,
michigan getting a lot of attention with its uptake in cases of covid-19, it was a topic on meet the press and chuck todd with this line of questioning took gretchen whitmer -- on governor question -- >> this variant is what is growing so quickly in michigan. we have the second month deaths after florida at the last data i saw. michigan and florida are not next to each other, but this is the time of of year that snowbirds come home from florida where people are going on spring break and all of these things can contribute to spread and that's why we are imploring people to take this seriously and mask up and get tested if you have been around someone who has tested positive stay home. if you get covid >> we'll have to leave this portion of "washington journal" here as the u.s. house is about to gavel in. this is part of our long-term