tv Deputy Treasury Secretary Testifies on Sanctions Policy Review CSPAN November 6, 2021 6:14am-8:02am EDT
we will move either next person for the speaking order will be as usual by seniority of members of checked and all turning to karmic intent democratic and republican. today we welcome deputy secretary wally adeyemo to this committee for an updated international policy issues. we have done important bipartisan work on this committee. i think a senator to me and especially senator crapo who was chair when i was ranking up until this year. we were able to make important progress holding countries like russia and north korea accountable for its header to me and i have worked together to pass tough fentanyl sanctions to stop the flow of illegal opiates from china or mexico they're taking such a toll. of the heartbreaking story on the public radio today about what happened in far too many families in this country. i am confident will be able to build on the process we made in conjunction with president biden and deputy secretary wally adeyemo. two weeks ago on this
committee makes what economic and humanitarian crisis as et cetera to me asked us to bring the role sanctions and help you get more aid to the afghan people without resources falling into the hands of the taliban. last week, a broad coalition of countries agreed to substantially increase aid to afghanistan. we continue to work with allies to ensure aid can be delivered effectively to the people there despite sanctions against the taliban. today, we will focus primarily on the findings and recommendation of the months long sanctions policy reviewed that secretary yell in deputy secretary wally adeyemo and others directed the treasury department to undertake. the department consult with agencies across the government, state, commerce, intelligence committee it as others as an array of private sector actors banks, businesses, nonprofits, international ngos and sanctions experts. that reviewed and examined important questions on her sanctions policy. does the u.s. government have the right sanctions tools?
are we using them effectively with allies? are we reassessing their applications and adapting them as we go? are we targeting the right people? the right entities and the right way with the right sanctions questioning ultimately, are we actually changing the behavior of targeted countries on people where that's obviously our goal. i know the treasury has a a recommendation to these other questions. there are some guiding bipartisan principles this committee is recognized for years regarding sanctions and let me just briefly outline those. number one, which impose sanctions on a multilateral basis whenever possible. they are more effective, they garner broader political support we impose them in coordination with allies. number two, preserving strengthening humanitarian exceptions and licensing important to ensure people do not suffer from shortages of food, medicine and other necessities because of the sanctions. number three, for if it sanctions to be affected and must have clear targets, goals and objectives were to for
trying to change countries and other actors behavior they need to understand how once they do better, they can free themselves from sanctions. fourth, the u.s. must a better job of a regularly assessing the effectiveness of sanctions. we need to communicate those findings better to banks and other entities that are implementing sanctions policy. at last, the executive branch must continue to support and empower the dedicated public servants across the government charged with implementation and enforcement. as with any job, workers are our greatest assets whether at treasury, state, on the senate banking housing urban affairs committee, or in the intelligence committee in our government. they must have the funding, the analytical tools the technical expertise including crypto currencies as we discussed. which need a much closer look but they need the technology and time to do their jobs particularly as it increase the use of sanctions around the world. today's hearing will give members a chance to survey other international policy
issues within our jurisdiction. impose any questions to the deputy secretary, which i am sure he is prepared to address but i think it deputy secretary wally adeyemo for your work on these issues by look forward to your testimony, et cetera to me. >> thank you, mr. chairman, deputy secretary wally adeyemo welcome back. under president by the treasury department's advance a number of troubling international policies. some of which are clearly intended to circumvent the will of congress. let's take sanctions to start with. the administration is offered sanctions relief to some of our adversaries in the unrealistic hope they will make concessions amicable to the great nature consider iran for instance. to entice iran to reenter the flawed jcp await the administration appears to lift the sanctions on iran paid them the the administration helps iran will continue to commit see supporting supporting terrorism and curb its ballistic missiles program. let's be clear once sanctions are lifted, iran will never limit its blind behavior. the administration clearly
intends to repeat the mistakes of the obama menstruation reenter a treaty with iran despite bipartisan opposition and without senate approval. in addition the administration has repeatedly failed to comply with mandatory sanctions laws. also, what to look at iran. since president biden was elected, according to the international energy agency, iran has doubled the amount of crude oil it is selling to china to 600,000 barrels each day this year. even at these sales are illegal under sanctions laws the administration has refused to impose congressional required sanctions on the chinese buyers. take case of russia, the administration is also chosen to ignore a law requiring sanctions on russia's north stream to pipeline. the pipeline project manager has been using sanctioned russian entities to construct and finance north stream two. the manager's integral role in the pipeline is predicated on a massive sanctions of asians campaign. congress passed the countering
america's adversaries through sanctions act to punish among other things this very type of conduct sanctions of asian. congress did this because it sanctions of asian harmed u.s. security interests and in this entrance the administration is trying to enact an international tax treaty that will harm u.s. competitiveness and to do it without obtaining the necessary two thirds approval. you recall the tax increase consist of two pillars but pillar one is an unprecedented treaty change less foreign countries to tax american companies to big transfer from us to them. this is a priority for other countries who have long thought this tax transfer. pillar two is it global
minimum tax on foreign income. this is the attempt to justify the huge tax increase and wants to oppose on u.s. companies. unsurprisingly this is the administration's priority is an integral part of dismantling the successful 2017 tax reforms. but by imploring other countries to implement global minimum tax harm their own workers and businesses for the administration implicitly acknowledged their proposed multinational tax increase to make u.s. workers and businesses less competitive if other countries either don't implement a global minimum tax of their own, or implement significantly lower rate than what the administration is proposing. here's the problem. it's a very real possibility other countries will not implement the global minimum tax for them only reluctantly agreed to that global is a condition or in return for getting pillar one, the u.s. attract tax transfer to them.
i don't think that is going to happen. so the administration is either going to impose its own global increase without the countries we compete with having enacted a tax increase are they are going to violet the constitution by modifying without obtaining the two thirds consent of the senate. let's turn quickly to the climate risk report this is the latest troubling policy proposal from the administration we expect this report to come out soon for it's likely to claim global warming poses a systemic risk to the financial system. now i acknowledge global warming is real. however it does not follow from this there is a new systemic risk to the financial system. we have had severe weather event since the dawn of time but as the economist explained to this committee at major weather events and my quote come close to causing a
systemic crisis". this note scientifically validated possibility to changes in the near future. our democratic colleagues through the legislative process which they are doing including calling for a carbon tax in which this very dangerous tax and spend it measure they are contemplating will make energy hires. that legislative approach is not enough to really miss use their and essentially cut off to fossil fuel companies. all across america were arty seeing what they discouragement of necessary energy sources. energy prices spike. this dynamic will only get much worse the financial regulators are pressured to starve the energy sector the capitol it needs to provide america the energy that we all need. deputy secretary wally adeyemo i look forward to discussing these issues with you tonight
too. >> inc. et cetera to me. i sworn in as a deputy secretary public service give meeting governments and companies in our organization to move toward achieving common goal. from the obama foundation he served as president he served as a senior advisor before that at the center for strategic and international studies and a black rock but held number of rolls in public service before this yields a ba from the university of california at barkley. deputy secretary it is good to have you here. welcome please begin. >> chairman brown, ranking member to me and members of the committee pray thank you for give me an opportunity to speak to you today about the national advisory council on international monetary policies are congress the treasury department's priorities and our outlook for the global financial system.
as you know the international financial institutions form the core of the international architecture that is consistent with their economic interests. it is no accident the financial markets are the deepest and most liquid. and that the dollar the world's reserve currency burner economic success as a result of the positive results made out of world war ii alongside the hard work and determination of the american people. america's interest in a strong, stable and ruled -based economic order is also deeply with our national foreign security interest but economic objectives cannot succeed if the international financial system facilitates the flow of funds to oppressive regimes, terrorist groups, cyber criminals and other blind actors. bearing this in mind secretary yellen requested a review of treasury's use of financial and economic sanctions since the terrorist attacks on
september 11, 2001. the review identified four primary challenges for the continued effectiveness on regime. one, our adversaries allowed them to, the growth of digital currencies, three, the need to permit the flow of legitimate humanitarian assistance and avoid collateral impact on non- target populations. and finally for, ensuring sanctions or to briefly describe to the committee treasury advancing to these challenges and modernize the use of sanctions. one, adopting a policy framework. the treasure build up the use of a structured policy framework to inform its recommendations on the use of sanctions. this framework will see to ensure sanctions support clear policy objectives within a
broad strategy. reflect input from technical experts and other critical sources including the intelligence community incorporates multilateral cooperations easily understood , enforceable and reversible per the framework will be a tool to improve the use of sanctions. not a means to prevent it. two, improving access to humanitarian assistance. treasury will work to expand the sanctions, exceptions were appropriate to support the flow of legitimate humanitarian assistance. incorporating lessons learned from the last 20 years. the department is committed to consistently providing clear guidance in the context of all applicable sanctions regimes including the continued flow of legitimate aid to heavily sanction jurisdictions. three, regular assessment of sanctions programs, treachery plans he is a sanctions policy framework on a regular basis to review sanctions programs and the authorities and make
recommendations to augment, and adapt, wind and individuals authorities or to list or delist particular entities. for, improve sanctions coordination. the threat of sanctions alone, not even the imposition remains a powerful tool of economic statecraft. in order to calibrate the tool treasury needs to communicate and coordinate more effectively with stakeholders affected by the use of financial sanctions for this includes u.s. allies and partners, financial institutions and other actors within the financial system. : : : must also adapt. treasury must invest to changes in the workforce and capable
abilities. this will involve streamlining functions as well as making workforce infrastructure investments to take on growing threats like ransom wire and other cybercrime. this effort will require building on current processes in certain areas and changes in others. certain changes may be implemented in the near term while others may require further deliberation analysis to determine the best path forward in collaboration with the state department and other executive branch partners. others will be critical. members, sanctions are not only an important tool of the united states but they play an important role in maintaining those in the global economy that benefits the world for generations. i look forward to working with members to advance the international leadership abroad and creating opportunities for americans at home. i'm happy to take your
questions. >> thanks, mr. deputy secretary. for a lot of time and work in this you've laid out principles and recommendations. what are the most important and urgent findings to require congressional approval? >> i want to thank you and your staff and the committee for spending a great deal of time for those of us at treasury talking about the sanctions review. making sure as we think about the sanctions we are making the investments today to keep up with innovation not only technology but innovations by the adversaries that are attempting to bypass the sanctions. this will require us to do more multilaterally by doing more multilaterally to put ourselves in a place where when we decide to act more unilaterally we have greater power in terms of our
ability to affect change of behavior which is the ultimate goal of sanctions. we need to work with congress to advance within the executive branch to hire staff who understand issues going forward. the fy 22 budget includes additional resources that allow us to build on the technological expertise that we need in the treasury department, and it will also help us bring on the type of workforce we need to ensure that we are able to meet these challenges going forward. a great deal of the work we need to do would to work with the executive brand colleagues but also with congress to advance these important goals. >> the importance of -- what strikes me as especially important is because the last time u.s. sanctions were reviewed as koreans of late 20 years ago and was the reenactment of the new law requiring the exclusion of trade and agriculture and that is a medical product for sanctions.
especially as the pandemic continues to put this at risk, the variance mutate around the globe. what specific steps are you recommending the treasury take to mitigate the harm to the humanitarian aid efforts? >> it's critical especially in the area where the sanctions were used we've learned a great deal from what we've done over the last 20 years. we will see some of that has been applied to the sanctions programs we've introduced recently for example, the president's executive order with regards to actions occurring in ethiopia when we issued that executive order we also put out the general licenses at the same time to ensure that assistance would continue to flow. one of the challenges is that we often will announce the sanctions programs and wait to hear from the humanitarian groups before we then issue
guidance to provide them the ability to continue to flow humanitarian assistance into these areas. our goal now needs to be ensuring we take the lessons we learned of the last 20 years and ensure the assistance can be provided alongside of the sanctions program to meet the needs of people who are suffering in these areas especially during this moment of covid and ensuring that medicine and food can get to these effective people but it will help us and the pandemic globally. >> a number of critics argue the sort of clumsy use or overuse of sanctions of unilateral sanctions by the u.s. especially during the trump administration played into the hands of the adversaries. how concerned are you about efforts by china and russia and others to insulate themselves from the sanctions including by moving away from the dollar
transactions creating new financial messaging systems or taking other similar efforts, do you view these if they were to persist and intensify as posing a threat to the u.s. dollars in the currency? >> the u.s. dollar for the currency will remain for a number of reasons including the fact we made these investments in america. ultimately, people are going to want to do business here because of the strength of our economy and the openness of the system and the certainty of the law. but it is true that our, if we do not view the sanctions appropriately, will it drive not only the adversaries but a number of others to work for ways for the use of the dollar and their financial dealings. our goal needs to be to make sure we do two things. we need to use a framework consistent with the principles that the committee has been outlining but in addition to that we need to try to
multilateral eyes the sanctions whenever possible. while it's hard to avoid being engaged in financial transactions to avoid the dollar it is even harder to avoid financial transactions that have avoided the dollar that's why we try to do more with our allies and partners going forward. >> thank you mr. chairman. deputy secretary, i can't help but note the irony that you are discussing how and why it is so important that we preserve the ability to implement a sanctions regime in the future. let's take the case of the iranian oil sales to china. the counter proliferation act prohibits the purchase yet according to the international satellite data since january of
this year, china has been importing around 600,000 barrels per day and the administration knows it. on september 208th, they reported and i quote, a senior u.s. official said we are aware of the purchases that the chinese companies are making. i'm sure you acknowledge that it requires sanctions on the purchases of iranian oil. >> the law does require the purchases. >> and you acknowledge that they are buying iranian oil in very significant quantities, right? >> i am aware that a number of people are attempting to buy iranian oil and our goal is to make sure -- >> but it is a factual matter that the chinese entities are routinely daily buying hundreds of thousands of oil in direct violation of the sanctions regime. a. >> we continue to monitor the purchases and look forward to --
>> so you are making my point. i'm going to submit and would appreciate a written answer to why it is you believe that the mandatory nature of the sanctions statute is somehow optional because it's actually not and we all know that this is going on. let's move on to more extreme. since early july, several other senators and i have been very concerned that the administration is again violating the statute by not sanctioning the project manager of the pipeline under section 228. here is the problem. the north stream project is riddled with sanctioned russian entities from the project to various contractors, vessels certain employees all subject to sanctions already established sanctions. illustrating why the treasury department is violating this law the obama administration imposed the sanctions due to russia's
efforts to destabilize eastern ukraine. you don't dispute that its subject as a side sanction, right? so, section 228 goes after entities facilitating the sanctions on behalf of any person subject by the united states with respect to the russian federation. that is to say the treasury's website answered to number 546 and explicitly makes it clear persons subject to sanctions imposed by the united states with respect to the russian federation includes persons listed on the list. so we've established that it is a party sanctioned by the u.s. government for the purpose of 228 so you could ask what does that have to do with north stream, on its own website it
describes itself as a project company established for the purpose of planning construction and again i'm sure that you agree it did in fact set up to construct and operate the pipeline. >> senator, we've talked about this issue several times, and i agree with you that we need to do everything we can to implement. as i said to you previously, we are working with the communities -- >> this is important and we are going to run out of time. so, we also know that north stream has facilitated. you might ask how do we know that. we know this because the state department has told us this in a may 21 report, the state department said it has and i quote knowingly facilitated the transactions to provide vessels for the construction of north
stream to pipeline and i'm sure that you will confirm again it was in fact the treasury lawyers signed off on the evidentiary area package that the state department used for this determination. so, you acknowledge it is sanctioned and if it set up north stream i believe you have acknowledged they facilitated the sanctions certainly your lawyers did when the state department concluded that north stream has facilitated sanctions to get the vessels involved in this. do you acknowledge that they did all this on behalf? >> senator, as i said, we are working with you and the committee to hold them responsible for its activities that violate the sanctions. >> but you're not answering a direct question. do you acknowledge they've engaged in the activity laid out by the state department on
behalf? >> we support the state department. the report was based on a separate authority than the one we are talking about today. we are making sure we are working with -- >> it was created to avoid sanctions. for everything around this picture are the sanctioned entities and they needed north stream and the unsanctioned entity to bypass. that is exactly what we passed for only a bipartisan basis and it is unacceptable and is not being implemented. your testimony highlighted important work and it's true they are a threat to us in the world today. it's a key focus of mine in the
committee which i chair and it's why i push so hard to get the infrastructure bill across the finish line in the senate and will continue to get across the finish line in the house. but from your perspective as the deputy secretary what is the most effective way to address what china is doing with the currency manipulation? >> senator, thank you for the question and your work on those important issues. >> the most important thing that we can do with regards to competing for china is making the investments in the united states that you've taken the leadership role on like the infrastructure bill that's passed the senate and is currently in the house in terms of the currency manipulation they've been very clear they will not allow any country to
unfairly use its currency to push for more exports. when it comes to china, we are committed to holding them accountable for their actions both unilaterally in the united states and also working multilaterally with our allies and our partners because we know that fundamentally the actions china take don't only hurt american consumers and workers but they hurt the american workers and consumers around the world. >> is there anything that you need from congress specifically, any additional authorities? >> at the moment i think that thecongress providing the authorities to pull together the foreign exchange report is what we need. we are working actively with the
ustr and other agencies and the government to use the tools to hold china and other accountable. we look forward to continuing to consult if there is no additional authorities that we need. we highlighted in the sanctions review crypto currencies have required us to look at ways that try to deal with potential sanctions. how often have are they used to avoid sanctions? >> we recently put out a report last week highlighting the use
of crypto currencies and ran somewhere to the tune of several hundred million to the crypto currencies we recognize a number of actors that seek to impact of the national security are using crypto currencies to get around the sanctions regime's in terms of a quantifiable number we know is more than several hundred million and our goal has got to be to identify those where it exists. from your perspective do you think that it should be a regulated market in a way that is similar to our conventional monetary system? >> from my perspective i think one of the things we've benefited from a great deal is the innovation that has helped drive the economy and financial innovation has done that but it's important that as we think about those innovations we also have a regulatory regime that protects consumers and the
national security we talked about the reserve currency and you talked about the fact i have a little different perspective but i want to hear yours. could you tell me what impact you think defaulting on the debt might have on the status and reserve currency and the uncertainty that might create? the credibility not only to the creditors but the credibility and the world and a clear impact on people's trustworthiness in the united states and ability to me to the commitment.
>> ultimately the reason that the united states dollars and reserve currency in the rolled is because people trust the united states economy to have confidence in the investments and the decisions that we make and it's time and it would send ricochets through those people that have confidence in the economy. >> thank you. >> senator scott is recognized from south carolina. >> thank you mr. chairman for being with us today i have a couple of questions for you. it was already being sought
through from my perspective and here is a question not related to sanctions. the current proposals coming out of the administration as it relates to the ability to investigate and have access to every transaction for banking account or financial accounts based on simply $600 of flow coming through. it captures basically the same number of accounts ultimately.
i don't know what in the world of the irs will do with the information that they received from these financial institutions. i say this with the backdrop of the last administration who saw they are not investigating nonprofit religious organizations and conservative organizations without expanding the power or the reach, so my concern is as we see the administration's proposal to give more access to the irs to investigate frankly $600 of flow in and out of accounts of every american that essentially captures all american transactions in this country. if you are looking for tax
sheets, that is a terrible way of figuring out a bit if you are in fact looking at a big government proposal to have the ability to investigate every single transaction of a financial institution of your account and my account and their account, this might be a good direction and i would love to hear why you think it's important for every americans transactions to be made available to the irs. to make sure the taxpayers that are avoiding paying taxes pay the taxes they owe. as you know the top 1% of income earners in this country fail to pay more than $150 billion in taxes each year and the reason for this is because they don't earn the same way most of your
constituency do which is information that a teacher or truck driver or any other employee provides to them but also then provides to the irs. the reality is people in their earn theirincome through partner other ways in which they can sell an asset for $2 million and put that in the bank account and tell the irs they only earned 100,000. they can level the playing field. i hope everyone that is watching is listening to an explanation that requires a little more questions.
they know federal taxes. they will literally be having access to investigate their accounts. top 1% or 2% of americans you don't need a threshold $600 or $10,000 as the captures of all the information, all the transactions of everyday americans but the ones working paycheck to paycheck shouldn't be forced to have an additional burden of whether the irs is going to be investigating them and harassing them.
that is an actual additional burden on the working-class americans. >> the president is willing to work with congress on the threshold on ways to protect and w-2s and those that get payments. the goal is making sure people who don't pay the taxes they owe pay the taxes to make sure we have the money to pay for things like infrastructure and childcare. to make sure people pay their fair share of taxes i've got to tell you that this proposal is not in the same universe of accomplishing that goal. this proposal, $600 or $10,000 if you exclude the recipients at $1,500, you still have the vast
majority with an additional burden with another thing to be concerned about from their government. that is not the way that a free market should work or the way we want our country working that every american has to be concerned about the irs. thank you for your response. >> the sanctions are one of the few peaceful tools of diplomacy? i do believe they are an effective tool of diplomacy. i am concerned that this doesn't
reflect a holistic approach to sanctions. i see the treasury department as basically the entity that wants an administration decides to pursue the sanctions in pursuit of peaceful diplomacy somewhere in the world as the executor of the sanctions. it's a foreign policy tool but basically treasury centric that doesn't address the sanctions authority implemented by the state department and largely pays lip service to the state department's role in sanctions. at the same time they struggle to play an effective role in the treasury resources and capacity. my question to start off is why you spend all this time and effort on the review when it is a single agency product rather than one that is reflected in the overall foreign policy
component that should be the driving force. >> i completely agree that they are a tool driven by the foreign policy decisions that are made and mainly driven by the state department and the national security council. but given the importance of this tool we want to make sure we are ensuring that they are effective going forward would you consider a joint effort? they are only as good as they are enforced like any other law. unless there is the likelihood there will be an enforcement for doing so.
to continue to buy from oil in a significant quantity from iranians both subverting international sanctions and impacting the oil market. the united states and the international community doesn't seem to be holding china accountable for these violations. what steps are you taking to enforce sanctions on china to comply with the law? >> we are committed to seeking intelligence on the entities that are purchasing a legal oil and to holding them accountable. we are happy to provide you and your staff on the steps sanctioning makes it relevant at the end of the day and this is done in plain view.
talking millions of millions of barrels being purchased by iran in the international community i don't know how much due diligence is necessary to find out that which is available i also look forward they are talking about making more purchases when we wrote this law we wrote it in such a way such actions are mandatory, not discretionary. yet we have seen both the past administration and this administration, not necessarily enforcing the mandatory nature of the sanctions. >> i am committed to enforcing
sanctions where we have the proof and evidence to do so but we rely heavily on the council of those at the treasury department and the doj in terms of how that enforcement and also the intelligence that we have at hand. on certain persons with respect to the humanitarian rights crisis that was issued by the administration on september 17th. >> senator, we are committed to finding a peaceful resolution in the situation in ethiopia. the president has issued an executive order and we continue to work with bringing them to the table but it's clear that we are also willing to use that
executive order to do so and are committed to keeping you informed as we do so. >> i'm looking forward to the action and i have other questions i will submit for the record. >> the senator for montana is recognized for his office. for the increasing pressure both militarily as well as financially on taiwan whose neighbors in the south china sea and at the same time edging itself from the international pressure with new anti-sanctions laws. how does the decision not to
extend the sanctions laws and to hong kong and form our own a strategy for recurring aggression and the allies in the south pacific. >> senator, thank you for the important question and i think this speaks to why we believe it is critical as we move forward on sanctions we have every opportunity the ability to do that multilaterally. the adversaries are seeking to find ways around the sanctions every day and so they are not just driven by the united states but the international community made up of allies and partners while the economic impact is great. we increase the isolation that matters to the adversaries and puts us in a better position to enforce the sanctions over the long term. a. >> i agree the multilateral
approach is a good approach and i would encourage you to go that direction. in the anti-sanction laws, the main goal in the development and what is immune to sanctions how can we ensure that the sanctions policy doesn't risk the centrality of the u.s. dollar as a dollar-based institution in the u.s. payment networks that go far beyond the specific country that's being sanctioned? >> one of the things we need to do as we think through how we further enhance the dollar-based financial system is ensuring the allies and partners remain brought into that system.
making sure we raise them as part of a clearly defined strategy that we are allowing for a humanitarian access to continue the flow. it is true that they are finding the means around the financial system to avoid the sanctions but it is difficult for countries and adversaries to find the means around not only the u.s. financial system but the financial systems of our partners and allies. fundamentally by taking actions in unison with other countries we put ourselves in a better position to make sure and to hold our adversaries accountable for actions they take to the violation of the international laws and norms. >> just earlier this month
without warning or explanation, the biden administration looked at the sanctions on the identities to involve the military missile programs and the subsidiary contradicts if hewouldn't ease sanctions until iran reversed its course on the weapon. why did the administration lift sanctions on these entities? >> this is not in response to a change in the administration policy but the response to legal actions that were taking place. happy to provide you more detailed briefings on those legal actions and other settings. >> you gave us a great concern and a more direct question would be does the president remain
committed or should we expect to see more of these quiet confessions? >> this wasn't a concession but a response to a legal action. the president remains committed to ensuring that iran doesn't have a nuclear weapon and has made clear if they reenter the jcpoa we are willing to take steps in that regard but not before. >> last on afghanistan to deal with the terrible aftermath of the very abrupt withdrawal in afghanistan questions remain as to how the u.s. is going to prevent the rise of terrorism in the humanitarian crisis in that nation. do you see a scenario where the united states would relinquish the frozen afghan central bank reserves to the taliban? >> i see no situation we would allow the taliban to have access
to reserves to the afghan people. we maintain against the taliban but at the same time find ways for legitimate humanitarian assistance to get to the afghan people. that's exactly what we are doing. good to see you. i agree the sanctions are only one tool in the national security foreign policy toolbox but as you indicated that he can play an important role in and forcing the international system. you would agree china grossly violated its international obligations when it cracked down on hong kong. while we know the sanctions cannot always succeed in reversing the maligned conduct if we raise the cost of those
actions that we send a signal whether it's china and other countries they want to engage in this kind of aggressive behavior elsewhere they will pay a price but that only works if they pay a significant price. after china's actions in hong kong, the congress passed legislation and we offered legislation, the autonomy act that requires them to impose sanctions on the correct demint democracy and on the financial institutions that help facilitate those individuals. senator toomey and i wrote to the secretary back in june applauding for sanctioning some individuals and raising the question about whether or not the administration is successful in any financial institutions that facilitated those. there've been conversations since but as of today is it your
testimony that the department of treasury cannot identify any financial institutions. we haven't found financial institutions that would facilitate those types of transactions, but it's something we are continuing to look at. to increase the cost of people that take these kind of actions and from your perspective not only doing this unilaterally but with our allies is critically important as well. >> let me turn to another piece of legislation.
despite the fact that a un group identified lots of financial institutions either the previous one or the current administration, the biden administration imposed sanctions on any of these financial institutions such as the passage of the act. to identify any institutions helping north korea violate the sanctions regime? the financial institutions that have been facilitating trade with north korea and holding responsible and number of people that have taken these actions. we do appreciate the what
congress has given us that will allow us in the future to do so as we find the financial institutions that violated the law and facilitate the trade and are committed to taking these actions. >> it's not just authority it is a requirement. they are mandatory sanctions on any entities anywhere in the world that are facilitating the north korean regime and so my question remains, and you can get back to me, are you familiar with the un reports that have been done where they identify the entities around the world that are helping north korea identify the sanctions regime and we've concluded.
>> they are required under the act but we look forward to continuing to look for that evidence and working with you and your staff to use the mandatory sanctions that have been passed so we are able to prevent them for advancing the program. >> the appropriations committee just released our appropriations bills for the public review yesterday. i chaired the committee to provide us with an update because on the one hand we have a un report that identifies by name these entities and get we haven't seen any action and if the reason is we don't have sufficient evidence, we would love to sit down with you and go over that.
>> thank you mr. secretary for being here. i'm going to follow up on a couple of things. first of all, both senator toomey and menendez and others to emphasize expressions of commitment have and lead to ledo action in terms of enforcing. you said something else to senator scott about multilateral coordinations. north stream two has been strongly imposed by the european union. two votes of 400-100 and that's rounding up the higher number so it's hard for me to see the commitment when the president announces out of the blue the lifting of sanctions.
and i think we've concluded that the state department determines north stream to has facilitated sanctions. on whose behalf, who is the winner here? why are we facilitating this, on whose behalf is this being done? >> i appreciate the concerns that we've shared of what we are doing in the treasury department looking for any evidence that we can. we've met with several members here to hear from them in terms of the evidence that they have and we've also worked closely with the department of justice so we have a good understanding of the legal authorities in order to be in a place where we can take actions when we have
the appropriate evidence. >> the european union or multinational relationship overwhelmingly opposed to the completing. let me tell you a couple reasons why it's a bad idea in the first place, because it has natural gas produced in russia moved to a pipeline like north stream to. besides captivating the european allies to a single source stepping out of sight for a moment has through the lifecycle of that 41% higher greenhouse gas emission and liquefied consent to the same european allies and that would include the methane leakage so what i'm trying to wrap my mind around is what is the good reason.
i know you are looking for every legal reason to enforce the law which is interesting to me, but what is your theory if you don't know why the president would have done something like this. with regards to the project ultimately the goal here is the same as yours which is to make sure we provide for the security of our key allies while doing it in the way that doesn't further those that seek the region. to use the authority that you've provided us what we are committed to doing when we have sufficient evidence to do so. >> we are going to send the president and most of the cabinet to convince the world to be as good as we are although
last week when there's three times as much greenhouse gas emissions and the only trajectory to be responsible for 100% of the gas emissions growth. why do we apologize for the united states while covering for china who just as you know had a very successful circumventing of a missile. it's very concerning and i'm just concerned about who's side this administration is on and frankly even to climate change. somehow it's making us feel better and then i don't know what they are going to say and glasco. thank you for your testimony.
>> the climate change is a global responsibility, but the transition to a clean energy economy is an opportunity in which we make the investments that are needed and we can become a leader to help to me to the needs of climate change. >> i argue to stay in paris with the last administration for those reasons but i've not seen that leadership anymore. the approval of north stream to, there's multiple bad things about it and including on whose behalf we facilitated the sanctions. >> giant corporations have worked hard so they can pay lower taxes than everyone else and now the democrats are working to make the tax code a little bit fairer and parts of
lobbyists are fighting us tooth and nail to stop it. the whole thing is disgusting but one slide is breathtaking even in this assessed pool and that is the lobbyist fight to protect the ability of their wealthiest clients to cheat on their taxes. millions of hard-working americans file their taxes every year. there are employers and forms that say how much they earned in wages right down to the penny. this was called third-party reporting and it helps taxpayers fill out their tax forms accurately and helps the irs zero in on the tax sheets if the numbers don't add up. they are subject to third-party reporting but the wealthy get their money in other ways and mostly the irs doesn't get any information, third-party
reporting. let's consider a multimillionaire with several mansions who sells one of those mansions for several million dollars more than they paid for it. that's taxable income, but does the irs could third-party verification for how much they make? >> no they do not. let's ask about the partner in a law firm or private equity fund when they get millions of dollars is the distribution of profits from their firm do the irs get to the verification of how much money they make? >> no they do not. when they rake in millions in sales or profit distribution, they are on the honor system so tell me, deputy secretary, how is the honor system working right now? >> they underpay their taxes by more than $150 billion each year
almost $2 trillion over the course of ten years. >> more than $150 billion a year by these top earners and that is exactly why congress is considering a simple new third-party reporting requirement. under this proposal, banks would report just to very general numbers each year. total dollar of income, enter an account and total dollars that have gone out. this means they can spot wealthy tax sheets that have money flowing into an account but they are not reporting any money on their tax return. many people are happy now with the system and they've started a campaign to keep the irs in the dark and some of these folks are just lying about the puzzle claiming that it would give them information on individual
transactions and some have picked up on these lies. under this proposal if i bought new tires or a couch, would the irs know about it? >> no they wouldn't. if i paid my friend back through buying me a cup of coffee, would the irs know about it? would anything at all in this proposal calls the irs to increase audit rates on folks making less than $400,000 a year? to increase the ability of those by underpaying their taxes which are wealthy taxpayers. this would help the tax system just a little bit making sure
that the wealthy have to pay the taxes they owed so tell me how have they been fighting this so fiercely? for a zillion years don't tell me that the banks can't do this. they don't seek to pay their fair share will go to no end as to avoid taxation. that is what we are seeing here. the goal is to level the playing field so that the individuals pay in the same way that the working class pay every day in america. >> as democrats fighting for tax reform that will help ensure that the very rich corporations start paying their fair share. the lobbyists and people they represent are going to fight us with everything they've got including spending millions of dollars on the campaign's.
the senator is just a couple of moments out. i will ask one more question to the white house gathered as you know over 30 nations last week called for accelerated cooperation to combat efforts and protecting cybersecurity from such attacks how does the treasury for congress work cooperatively with treasury to address the problems of sanctions violations through crypto currency in cases of
friends somewhere? >> recently we sanctioned the exchange for the facilitation of more payments and we are committed to continuing to work on sanctions used crypto payments to violated the law and violating times. we want to work closely with congress one of the most important areas frankly is ensuring that we have a workforce that understand these issues going forward so we look forward to working on the authorities to hire the people we need but also the budget increases that are part of the president's fy 22 budget to make sure that we have the personnel needed to address the issues of crypto currency and also other changes that are happening to effectuate the type of behavioral changes we want from the adversaries. a talk for a moment about the
international cooperation to disrupt the ransom where. as you know, senator, many of these exchanges and cyber criminals of ransom where exist outside of the united states and have an impact here. our goal is to work with our allies and partners to disrupt those actors that exist in the countries and a big piece of this is going to be ensuring they also take action to make sure that anti-money laundering rules aren't followed by crypto exchanges that exist in the countries and that they are extending the protections that exist within the traditional financial sector to crypto currencies and financial technologies that are started in the jurisdictions. >> senator toomey has one more question. >> my question is does the administration intend to bypass
the treaty approval process to implement pillar one of the international agreement the administration is pursuing? >> we look forward to working closely on the implementation of the international tax agreement. the agreement is not completed. i can't speak to the process of working with congress on those portions. but what we do know based on the conversations we've had with our international partners with congress and the business community is that the american business community is supportive of the pillar because they see it as a way of creating a level playing field. >> some are supportive and some are not. i would point out that they have 58 unilateral tax treaties to enforce all of them approved by two thirds vote in the united states senate and here's the problem if you can't answer the question of how you're going to implement this, obviously to suggest there is uncertainty about whether it will be implemented. it was pillar one that was the
motivation for other countries to agree to pillar to which is the increase in the minimum global tax. .. >> and get this figured out. senator, as you know countries like germany, france, the uk, they have higher minimum taxes than we do, ireland. >> not with the respective the income - >> there all to the global minimum tax. >> what is a condition, his condition of them getting but
they want and you're not able to expand hundred.get this implemented so you have to question that commitment if they're not going to give they bargained for. >> the senators recognize, the senator from georgia is recognized from his office. >> thank you for your service and your testimony today, the sanctions review and treasury has undertaken in the first six months of the administration we appreciate the details refer to the committee. you highlighted the number of what you possess to be success stories in the document. could you please identify for the committee one or two that have been effective and have not achieved their objectives or the externalities of the sanctions have exceeded it benefit from the treasury's perspective. >> as we say in the sanctions review, we did not conduct, has
a review each one of the 37 sanctions programs that are authorized by the executive branch or congress, rather this review was focused on forward-looking assessments of what we can do to make sure this remains an effective tool. what we learned in some places where we can improve sanctions going forward, elizabeth's mother thanks that we could've done better in the past. for example, ensuring that we continue to use the framework for evaluating and then ensuring the humanitarian access and assistance to be able to provide it to people in conflict zones. we learned a great deal about doing both of these things were the last 20 years we look forward to applying that door sanctions program. >> thank you you to specify number of cases where you believe the u.s. sanctions policy has been effective. i think in the interest of ensuring that we are improving
u.s. policy, having undertaken a clear review of the past policy and can you please specify places where u.s. asian policy is not function as intended more effectively the cases for example that informed the general assessment to each with respect to humanitarian aid process. >> one of the challenges we identified was the fact that we did not have a clear framework for evaluating the position of sanctions and each one of the instances in the past, and makes it hard to evaluate the success of those sanctions programs. as i said in a report in earlier we do not evaluate each sanctions program, that was put in place so not in a position to tell you where one could have been done better or done differently. what i can tell you is going and going forward basis, we look forward to applying a framework that aligns with the principles of this committee has spoken of
going forward to ensure that were in a place where we can evaluate the successes of sanctions and decide where we need do more or do less in order to have our foreign policy goal and be sure the sanctions are welcome into the future as the foreign policies will. >> reported a belief on looking at the full review on the executive summary specifies cases in iran, a case with respect to the cartels and the sanctions targeting libyan assets following in 2011 and a designation of 1600 terrorist enemies out success stories and i am asking you where are sanctions have not succeeded. have you not identified these cases or is there a lack of willingness to acknowledge policy failure in public. >> you are right that in the report that we do acknowledge a
number of cases worry we have same success and as we said in the report, we did not focusing on each individual program or authority rather we look for things and we highlighted those entities so earlier in my testimony in places where we need to make sure that we address challenges. some of that we need to address that are interim and one making sure that we are able to allow the flow and making sure that the sanctions are used as part of the strategy and challenges are created by her and mr. and at pharmacies and technology when they are attending to find ways to get the river second program, and the ad event a of the currency and things of that nature make it harder for sanctions to be effective. >> respect my time being limited in what i'm asking is for you to identify horrifying learned lessons are ready you have conducted a review of the u.s. sanctions policy. you've identified the review,
specific success stories pretty please with my remaining time, identify one or two specific examples where u.s. sanctions in the review was focused on the idea of us looking into the future as to what we can do to use the sanctions going forward and we did not spend time looking at the individual sanctions policies. i am more than happy to follow up with you and your staff to talk about the sanction programs that you would critically like to discuss but our goal of the review is to look at what we can do going forward to make sure the sanctions remain an effective tool and in order to do that we do need to address the challenges of the review found which we have clearly articulated both in the reporting of done in my testimony today in order to make sure going forward this tools effective pretty.
>> we will need to meet in person because the purpose of this hearing is a policy update and treasury department sanction policy review and if we are unable in public setting to articulate or discuss any specific cases where u.s. sanctions policy has been an effective, beyond generalities, we have more work to do and i look forward to meeting with you so we can work together to improve u.s. policy and thank you. >> the next center from tennessee's recognize pretty. >> thank you for holding this important hearing and deputy secretary it is good to be with you today. as i said before, the financial system in america is the envy of the world. and we need to do everything that we can to safeguard it from malicious activity and maligned behavior. if the ability to access america's financial market is a privilege we must also appreciate the national security and foreign some using that financial tools are also known
to counter the adversaries and constrictor enemies lifeblood. just as we can we saw reports of the chinese communist party surprise the u.s. intelligence community over the summer as they tested nuclear capable hypersonic weaponry and is the muscle that circles the globe at more than five times the speed of sound is harder to track. and reports of such activity -underscore the challenging environment the faces america today we must use every tool in our arsenal to defend our interest to make it clear to our adversaries in american means business. we must do so in the manner it is not inadvertently on the u.s. dollars current status in the world, and make certain we remain the world third currency pretty and i agree with a number of recommendations in the report you've been discussing today for example, clarity cross-sections is critical for enforcement and we must ensure the cost to american small businesses are
minimum. the report notes that it allowed to proliferate and check, digital assets can offer our adversaries means to and in ruin are sanctions and in harvey efficacy of those sanctions. chinese communist party is taking the extreme approach of any all private sector crypto currency identity and your predecessor the treasury department recently wrote about the need to protect security, in a manner that does not question and i agree and i think you did too. we must understand the china's ambitions in the space where this digital want. china's potential desire to facilitate sanctions and the associated national security implications of the united states. so i would like to ask you, how the biden administration are department of treasury continue to lead in the digital assets arena in a way that protects us from the maligned behavior of that we've been discussing in criminal activities that we might see. sina thank you for the question
and i think one of the most important things for us is to note something is being good for our economy and we need to make sure that we need to create an environment that allows the ambition to exist and to make sure that we have regulatory rules for the road that protects consumers, investors and our national security. in doing that, will require us to extend our existing regulatory apparatus to address these issues but also work with congress for me making new revelatory rules to address new accommodation for the things that we want to make sure we continue to do is that we create room for innovations that will help advance our economic interests printed. >> i appreciate that but many of us look forward to working with you in that regard and i would like to turn to another point in that has to do with the imf and communist china. last month law firm, findings
from his investigation today the regularities for their imported bank doing business reports printed these reports providing objective measures of business regulations for local firms, and some 190 economies. the report found that the data describing this business climate and china has changed because of pressure by world bank ceo, and trent. and her goal evidently was to invite china's rankings at precisely the time that the china was waiting at the world bank increases capitol a clear conflict conflict if interest predict the biden administration continues to support the doctor continuing to believe the imf and so, what steps is the treasy taken to ensure the world bank and the imf are safeguarded against corruption by the chinese communist party pretty. >> we reviewed it one of the reports, we saw issues that were
a serious concern and that is why the secretary demanded that they look into this closely by speaking to the lawyers and speaking with the managing director. the basic evidence we reviewed, we did not find it was appropriate at this point to remove the managing director but we did make it very clear during those meetings and directly to the managing director changes needed to be made to ensure that whistleblowers are protected and that integrity of the institutions are protected which is our overarching goal and that we will be holding her in the other leaders in international financial institutions accountable for making these changes. >> i think that report highlighted concerns about conflict of interest and hope that you will continue to work with us to ensure transparency as you hold the imf and the world bank and agencies like this accountable. to prevent are being influenced
like that by the chinese community party. >> thank you, recognized for her office. >> thank you mr. chairman, deputy secretary, thank you for joining us tonight let me also talk about rent somewhere which we know that has been doubled from 2019 - 2020, there's no doubt national security threat. has to no that companies with criminal so two questions for you. what is u.s. government recommended in the private. [inaudible]. and then the second thing is how that local governments and businesses and is there at the federal level basic to help prevent or what some out if there attacked.
[inaudible]. >> thank you for that important question i think the important thing for us all to recognize is that rent somewhere is a symptom of a larger challenge which is that of cybersecurity and most important thing that companies and our government, individuals can do is to make sure that they are focused on improving their cybersecurity in order to provide or prevent criminal actors from being able to get into their systems and potentially use them to ransom them in order to turn those symptoms back on and if a company or government is attacked, the first thing we recommend they do is get in contact with the fbi. notify them immediately of these attacks. our goal ultimately is to make sure that the payments do not blow into the hands of criminal actors and especially because payments don't flow into the hands of those people within been sanctioned by the united states and often times, those who have been attacked, need to also contact the federal
government. the foreign asset control in order to make sure that we are in a position to must help them resolve the situation and hold those accountable who are taking criminal actions against these enterprises. ultimately, the presence committed to a whole of the government after which involves not only the fbi in the treasury department, but our governmental and holding people accountable and as i discussed with senator brown earlier, it is going to be critical that we not only do this in the united states, but them him a global effort because many of these cyber criminals are outside of our country it is so weak the forward to looking and working with members of congress to address his issues make sure that we work with our allies and partners to do so as well. >> thank you. let me ask you this, do you think sanctioning pepto cryptoexchanges. >> anything is risky ultimately in our goal is to make sure that
if we stop these criminal enterprises from using rent somewhere as a tool to gain economic resources so our goal is to use or to make sure that when a company is attacked, they notify us immediately, the treasuries committed to using all the tolls and are also to go after those committing those present were attacks. as you know, we recently sanctioned crypto exchange that predominantly facilitated attacks and also we are looking at other exchanges and other mixers that are doing the same in order to hold them accountable and working with our international counterparts to do it so as well. >> thank you. in 2018, i enjoyed the senator to request a report from the gao on remittances. and as you know they have a weak financial system and a high level poverty and active
criminal or terrorist activity. can you expand on the sanctions and the recommendations for careful calibration to limit these sanctions on the flow of. [inaudible]. humanitarian aid to those in need and how carefully he's calibrating of the - >> this is a critical issue. when we use our sanctions regime our goal is to offer actors who violate our national security. and for the humanitarian assistance and it continues to flow but what we have learned of the last 20 years is often times, when we do not permit humanitarian assistance as right now it creates a gap between an some uncertainty for those who are acting in the space. part of her goal is to ensure that as we go forward, we find ways to create exceptions where possible early on so the humanitarian assistance can continue to follow and make sure
that we barely communicating the financial institutions that are facilitating humanitarian assistance going forward about whether policy intent is in making clear what legitimacy assistance is preventable in order to make sure that as we hold people accountable for their violations that are natural laws and our national security, we continue to allow people to receive the humanitarian assistance they need going forward. >> thank you. >> thank you senator from kansas and is recognized for five minutes. >> thank you good morning. i want to echo before i ask a couple of questions, the concerns that i heard a number of my colleagues raise in regard to sanctioned enforcement. in that regard think about north korea and marston two and i ran and my point that i would make to you is that it seems like we have seen no change or modification behavior in a positive way by any of those
entities, those countries while we are seemingly paused on our enforcement of sanctions in the me now ask a couple of questions in a have the ministration maybe there's an isolation for that but i hope that we are forceful in our efforts to change behavior in all of those instances. let me start with this in case i run out of time. i try to prioritize rated since 2014 from the central bank of china, russia and venezuela in the creation of central-bank digital currency. and as of now china, is on sweetie was doing his first cbc rated there is no question our adversaries will use digital currency to evade u.s. sanctions and regimes as separate civilian populations rated how to central-bank digital currencies
allow for bad actor to accomplish their goals without protection with sensor taken for the ability part dollar and international financial systems and heavy mitigate the blatant attempts by these countries to circumvent our sanctions. >> thank you in my perspective, but as a way to maintain the dollars in the will by making investments here at home and ultimately the reason the dollar is because the strength of our economy so investing that strength and continuing to maintain stable rules -based system in the united states will continue to track capitol rated other countries are developing things like digital central-bank currencies they still have an impact in fundamentally many of these countries he to do this for a number of reasons in order to better monitor their people and make sure that they have
greater control but will have an impact on the international national system but ultimately in order for any currency to have staying power, he needs to be permitted to be used outside of that country going forward and what we are going to do in terms of grass we think our sanctions regime, is to ensure we are thinking through how we design sanctions in a way where if a country attempts to avert this avert the u.s. financial system, he will be harder for them to do that if we are taking sanctions and actions with our partners and allies rated bonds hard to get her on the dollar base financial system, is nearly impossible to get around the dollar the euro, the pound and the yen. so when were able to take actions together, business in a better position told our adversaries accountable. >> thank you in fy 2019, the nba a divided waivers under
specifically with indian mind i think. given indian importance as a partner in the end of pacific, observers across political spectrum they would do sickening harm to our relationship the sections what in the indian make labor requirements congress passed three years ago why is it taking a very long time to reach a decision predict. >> that is a question driven by foreign policy decisions that i am not a position to make but what i can tell you is that we are committed to following the mandatory laws that congress has passed and to using those the authorities you provided going forward rated. >> you're sending to the state department it is. >> i'm saying this is definitely question that the secretary of state is well-positioned to answer within the administration. >> you know the same similar circumstance arose in regard to turkey, and highlights that countries are making decisions
the regardless of our sanctions, they are continuing to behavior the sanctions are designed to prevent or the term the turkey is an example of that in india now is apparently a similar kind of outcome. and then highlights again, i would raise and 16 seconds that i have left, 2019, ga help report the that officials and treasury stated commerce stated they do not conduct agency assessments on the effectiveness of sanctions in achieving broader policy goals. i would hope that this treasury department and others are responding to that to help us determine which sanctions work and in what circumstances that we can better hold our sanction policy. >> senator, i appreciate the work for this committee but to lay out a set of principles to help us do that work and i think you're right that one of the most important thing so we can
is evaluate how these tools work going forward but in addition to new sanctions, the key is how do we enforce the sanctions are really in the books. as always done by making new announcements rather and our engagement of partners and allies to get a funding to the countries that malign actors going forward and an introduction to see more collaboration and coordination with our colleagues at the defense department. we know that ultimately these things are in service with a foreign policy driven by decisions made by congress. and so we appreciate your close working relationship this many and the foreign relations committee to make sure that we are enforcing sanctions in a way that in keeping with our national security. >> thank you the senator from road island and the most senior member is recognized rated. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. we are facing a very challenging
a daunting and complex situation in afghanistan rated the sanctions in place upon the taliban not likely to lift them in fact, the secretary is said that if their behavior is not successful, but at the same time humanitarian crisis, many things violence, the effects etc. and how do we manage this difficult balance between regarding released on interfering with that humanitarian assistance and still maintaining effective sanctions against the taliban. >> thank you and you are correct the situation and afghan people is quite challenging in this ring brought about by environmental circumstances in a number of circumstances that are unique to afghanistan but also
by the lack of management of the afghan economy by the taliban rated fundamentally our goal is to make sure that we are implementing our sanctions regime against the taliban and the network but in the same time allowing for the permissible flow of humanitarian assistance into the country and to that end, we have met on a regular basis with humanitarian groups or doing business and afghanistan as well as our international partners including the un and we've issued a series of general licenses that allow for the flow of that humanitarian assistance going forward however also consulting with these groups on specific issues they continue to have. we believe that ultimately in order for humanitarian assistance to flow from the taliban has to allow that to happen within the country but we are in a position where we are taking at least a week within our sanctions regime to make clear to the mandatory groups that we want to facilitate the humanitarian assistance to the
afghan people. >> now i presume that the state department, but we have very little presence on the ground. it was actually monitoring the distribution of the humanitarian support systems to ensure their not being abused in effect it's getting to the people who need it. >> many cases we are working directly with the state department and the u.s. aid on these types of issues. a lot of the human need assistance as well is on the world including afghanistan is tooth the united nations and as you know that you and it self and sanction regime when it comes to certain actors in the taliban and in a number of these groups that are doing this work, are familiar with doing the work in providing humanitarian assistance and conflict is owned where they are forced to do so and were there is sanctions in use. they've done this for a long
time and bike consulting actively with his inner international apartments, we feel, we can allow the assistance to get to the afghan people without having to provide undue benefit to the taliban. >> thank you and i appreciate this and this is again as i said initially, complex and challenging and on a day-to-day basis i presume that you and your colleagues in the state department are looking at this issue and making judgments about the effectiveness with the program. i think that is a fair statement. and thank you. >> thank you. thank you for joining us today and is been economy is a useful survey of the policy issues in the course of your month-long sanctions policy reviewed were so glad you did that review. i think you for sharing your insights and your recommendations for this committee and this will be the first in a series of one and ongoing conversations on the