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tv   Tamara Payne The Dead Are Arising  CSPAN  November 26, 2021 10:45pm-11:30pm EST

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optimistic then to despise. >> thank you that's terrific conversation thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you joining us. >> the boston book festival continues now on booktv. >> hi, everyone. it is so good >> hi everyone. is so good to be with you today and connect with you today and then allows all of us to share with this award-winning book and also this award-winning author we are so happy that you can discuss i thought i knew a lot about now connects having
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learned about him in college and graduate school and as i'm reading the book i realize i did not know that. i didn't know that either. and it was so refreshing to not just read about things i did not know but to be reminded about the things that i once learn to be but i'm just so happy people are still writing about him and his legacy continues but no doubt this will continue to spur additional conversations and scholarship to come out of this and so happy to have this intergenerational conversation as well not just with the academy but the high school students as well defined for the first time perhaps who mathematics was and why he was
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so special not just to the black community but to the world and we are so grateful for u the gifts you have given us but we want to jump right in so want to start by asking about your journey so wonderful that you are able to do this with your father pick up the mantle your father left off you talk about the relationship you have with your dad of what inspired you to step dad's work in completed? >> great question. first want to say a very happy to be here and i do wish we all could in there is beautiful weather out there and artemis one of my favorite seasons and also to just jump in me working with my father on this book to be focused on not family it's all about
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families and in thing that that is far as a journey in 1990 so everybody is a resource and is always intrigued about what is new and if we really think about what journalist do heree in america especially they are uncovering and documenting the first version of history as it happensck but all of the events of this year we have to go that far back so this is what were talking about for a very long time this is the first
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line of that documentation so my father was visiting his friend in detroit and had the opportunity to meet one of wealth's brothers and interview them insteadha of course if you hire malcolm that would bede great so he sat down into the field and it went for several hours. he recorded it but then came away running so much that and they said his parents and we think that over the years not come has always been angry but
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now we are putting and the concept of the family from the world he was born into and if we open up the book we open up with where the local chapters from his inre omaha and his father they are organizing for marcus garvey end the white clan members don't like this the people who are running this town don't like this and then to express themselves so that they make threats and i buyhr a house and luckily this is a story we get me here that even the detail because one of
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the t brothers is fascinated by details so we never know when we m never think about these things you know malcolm's on the scene this is what the world is born into and then it comes back to new york and then a very important show and he told them about this interview and my father said but it turns out wilfred was not tom's best friend and also is oldest and was two years older than of them. so he goes back to detroit and
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ask for the interview in the cannot let it go because he is processing and then how he thought himself as a black president or hearing him and how she has a child is important that was so important to the family is the older y siblings that we don't notice about not that we should. we need to see to his humanity and full story didn't even know he had a book on malcolm and also we have his speeches in his own voice.
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and then wes found this out and said this is a poor picture and that is where again the journalism comes in when he first interviewed i was not in the country at the time that i came back was telling about these interviews and i was really impressed and wouldn't stop talking and was really excited and had a really good story here. and then we will do a book about this but then when i came back and he asked me to work with him and i jumped because at the time at that time i was teaching english in they came back but now what do i want to do? i think i'm going to drama
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school that i really want to learn and watch my dad because any the type of journalist he was in wanted him to teach me his craft tried to take a couple years and then led is necessary but i worked with my dad from the beginning when he first had gotten those interviews in the process was in the beginning to get your research that what it is today but in fact the way it was set up we have to go to different campuses or go to wisconsin or
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michigan or lansing to see literature on —- they had. centralized like the newspaper archives it's great what we have now and then still they had a table for you have enough time in one day and then to learn about the process so over time it becomes digitized that that is what we learned about the process to give as much information about malcolm and it's not about other people in your mouth but then they could speak with members of the mcguire family and john davis.
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>> and to see what he became and it is interesting to watch the process so was also about
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processing and having these conversations with myy father so what do we look at where do we goal in one thing i really had to learn when working in journalism that you have to follow where the facts are going but not what you want to provend that it may be going in a direction you don't want it to go but you have to follow you don't h know what you will find down the road and you have too follow that road. it can be going down a lot of rabbit holes because you don't know when it ends that yes. >> there is so much there to think about i am number six so i am part of the youngest but i can have the same experience as my older sister but the way she tells the story completely different than i would because she is older than me and has the experience and the
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knowledge that such a way to tell the story because to talk to his brothers who are older before he was born who had an understanding of that historical context that they lived in or who their parents were just as a deeper level. but a good portion of the book is his household and upbringing and then to bring another voice into the conversation so tellou us your thoughts about the book and what questionsal you have. >> yes i appreciate you being here. reading the book have to agree with the professor because i learned that after the entire
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time and i just kept wanting more and what is the most emotional aspect that if you pick up the research for the book? >>ng the different aspects of the story of what was so emotional? >> i went toay say both to you and otherwise quick. >> a lot of emotions for me because just to have these wonderful conversations supporting and fact-finding. >> he was born 1941 jim crow
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south and his family moved up to connecticut at 12 years old. and connecticut is a different experience going to school because it was integrated in his perspective of what he can do to open his eyes to a lot of things he could experience. he loved art. we started off wanting to be an engineer but then realized that he did not fit in with being an engineer he was very curious about literature and history and sports and art and then seem to be very focused or narrow focus after graduating and then to meet malcolm in connecticut so for
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me emotionally to work with somebody who experienced this firsthand it's history that working with on —- someone who this experience might have talked and talked about how hisis grandmother with the white teenage boys son talked about this from the day he died will never know what will have the same relationship i can relate my understanding my father was saying. there's all kinds of liens of the grew up in hartford and
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you wanted people those found members were friend of our family and we were able to get to them through them and get that story that's a different telling know them in new england organizer. that was exciting and then if you look at the stories of how now come organized and his excitement to listen to the responses it's interesting of how constructive. he was so devoted to the nationhe of islam when he came out of jail. and how committed he was to the teaching and i really want to make the connection that a
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connected back to his childhood with the self-reliance, building your own community building your own businesses. being respectful to your fellow people and supporting each other as a community that is whatng his parents were talking about t so to return to that then he could do that with his other siblings. so learning that these are exciting but then like when he is traveling i was excited and with those ex-pats and donna i know i'm a little over.
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>> there is so much there that to respond exactly that recalling and when my parents got the michigan my mom said i met not the next ones. i said you did? when she said i was eight years old she said yes he came over to our house. [laughter] and with go door to door recruiting people. first my grandfather is an old baptist minister they are going to tito talking religion. but i found myself shot and because that is something that he would do. but there is a lot of things here that i just had no idea
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the founder of the nation of islam and who he was that was a revealing to me and asked to who his identity might be i had no idea garvey or doctor max had secret meetings there were real gems in here that the public does not know the. talk about what you are shocked about the most to uncover this is there anything but for me there are several but also with the part to find
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out the details. >> also the other ministers who met with the clan in atlanta and georgia with them he wants to tell the details of that he knew we are working on this but. so he did open up about those details. so he was also very helpful in understanding how the organization and understood what i mean by that and how do you insert discipline?
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i also just want to jump back. >> but then he gave that speech. so i lied when she told that story that yes. it's important to understand these stories and i encourage people with the journey but even my mom telling me the details about hearing the details of that but these are important stories because they
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directly or may be the reason we w feel the way we do and that is how we come to understand support my me talk about this but being about family and then weer look at her own families and what they are t going to during this time all the times they were going to in this district and nac this across races and we all lived. it's american history the great migration affected everybody not just black people the great depression affected everybody not just black people soldiers fighting the world war even the civil war affected everybody in the directly influenced by these events and we don't know how that affects if we have that
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opportunity b it's important personally and is not enough just to say black people in america because all of them are. and that is a real fact that we needo to understand those differences of how do we do that? when we say learning history and it's hard to learn from past mistakes if you don't use those review thoseou mistakes as yours. but they were made by people in your family living during those times. and the choices that people make and so it shows us and
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then those decisions he wants to have a standoff then he says way to has a plan we have to deal with these people they were in the south they are going to need some kind of communication and malcolm says wait a minute. that's not how this goes but he starts to see malcolm and mohammed have a difference of opinion in the direction black people should go. and when they come from. he was told not south so then
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you see the difference in how they approach is so that's only wasn't about the german children and also how they research discipline and the role of the women in the nation of islam. all of this is important that there are issues with that but there are issues and if you look at that organization look at your organization. >> yes.
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it is complicated. that is the short-term and they are not teachers that multifaceted. they thought about things and nuanced n ways again this is so rich because you can see the fullness of how someone is in the decisions that are being made. so now we'll go to q and a. i love hearing your take on everything. so whilewn writing this book is there any way to have you personal idea either before he became a researcher from writing the novel yourself?
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>> and to understand why it was so important to us there is a reason why was a 1965 and 19631961 still stands today and his analysis when he is sitting the voters right that he talks about that and he talks about the filibuster and how they were using but it'sea interesting to see him talk about that. and it just gave me more information why he is important but not just as a black american that an american. i just want that to be understood. we are american. malcolm is an american.
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i do not feel that any stronger when my dad wrote an essay about when he saw notes ton and he was talking about black people and he was talking about the, so-called negroes and he said i get it. you're not used to being called negro but what does that really mean but black? my father said i was uncomfortable with him calling is black but when he said that it was like lightning strike in his head and then so many things fell into place and they so do in a look at not
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theme but because for our generation especially the later part not only what marcus garvey was trying to do to get the black community to have their own business but then he is supported by the same person who is the head of the fbi then with those infiltrators and then to give them the information but then to take a more aggressive role with his agent. and you see that when he is called on —- when he is killed
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so then they also push it. so it is the same person who is behind marcus garvey supported so look ate these connections. it's important to understand then you can't move forward but then how long they have been active. >> that is so good. >> so now i want to open it up to the questions that are coming in and out in the audience you have a question you are dying to ask the author now is your time get the questions in i want to start from one person who wants to know how did nelson's
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mother impact his development does an activist? i like the way you talked about that relationship can you talked about what about his development. >> yes. actually would like to read a little bit fromf the book if i can. >> yes please. >> so those that may have the buckets on page 73 through 74. i forget which chapter this is. the story of b little black sambo published 1889 by for the standard children's reader.
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and then it cause snickering among whites but with the unrestrained banding about of the term we post the little children and those children that were taught at home to disparage the putdowns of the black race. as a talks escalated it was their mother conditioned malcolm and his siblings not to overreact they didn't like to be called a nigger but they were downplay it. my mother always told us you can handle racial slurs in a way when we make them continue or let them think they are not hurting you. if you are throwing darts at a dartboard there is a satisfaction you get when you target when you miss that you get another feeling.
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it is the same way with the white people. when they throw darts with the things that they say and do. then they won't get that satisfaction and eventually they will quit so that's how it works so this psychological training to racial provocation with the condition and the behavior of young malcolm and then to despite and in some cases because of their audience so she was teaching them but then coming to the united states and then met earl and montréal had a meeting and they fellg in love and where is very attracted
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and then was instilling them she had an educational ready from british guyana and was not college-educated but had primarypr school. but often she would talk to them about the ways of the world and really wanted them to stand up and be proud of who they were and talk about ethiopia and africa. and it turns out that then at the time when the military was illegal but when they were freed but then they were
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raping her and her daughter had a child they ended up raising her daughter she was raised by the grandparents and then she brings is with her into raising her a own children as well as joining the un ia. >> it is a rich history and you can see the way that now come parented and how they taught him was so instrumental in his ideas so what you expect the average person you have your father as a model
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but one of the things can you do to make history come alive? >> to make history come alive so over the years and what the attitudes were and i think that becomes alive for us. >> i highly recommend that. and also the steel chips and going to some of these places when you can walk the steps and go to a museum if there is no layers i will ask one more question might be the lastok
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that i want to know given that this book is so highly acclaimed was so many awards for 20 think with the volumes and volumes pay she has such even part of his life there is still so muchh to say so marriage like the authors to go with his life and to build upon? >> especially with the black lives matter movement and how they are picking up when you look at the language in his speeches and the stories he
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was telling but when malcolm was hustling in the streets and in boston and later in harlem. and then to focus on that at the end of his life he had totally come around on that and was very critical and the islamic world the need to educate women in your country. country can only be as advanced as their women. so there are these things people can look at but then what malcolm when he went to africa you and i go to africa
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we are not necessarily meeting with heads of state that he was meeting with heads of states and free countries. he met with so many. and then to explore what that means. and what comes of those relationships? >> and there is so much scholarship it is endless. but one thing i will say that people would say to me over the years oh another book is coming how do you feel? and i would say i'm not worried. telling that from a different perspective and the discipline is different it is journalism so it is a different approach
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altogether and i think that there are people who are journalist you only want to focus looking at the whole is much as we could and we did that there is still some stuff made didn't want the book to be ason long as it is now. [laughter] >> and then you bring up the women which is so important testament to see how women can expand the's conversations and take these things even further. this is a real testament to how to have a father instilling their daughters no
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limits and how they can engage with the world and father had definitely given you an awesome gift that you are sharing with all of us today. we are just so grateful for what you put into this scholarship. >> and i would say i did meet her. [laughter] so i also want to talk about my family and my mom and my uncle, this is a family story. and not just after my father passed while he was alive.
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and he made it his life's work. and it is him practicing john and his highest form and i am so happy and blessed to be included on this journey that memo family came along. >> thank you so much for the intergenerational family affair thank you for joining in for so many wonderful questions this has been a joy. saturday, his three tv documents america's stories, and on sundays, book tv brings you the latest nonfiction books and authors. funding for "c-span2" comes from these television companies and more, including cox.
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cox is committed to providing eligible families access to affordable internet, through the connect and compete program, bridging the digital divide one connection and engagement at a time. cox, bringing you closer. cox along with these television company support "c-span2" as a public service. >> book tv's coverage of the boston book festival continues. >> my name is la manning from the boston book festival and thank you for joining us for this important conversation about the way our country talks abou >> it from the boston and book festival thank you for joining us the way of the country's health especially alike to think the family foundation for sponsoring the session thank you to everyone who included a donation with ath registered for this free event. thank you for i joining us on c-span booktv. to envision our organization future direction. you can help

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