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tv   Caroline Janney Ends of War  CSPAN  November 10, 2021 3:48pm-4:59pm EST

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emergency room and i said i had trouble breathing. i didn't know i had been shot. i thought the secret serviceman jumped on my back and done the damage. i thought he had broken a rib. when i started to spit blood, i thought the rib punctured a lung. >> when were you first aware what happened? >> when they got my clothes peeled off of me, including cutting off a suit i was wearing for the first time. brand new suit. they found there's a wound under my arm where the bullet hit me there. i was not aware of it. what had happened is the bullet hit off the side of the car. i was coming to the car. went through the space between the door, the hinge space and caught me right here. >> watch the full interview and other presidential history programs any time at our guest today, i want to introduce our guest is professor
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caroline e. janney. her book is end of war, the unfished fight of lee's army. let eets take a quick look at it. we have so many things to share with you. it's going be a fun show. it comes to you from university of north carolina who we think -- thank for helping get her on this program. we'll share some of those with you and we are sending this first edition copy to you with a custom abraham book shop signed
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bookplate. i want you for signing those bookplate and sending them back to us. let me tell you a bit about caroline history of the american civil war and the director of the john l. now the third center for civil war history at the university of virginia. carrie, that is a lot. i know that job. >> that is a long title. >> that is a big job, isn't it. >> it is a wonderful job. it couldn't be better. >> and the namesake on your job is really one of the unharold the heroes of civil war history, collected for years and years, priceless pieces of american history, and now most of them, i guess they reside with you at uva now, right. >> right, the special collection we have somewhere between 30 and
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40,000 letters and diaries that mr. now has collected and invaluable resource, we are just beginning to dig through these and figure out all of the many, many things that he collected and i'll make a pitch here. >> go ahead. >> at the center is we're going to be digitizing this collection and making it available worldwide for everyone to see. >> that is wonderful. that is what guild airman did with their collection which was also the result of a collector going out and just doing what they love to do. and now i will do a pitch for abe ham lincoln book shops. if you want to collect stuff, what john now did was a perfect example of what can happen if you with this obsession of yours. it is valuable.
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it is not just you. it is a really valuable thing. and so it is a great job, congratulations. >> thank you. >> and i know you love doing it and you have all of this great stuff to work with. and quickly for the folks at home, caroline janney is author of remembering the civil war and the limits of reconciliation and burying the dead but not the past, lady's memorial association and the lost cause. when i see that book, professor janney, of course, i think of having had karen cox on this show a few months ago, she did the late robert e. lee statue in richmond, but of course karen had done dixie's daughter. >> right. >> so this topic of women, southern women in the post war is crucial to understanding the civil war. >> right.
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there is -- the words that karen does dove tails nicely, i think our work dove tails nicely tobl and the lee monument or the former lee monument that the daughters of the confederacy rallied around, it was the women that i wrote about in the first book when they were part the initial plans to build that monument starting in 1870 and immediately after lee's death. >> right. right. anyway, that is -- if somebody wants to order caroline's earlier books, we might have them. contact us, but today we're going to talk about "ends of war." if you've been following my social media posts while i've been reading the book the last month or so, you know i'm crazy about it. just so much about this book hits me dead center. i love this book. so let's jump in and start
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talking about "ends of war" so the folks watching at home can get an idea of what they're going to get if they decide to order this book. now, caroline, it is september of 2021 and a war is ending. so people of the united states, and people around the world, are watching soming happen and watching how a war ends. and if nothing else, i think they're probably understanding that this is a complicated messy and heartbreaking thing to happen. wars don't just end. they don't just ring down the curtain and everything is fine. so, i think your story that you tell in "ends of war", it a story about how wars end. the one war that you're talking about, story about wars end. just because we close your book doesn't mean the troubles of the
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people that you talk about are over. why does the end of the civil war interest you so much? >> and i think you have tapped on several really important themes there. and one of those being that we're in the midst of a war ending and it has not clearly ended yet and that absolutely the case for americans, white, black, north, south, loyal or disloyal or however you chose to describe them in 1865, it wasn't quite clear just what it would mean to end a war, to end a war militarily, socially, legally, all of these questions were very much up in the air. and there is a reason there is an "s" in the title. i don't think there is one particular moment that we could point to and for so long appomattox has had a shorthand all of the time. we talk about the end of the
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civil war, people say onno mattox and we all seem to be on board about what that means. and on one hand, that is fair because people at the time certainly hoped that appomattox would be the end. some people at the time. >> that is right. >> that appomattox would be the end. but it wasn't entirely clear. and i think we're living in that moment right now of what does it mean to end a war. but i think i also -- the point that i try to make in the end of the book is that all of these things that happened surrounding the way in which the war came to an end would have long lasting effects, effects that we're still living with today in many instances. >> right. right. and but then the next thing you do, when we actually open your book, most of it is an investigation of what happened after lee's surrender. and for those at home, the book is not going to be that -- that
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interested in palmetto ranch or confederates crossing the rio grande or something like that. although i know you recognize that is important. this is a focus on lee's army as it says in the subtitle. we're talking about the army of northern virginia. and but what made you want to look at that time, at lee's army after appomattox, to keep that story going when other books have closed. >> right. there are a couple of ways in which this book came together. on one hand, the first two books that i wrote, that you've mentioned, looking at memory of the war, i was well aware and kept bumping into things that were happening in the spring and summer of 1865 regarding how unionists are thinking about their former enemies, or do they call them former enemies, are they still enemies. so there is ideas out there but
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my initial invention was i looked at the appomattox campaign and i was going to write one essay about what happened to lee's army after appomattox. we have ashley wilkes coming home in gone with the wind and other one or two soldiers drifting home or we have the notion of a bunch of vagabonds terrorizing the country side. but i wasn't clear how a confederate army was disbanded or demobilized. and so i thought that is a great essay, i can delve into that and it didn't take long getting into the research before i realized, this story is so much more complicated than i had ever imagined. and that blossomed into this book. >> yeah. and indeed it is a
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complicated -- a complicated book and i think it ties in a lot of complicated themes very well. during the course of our talk, i'm going to try to weave as many of those as i can. as soon as i opened the book, it had be fascinated. and i'm simply going to read the breakdown of those numbers that you put right in the prologue, right up front. right up front you tell us lee had 60,000 men when he left richmond. 28,000 were paroled. about 11,500 became casualties, including captures which is part of the story. and that leaves about 20,000 unaccounted for. so what are the future look like to these 20,000 guys? >> right. >> who were they and what was that decision they made right then? >> just to be clear, when it comes to numbers in the civil war, we are doing the best that
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we can. >> sure. >> it is really difficult to nail down precise numbers and that is kind of a rough math there. but there are 20,000 men who aren't formally surrendered at appomattox between april 9th and 12th. what does become of these men? who were these men. they had as many different stories as there were men. some of these men were those who were seeing the writing on the wall. they realized whether at hybrid or many of the other battle as long the way, that this wasn't going well and lee's army could very well be compelled to surrender. they knew the reputation of grant as unconditional surrender grant and they were fearful of what would happen to them as captured confederates of prisoners of war. so some refused to surrender and take off and others are foot sore and tired. they are physically unable to
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keep up with the relentless pace of lee's army as pushed west trying to move south and with joe johnston in carolina, others are very determined not to surrender. and not just to avoid the humiliation of the act of surrendering but to continue the fight and that is the case more so for those who had horses. there is a simple logic behind this. so artillery and calvary men were the most likely to escape appomattox. they are able to ride off from various points of departure with plans for what they can do next. can they rand a view in the small town in the mountains of north carolina or maybe they could go to the hills in hamlet, the shenandoah valley and reorganize many of these initially -- and actually well into may and a handful into june
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believe that the fight is not over. and if they could only get enough men, they could continue this war on another front. >> right. and this evokes the memoirs of edward porter alexander who tells us that he had this meeting with lee on the day of the surrender. they could go to their state and their governors could decide if they could continue the war and stuff like that and lee told him, i'm not going to do that. but then part of what your book, i don't think you handle it directly, but just the whole, you're book says, well -- it doesn't say, but got me to think lee never told his guys that. >> they are not -- >> it wasn't until then that he told them -- the 28,000 that were still with him this legendary piece directive.
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well the other guys didn't get that. >> right. no that is a great point. so he's having that conversation with porter alexander and he's telling members of his command that this is what he wants. but your right, to my knowledge, this is never directly communicated. but at that point, too, it is also pretty late in the day. there are thousands upon thousands of men not calvary and artillery yet but the others that have dropped out of the ranks. it is too late for those men. >> right. for them to get an order and comply with it. >> right. >> yeah. obey, talking about appomattox is a whole genre of literature and talking about the details of that, there haven't been one book written about each detail and there is a whole list of responses and what i think that says about sapo mattox and the
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meeting when ch we're going to talk about, but we could spend the rest of the inview talking about it, in my mind it is specially the guys in the men in romer mcclain's parlor were aware of what was happening was both a historical event and legendary. and we talk about the myth of the lost cause and that is easy to talk about because appomattox starts and stops and they start saying stuff over time. that is easy for us. but those guys in the parlor knew that something legendary was happening and that is where -- that's something that i think you like, if you read about in the book, when they start creating stuff. the kind of stuff i like. they create the parole get created, they sack mcclain's house and take his furniture
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because they needed -- the men tear down this apple tree which it turned out lee had not been sitting under. >> right. >> so that was like the true -- >> yes. >> so there is this awareness on that day in the parlor of what is happening is eventful and they want to keep it. so we're going to talk about a couple of things that we could spend the rest of the conversation talking about. but one is you share this scene painted by alonso chapel, and i'm going to show it for folks here, and you assume to have liked, liked it as a theme. even though there are problems with it. but i'm going to share it here so that you could discuss it and i want to know why you thought that this is a good representative scene of the
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surrender? >> so, i love this image in part because we have so many different versions of what happened in mcclain's parlor, who was there, who wasn't there, debates about whether sheridan was there or not. there are sp some paintings that include custer there, we know custer was not there. >> right. >> but the various tables and i know there has been a lot of discussion over the years of whether there were two tables or perhaps three tables. i think it only makes sense that eli parker was sitting at a third table. how else would he have been taken and writing down what grant or making the copies that grant asks him to make. so, i'm keen on this image for those reasons, of who it represents being in the room and there are certainly problems with it, but also the notion that the look on lee's face is certainly less than triumphant
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which is not what we see in other images that seem to suggest -- when it is difficult to tell, maybe i should say it that way. when it is difficult to tell who is surrendering to whom. it is clear in this image. >> yeah, and of course i don't know what was date set alonso chapel did this? >> i have it as an 1885 print. i know the other thing in the national portrait gallery which is quite strikingly different that he did was 1870. but i'm -- you know, i don't know whether this was a earlier painting. it would make sense it was earlier before -- >> but i've been obsessing about 1885 lately, because it is the year of grant. it is the year grant dies, it is year the memoirs are published. >> right. >> and it would make sense, whether chapel painted it or whether it is just leaked to the print, and someone would say let's get another piece of grant
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out there. >> right. absolutely. >> so, yeah, what i want to point to, let's talk about the tables. because i have a particular interest in the tables and i know you do too. >> i do. >> and two of the three tables in chapel's painting and agree that the painting is most accurate in terms of wilmer mclean's stuff. and so they have lee sitting at the table that grant sat it, and both of those tables were accounted for. the marble top table where grant is sitting in this picture is i believe over there at chicago history museum and i believe that the grant table that chapel has lee sitting it is at the smithsonian, maybe. >> that is where i believe it is, yes. >> and but this leaves colonel parker's table. which i think captain bowers sat at for a while because i think bower said, there is a story
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where he was supposed to write out the terms and he said my hand is shaking i can't do it. >> you're right, yes, yes. >> so i think bowers in other art work sitting at that table but it was parker, the man with the strongest hand, strongest writing hand on grant's desk, sat down at that table and you see in the background and you see the legs and there are two ledges and it would probably be easier for us to just go ahead and take a look at table itself. which does exist. it is the only table from wilmer mcclain's parlor that day that is not in a institution, it is in private hands and a few years ago it was consigned for sale, perhaps out there on the market, and we had the opportunity, the honor of representing that owner and so that table got to live in
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abraham lincoln's book shop for some time. and so, yes, so there it is. there is the parker table. we don't have it now. don't come asking us for it. but it is definitely the third table and it still exists like everything else, what t was taken because they knew this was a legendary moment. >> it is to phenomenal to see it in a photograph and think about all of those connections whether it be the lithograph or what actually happened. and, yeah, thank you for sharing that. >> sure. the short program of this is this was taken from the parlor by captain thomas wells, captain thomas wells was the son of secretary of the navy gedeon wells. and it remains in the wells family for a long time and the collector who owns this has all of that provenance, that it did belong to the family and it had
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been refurbished at least once, one of the generations thought it would be a great idea to keep a fish tank on it. and so at one point in the later part of the 20th century, it got refurbished because it had fish tank stuff all over it. and like i said, so this is -- we've done like 30 minutes of our talk. >> real quickly, i'll just add one more piece, that in the book i also use a photograph of general ord when he's in richmond and in that photograph, you could see the marble top that has been taken from mcclain's parlor. so you're right, this stuff held value that whether with we want to think about it as a relic or otherwise, people knew what happened in that place would be significant in some fashion or another. and so not unusual that we see
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them all vying for -- i believe even mcclain's daughter, it was a doll that was even taken or sold, whichever the case may be, by a union soldier. here is evidence that i was there. >> yeah. exactly. just like the men that took down that apple tree and took it ome. >> right. >> so, before we leave appomattox, there is one more thing that is created there that is important to your story, and that resolved around the terms of surrender. and grant's famously generous terms of surrender. which created a little bit of legal questionable legal standing which is going to have a practical effect on the confederates themselves as they try to get home. >> right. >> so you could talk about the terms before we follow the confederates out on to the road. >> sure. so the terms that grant offers, which he will later say in his
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memoirs just came to him, he didn't know what he was going to write until he set pen to paper. the terms are that the men will surrender their weapons and their flags. and they will go home on parole, that is an important term that we should maybe flush out of it, but their prisoners of war in other words, they are prisoners of war vowing not to take up arms again against the united states government and the provision that grant adds that is a new provision that we don't see in other terms of surrender is that they will not be bothered, they will not be arrested by union authorities so long as they observe the laws in place where they reside. so that is a new -- you don't see that in vicksburg, you don't see that any other surrender terms. but lee also adds a line and i think this is important to point out, so we have -- we no longer have unconditional surrender
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grant. there is reasons for that, and i'm not suggesting that he did wrong, but there is a little bit of negotiation that is going on here and that is that lee will add until they are exchanged and this might seem like a throwaway line but i think it is important for two reasons. on one hand, lee believe that's he has this tiny pit of hope that perhaps joe johnston's army or kirby smith's army will be successful and there will be a need for his men once more and maybe the war will continue and they'll be exchanged but the flip side of that is grant could have struck that out and he doesn't. and i think that is telling because he thinks that this war is coming to an end. we could let that one go and so obviously i'm paraphrasing here but we could let that go, because obviously this is just a gesture, it is really empty
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because it is obvious that when lee capitulates, the others will follow in his wake. that is what grant very much hoped. >> mm-hmm. and so that is going to create some legal wrangling later. but let's -- what i want to do is, boy, we just spent -- for the folks at home, professor janey and i just spent half of the interview talking about -- >> the first chapter. >> the prologue an the first chapter. ain promise you this is just where the book starts to get really good. >> most of that stuff we kind of knew. >> so when you start to follow those confederates away from appomattox, that is when this book really starts to get good. and what they take with them, let's share another image here, and i got this from -- not from our stock but from the library
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of virginia, they're all issued a parole, right. or a -- >> a parole pass. >> a parole pass. and here is a parole pass that captain james garnette of the ordinance officer of fire and crimes division and he's -- so this is a pass, this is -- what does this do for him and if you read it carefully, what does it do for him when he goes home with his servant. >> right. this is one that -- just a little bit ago, i have never seen that added line. i just absolutely think this is fascinating and i now i have something else to investigate. there is so much going on here we could talk about. so i will take up that bit of it and the notion with -- does it say with horse and servant and i believe it said.
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>> yes, with horse and servant. yes, i misspoke, with horse and and the servant. >> so lee had asked grant if all of the men could take home their horses, the confederate calvary men and officers supplied their own horses so grant agrees to that. but the more interesting part is servant here. which means slave, enslaved person. and this is another part of the story that i think we knew a little bit about but i really try to flesh out as much as possible and that is there were hundreds of black men that were still with the army of northern virginia at appomattox. most of them have been enslaved and either were serving as body serb ants, which is probably what was going on in this case with garnet, or they had been impressed by the confederate government to labor, so both free men and enslaved men were impressed to labor as cooks, as
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teamsters and any other type of laboring event. some of the men were listed in the parole. if you look at the parole list, you could find examples of african-american men who are listed. but in other accounts, we have men that are riding home -- writing home about bringing their body servant, their enslaved man home for them. and what did it mean to be an enslaved person. were you free at appomattox and the short version is no. not necessarily. one of the really interesting things, grant said nothing about the enslaved men and to a lesser extent probably a handful of women that were with lee's army. he does address this at vicksburg, but the war is still going on. there seems to be this assumption that with the emancipation proclamation that
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it will come to an end. but along the route home there are examples of confederates that are forcing enslaved men and women to accompany them to help them. they are hiding their slaves. there is one cal vary man that takes off immediately and to hide the people that he owns to prevent them from making their way to the union army. so, i would love to -- man, to investigate this and figure out who added the with horse and servant, because that is not priptsed -- printed on the original passes that gibbons poor had printing press. so this is something to tuck away to pursue. this is fascinating. >> well now you have me thinking if i compare brian grimes signature with the hand, that is going to be a project for another time. >> so, let me add one other --
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>> okay. >> you're right, we could talk about these. grimes is one of the officers that i mentioned the notion of ashley willkson, just one or two soldiers just walking away. grimes and others, there are entire provisions that walked away from appomattox. the surrender terms creating by the commission on the morning of april 10th tell them that they need to keep their organization to the extent possible. so divisions, brigades, regiments are march ago way and grimes is one of those officers who leads his men away and many of those groups don't hand out these parole passes until they decide to disband usually a few days after appomattox when they realize they can't stay in the large groups, that a thousand men marching away or even 200 member marching away isn't working well. and so, yeah, i have to wonder, we know there were fake passes
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and people have blank passes and filled in their name so why not add a little bit more here. >> yeah, maybe that's james garnet's hand. >> very well could be. >> well, yes, now you could start that investigation. >> i'm going to make a note for myself. >> all right. but then this leads us to the road. and the road is a very important part of this story. and with this book. and in fact i'm not going to make you talk about this, but i'm going to make a very quick observation. your story really is in -- the way i read it, narrative story telling. and chronological. and you could have koezen to write a schematic book about this and that, but you discovered that the story of the war was still going. and you write about that in
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your -- and so for folks at home, this is a story book and the story is fascinating and it just keeps moving. one of the things that keeps moving, now we'll get to a question i'll let you talk about, or you want to talk about the narrative, you could do that, but roads are a big part. roads are a big part of this story. and much of the story happens on the road. and a few years ago yale sternal examined the meanings of roads and route and what you call routes of war which are a book and it is in your bibliography. but so based on this new thinking, like what professor sternal did or other scholars have been thinking about, what is the importance of roads, routes, the environment, the place they're going and how they get there to the story of the demobilization of lee's army. >> what a beautiful question.
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thank you. so it is the story of the roads taken and the roads not taken. the times when roads are dangerous and confederates who have not yet been paroled will decide that they need to avoid roads. i would also add, though, it is passage ways at large for rivers, creeks and streams are also important, whether they are avenues of evasion in some instances, some of the soldiers that tried to slip one to the james river and quietly try to make their way past union troops so these are men that have not yet been paroled trying to get home. but they are -- there is this dispersal that happens from appomattox before appomattox, really the dispersal begins when the armies, all of the armies leave richmond and peterberg.
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but there are roads that take men south and also take them west. they take them to other points of potential transportation. they take them to places like brooksville junction which is a small, for those people who might be familiar with south side virginia, brooksville junction isn't much of a even a little village any more. but it was an incredibly important railroad junction not too far just east of appomattox and it is where the working railroad lines, it is far as the line is working in the immediate aftermath of appomattox and so paroled soldiers from lee's army are making their way there, showing the parole passes that you just gave us an example of, using that to get rations or hopefully to get passage on a train that will take them to someplace like city point on the river.
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so at the junction of the appomattox and james rivers where hopefully they could take a boat maybe to richmond, because that is the quickest way, or perhaps try to take a steamer and go all the way up to baltimore because maybe they need to get home to tennessee or kentucky. and so their fastest route would be to take a ship that would take them to baltimore where they could take railroads from there. so it is the movement away but at times those are treacherous and there are times when being on the road itself could expose you and so here i'm talking about paroled or unparoled, there are a lot of other folks out there who are less than -- who are trying to stay together and so they will camp away from the road so that they're not sitting ducks out there at night. so all of these decisions that are being made, where do you
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find friendly people that are willing to share some of their meager rations, when do you demand it and officers like grimes pull out their side arm that they've been allowed to keep and demand provisions from either individuals or from stores, from quarter master stores that might still be available. >> so making the point that the road could be treacherous to the ex-confederates and to the people live ago long those roads. >> you don't know who these people are and as with any society, as with any group of people, there are certainly bad characters among all of these groups of people. and there is so much danger and uncertainty and this will only become even more fraught rather than less so as the summer months unfold. more people are moving.
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and, i mean, to the book, she's pointing out that so many people are on the move. we have of course all of the enslaved people who -- whose status is murky in this particular moment, but thousands upon thousands are coming into places like richmond. and cities are becoming very full and this is becoming an issue and so soldiers are coming in and there is this -- it is chaos is maybe too strong of a word. but it is certainly chaotic. and the uncertainty and the fears that are wrapped up in all of these various groups. >> exactly. yeah. i'm going to check on our comments real quick. i have to sort of page over there and see who is out there. so let's take a minute to look to see who is out there and see if they have questions or
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comments for us. and a few shoutouts. we have -- you'll like this, we have two regulars, dave, from the u.k., and dave, from gurney, illinois. and so -- >> dave. >> a little dave cohort that is always here and so we do have an international show today. so dave bradley over in the u.k. and he said hello. and also zachary is watching and he said hello. we have an answer to one of the questions that we didn't quite know and that is john willin has chimed in to say the table used by general grant is definitely at the smithsonian national museum of history, it was a gift of libby custer. >> that is right. >> and there are also -- and john said that is our citation. >> i forget the libby custer connection. >> yes.
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and didn't sheridan give it to custer to give it to libby. isn't that weird. >> but custer was not in the room. >> right. custer was not in the room. right. and i don't want to go back into the parlor. >> the parlor. >> and is that a story that sheridan, that mcclain didn't want to shell his furniture and threw $20 on the ground, either take the money or don't, i'm taking your furniture. that is one of the manytories that i heard. let's keep going though with the shoutouts and one of them is thanks for this program. i enjoyed the book. what is up next for professor janey in terms of book projects. wee get to that. but he said go from hampton newsom who has done a lot of great stuff. >> wahoo. >> that what we have here now and i'll check it again before we sign off. but i want to get back on the
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road. because those confederates were having a good time. a good time out there on the road. oh, but this is something that is really interesting in the way your perspective of the book, we start from appomattox and then you look out and suddenly the story of appomattox and the post days started to involve other places and the people there. so no longer confederate soldiers. so what is happening in places like winchester, virginia, you talk about the farmville or lynchberg and this is a place where women come into the story and become protagonists in the story. what is their story of the end of the war? what are those questions? >> well you asked me earlier about approximately 20,000 soldiers who weren't paroled at appomattox and some of them have gone home to their homes. others, as i mentioned earlier, have gone and they're waiting in
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places like the shenandoah valley to be called up by their officers to fight again. but it becomes quickly apparent to grant that he needs to issue these paroles or at least the ability to grant paroles should be extended to all of the fragment of the army of northern virginia as he phrases it. so even before the surrender, the formal surrender ceremony has happened at appomattox, farmville, to the east of capo mattox, are issuing paroles. some are men that are in hospitals there, but the vast majority are men who should have been at appo mot ox and they have not surrendered there. they hear about the parole terms which many did not expect to be so generous and magnanimous so they turn themselves in. this happens in lynchberg as well. and it happens in places as far afield as winchester. i was really surprised at the
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number of men that were paroled in winchester. and somewhere around 2,000 that i've found so far. and i'm sure there are more. hancock, winfield scott hancock is in command there and he not only has the exchange of letters between lee and grant, he has that published and printed. it is nailed up throughout winchester and the lower valley and i think that, as evidence of look, this really did happen, for any nay sayers who might not believe that we have actually surrendered, here is evidence. and he issues stern warnings, come in and get yourself paroled or be arrested and you will be imprisoned. and this does happen in some instances. he sends calvary up and down the shenandoah valley. those men willing to come in on their own will be paroled. those that aren't, are hauled off to prison and who knows when they will be paroled or at least
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they don't know in that moment. so throughout virginia, the northern neck, the peninsula, the shenandoah valley, into west virginia, maryland, even down into the carolinas, men from lee's army are finding their way to other union officials and being paroled. >> so surrendered happen everywhere. and hancock is a person that a lot of people surrendered to, not grant at appomattox. which brings us to not everybody gets these generous terms. there is one confederate officer and his men who by name are excluded from the generous terms. who is that and why? >> yes. that would be colonel john s. moseley and he is on the list of
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people that grant and others despise the most and are most fearful of, mostly and his partisan rangers or as the high kpland would refer to them as gorillas, at first very briefly excluded from these blanket paroles but there will be all of these negotiations had a hancock will play and most will meet with union officials twice, kind of dangling in front them the possibility that he will come in and surrender his command. the 43rd battalion had been just a pain in the neck for the union forces in and around northern virginia and they want that quelled in large part, and this is another undercurrent throughout the book, that grant and also sherman are fearful of guerilla warfare. we started talking about porter alexander and his quest to
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leave. but even though it might not have been the reality, there is a fear that we cannot underestimate that grant and others had of confederates refusing to seek parole and fighting the war by other means via some type of guerilla warfare. so mosby is throughout the story. >> right. and then also this sort of brings us north, north and west from appomattox and so you do turn the perspective a little bit. the dispersal of lee's army and the end of the war also effects the loyal states. >> yes. >> and what are the decisions that people make in the loyal states to suddenly, wait a minute, confederates are no longner one place, they're everywhere. what are we going to do to protect us in maryland and other places? >> right. and so that is a really
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important point. i'm glad that you brought this up. it is not just the story of what happens in virginia or what even happens in the form of confederacy, all of this is spilling out and rippling out in other places in the states that had remained loyal to the union, the border state as we call them. >> and the big question is for hancock, for grant, for the attorney general of the united states, james speed, whether or not confederate soldiers from loyal states and specifically this is maryland, missouri, kentucky and delaware, not west virginia, whether or not they could return to their homes. as they committed such a crime in leaving their loyal states and going to fight for a rebel army, that they no longer have homes. and i will offer this as a tease without getting into all of the -- there is so much we could
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get into it here. there a problem and it is a problem that local citizens will take into their own hands. and if the united states government is not going to effectively deal with this, then they will deal with this. west virginia becomes its own unique case because grant and speed both say actually west virginia doesn't quite fit this mold. it was part of virginia. and when virginia left, west virginia didn't exist. so there was an ordinance of succession so people could go back there, loyal west virginians do not like the sound of this. about 18,000 confederates or people from west virginia who fought for the confederacy. >> right. >> and this is going to be really problematic. >> these men left a seceding state and they're going to return to a loyal state. >> right: so what happens if they are paroled and perhaps
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pardoned, granted their citizenship back, and then now they are a voting block. what is going to play out then. >> so that is in charleston and all of these places. >> right. and why do we want these disloyal men back in our midst. it is one thing to send confederates home to states that ses seeded where a matt majority of the population supported the confederacy, it is another to send them home to places where they become very clear in the summer of '65. >> yes. i'll tell you this, professor janey, and this happened all of the time, we should be getting used to it in a house divided. somewhere around the point of ken man in the interview, everybody watching and go aha -- i now i have a question. and so i am going to set my --
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i've great questions. i love to read my questions, i'll read them to myself later. but let's look and leap back over to the folks who are watching on facebook live and because there are some great questions over here. so i'm going to feed you a few. and it depends on how -- let me ask you how much time do you have? i don't want us to go a long time, but five minutes maybe if we go long. >> we could do five minutes. >> okay. it depends on how quickly we get the question. lynn wants to know how -- this is a good question, how certifiable were the paroles? was there a water mark? how did someone tell that they're looking at a genuine parole pass? >> okay. so i assume you mean parole pass and not -- >> i think they're asking about what we should -- >> and there are the parole lists that were kept, there was a master and all of the lists were then compiled and those are different than the parole pass.
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the parole pass is what is issued to each individual man that was printed mass at appomattox, like the one that you showed, there is three different designs, that is another story for another time. >> i could show it while you're talks. >> so those were given blank to either the regimen or some cases the brigade commander. so it is not union officers or union soldiers that are filling these in. so confederates are filling them in. no way to certify, you don't have any i.d. to show that matches the person that you say it is. but there were also lots of blank passes and many of them are not filled out until the men leave, if they've been marching away from appomattox, say they've made their way to just north of danville, virginia, they've headed south toward the
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carolinas and the officer decides, you know what, we can't stay together, let me fill these out. they are blank pass and there handful of intans that i found through letters and diaries where people recount, yeah, i had a blank pass. i tell the tale of two soldiers who go into maryland to get some hot water with a maryland congressman and one of them said that he had a blank pass. but you just filled it out himself. so there is no way to certify. but i'll offer this one little bit. the paroles that are issued at places like winchester, there is a more information on this parole. they include a description of the person, includes their hair color, their eye color, their complexion, so there are physical descriptions that i think are meant in part to serve as a legitimacy test. that this man is in fact -- because i should point out those
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par ral passes from appomattox were issued by union officials. >> okay. let's see here. we have a question from doug in kentucky. hello, doug. and he's written a good question. so let me look at it quickly before -- okay. good question, doug, doug said i imagine that when the surrender occurred the currency was crushed to zero. so particularly among confederate soldiers was there a great amount of robbery, physical violation on the road home? >> that is one of the questions that i was looking for because that is the flip side of the ashley wilkes image that we have. and i would say that it
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certainly happened. but more often than not in the accounts that are left, both on the home front and by the soldiers themselves, many of them kept diaries on their way home. they were meticulous in recording who they got food from, who provided them shelter and who did not provide them shelter. they like to point out people who refused them. but there were also numerous instances in which they do talk about taking especially from african-americans. they in particular, they're looking for quarter master depots an they find several of them along the way outside of what is now roanoke, virginia, in danville, virginia, greensboro, north carolina, there is a reason they're heading to some of these places. they know there are stores of food and other provisions. so it did happen. i think it happened less than i expected i might find. >> okay.
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okay. and thank you very much, doug. and dave from the u.k. wants to know would you agree that lees admonishment against guerilla warfare and surrender terms greatly removed the ex-confederates becoming lawless gorillas. >> it is hard, i think, if i was a betting person, then i would say yes it did reduce. i think this is part of the reason that grant is so adam ant that the paroles be upheld, which is something that i really dig into in the second half of the book when those many of johnson's cabinet are questioning whether they should be upheld and grant is even then saying, look, if we don't uphold them, then this could devolve into something much worse. so, i think grant, as much as lee and grant insistence upon
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upholding the terms of parole, even when others were questioning the except to which they were in fact, many confederates read them as a blanket pardon and they weren't and i talk about state of war as the legal reality in much of the book. but i do think grant was instrumental in preventing more of that violence. we might have expected a lot more. >> okay. thank you very much, dave. i have one more thing i want to share because it has something to do with parole versus pass. and it is also something that we have here and i could share with you. you could see it behind me right now but here is a close-up. this is one -- if you decide to go out and get yourself an abraham lincoln signature, this is one of the most common abraham lincoln signatures that
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exist. it is an endorsement, so you -- most of the time it is cut off of the letter and the rest of the letters is thrown away. but it is very popular, by the way. people did it a long time ago when they were collecting lincolns. but it is this. lincoln probably wrote more than any other time, let this man take the oath of december 8th, 1863 and be discharged. a. lincoln, he signed it december 31st, 1864. and in this case, just for those of you who want to come and see it later, i'll put a link in the comment where's you could see this. it is signed by a. lincoln and andrew johnson and carrie and i were talking how many times in the same room were they together, right? maybe three. so this is a very interesting,
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very interesting lincoln. but what it tells us is it refers to let this man take the oath of december 8th, 1863 and be discharged. what is the law that lincoln is talking about there and how does that effect these confederates at the end of the war? >> so, in december of '63 lincoln issued the 10% plan that would pardon any confederate below the rank of colonel who voluntarily surrender and quite fighting the union. johnson, when he comes into office, he's really wondering to what extent lincoln wartime program, his wartime pardon policy is going to -- and amnesty, there is a difference between amnesty and pardon. it is a blanket, it covers almost everyone, you stand up and take the oath and you're covered. the pardon is for those that are excluded under amnesty and they have to apply individually. the short, very short version of
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all of this is a pardon did imply complete protection from prosecution. you could not be prosecuted if you were issued a pardon. the question is, had the parole passes, had the paroles, not the passes, had the paroles already served that function or was there going to be a next step, would you have to follow through with a pardon? and this will be one of the really contentious issues especially among andrew johnson and grant in that summer of 1865. >> all right. well, thank you very much, everybody for participating. i'm going to have to get back to the issues at hand. and there is so much that we didn't cover. this is such a great book and there is so much that we didn't cover. we didn't cover, what, congressman there maryland, but you love to read about it because it is really great. so will you talk about the two
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confederate soldiers that testified against them. and we didn't talk too much about west virginia and all of that. and there is so much more to talk about around appomattox and all of that. but you'll need to get the book and the book is "ends of war", the unfinished fight of lee's army after appomattox, from university of north carolina press who we once again thank for publishing this book. and helping us set up this book signing and interview for you. and it is 331 pages. there are illustrations and maps and i forgot to write down the price. but presumably you could go to our website and give us that amount and we'll send it to you.
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♪♪ >> veterans from world war ii through the iraq war tell their stories in recorded oral history interviews. here's an excerpt from one story. >> the weight of the attack is geps the south korean army's third and capital division and their 17th regimen. this is the 10th week of the korean war and the fighting on all fronts has reached a peak of fury. although at this time military spokesman are anouning early offensive moves the present situation does not appear optimistic. >> our commander mott gave us a speech. we're gathering up.
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our objective is to occupy this town that was currently occupied by 300 guerillas armed with pitchforks and knives. sometimes i don't know whether it was before or after that, we ran into several truckloads of pretty badly shot up korean militia, south korean. and i understood that there had been a commander up ahead but i didn't know what kind of a problem because i wasn't conversing in the language, and i wasn't briefed being a private. so then we continued on. and then we started marching from that point on. we had two columns extending.
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and i was in reserve company, that was i-company and we were bringing up the rear. so it was about a little after 8:00 maybe a quarter to 9:00 we were probably a cup of miles east. and all of a sudden we could hear exploding shells and machine gunfire and rifle fire and so forth. so we knew there was some kind of contact ahead and we didn't know what to expect. so we arrived on the scene probably 30 minutes later. we were coming up a winding hill and coming up over the crest of the hill. i can see the past about a half a mile ahead going down to tinju -- i'm sorry down into haidong. and the road wound across to the
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right and down a rice paddy on a hill we'll call the north mountain or north hill which the north koreans were entrenched on and ready for us. and up a road further about another 3, 4, 500 yards up through a path that led down through chinju. when i came down the hill i saw three burning vehicles one at the pass and two more about 3ren, 500 yards down the road toward our direction burning. and i also saw another one burning that i got distracted from for a moment, but it turned out to be an orange color jeep that was our air to ground jeep that was burning on the corner of the road and not far from where general chase monument is. we were continuing down the
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hill. we seen mortar fire on the hill that we had just come to back of us. we see maybe 8 or 10 or 12 about five rounds each of mortar rounds. i laid my rifle down and ran down to help them to get them off the road and do what i could. when i got down there i saw one of the roads was ploen out and the other had a shoulder or chest wound, and they were screaming wildly, and i didn't know what to do. the company commander told me to get to my position, let the medics handle it. it's hard to not be able to help somebody but i could see if i moved them, i mind hurt them more. so i went back to my position.
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the medics picked them up and put them on the stretchers and loaded them on the lorry. i'm sorry, this was july 27th. this was about -- the firing started about 8:45 in the morning. at that time i was in the 29th infantry. we assumed when we left chinju, it took us a day or so and we spent at least one night on the road. i think it was one night, the next morning. so on the 26th we camped out and on the 27th we went in to take hadong. >> you have such a vivid memory.
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>> i sleep with it every night and i wake up with it every morning. i used to wake up about 2:30 in the morning same old thing, carrying grenades and rifles going up the hill, the same hill trying to rescue a medic and all these koreans shooting at me and i'm shooting at them. and kind of a bedlam. so i'd wake up and try to figure out -- >> so you have ptsd? >> yeah, a very bad case of it and i didn't know it. here's another sad story. when i came back i didn't know what i want to do. when i got back to japan i used to walk the streets until i was so tired i'd drop. i was just looking for somebody that shared my experience with me. and i didn't know why i did that. when i came back home i thought, well, i want to go to school and do something different. i want to go to law school or whatever i'm qualified for.
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i took a bunch of tests, and their comment was to me you must have had a terrible childhood. i said why. they said you're angry, you have very low self-esteem. you're very aggressive. you're suicidal, all this and that. like you're a time bomb ready to go off. and i said, no, i had a very happy childhood, why would you even think that. and i said i had all the range and open space i wanted to roam around in. i was very happy. i had brothers and sisters and good parents. and no, i was happy. so i said the only thing was going through korea and seeing all my friends killed. i tried to go back and help and
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i was pulled out of my group and then i had to go back. and they restrained me and i felt guilty about. another time i held a guy until he died. when he was dying he said tell mom and dad i'll be all right and that i love them. and he died and i didn't know who he was. i didn't go back to see him. >> where did you go -- >> i went from hadong to chinju and chinju we're taken out again southwest to a new position by the captain. >> where? >> then we got chased off that hill and back through chinju. and after chinju fell is when i left there. >> you can watch this interview its in entirety along with other oral histories on


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