tv John O Neill and Sarah Wynne The Dancer and the Devil CSPAN September 24, 2022 8:01am-9:04am EDT
well, good afternoon, everyone. my name is chuck deaver. i'm a vice president. the texas public policy foundation. and we're delighted to have you here with us for a fascinating discuss lesson about the use of poisons in national policy. this is something that as a now retired u.s. army intelligence officer i was certainly aware, but until i read this book, i had no idea scale that these poisons were deployed by the former soviet union and today's successor state the russian federation as as nations like the people's republic of china and north korea. and so it's great honor to have
today's presentation with the authors of the the dancer in the double stalin pavlova and the road to the great pandemic. so the book covers about 100 years of history in the use of both chemical poisons and bioweapons in a way that's, pretty sobering when you're done with the book and you realize just the magnitude of what's been done in the past. so if i may, i'd like to introduce the authors we have with us, john and sarah, when john is the coauthor with sarah of the book that we're going to be discussing this afternoon? he graduated from the united states naval academy in 1967. he in vietnam on board swift boat. so he was in what was then called the brown water navy, right. going up to the the the the rivers, the the deltas of the mekong right and probably mostly
in south the southern part of south vietnam. he was decorated, of course, for his service there. he then went to university of texas law school finished there's the top graduate. he then had a clerkship. chief justice william rehnquist at the supreme court and has a a really funny story about that that i urge our our folks from our legal department to stick around after the presentation and maybe ask about the the story that is connected with chief justice rehnquist. that's pretty, pretty humorous. after practicing as a litigator with international law firm. actually, i think that's you so i skipped a a bullet point there. how how terrible so back to john. you had several hundred cases you tried including representation. this is interesting and kind of ironic. you represented the people's
republic of china at one point successfully, but then realized perhaps what they were all about and decided not to do it ever again. sarah win is the coauthor with john neal, of course, of the book we're talking about. you also from the university of texas with both a law degree and an undergraduate business degree with high honors. and after practicing as a litigator with an international law firm, you to take up a second career as an artist. what kind of art? mainly acrylic art. i sell in some galleries in the southeast. all right. interesting. and you live houston with your husband and two children. you also live in houston, don't you? i do. i do, indeed, yeah all right. so it was a nice drive out here. i think i'm being reminded to use the michael. i'm sorry i doing so let ask the two of you why this book. i mean, this is a that's pretty gruesome. there's not at least there hasn't been in the past a lot of of documentary evidence, at least not until the fall of the soviet union. in that brief period of time when the soviet archives are
open to the public. so this book and why now? what what's you into writing this book really happened is i began with zero with britain and other that are bestsellers but i began by i really remembered all the people i saw slaughtered in vietnam and in hong kong and hong kong harbor the great cultural revolution. and i thought, well, these people shouldn't be forgotten. and so i began just sort of looking at stories. if you talk about marxist slaughter in the 20th century, you can take 60 million stories. these just happened to be few. i stumbled upon the of anna pavlova in i learned that annabel bobo kept telling annabel pavlova was the world's greatest dancer and probably the greatest international figure of her time in the 1920s and early 1930s, when annabel blow died, she kept on telling people i was poisoned i was poisoned. the food in paris.
she said it over and over again immediately upon climbing into a train it remained a mystery for many years why she the academy award winner of 1932 for best picture is called the grand hotel. and it's about the mysterious of a russian ballerina, loosely based on anna pavlova. so it was one of history's great mysteries. we stumbled upon all of stuff showing the operation of the russian poisoned meringue called gang operating in paris and using anthrax to poison large number of people. it isn't. they were embarrassed by it. they were proud of it. very proud of it. they were all executed by stalin in the end. so once we got pavlova and pavlova was sort of the example of what was happening, she became kind of the heart of the book. why? well, first, pavlova was poisoned. she was killed with and so she leads directly into the use marx
and states of a huge bioweapons facility is a poisons and so on continued long past anna peploe was time to the present. second, she was the embodiment of war. in 1928, really 1925, the soviet union embarked upon suppressing all thoughts, ideas and so on marx and engels had said that communism needs to control means of production. the bank the oil company and so on stalin went way beyond that. he said marxism the government needs to control the mind of man. it needs to control the actual language that he uses, needs, eliminate. and stalin said the word god, the word god itself has to be eliminated by 1935. and so embarked upon a tremendous kill of not only political opponents, but of
cultural opponents, not in russia, but in western europe. in russia. the book accounts for some of the people who produced the wrong. they produced russian ballets in 1924, 25 or they they wrote a accounts of stalin that he didn't find favorable or even that they're just put on music that he didn't like and to kill them he had to do it secretly and where he did it secretly was through bioweapons, like anthrax. and poisons of various kinds that are outlined in the book. anna pavlova, the great cultural symbol of russia to the entire world she danced, the the nutcracker swan lake and of those there's always a nobleman. there's a picture of christmas happy. that was a cultural to stalin that he couldn't it couldn't allow it to exist. and that's why he used the russia gang in paris who were
outlined in the book to try to kill her. once we got to and the organization of what was called lab one by stalin it led us into the soviet actual soviet bioweapons production as late as the 1970s, eighties, nineties and now begun again under putin. outline in other books by defectors. kenneth albert. from there learned that there were huge pile by war labs set up not only in the soviet union but in china. and so that took another year or two to do the research on china. and that's where the book came about and how the in general came about. so one of the things that struck me, i suppose, makes sense after the fact is the extent which stalin went to cover these up. so you go through the creation of of lab one and then remarkably all of the
executioners save, just a very small number of them were themselves executed. and this included even the scientists and the doctors who created a lot of these novel poisons was that something that i mean were you just when you came across the that that was what occurred we came across killing after killing my own here we came across killing after killing. he wanted to cover his tracks exclusively. he did so with various poisons. he would say, you know, want to be known for having killed this person, to put fear into people. and then other times he would do secretly through what we call litter noy litter and poisonings. and for instance, check if you had respiratory issues, then check would come down with pneumonia. and that's too bad that he had respiratory issues and it was actually anthrax. but no one would question that he'd been poisoned. or, for instance, if you had a heart, then you'd be given some some other virus, a bacteria
that would kill you that way. remember the old story in treasure island, where the pirate takes the treasure and buries that. then they kill all the guys that buried it that was stolen. the yangtze again was the poison mechanism he used in the 1930. he some the back to moscow in 1938 and killed every single one of them their bodies lie somewhere in a mass grave in russia with one exception that china whose outlined in the in the book he did the very same thing with the romanoff killers the people who actually killed the romanoffs in 1918, 19 eight, in the slaughter of the little romanoff girls, the family, they were all executed. 1921, 1922, in a monastery, a former monastery located near moscow. it happened and over again in the soviet period, even at the high levels, lenin was killed by stalin. beria killed stalin and was then. so let's talk about the timing of that. you say you just casually say
the, you know, these two monsters, right lenin was killed by stalin. what was lenin going to do day after he killed lenin had been shot and. so he was ill. he made the term you tend to get ill after your shot, understand what happened. sometimes. kaplan was the name of the woman who him who was beaten up and then very quickly. so we never know how lenin got shot. but he got shot and he had to recover from that. he made a terrible mistake. his mistake was getting stalin, who had a nickname for that's in the book as his secretary. so stalin controlled all access to lenin and he used that build power. well, finally lenin realized what was happening. so lenin composed what was called his last testament, and he gave his last testament to his wife, the only other person with access to him besides stalin. stalin learned of the last
testament, and lenin's plan was to present it to a soviet party. congress in 1924, he went and then a day or two later, the day before he was supposed to present it, the last testament denounced stalin and called for stalin to be removed the day before it presented lenin suddenly inexplicably died. lenin had other physical problems, but pathology studies at the university of maryland and conferences concluded that lenin could not possibly have died of what? what it was claimed. he died. and so lenin's serendipitous death among a whole host of others. there's a death that occurred right before he was going to denounce stalin. so just very strong evidence stalin killed lenin. and you even talk about in the book about how lenin's brain was preserved in a jar, and even to this, the russian authorities let no one do any sort of analysis it to to find poisons that might still be there in the
in the tissue and the although she used to go to red square, which i did at least a couple of times, and in the there's a tomb of lenin. stalin used to be there and then they when he fell in disfavor, they took him out on night and buried him and there are actors, one guy playing stalin, another guy playing lenin and so on. i don't know if they're there anymore. doubt it. in the putin period. and i the guy i mean, the guy. did you kill lenin? and he just sort of smiled and i asked the lenin guy, did were you killed by stalin? and you just sort of nodded. yes and so on. so the soviet people sort of understand what happened. so tell me about this guy they nicknamed the poison dwarf thing that is interesting to me about this guy, the photograph of him with with stalin has become kind of a modern internet meme about about kind of the george orwell.
style 1984 memory holding that happens today when people get canceled right. everyone's seen the picture. you've got stalin and a couple other people. next to this canal with this small guy in a in a uniform. and then there's the same exact where the the guy has been airbrushed out and that's nikolai half and i never knew the connection between what he did for stalin, the fact that that got him executed. well, yes. of whom worked in laboratory one. and he did such a fine job, he was put in charge of the entire kgb laboratory. one was the secret laboratory that stalin used to develop poisons and later bioweapons. it expanded into a huge bioweapons facility, beginning at a place called saratov off, and stalin himself, as the book outlines, almost died in an inadvertent perhaps unfortunately, the leak that occurred in 1939 years off was
called the poison because he was so genuinely, even people like bukhara and stalin's friends couldn't believe they were around a person. so short in stature. he loved watching, poisoning people. he loved beating people to death. he loved human misery and so on. he's the one that conducted the the purge trials of 1937 and 1938 in russia, where most of the old bolsheviks were actually executed. but kahn and the rest of them, and at stalin's birthday party, he pretended he was bukar and others, imitating their death in agony. he was a supremely evil man, of course. he himself, in the end, destroyed and executed stalin in 1939 in order to conceal all the poisonings that he had been involved. so less people. this is all ancient history and this is all, you know, stalin consolidating power, acting on his paranoia and is some
apologists would say, although i i guess today putin's been working very hard rehabilitate stalin. tell about some of the latter cold war period so so what ends up happening with laboratory one is it ends up getting replicated the soviet union begins to become even sophisticated in its use of bioweapons they start to realize the possibilities of mass casualties instead of just killing one or two people. so there's some a few interesting things that happened in the 1970s. can you tell us about some these lab leaks that happened and what that what was it the soviet union was into? there were three huge lab leaks of bio in the night that we were aware of in the 1970s, the first was that in 1972, it killed and these are all disclosed what happened is that number two guy in the soviet program, his name was kenneth. all back and he wrote a book called biohazard which you can obtain and.
the first of these was at kiev, where anthrax, anthrax, a set of bacterial spores and introduced into a human lung. they mimic pneumonia and other the lungs fill with water. they were incurable until the development of, you know, various types of treatments in any event, there was a leak of anthrax out of the out of the kiev facility. it actually went into the sanitary shore system and might mutated into a form of anthrax that. the soviets, no fools, then turned to turn to and as their primary primary form of anthrax. i think it was called anthrax. 638 but it's in the book. in 1977 in china and western a flu up here and, the flu went all over the world and. it was called the russian flu. even it had appeared in china
and scientists looked at it and you can look it up on wikipedia as russian flu. and when they looked at it, it was inexplicable because was exactly the same flu that had in 1955 in an outbreak, then disappeared from the whole world. and so they said this flu as matter of fact, if you were alive in 55, you never got the 77 flu because you were from it. so they said someone has preserved this feel flu in a in a laboratory and it has escaped chinese and we have no idea what you're talking about. the russians said, no, we're not us. much later, scientists all over the world said chemically identical to the 1955 flu flus migrate. it mutate. it's like john o'neill going to law school or years ago. appearing today just can't happen. so somebody to preserve this in a laboratory and what happened is on in 1994 the head of the
chinese virology program outlined the book disclosed for the first time that the chinese had had preserved the 55 flu in the laboratory that leaked that they were conducting vaccine trial trials to try and develop it as an effective bio weapon and that they didn't know what they and that's how it got out. and that's 700,000 people died in the world. in 1979. exactly the same thing happened in the soviet union at a burg. it was called the the the bioweapons chernobyl in the bioweapons chernobyl. you go you can read the journal of the people that worked on it. they talked about having to kill stray dogs and how silly that was because all knew it was anthrax and killed like 11 or 1200 people. we'll never know how many because the soviet union at that time claimed it was just dead meat that someone had had
bought. and then they tried the butchers. amazingly those were three of the elites by complaining did on bad meat and rogue illegal butchers that seems eerily familiar to a story that that two cities a couple of years ago it was the market story it was exactly wet market story about 40 years earlier and not particularly innovative but you read the actual accounts of the from in the in the journals that middlebury college has actually done. you can read the account of peter police, who's the virologist who studied and talk directly to the chinese doctors, admitted that it was they were developing a bioweapon, developing vaccine to combat a bug that existed a virus that existed only in their own labs served. let's continue in the late seventies, there was a fascinating incident that happened, i believe, in london. and it just outlines that
sometimes a regime aims to make a public statement by just shooting someone in the open. many times, though, a person just inexplicably gets sick, dies. tell tell me about. georgy markov and, the umbrella. what was that all about? well, john can also speak to this, but sometimes would in that instance was poison on the end of an umbrella that he was poisoned with. but sometimes they were shot in the open sometimes. it was very secretive. so they had number of ways in which they could administer these poisons. putin as she has an operation outlined in the book, it's called sarah what's where the unit unit to 9155 is their current operation 29155 began killing people by 19 but 12 and four in the ukraine. yushchenko, the president of the ukraine, was poisoned with dioxin. you can see the pictures of him. you've probably them, the
picture of the horrible looking guy, the real young guy. and then in 2 seconds, he's terrible looking. in 2006, they poisoned a guy in london. he was poisoned with. now an abattoir which is nerve poison that the soviet army uses and. on his deathbed, he said the world will always know now that putin is a poisoner. and they asked putin, did you poison him? and putin said, no, lazarus, he won't be coming back. there's litvinenko drank a similar in thousand, ten, 11 and so on. most recently at the way the group finally got caught is in england. they poisoned a family called the. in 2018, idiotically they allowed themselves to be caught on video cameras and a blogger was able to take the pictures of them and identify who they were.
these idiots were posting on facebook unbelievably, and so the entire got identified. the british police working backward identified, 14 different people, 14 different people that had murdered in england alone, most recently, eight different families have all died in the soviet union and in spain, the most recent, a family called the percent chance they're all involved. there were all families involved with the soviet oil and gas. why kill them? we won't know. but the typical is the process of family here is that family husband, little girl. supposedly the husband chops up, the wife and the little girl, a hatchet. and then hangs himself. he's found. one of them trying to do that. and if you believe that, you'll believe anything. of course, this is a little
annoying murder as they explain at the function of a little known murder is to stage a suicide that looks like a suicide or or a natural that people in russia at know isn't a natural death and isn't a staged suicide. and so the murder of the prince and shows and the other different families all murdered in similar fashion says to everybody in russia locally, if you oppose putin, you're not only going to die yourself, but your whole family is going to die, your wife's going to die, and your little kids are going to die. so let's address it. critique right. you'll have some people who will say, well, you know, the cia has done these sorts of before. right. how are we any better than the old soviet union or the people's republic of china? so what would you say to people who would bring up, for example, the cia's several supposedly attempts to poison fidel castro,
for example? what's the difference between the sort of activity that you outline in your book and that sort of thing? well, the first difference is that in 1970, a us law was changed to outlaw any bio weapons, to outlaw any poisons. and in 1972, we a treaty that we would never do it. and there's no evidence that we've ever done it since that even before time our activities were small and minuscule. castro maybe a couple of other people we killed allende in a likely killed allende or were behind his death on the gold program in south vietnam. but we weren't killing hundreds of people we weren't developing bioweapons kill hundreds of thousands of people so there was a tremendous difference degree from the very beginning when we entered the bioweapons treaty in 1972, we stopped absolutely stopped any efforts of any kind.
but albert discloses in his book, that was not a stop for the soviet union, it was a starting point. and by the mid 1970s, they were spending more money on bioweapons than they were spending on nuclear weapons. i think, you know, there's also difference as well, which we discussed a few minutes prior to two going live, which is that you talk about the scale. but i remember, john, you had also said, you know, if we had the ability to poison hitler. of course, would have done it. right. so there is a there's a difference in intent and you mentioned it in so far as the targeting but when you look at, for example stalin going after a ballerina because the sort of cultural that she was represent entered a threat to the legitimacy of his and his regime. and so why you then see people like that and then their extended all being killed as well. i mean that's that seems to be just a completely different sort activity. well, there is a huge
difference. you know if you study the of marxism you that what happens is folks take on a very idealistic basis the economy collapses in general collapses and people who are voting for freedom find themselves in slavery and that's tragic and then it ultimately collapses into usually a single ruler it's mao zedong or or joseph stalin or the putin and russia or china and china. and so the idea of a collective rule with great human freedom starts like that. but that's not how it ends. and is capable. it is not capable of free debate because it fails so often and. that's why controlling the mind of man was so important to stalin. and now to chile and china. to putin. in russia. that's why she and china's up 11 different actresses have all disappeared in china.
that's there is a massive disappearance. anybody that doesn't know or seems to be incorrect on the right political line. it does beg the question, why would stalin to kill a ballerina who seems harmless but she traveled over 400,000 miles in the days before air travel with her dance, and she represented that stalin couldn't stand. it was an independent, free thought. it was very much he continued. the doctrine of cultural hegemony that was first advanced by gramsci. but john mentioned earlier to control you have to control their mind, their thoughts, the music, everything and. she was a direct threat to that she actually went they her mother from russia to try and get her to come back she wouldn't back they center an invitation to come back she wouldn't come back. they declared. 1927 that she was an enemy of the soviet people. and that didn't seem to her very much. in 1929, they her the trust she
had set up for little kids and for ballerinas in moscow and gave it to the red army on the ground was now an enemy of the soviet people. stalin sent his a woman who was likely his mistress named colin. time around europe to contact the norwegians and other governments to and stop them from allowing her to in their countries. so he went to great effort. 1930 130 her friends all tried to get her to come to hollywood she had many offers to make great movies in hollywood. they were afraid for her and she was afraid for herself. she said she felt the sword of damocles coming down on her head and she went instead. she scheduled a tour, was going to go right to the borders of the soviet itself and to poland and that was the end of the line for. her in 19. she departed on the train to go to the very first performance in the hague. i climbed on the train and said i was poisoned and she died.
and the very next night because her friends, her company promised her that they would they went for the whole show with a live shining on the spots where she would have been. there was no understudy who could take the place of her up over because she was the greatest dancer in the world. i believe there are 37 biographies written about her and. no one accused stalin of poisoning her, even though she said i was poisoned by, the food i ate in paris. and then when you do research, find the yasha. the circumstance evidence is remarkable. they are gang was concealed completely until the 1990. it'd be another 60 years. that's right. before it was discussed. so i'd like to ask one more question before we start asking for questions, the audience. and if i may when we do go to questions for the audience because c-span is here please wait to ask your question until the mic gets to you and always of course in a question and a
question mark. so if i can answer one of the things that struck when we were talking ahead of time was that you had a finished book at one point and then you thought, you know, there's these crazy things that have happened in the world that would seem to suggest, at least circumstantially, that governments be involved in a way that the they didn't want to admit to. can you tell us a little bit about that process and what it was that you found the current covid 19 pandemic? here's happened a covid 19 happened and. so we took that. we said we've, got to add this into the book because we know it was a leak. it's same leak that was encountered over and over again, we took the book to publishers and they said well, we love your book will a bunch of money for your book but you can't talk about china in the book you can't talk about 19 in the book or putin you said or putin they didn't want putin or anybody then sarah keeps our whole
manuscript and all of our sources, some of which are are fairly secret. but sarah, tell them what happened then this was surprising. so i mentioned earlier i'm an artist and so in some galleries i have a separate and i noticed in the course of writing this book we have 650 endnotes. so i was doing lots of research but noticed in the course that, that my art website was getting hits from wuhan in shanghai. and i thought, well, that's disturbing, has nothing to do with the book. and i don't have any clients in wuhan, in shanghai and i didn't think anything of it and then a couple of weeks later didn't do anything about it. rather, a couple of weeks later, i began to work on the manuscript in the morning and i was the only one that had access to it. john didn't even have access to it, and i noticed that my manuscript had been opened at 4 a.m.. at this point, we contacted the fbi. they said, get a good forensics expert. got a good forensics expert while he was studying it after making a copy of the hard drive sort of tell them what happened. so then in similar manner, i opened the manuscript to work on
it one morning and i would always save the manuscripts by a date because make changes and then we'd want to add back in what. we deleted and whatnot. they were all gone, all deleted. and if i hadn't saved it on a flash drive, we would have lost at least a year's worth of work. and so at that point we contacted the fbi and we already had my hard drive and my wi-fi passwords and everything with the computer forensic expert. and so he ran a thousand tests that i didn't even know were possible got apple involved they ran tests they were able to discover this discovered that the breach happened in the apple icloud which should hit home who here does not save their data understand what they were doing is coming from the apple ii cloud down sarah's computer and so. oh, great. that's exactly right. and so anyway, we were able to determine the breach happened there as opposed to my wi-fi system or hard drive and that most likely happened from china. and there's no way to prove who got in the apple ii icloud.
there's only one country in the world with the capability of actually it. so i guess know we have a very strong in fact i'm sure didn't like our book i wasn't going put my name on the book. i love working with john. it's my second book to work on with him. but the subject matter was frightening so i thought, i'm going to help you, but i'm, i'm going to stay anonymous on this one. and then once my was hacked and the manuscripts were deleted, i thought, well, they know who i am now. i might as well put my name on the book. so talk a little bit about that though the specific issue, i mean, obviously there's been a lot of controversy about gain of function. where has that been done here in the u.s. or out to china? the fact you have this very advanced level for i guess it's a level four, right? virology in wuhan, just coincidentally, where the the outbreak starts. so we talk to talk to the skeptics. why do you think that there's a
connection between this global that's caused trillions of dollars of economic harm and of people dying. why why it wuhan that you think this may have come from sarah is going to speak a little bit to the newly discovered evidence but let's start off with the obvious we've known for a long that there's a huge military lab, wuhan, our book attaches the appendix from 2004 and five that locate the big military lab, not the wuhan virology lab, but the big military pile lab in wuhan. so it's been there now, understand what happens. this virus appears for the very first time and only time in nature immediately outside the wuhan military lab and the wuhan virology lab in wuhan, china doesn't exist and has never been located anywhere in nature anywhere else. it is similar to a bat virus,
but not identical. 96.2% of it is the same as a horseshoe bat from the himalayas. and 3.8% of it has never been found anywhere in nature. the bat was brought to wuhan in 2015. we know that because they published articles saying brought it to wuhan boy we're really proud of having this bat and scientist is even nicknamed batwoman and documented so they brought that bat to wuhan and we're experimenting the next piece of evidence is that they were doing so called gain of function research in wuhan, meaning they were actually taking viruses, changing them. and so i was going to talk to this in a second. the very thing that happens is in 2018 now developed, it was actually a application by. the wuhan lab with the us government to actually place the hook.
the 3.8%, almost exactly the 3.8% in a virus. europe before this all came. that's in an article by dr. jeffrey sachs that's recent come out in the journal of, the american academy of science. all right. the thing now happens. it's 1219 december. a doctor discovers it. he puts it on the internet. he says there's a new virus here in wuhan. and you know what they do they put him in jail for disclosing secrets and he dies shortly. they release him and they say, oh, he died of the covid 19 virus, which kills one and a half percent of people his age. all the other guys mostly die. all the samples are destroyed, all the early forensics are destroyed by the chinese military command, which immediately goes into wuhan. there is no doctor fallacy in wuhan. these are all general such and
such, so on. and they go in and shut down the city of wuhan, destroy all evidence of what actually happened in wuhan. the world health organization doesn't their search for an entire year afterwards? of course, everything has been destroyed, as john mentioned, the people in charge of the search are all appointed by. the chinese communist party of the in law we used to receive arrest the local winter the thing speaks for itself if you try you know jon stewart said if there's chocolate goo on the foot of the hershey in hershey pennsylvania it's crazy to think that it's a cocoa mane emigrating from brazil understand these these bats are from 1100 miles away and their normal range is 20 miles and none these bats have ever been located within 500 miles of wuhan, china except in that lab. no other never. not not in history a search has
gone on for them. a search has gone on for the covid. we spent millions. it doesn't exist anywhere over. 80,000 animals have been tested and never exist. can't be anywhere. so it's a created virus that has that leaked out of the people that created it and why don't you go through the jeffrey sachs sure. so sachs's article that came out in june of this year called for an independent investigation of american and universities that could have evidence leading to the origin of covid. interestingly he was able to to show that the covid spike protein that you hear about the furin cleavage site that is 12 hours of rna long. exactly which that kind of precision you don't find in nature. however easy to in a lab but also interestingly, it has a string eight amino acids that is identical to those found in human lung cells.
going back to what john said in 2018, three organizations, university of north carolina, who invented the crispr tool, the gene editing tool, the institute of virology that we've heard a lot about, and the eco health alliance applied for a grant from the department of defense to insert a furin cleavage site that's identical to what is found in covid 19. that was exactly a year before they rejected, because that's illegal in the united states. and then one year later it shows up. we know that those three organized nations had together in 2014 to increase the transmissibility of bat coronaviruses and, then invented in 2016 a virus using a spike protein of a bat coronavirus that had been isolated by the wuhan institute. some of this new information since book was published, the truth has a tendency, even if you slaughter people involved like stalin did, like judas, to sort of come out over a period of time.
i think another very important thing for you all to understand is until the crispr was created, crispr allows to actually edit viruses for the first time in human history, at least in the west, to actually edit viruses and create new viruses. before this time, the soviets were dealing with with plague, they were dealing with anthrax, they were dealing with viruses that actually exist in nature. and how do you weaponize maybe you try and get the most virulent strains. streamable they had an island actually called rebirth island that's outlined in the book, but they couldn't actually create new viruses and we understand what we're dealing with is the first manmade non-natural virus that the world has ever seen. that's the first instance of this ever happening here. there are a lot about the risk of nuclear war, and obviously that's very frightening but i think most of the world doesn't understand the threat of this biochem mikel war even i believe it was in election debate in 2014.
putin was criticized because his army was in disarray and he said yes. but you know, nothing of our bioweapons capabilities. it's a really frightening subject, that that's one reason we wrote the book is to to honor those that he had killed, but also to make the public aware of what's happening. so what was the russian dark behind the name of the island, rebirth island? they would go and bomb and put animals, monkeys, goats and so on. on this, and they would bomb with the plague or bomb it with a or obama with various types thought of diseases. and when the animals died off, they'd put more animals on the island. this is all in all, burke's book and occasionally are fishermen would come down pneumonic plague which is an of disease. you know for hundreds of years we didn't tell the story but in
1930 1939, in the soviet union, stalin and beria summoned the head of their bioweapons project, a guy named abraham berlin, in from saratoga for an emergency meeting in moscow. when he got to moscow, he began coughing at the hotel and, asked here now, and they brought a out and they said, my god, abraham, you've got pneumonic plague. this there's no cure for we haven't seen it. hundreds of birds. everybody died. the hotel got shut down. they said, well, it's just plumbing failure. it's a shame he didn't get chance to meet with stalin directly, but he so it's it represents a tremendous to mankind. it's much worse since gettysburg came about all. we're going to go to questions now and i'm going to take one from our internet audience first and then we'll go to questions in the audience. and so someone who's watching us online? asks, where can people are interested in the on a powerful over story find more
information. well in our book there there actually are in the there are 37 great biographies out of pavlova not 37 great ones there are three great ones. there's a wonderful the greatest is the story by her husband. he loved her deeply. and when you read his biography about her dying, it's very sad and he tells the story of her in mexico. we haven't had time to still, there's a great one by the great ballerina margot fontaine, who wrote only one book about annabel notes her great sources of other information. you can also look at the online if you put in anna pavlova the dying swan you'll see the actual film that john barrymore and mary pickford did of annabel vlhova when they were trying to convince her not to go to russia and to make a movie. in 1929. it's about minutes.
black and white images of her dancing, the dying swan that she was so famous for doing. and interestingly, we we did a book launch at the houston museum of natural science when the book came a couple months ago, and we found a video to close the presentation with ballerinas all over the world dancing the dying for covid relief. so if you do some, you can find some wonderful things about her. wow. all right. so now is your chance to shine. so please raise your hand. and so we will bring you a microphone. all right, here's my good afternoon. the timeline between the events, these individual events happening and then when the information is coming to surface in the in the sources that you guys are finding is very interesting have y'all found or seen any correlate in between how long takes between that to happen is or is coming surface
quicker nowadays and if not do you have any ideas on how can be more proactive in finding out the truth of the events more quickly. i don't know. i took the original let's the murders in russia and in paris took 60 years before the documents ever came out the murder the romanoffs no one really solved until the 1990s. they were murdered in 1980. they, of course, they burned their bodies and put their bones. and, you know, a mine. and then they shot all the people who were actually involved in shooting. and no one really knew what happened until dna testing came about 1991, i think that the discovery of, this gang and putin's is very helpful once again i think it 6 to 1 time 1529155. they were able to identify these guys by video in england and
then a regular old blogger was able to take that image and find out who they were. and then that's allowed the world to track them all over the world. putin's response when he was confronted was to say there is no unit. they were only on vacation, but there should be such a unit. we should have a unit like that that. was his actual response. so it's not an easy question. the problem you've got the woman empire showed up and move on. i don't they ever intended for it to get in wuhan but understand what these weapons you can have somebody cough kansas and that's what you know about it all of a sudden they all showed up in kansas or russ shows up on we in and nebraska and that's about you know they're very difficult to trace it's very difficult to point out what happened. a water source is contaminated or. but to your question, bringing it current about recent events,
for instance, the sachs article coming last month, i think you're seeing more we're seeing more and more in the news evidence of, the lab leak theory being correct, actually, sean hannity on mentioned the lab leak theory and was raked across the coals for it. and actually dr. francis, whose head of the nih approached dr. and said, what should we do about this, what can i do to squash this? and he said, i wouldn't do anything about. it it's a shiny object that's going to go away and it's not going. so i think in the news you're going to start to see more and more people who no longer it a conspiracy theory. but when you add up all the circumstantial evidence, john and, i had fun writing the last chapter of the book, but as lawyers we wrote it like a closing argument and there's just an abandon of evidence. there were a lot of other brave people like nicholas wade, a reporter for the washington post, had to self-publish his own book because they wouldn't. nobody would the book.
and all he was doing was giving the undisputed facts that sort of gone over. and there were a whole sequence there always were in 19,. 1931 to 1934. stalin, 4 million, somewhere between four and 8 million people in the ukraine. they call it the great famine. and a reporter from the new york times, walter or ernie won the pulitzer for reporting that there was no famine in the ukraine. and the guy who showed up and reported that there was gareth jones, he was dismissed as a as a nut and he was actually shot in 1935 by the communists in china. so it takes a while for the to come out. there was a famine in ukraine. 4 to 8 million people died in the ukraine that happened and all the pulitzer prizes in the world don't just don't illuminate the truth what actually occurred. and there's always a gareth jones somewhere in the world
maybe he's a nicholas wade or maybe he's jeffrey sachs, who ideology is nothing important thing but they have a commitment to truth itself. and more and more people are defecting. a lot of our evidence in the books comes from defectors who. one woman actually worked in the lab and told us what was happening. she escaped, but her family is all missing and so there are these brave souls that are out there reporting the truth. it's interesting you mentioned jeffrey sachs, his article, because as i recall, you know, he has this letter or this to american institutions about, what they may have done. it's what's interesting is that the chinese communist party controlled papers in then pointed at his claims saying it was the americans who created the virus. you know, that was interesting. that just came out last week. yes because i remember seeing headlines and it said no new evidence out that covid 19 was created in a lab in a us lab. i'm sorry.
i went, whoa, this is something haven't heard before. so i start poring over reading the articles i can find what. they said was the technology was created in a lab, which we don't doubt crispr tool was created. the university of north carolina there's no evidence covid 19 was created in a wuhan understand what i mean for me in an american lab, the obama administration outlawed gene enhancement in 2015. that was very frustrating to some u.s. scientists they thought you ought to be able to enhance the infection viruses that in laboratories you could of get things infected better and you anticipate other things and but it was outlawed here so it's a felony to it. in 2018, the wuhan, together with two american institution, is show up and they propose that the department of defense fund the creation of this hog enhancement of a bat virus. they say, no, we're not doing that a year later it shows up
the claim is not that that north carolina this or did it the crime is that the technology was u.s. technology it was shared with the chinese and then used by the chinese not for benefit purposes, but for the creation of bioweapon in china. it all centers around this. what you've heard this fear in cleavage. and there's a family of coronaviruses, i think it's called the cervical virus family. and none of those saras viruses have, if you're in cleavage site, not one of them. so we have another question from. the audience here down front. that's. hi. thank you all being here. so despite the fact that covid is still going, we're hearing a lot of new news about other viruses that are also popping up specific, likely monkeypox. and i was wondering if you guys have done any research on,
whether that was manufactured or if it's bioweapon or if you have suspicions, what are your thoughts? i done any research on that. we sort of our hands full with, oh, corona people don't realize coronavirus, you know, it hasn't gone away it's only gone away in the newspapers. there are 120,000 people every single day coming down for the first time with coronavirus. right now, there are about 4 to 500 people every single day of coronavirus. in other words, somewhere around 10,000 people a month are dying from corona. more people than all the gun shootings, the ten times the gun shooting, more people than almost any other single cause. and it looks like it's going to be a deal that's with us for a long time because it's continuing to mutate. that's why it's you know, it isn't like fauci said, a shining object that's going to disappear. i wish it were, but it hasn't disappeared. they're killing people every
day. john, an hour from houston and i just read an article in the houston chronicle, they'll test wastewater for presence of the corona of covid 19. it's 635 times higher and july of 2022 than it was in july 2020. so it's most definitely not going away. we have a question from online that bears it's a good follow on for for your question. and it's a tough one. i think it's why there no accountability for those responsible for the pandemic and the fallout. is there anything that can be realistic done. i think the very first thing that has to be done is we to tell the truth. i it sounds silly, but we have to get to the truth of it. and the truth of it is it started china in wuhan. china. it's a created virus. it was leaked in wuhan, china. it was a mass up. and there's been a massive up of what happened. once you do that, we have we
need to enforce the 1972 bioweapons convention. we can't let two thirds of american pharmaceuticals be manufactured as they are right now in china. if china has 12 or excuse me, 15 major bio weapons facilities, they don't go out of the bioweapons business. they're out of the u.s. pharmaceutical business. so there are all kinds of steps can take. once we we just realize our ally is the truth. and right now we don't even access to the biosafety level four lab, the military that we're talking about. sometimes that's when we give talks. you hear about the wuhan institute of virology, but there's an adjacent level four, which is the highest level biosafety lab and the w.h.o. was never allowed to investigate that. we don't know what's going on in there. most likely things much more dangerous than covid 19 because we're not allowed access to it. wow. do do we have any idea the level personnel in that lab compared to the so-called civilian lab? i don't know what understand
that. in 1972, china. under under ten shopping major opponent of bioweapons, supposedly at that time signed a treaty together with russia and together with us outlawed all these activities. so all these activities are, a total violation of international law. they're a violation of treaty obligations under the 1972 treaty, a total violation of it while we went to sleep. i'm afraid these fellows did. and particularly in the in the in the putin cheap area. another frightening thing in the of our research, we discovered that the russian. trains one out of five days in full hazmat and the only reason that they would that would be if they themselves were preparing to initiate some of biochemical attack. and i can assure you those chemical nuclear biological suits are very uncomfortable and i can also assure you that the that the russian version is even
more uncomfortable than, the american version, because the one we use is cloth with a activated lining that allows for breathing and disposable. basically, you wear it for for a certain period of time. you throw away and burn it. but the russian has like a rubberized cover over it, meaning that you can't really sweat and. it's made to last longer, but it's tear terribly difficult to work in. we pictures of it in the publication in russia today right? yeah. well, that makes sense because ed is in jail. he's eds. i think we. have time for one more question from the audience if we have one from the audience. otherwise we do have more questions online over here. oh, very excellent. thank you. just a short question. so how was this technology that was developed in the united states ever made available to china for them to teach? the theory was that there was a
tremendous almost a lobby in favor gene enhancement in the united states the theory and it wasn't bad thinking was was bad thinking but it was for reasons. the theory was look if we can enhance genes viruses if we can edit the viruses to make them more communicable in the lab by we can do in a day what used to take us months. also we use gene enhancement to see what viruses are going to mutate into and then instead of being surprised, some some horrible virus that shows up, i will be prepared because we've already looked at it in a lab and there was a great scientific debate between 2012 and 2015 in the united states and was ended in the obama administration. the opposition mean the in particular. and that concludes one was it's banned in the united states no gene enhancement in the united states it's too dangerous. and so on and it looks like what
actually happened is people took the very same and the same idea and decided we'll try and do it in china at u.s. expense, except never got funded by the us. well and we know that those three organizations have worked. there's a man named dr. barrack at the university of north carolina. he was very educated in bat coronaviruses and gene enhancement of them. we know that. i think i mentioned earlier in 2016 those three, the ecohealth alliance, usc and the wuhan institute of virology actually created a new virus using the spike of a bat coronavirus that was isolated by the hiv. so they have experience working together with this in china. there's no evidence to be clear that the university of north carolina ever followed the law in the united states or that dr. barrett did. know i was just he threw it in the topic and the technology was developed there. and then like so much u.s. technology, it migrated to wuhan, china, and it wasn't
being used to just do happy things in wuhan. it was being used for bioweapons as well. john o'neill and sara, when the book is the dancer in the devil, stalin, pavlova and the road to the great pandemic and the authors will be available outside in our lobby to provide copies of the book that have been signed, personally signed. they'll be selling some of their books out in the lobby. and to you here with us and those watching us on the live stream, as well as the c-span audience. thank you so much for joining us today for this book talk at the texas public policy foundation. i'm chuck devore. please have a great afternoon.