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tv   1936 Berlin Olympics - Defying the Master Race  CSPAN  January 10, 2021 1:15pm-2:01pm EST

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republic, all this will be on americans minds as they entered the first truly contested presidential election since the 1800s. announcer: next, despite international concern about adolf hitler and the radical nazi government, the 1936 olympic games were held in berlin, germany. in an online event hosted by the u.s. holocaust memorial two scholars discuss his propaganda goals for the event on how black and jewish american athletes competed and earned many metals despite racism in germany and at home. american history tv visits the national constitution center in philadelphia. to learn about the life and legacy of john marshall, the fourth chief justice of the united states, who served on the supreme court from 1801 to 1835. historianm. eastern, mark depew details the u.s. strategy in invading the island
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of okinawa and the japanese plans for defense, which included, because he attacks on u.s. warships. this summer, the coronavirus has four -- has theed the postponement of olympics, we bring you a conversation about the 1936 olympics held in nazi berlin. there are so many compelling stories ranging from the personal experience of athletes, to the german government campaign to camouflage its policies. please join me in welcoming today's guests. dr. damion thomas. first,sports curator at the national museum of african-american history and culture. good morning. damion: good morning. thank you for having me. i'm excited to participate in this conversation. edna: glad to have you on and maybe sometime we will meet in person instead of on a box on a screen. our other guest is my former colleague dr. daniel green,
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, president of the library in chicago and served as curator of the holocaust museum current special exhibition. americans on the holocaust. he also conducted research for an earlier exhibition about the 1936 olympics at our museum in d.c. we are glad to bring him back to share that knowledge. daniel: thanks. edna: how are things in chicago? daniel: things are all right. you, our viewers, to post your questions in the comment section and we will get to as many of them live in the course of the show as we are able. if we experienced technical glitches, don't worry, don't stress, it will be available to view on demand immediately after we conclude. so how did germany come to host the olympics in 1936? it predates the nazi era. in 1931, germany was awarded the
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right to host the 1936 olympic games which was a powerful signal, a return to good standing in the international community following the first world war. in 1933, adolf hitler was appointed chancellor, and his government quickly transformed germany's fragile democracy into a dictatorship that persecuted jews and thousands of others based on a racist ideology in which so-called arians were superior. leaders in average people in the united states were becoming increasingly alarmed at the turn towards a violent police state. and this made them wary of competing in the berlin games. against this backdrop, i would like to start with you, damion. can you tell us about the debate over whether the united states should participate in the berlin games? damion: thank you. i think you are right. this became a serious point of contention, americans from the
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american olympic committee, the amateur athletic union debated this vigorously, even taking trips to germany to see things for themselves. one of the leading figures in american sports was a vociferous supporter of american participation, and in a close vote, the american delegation decided to continue to support the olympics and to participate. edna: it wasn't just sports organizations who were weighing in this debate. i know jewish organizations, the naacp, many people and groups saw the symbolism, right? damion: definitely. debatedit was widely and discussed it. the naacp had strong feelings about this issue.
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edna: as i understand it, they initially supported a boycott of participating, but once it was decided they would send a delegation, they were supportive of the athletes. is that right? damion: that's true. edna: that's put more of a personal face on this. this isn't just about abstract boards or organizations making a stand. it is about athletes, young athletes, many of whom have trained their entire lives for this moment. can you share a couple of the stories? daniel: absolutely. many were college students at the time. many college presidents how to come out and supported a boycott of the games in 1935. story that stands out is a hurdler named milton greene, a senior at harvard at the time, you see him running the 110-meter high hurdles. he had times that would have qualified him for the olympics,
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and along with another jewish athlete name norman connors, here you see him, they meet with green's family rabbi, a man named harry leavy at temple in boston, and the rabbi talks to these two men and said it would send a real strong message about fair play and standing up if you boycott the games. so milton greene and norman connors do boycott the games. they are two of the only american athletes who decide they will boycott the games. that is a big ask of young college athletes who have been training for something for the whole lives to say i will sit this one out, and you have to think about it in 1936, what did americans know about what was going on in that's a germany?
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-- going on in nazi germany? they certainly knew there was persecution, jews, discrimination against jews, but they lived in the u.s., where discrimination against jews and african-americans in jim crow america. so they make a courageous decision to stand up and boycott the games. edna: despite the intensity of that personal sacrifice and the really wrenching disappointment, they did not talk publicly about the decision. it was really just kind of a personal thing. daniel: that's right. they don't speak out once they decide not to participate. edna: i want to wish a good afternoon to visitors come to viewers watching. i use museum speak all the time. someday we will have visitors in our buildings again. to our viewers watching all around the world thank you for , joining us from greensboro,
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north carolina. good morning to new jersey, florida, harrisburg, san francisco, and internationally, we are glad to have you with us watching from sao paulo, brazil, cairo, egypt. good morning to el salvador, peru, and stockholm. again, i will ask you to post your questions in the comments section. damion, danny has given us a sense of how it played out for a couple of college students who could relate on a personal level as jews. how did african-american athletes grapple with the question about whether to compete or boycott? damion: this is a difficult question because for african-americans, the olympics and sports had been a primary vehicle through which african-americans sought to fight against racial discrimination, by embodying the ideas of the amateur athlete. they saw themselves challenging
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notions of race and racial oppression. some of them were also concerned about whether they would face discrimination in germany, so they had legitimate concerns and worries, but ultimately many of them saw this as an opportunity to compete at the highest level of their sport, then to use their success as a way to speak to african-americans. at the time in america but there -- in america, there was the notion that intellectual capacity and athletic ability went hand in hand, and it was epitomized in the phrase, healthy mind, healthy body, so african-americans used sports to say, look at what we can do when we are given a chance to compete on equal terms. so for african-americans, it had much wider meaning, and because of the oppression they faced in the united states, they saw it
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as their duty to represent the best of america, the best black america at the olympic games. edna: and to recognize the experience of black americans was not the same as that other -- as of other americans. i am acutely aware of it this morning, seeing the news from kenosha, it is not a topic or struggle that is entirely in the past. and thinking about these athletes in 1935, 1936 are experiencing pervasive and legalized discrimination at home, and yet they will represent their country. i also wanted to ask you, had african-american athletes represented the u.s. in the past? or was this something new? damion: african-americans had been involved in the olympic games since the beginning of the modern olympics, the first african-american in 1904 olympic
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games. there had been a long history of african-americans involved, but 1936 was special, it was a year where we had a critical mass, 18 african-americans who competed in the games, so this was a watershed moment in many ways. edna: right. and extremely visible in a way that had not been before. in fact, in the end, 49 nations sent teams to berlin, which the nazis were thrilled about. it really legitimized their place in the world, but also domestic consumption, they look -- to say look we are respected at home, we are included. in that vein, the germans knew the world was watching. how did they prepare for the international attention that the olympics would bring to their city and to their nation?
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daniel: the germans had a chance to show off in 1936, a return for germany back into the community of nations after world war i, which is not even 20 years in the rearview mirror in 1936. one of the things that germany does to prepare for the games is they hide overt discrimination. there had been anti-jewish signs posted publicly, persecution publicly, all the signs are removed from berlin for two weeks in august in 1936. there are roma living in the streets in berlin who are rounded up by nazi germany and removed to a concentration camp. so that visitors don't see overt signs of discrimination against jews, roma, or others. there is a great deal of pageantry at the games. i think we will see video of that now.
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you see nazi flags on the brandenburg gate. nazi flags. instate the torch relay run that we know so well. it begins in athens and ends in berlin. what are the germans communicating their? -- there? that they are the literal inheritors of greek civilization, germany is the new greece, the center of civilization. here you see hitler walking into the games. the germans bring a lot of pomp and pageantry to the games. a lot of what they bring is still with us today when we watch the olympic games every fourth year, but they communicate to the world that they are back in the community of the nations, that they are
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one of the most advanced nations, and even some american journalists and international journalists who go over there report they don't see signs of overt discrimination, even though we had been hearing about that for three years since the nazis had been in power. edna: this sanitized version of nazi germany dupes a lot of people, or it is given a spotlight. i think we have one more image i want to mention, something i have studied and written about, the torch, not just theatrical, but it also adds a false evidence to the idea of the arian myth, that they are some older culture, this is a way of amplifying that. vividly and in person. daniel: that's right. and to see the nazi flags on the brandenburg gate next to the olympic flags, that is not what nazi-ism stands for. they are able to mesh those
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ideals, or at least two dupe visitors, as we said. edna: the symbolism of these games are particular fraught, also quite strong and vivid for african-americans. we have an editorial cartoon i would like us to take a look at. if you could please unpack it for our viewers who may not understand all the symbols. what are we looking at? damion: sure. this was an editorial cartoon which was featured in the pittsburgh courier, the leading african-american newspaper at the time, incredibly wide circulation. it was said for every paper that they sold, seven people read it, so they were able to share this message, this idea of african-americans, that 18 african-americans who participated in the games represented america, represented
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american ideals, and being champions not just that american athletic prowess and success, but also representing african-americans as leading citizens in the u.s., certainly the embodiment of these amateur ideals of gentlemanly and ladylike ability. edna: so this group of 18 known as the black eagles, and their names are listed here on these banners they are holding, tell us a couple of stories of them. who were they, where did they come from, and how did they perform in berlin? damion: certainly the most famous is jesse owens, who won four medals, and became one of the most recognized symbols of success in accomplishment. -- and accomplishment.
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this image we see of jesse owens is really important because we have memorialized this moment in the national museum. we have a statue of jesse owens that is drawn from this particular image, because it really does speak to african-americans athletic ability, but also to the larger lessons we learn through sports, hard work, discipline, persevering through adversity, so we wanted to make sure we were honoring what physical accomplishment meant in the african-american struggle for greater rights and freedoms, and certainly there is john, who is from the university of pittsburgh. a middle distance runner, who essentially came out of nowhere to win gold in the 800-meter race. he would also go on to be a tuskegee airman, a fighter pilot
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for the u.s. military during world war ii, and that is important because being a fighter pilot was one of the most prestigious jobs you could have, and as african-americans tried to tie their war service to the fight against racism in the united states, people like him, who won on the olympic field was also assembled during -- a symbol during the war, given his ability to occupy this very prestigious and demanding job. edna: and less people look back and think they were part of that general fight. i want to remind our viewers that the military was still segregated at the time, so the
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reason you have the unit like the tuskegee airmen is because african-american pilots were not allowed to integrate into other units. so how did a track runner like owens or a middle distance runner like woodruff, how did they perform once they reached the arena in berlin? damion: they succeeded beyond measure and were essential to the success of the u.s. team. yes, we see here jesse owens. he won four gold medals, one of the most successful elliptic athletes. here he is in his team best -- vest showing off his medals. woodruff also took a gold medal in the 800-meter race. struck by the climb, and how unlikely, how many odds, these young athletes had to
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overcome. of 10was the youngest children of a sharecropper farmer. john woodruff was the grandson of enslaved people, the first in his family to finish high school, and it was really college that brought them to sports. am i right? i think woodruff was only 21 when he competed? damion: he was. he was 21. he was a college student, just like jesse owens was also a college student at ohio state. it is also important to remember that they were competing in the north, which provided african-americans with more opportunities to compete at the highest levels of amateur sports, so certainly these are two men who came from humble beginnings to become important symbols that america and -- of america and african-american ambition and success. edna: i know you mentioned -- go
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ahead, danny. daniel: they are stars at their own schools, but they also face segregation at those schools. i mean, these young men and women who compete reflect what it meant to go to germany wearing a uniform that said usa, when they don't have anywhere near full equality in the u.s. at the time. they were very aware of that contrast. there is a hope for the promise of equality, but the athletes, i think many of the athletes were aware of that contrast between the promise and the reality. edna: i would like to ask people to please post your questions. we are also going to be sharing some links, if you would like to explore more about the united states during this time and of the olympics. one question that comes up a lot that i would like you to address
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and put it to rest, is it true that hitler snubbed jesse owens and refused to shake his hand? is that a myth or is it real? damion: it is yes and no. it is certainly true that hitler did not shake jesse owens hand. what had happened was that during the first day of competition, hitler greeted and shook the hands of german athletes who won medals. the international olympic committee said if you're going to shake the hands of german athletes, we would like you to shake the hands of every athlete who wins a metal and hitler decided he would not shake the hands of any athletes moving forward. jesse owens took advantage of this moment when he came back to the u.s. he did not have a lot of opportunities to capitalize on
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his athletic success, but when this story began to circulate that hitler had snubbed jesse owens, jesse owens used it for his benefit, and he began to give lectures at dinners and things like that, and that was often one of the most requested stories, about how he had been snubbed. it just became part of the myth of his experience in germany. edna: so it was not a personal repudiation. he just wasn't shaking anybody's hand after that. let's hear directly from john woodruff. he was a gold medalist in the 800 meter. about what it meant to win in that particular olympic game. [video clip] well, it made me feel good.
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because what we did, we destroyed his master race theory. he had that master race theory, the superior race, that only the pure germans could do certain things in this world. that was what he was advocating, but we destroyed his theory. what if we start winning those gold medals? edna: what is your reaction to that, damion? damion: i sympathize with his position, but i think i would disagree with that, because what happens after the 1936 olympics, we have to remember that germany won the most medals at the 1936 olympics. and they used their success to suggest that they were the superior race. certainly if you think about the
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amazing documentary about the olympics, this celebration of german excellence and athletic prowess, and tying them to the ancient democracies in greece, and so while in america, we often emphasize the success of jesse owens and other americans as sort of repudiating those ideas. the germans certainly did not see it that way. daniel: even more than that, the german propaganda can fear you -- can very easily explain away why african-american athletes dominate at the games, which they do. the nazi racist propaganda starts to argue that african-americans are faster or can jump higher because they are more animalistic, right?
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so their victories certainly don't change any opinions in nazi germany, and unfortunately, don't change many opinions in the u.s. as well. damion: i think that is an important point to remember, that what happens with owen's, owen's success, becoming more dominant in the sports world, is the meaning of sports begins to change. as i mentioned, you have this idea of healthy mind, healthy body. the idea that athletic ability and intellectual capacity go hand in hand, and that is why sports are so intricately linked to american education. however, when african-americans begin to dominate and excel in sports, the meaning changes, and rather than supporting each other, you begin to see people argue that they are conversely
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-- inversely related. so one of the things that propels the success of africans americans in sports is the idea if you are athletically superior, then you must be intellectually inferior, so it is a way to be described as less than white americans and others. edna: that is the way the stereotype and the racism morphs. i know there is a lot written about it, especially the black male body, but the idea that they can have this level of achievement, it is something almost brutal about them, right? we do have an interesting perspective here. frank cohen, a holocaust survivor who volunteers at our museum, shared his recollection
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that when he was 11 years old, he was listening to the lipid games on the radio. he wrote "we cheer the black athletes, particularly jesse owens. since by then, we were aligned in opposition of german nationalism, and were not sorry when the german athletes lost." so for 11-year-old frank, a jewish kid, that summer on a farm, he felt glad, he felt what some of what john woodruff was describing. danny, we have a question from a viewer, asking did any jewish athletes compete in the berlin olympics? daniel: 00:27:55 -- they did compete in the berlin olympics, but in small numbers. one jewish athlete in the winter games, and one jewish athlete in the summer games. it has been speculated that the germans included one jewish athlete on each team to be able to say, we are not discriminating against jewish athletes.
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the jewish athlete who competed in the summer games is a fencer. she was a dominant fencer. she had already won a gold medal in the 1928 games and competed in los angeles in 1932, then stated in l.a. rather than return to germany, in part because of concern for her own safety once the nazis took power in 1933. she has one jewish parent. and she wins a silver medal at the 1936 games in fencing. she is remembered most for her moments on the podium. here she is on the right of this photo. she had features that the nazis would have described as area and , a blondfeatures haired woman, and she is giving the nazi salute on the podium, a jewish woman, which was expected
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of all german athletes, and there is a lot of speculation about why she did this. some people said she did it to protect her family members still in germany. she was worried for her brothers, who were still living in germany, so that is possible. others say she did it to rehabilitate her own image in germany. we will never know. it is a troubling moment to see her giving that nazi salute at that time. this is the last olympics she competed in. she actually returns to the united states after the olympics, to california, and does not go back to germany until the early 1950's and dies in the early 1950's. edna: please do post your questions in the comments section. danny, we do have a couple of questions i would like to combine. a person named susan is asking
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whether the college students you mentioned earlier that didotted participation, they participate four years later? or ever at all? them,k we can combine suzanne and barry have both asked about marty and sam, two athletes we have not mentioned, but we were planning to do their stories, so let's do that now. daniel: sure. to the first question, no one competes four years later. there are no olympic games during world war ii. there are no olympics in 1940 and 1944. we have a gap between 1936 in 1948. so if you are a 20-year-old athlete in 1936, by 1948, you are out of your prime. the people who hoped i will compete in four years, never had that opportunity. marty and sam are to -- two american-jewish athletes, sprinters. one is here on the left, a
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freshman at syracuse university in new york. sam is a runner at the university of michigan. they go over on the olympic team to participate in the four by 100 meter relay. one of the last track and field events. just before the race happens, they are told by the american coach, dean cromwell, that they will be replaced on the relay team by jesse owens and ralph metcalf, arguably the two fastest men on the team, faster than marty and sam. marty glickman, i had a chance to talk and meet with him a few times before he passed away. he attributed this to anti-semitism and not wanting the american olympic committee wanting to show up hidden there -- hitler anymore than they had by having jewish athletes win
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medals at the games. with their times, they probably would have won running with that metcalf itowens and is a dominant race and the americans win the gold medal. we don't know. we won't know for sure why they were replaced. quite outspoken through his life. sam stoller said very little about this after the games, although the little bit he did say, he wasn't as sure that it was anti-semitism among the american olympic committee that led to the replacement of these two runners at the last minute. it ultimately allows jesse owens to win his fourth gold medal. he went over to run three races, and ends up competing in four events, and winning four gold medals. a not to doe
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notlar story -- a dissimilar story in the case of the loan two african-american women athletes at berlin. can you tell us about these two women? damion: sure. they were members of the 1932 team, and one had an opportunity -- and should have had an opportunity to compete in los angeles, but they did not get a chance to compete by excelling in their events. in 1936, those two women were put on the olympic team again. one was a hurdler, and she became the first african-american woman to compete in the olympic games when she competed in the 80-meter hurdles. unfortunately, she hit one of the hurdles and broke her foot and was not able to make it to the finals. louise stokes was on the team but did not get a chance to compete in her running race.
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this was also important because they were in many ways caught up in both the racial dynamics, but also the gender dynamics of the 1936 olympic games. and so, these two women became the first of many african-american women who would go on to dominate women's track and field by the early 1950's. and so, their sacrifices and dedication helped to pave the way for a later generation. edna: we have a couple of your -- of viewer questions for you. darcy sending greetings from chicago, a place we all have connections to. thank you, darcy. darcy is asking, can you share that discrimination and challenges that america's black athletes faced after their return home from berlin? were they received as heroes? damion: sure. you think about the story of jesse owens, at the time, the greatest track and field performance in history.
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immediately after the games, the american olympic committee went on a tour of europe, and they aftere athletes competing two or three days. so it was a grinding performance, and they were trying to raise money to offset the expenses of participating in the olympics. jesse owens who was worn out, who was tired, he decided to go home, and he was barred from competing in track and field. that is sort of an amazing story to think about, but he spent much of the 1940's performing in what you would call spectacles. race -- he would race horses as a way to raise money, traveled with the harlem globetrotters and did a halftime performance, running over
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hurdles as a form of entertainment. and he really struggled to find an economic footing and to benefit from his athletic prowess in ways that a lot of his other white colleagues did not struggle. many came back with a segregated america and had to fight for equality. as i said before, we see that with john winthrop, who join the military, which was quite common for athletes as well. edna: i am reminded of a really disturbing episode that happened to john woodruff after he returned to college. he was prevented from competing at annapolis because of racism, and he reflected, "now here i am an olympic champion and they told the coach i could not run. i could not come, so i had to stay home because of
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discrimination." daniel: just because of the chicago shout up, we have not talked a lot about ralph metcalf, who wins multiple metals at the games, and he continues to persevere in the struggle against racism and becomes a congressman from chicago. edna: thank you. yes. absolutely, a complex and fascinating figure. we can post some links about that in the comments. leftve just a few minutes so i would like to ask a question of each of you. one viewer is asking whether you see a connection between this post-1936 change in the meaning of sports you described in the -- and the high representation of african-americans in contemporary sports? what are your thoughts on that? damion: in some ways, i would like to challenge that. i don't think african-americans are highly represented in sports. african-americans are not the
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majority of athletes competing in professional sports in america. certainly they constitute a majority of those in football and basketball. but if we think about the broad-spectrum of the sports arena, african-americans still represent a significant minority, and i think a lot of it has to do not with the idea that african-americans are somehow genetically superior or better athletes, it is about opportunity. many of the other sports have high barriers to competition. they are quite expensive to play in, so what we see is that african-americans are concentrated in the sports where there is low entry or some subsidized entry. if you think about the way
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certain amateur sports are organized, you don't really get recruited based on your high school team's performance, but at the club level. for example, and mature -- amateur athletics union basketball is important. teams traveled all over the country. but the best teams are subsidized by shoe companies and things like that, but we don't see that same system in baseball, which is also based on traveling teams and things like that. entry, therier to high cost often means you don't get a number of african-americans involved. edna: you have hinted at complex threads woven together about social mobility and sport, and the way they function. danny, in closing, viewers have been debating in the comments americansmerica and choices to participate in the 1936 games. one viewer said it was a bad choice, that it helped to make
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the cruel nationalist socialist regime look legitimate but another felt that african-american athletes and jewish athletes showed the illegitimacy of the nazi ideal. as a historian, how do you reflect on the 1936 olympics to shape the narrative of nazi germany? daniel: the 1936 olympics are a moment of great triumph, a moment of international triumph, as we have said where they convinced the world that they belong in the community of nations and more than that, that they are one of the most advanced of nations. it is troubling. i am sympathetic with the viewer's comments. it is troubling that there is not a more sustained international protest against nazi germany. it is of course tempting to wonder what would have happened if there were widespread boycotts by many nations? germany may have been deeply embarrassed by that, but i don't
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think as a historian, it is always hard to play counterfactual, but i don't think as a historian that that would have stopped hitler's ambitions. and in fact, right after the games, we see germany start to continue to re-arm in violation of the treaties that had ended world war i. we see them start to make plans to encroach on territory, and that will continue, tragically, with the beginning of world war ii, just three years after the olympics. that leads to the holocaust and the death of millions of jews and others throughout europe. edna: on that somber note, i would like to thank you both very much for a really provocative conversation. i'm glad you were here.
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announcer: you're watching american history tv, every weekend on c-span3. explore our nation's past, american history tv on c-span3, created by america's cable companies. today we are brought to you by these television companies who provide american history tv to viewers as a public service. sunday on the presidency, susan ford bales, daughter of president or for old -- gerald ford, flex on their time in the white house with former abc news white house correspondent and compton. here is a preview. >> let me ask you about this, since you mention it. to me, it is the other most dramatic part about betty ford's time in the white house. women who were diagnosed with breast cancer often kept it quiet, didn't want any attention. it was almost an embarrassment to them.
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and of course, critical often fatal diagnosis. your mother had just stepped into the national spotlight, and she decided that she could help women by treating this as publicly as she did. so you talk to us about that early in the administration? >> yeah. it was an interesting discussion. because she talked to all of us as the family and said, how do you all feel about this? and we are like, it's fine. that is not a big deal. it wasn't a big deal to us as family members. and then when we started reading all of the material of the women who had literally been hiding in closets and had not undressed in front of their husbands for years, and women dying of this disease. and she did not choose to go public because it was going to give her fame or attention or
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