tv Stuart Mackintosh Climate Crisis Economics CSPAN August 13, 2022 11:00am-12:01pm EDT
joining us. my name is henry fernandez and on the chair of the board of the foreign policy association and it is my privilege to welcome you to the event tonight. it has really been quite a week for those of us in new york city. the u.n. general assembly is meeting to meet with a large number of world leaders and foreign dignitaries who are in town. in fact the foreign policy association held a terrific event with the president of turkey on monday evening. beyond u.n. activities it is also climate week. my company use this opportunity to premiere our new documentary film "net zero now," which explores the ways that investors can provide to a low carbon
transition and we became a founding member this morning of the net zero financial service providers alliance. committing to align our relevant services with the 2015 net zero emissions target. to underscore how passionate i feel about climate change and how excited i am to introduce our guest this evening. stuart mcintosh serves as deed executive director of the group of 30. an economic financial tank comprised of central bankers, ceos, academics and other prominent thought leaders. one of the members is my friend, mark carney. u.n. special envoy on climate
action and finance who i met with earlier today and i understand is also a source of inspiration to a lot of the sum of the ideas that came out. as i said, mark inspired many of us through his leadership on climate change. stuart was inspired to write his new book, climate crisis economics after hearing mark's 2015 climate speech, below london, working with him after the report title mainstreamed in a transition to a net zero economy. stuart understands climate science and climate policy and climate economics. a rare combination of various expertise.
if you read his books he will see that he's also a talented, aging writer. many years ago, he was a speechwriter for the leader of the european parliamentary labour party. he also worked for the reformer british labour party leader john smith. in addition to being a trained economist, he knows how to communicate and explain complex issues, part of which is well done and the book. he likes to say he comes from a deeply kinetic background, noting that his grandfather was a calvinistic minister in the scottish highland. but he's also a very optimistic person, reinventing the global
economy to reach net zero emission. the key word of course is foundational. providing a roadmap for the net zero revolution. it's here where the world follows it. please don't be feel -- fooled. he's a dual citizen who has the best for 25 years. he understands not only his native country but our own land and has a cabin in the shenandoah valley of virginia. [laughter] in all seriousness, i'm sure everyone will learn a great deal about the climate challenge from reading your book, stuart, and
so without further ado let me turn things over. >> thank you so much, henry, for the kind introduction. start? start it? hold on one second. thank you so much for the kind introduction. it is a pleasure to join you virtually an thank you to the foreign policy for hosting the event and asking me to speak about my book. i want to speak today i'm getting to net zero, principles for change. we are in a race of tipping points. we must get to our own political policy and community conversation tipping point on the climate sponsor very soon. climate change to pinpoint stating no return through systems that accelerate global
temperatures and increases and herald a dystopian world. first i want to say a few words about where we are today. then i'm going to turn to the danger of duck tales. i will draw lessons from the past, the covid pandemic, all of which we can apply to the climate chip chip -- climate change challenge. so, where are we now? co2 in the atmosphere stands at 419 parts per million, a level not seen in 800,000 years. the latest ipcc report is a scream of alarm from world scientists. they warned that dangerous weather event will increase in frequency in the decades ahead. no prior report has been as strikingly damming.
we would do well to listen, learn, and act. we can see that they are right. northern latitudes are warming faster than the southern regions. the summer arctic ice sheet is shrinking in this year in the coming decade. siberia is on fire this summer to pictures 38 degrees celsius and 30,000 square miles of tundra. europe baked. germany saw terrible flooding. and in america, climate related severe weather events. wildfires in california and in the northwest scorched the landscape and to disguise. there is a severe multiyear drought in california leaving levels at lake mead and lake powell at the lowest point in their history. 40 million people rely on the water of the colorado, fed by
snowmelt, yet things are shrinking as temperatures rise. no one makes is going to reverse. hurricane ida visited devastation in new orleans. death and destruction in new york and new jersey. overseas, think of bangladesh where the country was inundated, 25% of its surface was covered last year. 160 million people called bangladesh home. these are all examples of i'm a change related severe weather events. what does the temperature outlook look like? it falls into three buckets. first is a scenario where recent or something like 1.i've degrees celsius where the area has a temperature range of one two to 1.8 and the 2010 to 2040, rising 1.3 to 2.2 degrees from 2041 to
2016. second, there is a current commitment scenario, here the very likely range in temperatures from 1.2 to 18, 2010 to 2040, rising 2.8 degrees celsius from 2041 to 2060. finally, there is the no action failure scenario where the very likely temperature increases run someone owing to a 19 from 2010 to 2041 wait to three degrees from 2041 to 2060. ipcc models make it clear that absolute dramatic action by leaders gathering in november in glasgow for what is known as the cop 26 will end up at best in the second dangerous scenario.
blowing through paris agreement targets and risk triggering tipping points of no return. we have no time to waste much more vicious in our commitments and plans. history is written tomorrow but climate church is being made today. most of us think climate change happens slowly and gradually in a linear fashion. i know my friends and fellow economists would like that, but this is wrongheaded. climate change happens slowly and then fast. nonlinear, interconnected, dynamic and only partly understood. back tail dangers loom. let me take one from prehistory. the era of 11,500 years ago. this was a time of rapid warming over short time. how sure? temperatures in greenland jumped by a staggering 10 degrees
celsius in only a decade. the rest of the world warmed rapidly in just 30 years. this is climate change as slow and then asked. as a result, the rising seas submerged a landmass. the size of netherlands under the north sea as the ice sheet receded. until then my ancestors could have walked from edinboro to oslo. as we can see, climate change is not just about averages, but extremes. economists love averages but they don't tell the real story. today's looming disasters are truly terrifying possibilities. take for instance the doomsday glacier in west antarctica. it's the size of the united kingdom and at least one mile high. it's melting eight times faster than a couple of decades ago. losing 80 billion tons of ice
per year. scientists worry about its stability. working to break, global sea level rise by 65 centimeters. that's not all. the weight acts as a colossal stopper, halting ice flow from the interior west antarctic. without place, ice would flow in the sea, breaking up, adding a further 3.5 meters to see levels . all of the world's coastal cities would be impacted. now we don't know just when that's going to happen. that's the nature of risks. but we know that climate change systems are sloman asked. take for instance the canadian arctic. the last ice shelf that part of the arctic. scientists viewed it as unstable, they monitored it. they didn't know if it faced collapse, but collapsed did.
only in two days last year. here again nature shows us climate change happens slowly until it happens fast. my book lays out many other dangerous global tipping nightmares. but i don't want to ruin your evening. luckily for us, once recognized, climate crises are also crucibles of dramatic change. they shake up the -- the existing order of things, precipitating rapid shift in policy approaches. take for example the black death, the plague that ravaged europe. wave after wave of play rose up, transmitted from rats to human, spurring inflection -- infection and death. spreading by trade down the trade routes to devastate florence, siena, venice, rushing
onwards to london, bruges, paris beyond. this is where the word quarantine comes from. the 40 days during which all citizens in the italian city states were combined -- confined to their homes. black death killed 50 million people across europe. fully 50% of the population of england died. a severe labor shortage in europe led to demands by the laborers at much higher wages. kings responded by outlawing wage increases. that didn't succeed. wages double over a short time, boosting the economic position of laborers and setting the said age for a group of increasingly skilled moderately more well-off workers. the aristocrats lost. the surviving population gained. const shift in the economic power. arguably the disaster of the
black death set the economic stage for the subsequent -- social and cultural revolution as the late middle ages gave way to the early enlightenment and the birth of the world. i think the parallels with covid are clear. in my book i argue that there are positive lessons. crisis when recognized can be dynamic and transformative. crises create windows of opportunity for certain change. political correlations are created. old ones are abandoned, thrown aside. what was previously considered simple -- pop -- considered impossible yesterday now considered possible. when a crisis is properly understood, when the weight shared fairly by all.
the climate change response today is the maximal challenge of our lifetimes. we only have a few years to ensure stable futures for future generation. let us understand and recognize change dangers. let us take lessons from this pandemic about what can be done in extremis when organization is necessary, applying it to climate change solutions. we must do so. as the professor of economics at harvard said to me, if we don't get it right, nothing else matters. we cannot avoid the climate crisis. we must confront it and seize the opportunity to manage the transition, under either a managed process or in a dangerous, disorderly one. mark carney, who henry mentioned earlier --
[no audio] answers to three main questions. first, what should the leaders coming together this fall in glasgow do? second, what should we as businesses and executives do? third, what can you do as citizen actors? so, what should leaders coming together this fall due? first, cop 26 leaders must set ambitious stretch targets. all countries must commit to net zero. plan for it, benchmark it. short, medium, long-term plans with mark just. as many of you may know, plans and to do lists are actionable and they may seem burdensome but
planning is essential. second, cop 26 leaders need to harness the markets to the task and use the dynamics of the markets to some work the transition. enhanced transparency and disclosure are in important part of that. they should mandate that all large companies, public and private, disclose carbon intensity according to common metrics. this will allow investors to be better informed when they make decisions about where they will their money. firms that are going grin -- green will win the race for funding with lysing -- rising equity values. wizards -- losers and laggards will be left behind. requiring reporting will change business strategies.
markets can act as an amplifier and speed the green shift. i know you, henry, personally, doing a key job in supporting investor decision-making and their ability to select reading from brown. cop needs to do its part to underpin this essential step in market transparency. third, they need to agree on the necessity for carbon pricing, support market expectations, indicate the expectation for prices to rise in the years ahead and converge. let me be clear, carbon prices and cap tax in trades systems must rise fast net zero by 2050. central bankers estimate carbon prices must rise between $200 and $800 per ton by 2050.
currently only a few states and regions are applying pricing levels enough to have an impact. canada has instituted a tax that will reach 170 canadian dollars by 2030. the eu cap and trade system is yet 60. the californian cap and trade system as a price of $17.04. some states have designed their systems to pay back some or all of the carbon revenues citizen and are relatively neutral. others like sweden have reacted by cutting other taxes for compensation. whatever the design, countries must create mechanisms of supported by regulation and effective oversight to internalize the corrected market distortions, spurring markets and firms to making the jump to
50 shades of green. fourth, cop 26 must deliver on their 100 dollars per annum commitment to lower income countries answer green transition. this was made in 2015. today it means an unfulfilled guarantee. it must be delivered upon. this is a small price to pay to ensure that cop 26 is a success. it's 81 -- tiny fraction of the money spent on the pandemic. we can afford it. it's in the interest of the g20 to deliver and support a just transition. now what should businesses and executives do? all firms should decide their own net zero business strategy. business goals lined up against. report on it. award achievements to be on net
zero. net zero is is this assessment and opportunity, as henry said. it's the boot to sustained profitability on over. consider what some of the leaders are doing and what the possible green future is beginning to look like. scottish power has shifted in my home country. today it outperforms utilities. edinboro, my utility carbon footprint is essentially zero. scotland is powered by colossal wind turbines in the highland. clean, green, providing jobs and a strong income stream to rural communities. take this growing u.k. beer producer, they have a net zero plant and a net negative carbon footprint. net negative brew and positive returns. i can drink to that. but i need something to go with
the beer. i could opt for walker's crisps whose circular process provides a crunchy and salty option at the pub. how do i get the pub -- get to the pub as the designated driver? i might take a hummer but that's perhaps inappropriate. today, too much. perhaps i take nissan leaf, best-selling ev. still too large? i might jump citroen me, car so small that you don't need a license and so cheap that after the down payment my monthly costs are the costs of a netflix subscription. perhaps i don't like that and i get the mini for $4500. the best-selling in china. i'm sated. i need to think about investing in a green future. what do i do?
blackrock, vanguard, henry can help me make my investments count. let me say on blackrock, larry fluttered has driven with you the green governor revolution. not kidding around when he demanded change. the exxon board recognizes that now. larry reminds me of a math teacher of mine who was stern, hard, fair. he would say that when we wind and complained about our tasks, it's not that you couldn't, it's that you wouldn't. often we won't do something. you need a leader, teacher, see, investor, regulator to help us get there and do it. my point in taking us down this brief scottish stroll is to say that leaders and businesses are already constructing and re-seating the green for tomorrow and that tomorrow can be better than today.
sustainable, resilient, prosperous. leading firms and ceos are helping us to create that turnout. they are pulling ahead on climate change concerns. the esg wave is rising. young investors want change and are demanding it from advisors. they will receive the largest transfer of wealth in history and they want investments that match their social and environmental concerns. companies that want to be winners need to lead on net 02 secure a green class of investors. those who are green and the skies -- those who are against green under disguise will be penalized works will play a role , as they have with shell others and i expect that to become more common. company boards should be paying
attention. let me turn to what you can do. change your power utility to 100% renewables. consider putting solar pv on your house. make your next car ev. be careful, keep away your teenager. the acceleration is to brutal, too addicted. fly less and perhaps less frequently and when you do, purchase carbon offsets. finally, we should all eat best meet and perhaps feel better. most of us could do that, it would be healthier for the planet and beneficial. so, let me that climate change is the challenge of our lifetimes elon musk can go to mars when the feces hits the fan. the rest of us must live here. you can make a green transition.
we can manage it to be positive and dynamic and construct green globalization. we all need to take sponsor ability and act now to achieve it. we have no time to lose. let's get on with it. thank you. back to you, henry. >> thank you very much for those inspiring remarks. from the summary on some of the components of some of your fantastic book. i especially like how you summarized the call to action between the governments, regulators, and other participators in cop 26. the business leaders that obviously very a great deal of the economic activity in a free market society. and obviously an fortunately the power of the individual, of the
citizen, that needs to do his or her part to contribute to this existential threat. you know, earlier this year i switched my car. switched to an electric vehicle. you are absolutely right. the power of the accelerator is incredible. we have to be, we have to take advantage of it that so, let me, you know i have a lot of questions but in the time that you have i would like to focus on a few of them. the first one and the one that always garners a rate deal of controversy and intensity of his carbon pricing. and of course this is where the nationalist tendencies in terms of setting up carbon prices for imports or for the like can create havoc.
as opposed to a global mechanism of carbon pricing. clearly there is a lot of expectations for the glascow conference in november about coming up with some mechanism for global scheme. maybe you can elaborate the about that given how work into this thing is. what is, what are your expectations as to what can come out of glascow. not only what should but will likely based on know about this the patterns of all of these conversations going on. >> let me start with what i hope and expect to come out of it. i do think we will see an number of announcement stretch goals, additional steps taken by major countries and companies such as yours in the run-up to build
pressure for the overall agreement and the indication that merely what this is about more stretch goals. we cannot just deliver on what we committed to already, we have to have stretch goals on net zero targets, everyone must have a target and a plan and a demonstration to deliver against it. i would like to see signaling on pricing, absolute. i would like to see a minimum commitment to a recognition of an upward trajectory of those pricing. however, i'm realistic that perhaps that cannot be borne at the moment. the reasons that you described, economic reasons, we better and higher carbon pricing over a long life have to change the incentives market ways and deliver the goal that we see.
we really need to press for that i propose ultimately, and it will be part of cop 26 but you avoid a bulk in is asian of the global trading system, we need to, not yet but in the next years, create what i call a world carbon organization we have a wto deals all the trade's it has been a massive's death is no, but now we need to realize that we have to have global carbon pricing in the medium and long term. we don't a neighbor approach where some sectors have high carbon pricing and others have not. so there is this credible inefficiency with data comes and unfairness in trade. that will damage the system
ultimately patient to essentially act as the techno attic was a judicial group that makes determinations about whether carbon pricing applied effectively. i'm realistic, i don't expect that to be related anytime soon, but what i would like to see and hope from cop is a reaffirmation around rising carbon rises to this collective goal. if you look at, if you look at the european environment have rising carbon icing with a rise in the market markets assuming -- politicians will deliver. assuming that there will be higher carbon pricing going forward because that is necessary net zero goal. if cop 26 doesn't do that, doesn't say yes, prepare for
heart -- higher carbon prices, then we get the wrong signal. that signal. i want higher stretch goals. a commitment to monitoring affording as the absolute i know you are pressing many of the aspects necessary on the business side and demonstrating it yourself and how you lead your firm, henry, changing the behaviors of the businesses around you. i applaud that, that has to continue into cop 26 and after. >> great. thank you a lot for that. clearly, no scheme in the world with respect to dealing with this threat is going to be successful with some internalizing of the costs of carbon emissions so that it gets reflected in the full value and
full costs of service in society. turning back to the other concept that you mentioned your remarks into your book about the timing of all of this, the way i normally express that is that the great and of it the paris agreement cop 21 was that if you cut the lights, the world for a target date of 2050, the great curse of the paris agreement was that it capitalized through 2050 as people thought we in your mind, to what you want to see is harnessing the power of the markets to achieve this. markets are mechanisms that are already taking into account the price per capital from carbon
rising companies -- companies. maybe you can share more with the audience, why this is not a 30 year period and why a lot of this needs to happen in the next few years. without that, we will be in serious difficulties. >> it is a very important point because we, as people and human beings, we do not do enough. it is incumbent on leaders but business leaders, advisors, investors and individuals, to demand action, not in 2024, but now. we had to start now and frontload -- we should have
frontloaded years ago. if we had started 30 years ago, we would be much better off. the swedes started taxing carbon 20 years ago. their economy is essentially carbon neutral. they are where we all need to be. we have not done that. we have delayed and procrastinated. we have no time to waste now. we really only have five to seven years to begin to achieve the goal that we have proposed, which all leaders are committed to under the paris agreement. now is the time to frontload, not to wait. what you do that is by not making a long -- just a long-term plan, but the plan needs to be embedded inside each organization's strategy,
measured on an annual basis and adjusted because when you compress it to a 12 month focus, we all know. the workers can say, well, i know what i have to do this year to move down the field. i personally have to do these things. i do have to do the following things this year and i will be measured against whatever we achieve there. it is important that we embed in annual appraisals, and training, and business strategies, and culture and conduct come cross businesses and institutions, across sectors. it requires big steps by the businesses and by the leaders, in order to collectively make
that shift. when the leading regulatory environment and people can adjust and plan for the changes in construction and standards, and so forth. that allows the market to be harnessed, to amplify and accelerate. >> there a lot of common about the government. what i as to whether these actions by government that are trying to force the discussion about climate, the targeting
tech companies and the like. dz that spreading rapidly or you see it as a slow process at this point? >> it is very important because it is a signaling. it holds the board's feet to the fire. this is a core duty. and if a country is as committed , you essentially have a social license to operate in that country as a major firm. and yet, you do not have a plan. you are not applying a plan. you are not being a board of
directors. not necessarily across the world, but in major markets where those countries and governments have legislated for those zero targets. if i were the british board, i would be sweating. i would be asking my ceo, where is my net zero plan? show me how you are achieving it. i do not want to end up being sued because i did not carry out my fiduciary duties. >> is a strong signal of action, and even if it does not spread widely, let's turn our attention
to your remarks. that is the relationship between wealthy countries and less wealthy or poorer countries around the world. as we all know, net zero evolution will create a large number of winners and losers among companies, private or public, among countries and sectors, even individuals. they are reluctant to affect many of the changes that take place. we clearly have witnessed history, the process of trying to retrain communities and
societies, where industries are dying. how should we think about that process between either wealthy countries, poor countries, or within the core parts of a developing market? how do we bring everyone together to capitalize on the opportunities and not be victims of the losses that will occur here? >> let me first address the issue between rich countries and poor countries. we should support the transfers. it should be at least 100 billion. i argue that we should really be looking at 200 billion.
it is still a rental heavily small number of -- small amount of money spent during the pandemic. much of that money could be managed by development banks so that the real cost would be less than that. we can make sure that money is allocated. it is a really good thing because our populations are desperate for assets, desperate for options to invest in investment opportunities that cut emissions. creating jobs and accelerating transition for those lesser developed countries, by giving that type of coordinated transfer would actually pay us back anyway. we would be the investors in those projects.
we are not just doing it for charitable reasons. we are doing it because we have to bring them with us and we need to support their growth, and order to be -- in order to avoid dystopian outcomes, where we leave them behind. let me turn briefly to the issue of advanced economies. particularly in the u.s., dislocation caused by other transformational, technological changes and shifts and industries has not been dealt with properly. it was essentially designed to be impossible to get any support. the question of what you do and how do you retrain workers in disadvantaged industries, which you want to close down anyways. you need to close down coal and
edged trees that are extremely carbon intensive. -- industries that are extremely carbon intensive. you can provide other educational and retraining opportunities. but i am strongly of the mind that this process of transformation, this green transition -- either in a managed way or a disorganized way -- it will drive our economy ahead. the type of jobs that will come out of that process are not the same as the i.t. revolution for instance. creating an app does not create meaningful productive work in west virginia, or in tennessee, or in texas. but building wind farms will --
or solar, necessary industrial shifts -- that does. the states with the largest amount of wind power are not in blue, democratic states. it is texas and kansas. it is real jobs, real income, real developed. it is one that can be more equitable than the paradigm that we have been living. >> migration. this is potentially one of the biggest threats in the abilities of countries to tackle climate change because when you have
large migration flows of a great number of people from one country or another or one region to another, that creates fears and a distribution of water resources, land, housing, so when you address the threat in your book -- can you give us a sense of where would that come from, what areas, and how soon could that start, going back to the issue of timing? what can i create? >> henry, you are pushing me back into my pessimistic view because this is one of many nightmares that we confront. the world bank a couple weeks ago issued its latest upgrade
update to its forecast for refugee floats. they estimated that climate change driven internal refugee migration what amount to 219 million over the next decade. being the world bank, they say internal migration, but we know that is not actually what happens. what happens is, if i am farming in northern india and the temperature simply gets too hot, oftentimes, if i walk outside, if i walk outside and even if i stand in the shade, i will die. it will be so hot that i will die. i will not just move internally.
i may have to say that the game is up. i am out of here and going somewhere else. this will be the case in parts of africa as well because they are suffering from huge amounts of increased heat. it might be the case in parts of south america as well. this comes back to things that we were discussing earlier. it is in our own best interest to address these issues of equity and reinvestment, not just in the advanced world but the emerging world as well. if we failed to do that and if we failed to address climate change, 10, 20 years from now, the refugee floats will dwarf anything that we have seen previously. the disaster in terms of state
stability and in those countries, but also in our own state. i am with you. i do not have an answer. this is incredibly urgent. what we saw in 2010 and 2015, but we still see to a degree in europe is small compared to what will happen in the future, if we do not make north africa more prosperous and stable. >> let me turn to our final question and turn from the calvinistic approach to a better approach. in your book, you explain some of the threats and difficulties, but you also recognized and have spoken about how scaring people
is not going to motivate them. that is not the answer. so therefore, in focusing on what are the things that are going right and the world is addressing some of these issues. what are some specific countries, industries, sectors or individuals that you see progress being made, that we as a race can start dealing with these issues? >> that is a very important question. let me say that one of the things that are argued for in my book and that i really believe, you can see it operating and other countries is that we need
to focus the conversation about climate change. in the end, climate change affects you in your community, in your town, where you live. that is where it becomes tangible and real. that is where the hurricane hits. by localizing the conversation, you can move things forward in a much more productive way because you sit around -- this is often what happened in scotland. you facilitate climate conversation. groups would sit together and talk about the facts of climate change that are affecting scotland. once you have the understanding of the fact, it was found that the conversation changes. it stops being about finger-pointing, character arguments and blaming one
another, and it starts to be about, we all recognize that this is happening so what should we do about it? what should i do about it? it becomes a collective mood because you all recognized something. that is part of it. it is changing the conversations , the stories that we tell each other about climate change and localizing them in the communities that we live in by making the change real. that is one important way that we can make a meaningful difference and we make that difference in our businesses and through our representatives because they do not have to reflect our demands and our wanting as citizens. what about other groups and individuals? clearly young people understand.
they do not really understand the complexity. i think young people, including greta, who is amazing, have a clarity of thinking that we sometimes lack. many things that we cannot do for the following reasons, but these young people are the next generation and they will have to live in the hothouse hellhole. it is no surprise to me that they are demanding change and saying that enough is enough. the latest poll came out a few weeks ago and found almost 50% of young people said that they felt a lot of anxiety and stress about the failure of government to deal specifically with global warming and climate change. this does not surprise me but it gives me a little bit of help because it tells me that the next generation of leaders,
investors and managers -- those people will not tolerate it. we need to listen to what they are saying and be energized by that they should look at what is happening and sheared the demand for action. and stand on those shoulders. do not be timid as a politician. i think many of the solutions exist, and we have amazing entrepreneurial ability to deliver on those goals, to get to net zero or to get closer to it to ensure that we have a sustainable future for all of us going forward. we need to make sure that we make that stretch.
listen to young people. talk among ourselves as communities and support what they are doing. press leaders to actually make the biggest commitments that they can. >> we cannot thank you enough for the time that you have given us to speak to the audience. there are times in history and in our life, and which we get called upon. one of those people who have heeded the call, devoted their time and energy to help communities of business leaders, officials think about this very
important and timely issue. we cannot wait for a new generation. they have to be tackled immediately. personalizing the issues is not just about what can the government do about each of us to address this process and major threat. on behalf of everyone, thank you again for this fascinating discussion. you have given us a lot to think about and for those that want to read your book, a reminder, it is called climate crisis economics. i found it in a search that i did. it is now in paperback.