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tv   Sheryll Cashin White Space Black Hood  CSPAN  November 25, 2021 4:15am-5:14am EST

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maybe some folks took already because i thought -- great. hopefully there's enough, and if there isn't i know that we arranged to send one to you so you get one. >> awesome. >> might not be signed. >> thank you. >> you're welcome. thanks,e
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television for serious readers. >> good eating virtual audience and welcome. thank you for joining us tonight. i name is hillary car and on behalf of harvard book store i'm pleased to introduce this event with sheryll cashin introducing her new book "white space, black hood: opportunity hoarding and segregation in the age of inequality." join the conversation by tomiko brown-nagin. thank you for joining us tonight. virtual events liked and pocketbooks for continuing authors and the work to our community at her new digital community. we will be hosting events honor still account. our event schedule appears on a website@harvard.com/events where you can sign up for our e-mail newsletter. this evenings discussion will conclude with times for your question if you questions at any time click on the q&a button at the bottom of the screen and book it through as many as time allows. this event will also have close caps available depending on the
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version of zoom you can enable the couch itself by clicking on the close caption button on the screen. i'll be posting a link to purchase "white space, black hood" on hover.com is was a link to donate in support of this series and are stored. your purchases make events like tonight possible and help conserve the future of an independent landmark bookstore. thank you for tuning in in support of our authors and incredible staff of booksellers at harvard book store. we appreciate your support now and always. as you may have experienced in virtual gatherings, technical issues may arise. the duke will do our best to resolve them quickly and we thank you in advance for your patience and understanding. now i'm so please introduce tonight speakers. sheryll cashin is a carmack waterhouse professor of law civil rights and social justice at georgetown university, i can to be added for "politico" and an active member of the poverty and race research action council. she is been a law clerk u.s. supreme court justice thurgood marshall's willits and advice on community building in inner-city
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neighborhoods. her work has appeared in numerous outlets including the near times, "washington post," salon among many others and she's author of "new york times" book review editors choice the failure of integration, the naacp image award nominated place not race. tonight professor cashin will join by tomiko brown-nagin, the dean of russian approach for advanced study, professor of constitutional law at harvard law and history in harvard faculty of arts and sciences. she is the author of the book courage, , a dental history of e civil rights movement. we will be discussing "white space, black hood" which is called a resident in for an what's a pension racial division poisoned life and her cities and henry louis gates, jr. called a brilliant and nuanced going on to say convinced the reader of
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this centrality of geography and economic and social inequality. we are so happy to have them both your tonight so without further ado the digital podium is yours. >> thank you thank you . and thank you to the harvard book store for hosting this talk. it is my pleasure to be in conversation with sheryll cashin who has written this, her fifth book. i want to start off, sheryll, by asking you why you decided to write this book? >> part of it as you know is your fault. it was about four years ago, five years ago that i got a call from you asking me if i would like to give the memorial lecture at my alma mater, harvard law school. i was flattered, flabbergasted thinking what will i say at this institution were a lot of my former professors are still on the faculty.
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so it really forced me to think ambitiously like what would be worthy of the occasion? i spent my entire academic career thinking about segregation and was very inspired by michelle alexander's book, "the new jim crow" in the way she connected contemporary mass incarceration to a prior anti-black institution jim crow. but i wanted to see the connection from slavery to jim crow to the iconic segregation black ghettos, black hoods. because it just seemed like it's time we put to bed one black supporting institution we created another, right? so supremacy still manifest, just the structures change and ideology rather changes.
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so that is one reason i wrote because i do find something ambitious to say to my alma mater but the other thing is i happen passion my entire life about come at a get this from a fellow come come from civil rights them in alabama, about low income black people and how they are others in society. how they are treated, not just by whites but even by middle and upper-class, sometimes, well, you get the point. i feel very passionate. i call the folks trapped in high poverty black neighborhoods descendents in recognition of the connection to slavery. they are the two descendents of slavery, and as i said in the introduction, i see them with love, and i wrote this book to humanize them and to advocate for them.
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>> well, sheryll, i have to say election was impressive for a five years ago, and this book is really impressive. it is the total package. you combine historical and legal analysis. you discuss all of the relevant scholarship. and you and and i were in sf the same areas, scholarly areas, so know that scholarship and it really is all in there. and going beyond that you combine storytelling and policy solutions, and you do it all in 200 pages. so it is just a really impressive book, and actually congratulate you on the achievement. >> thank you so much, tamika. that means the world to me. >> now, for those who haven't had a chance to read the book yet, why didn't you go through and give us a brief overview of the argument that you make? >> okay. well, what i'm arguing is that
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racial inequality that you see in american society is best explained by understanding that we have a system of residential caste that produces it, right? we intentionally constructed a fluid white space and the iconic black hood. and the one wouldn't exist without the other. high opportunity, poverty free bastions couldn't exist if we didn't concentrate poverty elsewhere. and these two extremes of residential caste are the most persistent kinds of neighborhoods that we have. in fact, the boundaries of the fluid white space and concentrated black poverty are hardening. those neighborhoods are
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persisting and not going away. there's a lot in between, but what i argue is that everyone in american society who cannot buy their way into affluent white spaces, which also happens, they are emerging to the heavily asian as well, gets a a very different deal when it comes to opportunity. people trapped in the hood get the worst deal. and i'm saying that residential caste is the chief explanation for the structural systemic racism that we have, and i explained, the residential caste in american is animated by three primary anti-black processes. boundary maintenance, which is the polite word for segregation, opportunity hoarding, over investing in affluent white space, this investing elsewhere,
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and stereotype driven surveillance, predatory policing and also private policing of black bodies. so that's the argument of the book. and it also, and i call for and repair of american residential caste. >> yes, thank you. i want to end up on that discussion of abolition, but i would ask about some of your word choices. use the term caste throughout the book as opposed to say racial subordination or marginalization are just plain old racism. and i wonder what to you is the explanatory power of caste as a concept? >> okay. i say residential caste. >> yes. >> there's a very popular book by the same title and the not talking about just social caste. right? but the word is powerful.
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it evokes more than just racism. people who were in high poverty neighborhoods are essentially trapped there. very few people are able to get out. that is a caste system, right? caste also evokes the degree of othering that is attached to folks in the hood, right? the stereotypes. and really nasty stereotypes, super predator, dog, welfare queen, ghetto, right? some of the worst stereotypes of blackness are incubated by, you know, in the hood, i mean are based on a lot of ideas about what goes on there, often generated by people who have no intimate knowledge of black people, right? caste is more powerful than just
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saying racism, you know? and for me caste evokes entrenched structures. >> yes. >> and residential caste is nothing if not structural. the social distinctions that come naturally to human beings become much more efficient when you overlay it with geography, right? those people over there are not worthy of coming to live in my space, right? people come up with reasons to justify the way things are. i have a chapter as you know about mythology, right? i call it ghetto mythology, that the chief mythology animating residential caste is that high opportunity living is earned, and people trapped in low
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poverty areas, that's the deserved result of individual bad behavior. that erases and masks a century of nefarious public policies that systemically create, actually render some neighborhoods devoid of any real opportunity. >> yes. so i think it's an appropriate word, and as you say it's powerful. it gets to the prominence of the situation. being totally devoid of opportunity and trapped is a very powerful word choice. now, you also as you mentioned at the top used the word descendents, and you tell stories about the sentence in every chapter. can you say a bit about why that's a choice for this book?
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>> well, , for me the sentence s a term of affection, of love, of honoring an african-american legacy. the words used to describe black americans, particularly poor black americans, are often, have negative connotations, right? the n-word, debtor, whatever. but i just found it to be, it also evokes the truth that, you know, african-americans emancipated after the civil war were overwhelmingly in the south, right? their descendents became great migrants. actually early great migrants, some of them may have been enslaved by their descendents, lots of them are great migrants. so they go north and south to escape jim crow.
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and what the primary response to black people in large numbers wherever they landed was to contain them and hyper segregated neighborhoods, and to disinvest in those neighborhoods, making them much worse than other places. i guarantee you the folks who live in the hood, i guarantee you that overwhelmingly those folks are descendents of the enslaved. there's a continuum, a direct continuum which i just described. >> that's really important to talk about. not a lot of people do make those connections, and i think it's again a very appropriate term. so -- >> i want to finish the second half of your question. you asked why i featured them in the chapter. thank you for noticing that.
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every chapter opens with, it features a a character or twod i tried to get their picture, a lot of them, i wanted to humanize my people, , black people. we are three-dimensional human beings. many of the people i feature are people who overcame something that inspired me, right? so i've i have photographs. i tell their story, and i do with chronologically. so i make the connection because i have a chapter -- i go from 1890 straight through and i do it really, really fast as you know. we get to the contemporary part quite quickly. but i wanted to humanize, like i said i really wrote this for black people, particularly black americans. and that's very influenced by
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toni morrison in this book of essays. she writes about how, you know, well, first of all whole career she centered the black american experience. and she wrote that for herself, for others. she didn't, i mean she wasn't trying to appeal to any other audience. i wanted to write a book was truly like years the truth about what our people have been through. and she says in the book i just pulled out in one essay, it jumped out at me, that, you know, racial oppression may never go away. it may never change we can write about it. we can tell the truth. that's what i set out to do, to make it clear to myself and my people, all these forces that are set against us and they never seem to stop, right? the more i learn, the angrier i was that i wanted to tell the
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truth about that. you know, i wanted it to be a bit of a viable frankly where people, if you want to understand why it is, here, here. >> yes. can you tell us one of those stories? let's pick a chapter and talk about -- >> okay. so many come to me but ongoing to pick ligia barnett who is a a descendent in the technical sense in that she lives in high poverty black neighborhood in washington, d.c. i interviewed her several times, which were neighborhood. she lives in a very, very poor area in south east d.c. near the
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maryland line. and i got to know her because she was a client of a georgetown law health law clinic, and to meet this woman, she is a dynamo. she's a really impressive person to me. she has a lot of knowledge and and a lot of gumption, and she actually had been metaclass and through some unfortunate circumstances found herself and her family homeless i follow her through the struggle to get some stable housing. she was actually more functional than a lot of people around her in this homeless shelter, and really took advantage of all the services that the georgetown law students provided her. i tried to show how much assistance she needed, and it took a lawsuit because she was discriminate against. she got a housing voucher and
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it's illegal in washington, d.c. to discriminate based on source of income. she had one of those rare, hard to get hud opportunity vouchers. but for georgetown law students helping her serial she got a settlement and putting pressure on housing authority in d.c., which finally, because the housing voucher is good, , you only get like three months or something to get replacement. you know, they finally got some emergency assistance with a putter in a van van and drove her to certain spots. but she started out, someone had told her and i opportunity neighborhoods they take the pouch and then they backed out. so i just showed the struggle, and then trying to get her kids any decent school, and she's ten minutes away from where there's a lot of gun violence.
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this this is a person who han books, you know, who has produced -- she's got this movement of women who have endured all kinds of things with a sort of had a monologue where they do their play. she is just, you know, a striver, right? i could go on, you know, but that's one example. >> yes. well, the storytelling is powerful and it's clear to me and to the audience that you have a lot of passion as well as the scholarly expertise, and that comes through so much in this work. now, i want to go back -- >> did you have a fair of her character? i'm just curious. did anyone joe out at any chance? >> i was attracted to the concept.
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it's something i tried to do as well, tell stories. although, well, i want to go back to something in particular that you just said. you mentioned that this book, you want it to be like a bible, and you said that you wrote it for the african-american community. one of the things you talk about implicitly but also directly in the book is the separation between the descendents and the black middle class and certainly affluent black americans. let's talk about that. so let's talk about the contrast between the progress of the black middle class and those who were trapped in these ghettos. what dilemmas does the black
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middle class face including affluent people, including black officials who control majority black cities? tell us about the dilemmas and how you would recommend trying to resolve some of those dilemmas. >> first i want to make it clear to the audience that i centered the african american experience, but i would welcome anybody reading it, right, but i definitely had african-americans and their experience in mind as i i was writing this. okay. well, you hit the nail on the head. one of the point i'm making is, pre-civil rights we had a a ce system that was just based on race. in the south particularly no matter what your socioeconomic status, you in that caste system, too, right? post-civil rights the good thing
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is there are people who prosper were able to exit the hood. back in the day when it was created, all socioeconomic strata of black people lived together, but the fair housing act opened up opportunities, and most people who could exit high poverty neighborhoods of whatever color do. in fact, the economic segregation is growing fastest among african-americans and latinx people. black and latino 1% on the entire ground. and it does present a dilemma. james performance book, locking up her own, kind of speaks to this. democrats outnumber republicans like 12 the one in the city, and when d.c., , the city i live in, washington, d.c. was chocolate city, overwhelmingly run by black people.
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they pursued mass incarceration, too, right? i have heard words uttered about low income black people that are the same kind of stereotypes that nonblack people participate in, right? in a society that concentrates, concentrates advantage and concentrates disadvantage all people, particularly as you know this, people who are parents, feel pressure to get as close to the high opportunity as they can, right? i lived this in washington, d.c., , right? so the dilemma is distancing yourself from concentrated poverty is, and by the way, concentrated poverty is growing fast in suburbs and its growing fast and white areas, too.
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but distancing yourself from concentrate poverty and concentrated disadvantage becomes necessary to thrive. and so part of the reason -- descendents are worse off than they were before the civil rights revolution because they lost the proximity to our most successful black people, and they lost the sword of their social influence. they lost their tax dollars, , d there's a lot of social distance now. so it is a dilemma. i lived that myself. i put my kids in public charter schools for the first, seven years and each year of their education from first grade through seventh grade, , each yr the poverty rate grew higher. the last year they were in school, 53% of the kids were on free and reduced lunch. i walked the walk as long as it
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worked for my kids, but it began not to work so much. that's the dilemma. >> it is and, of course, it's a dilemma that i'm familiar with myself, and i think this book really, as you said, will help a whole lot of people understand the plight of people who are not descendents and not fall prey to the mythology that affects everyone in this country. so let me ask you about white allies and people of color allies, how they are implicated in the probably identify, what stories are they telling themselves about concentrated poverty, and why should they care about these unique
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circumstances, unique to african-americans? >> okay. well, everybody should care about residential caste is actually it's only working for a very small fraction for those who live in a metropolitan area. only about 7% of the population can buy their way into the highest opportunity places, right? and those places exclude. they have exclusionary zoning. they often won't even have apartments let alone duplexes or quad plexus, right? so they exclude non-rich people, and what a lot of people don't realize is they are actually subsidize by everybody who is excluded. they get golden infrastructure. that's paid for through gas taxes, right? the often get more than their fair share of revenues raised to
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income taxes, in terms of like what the state decides to invest in for development, physical development, right? and so this whole system is destroying opportunity for almost everyone, whether you live in a city or a non-rich suburb, there are a lot of struggling suburbs out there now. or a rural area, america is no longer a land of opportunity for you. it's not an engine of opportunity, right? and we have a politics, cut taxes, cut taxes. biden is trying to change that, but we had a politics that has historically maligned that people trapped in the worst hoods. but that is masking the system, the structures opportunity. it also destroys politics.
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.. >> so many people, we saw this with the social protests after george floyd police
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execution. so many people i think are hungry for something better than toxic fear, a society based onfear, separation . if we followed, my suggestion is to repair, we would stabilize a lot and we would see a lot nicer neighborhoods that are less scary to people and you'd have more opportunity to return to public institutions. right? a lot of high income people, i mean the hyper affluence arealways going to be in their own universes . two parent professionals feel the need to buy the most expensive houses they can afford to get into a good
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school district. or there's a lot of tax dollars for private schools . this is to basically get the opportunity that's stable and good. great, right? so a society that wasn't based on residential caste, that have an attitude of care rather than today's system, not this fear and othering, i think opportunity would be more widely available for everyone. >> that's a great opportunity and insight and essential to our readers. i'm going to turn to audience questions in just a moment, to ask the audience to pose these questions so that i can ask sheryll about what's on your mind but first i want to turn to sheryll's question of what to do about all this?
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there's a chapter that's titled abolition and repair and i wonder if you could share that chapter, what's your vision of what needs to bedone to dismantle and replace residential caste ? >> i want to start by saying that my starting point for this reading was, i'm not the first person to talk about abolition and creating and abolition democracy. my vision really came from them. the language they use. when you use the word abolition you're talking about transformation. i'm not talking about modest record. but the beauty of understanding residential caste is once you understand it and its processing, the way forward becomes obvious. you just reverse those processes. the first thing i say is we need to change the
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relationship of the state from punitive to carry, change the lens in which we see them. but there i say with love. once you see descendents as three-dimensional human beings who are capable of agency and potential assets, it frees you up to focus on and identify evidence-based policies that actually might be cheaper than what we are doing. basically mass incarceration and over policing and more effective. you first got to change the lens but i also say we need to reverse theprocesses . so inclusion rather than exclusion and boundary making . mandatory inclusionary zoning . mandatory affordable housing
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for all neighborhoods. green lightning rather than red light. investing in historically defunded black neighborhoods. the very neighborhoods that were redlined in the 30s and cut off traditional mortgages and investments, to this day our disinvestment in. and distressed. so they should be first in line for new infrastructure dollars if we get some. they should be first in line for community investment, community development dollars . there's in chicago i have this staff. congress spends three times more money in white neighborhoods than black neighborhoods in its development dollars. that's not right. so having a neighborhood analysis and racial equity analysis, paying attention to
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where the money goes and prioritize disrupting the unfair allocation. then third, and this has been in the news so much. i don't profess to have all the answers but we must transform policing from predatory to humane and i offer examples of innovative programs that reduce gun violence dramatically just by focusing on these young people. the relatively small number of young people, their young to me, young men who might actually be likely to pull a trigger or actually are engaged in gun violence and haven't yet been prosecuted. wrapping services around them and giving them a loving mentor and giving them a life plan enrichment as california did. imagine the reduce gun violence. it's a lot cheaper than any
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incarceration. so i give some hopeful examples in the book of places that are doing transformative things. there are things we can do. >> we have a number of questions, good questions and let me ask one. what do you see as the first step for cities, states, entities with power can take to begin dissolving the caste system in the us? >> i think the first system is this sounds very self-serving but i do think it would help to read the book. you have to understand what is going on and how systemic it is. i really identify all the systems that are systemic in black neighborhoods. but i really do believe that the first step is intentionally changing your
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lens first. thinking of people as people, as human beings and potential assets rather than deficits. so that's the first but also a neighborhood analysis at the local level. you should put into your budgeting process in seattle, the twin cities and baltimore are doing this now where do you regularly, annually assess and look at where dollars are being spent and intentionally tried to achieve racial equity. this is what joe biden, i was so inspired within hours of being inaugurated, joe biden signed an executive order calling for a racial equity exercise and put susan right
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in charge, a formidable woman . and basically said we are going to start paying attention to how we are spending in real numbers so much money. just paying attention to this and then intentionally trying to disrupt the process of if we do nothing what tends to happen is affluence people are the squeaky wheel and they get more than their fair share in their region. being over about that. and then you know, there's so many dimensions. but dubois and angela davis talked about abolition is as much about building up as it is about tearing down and you need to repairdemocracy as you go .
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we should grow the multiracial coalition that claims black lives matter and sustain the coalition so you have people who will show up at zoning meetings and say i stand for affordable housing everywhere or who will fight for integrated schools. it's a multi prong thing. there's no silver bullet. >> your discussion reminds me of the prospect of beloved community . that system that was discussed and i think it's quite resonant with what you're saying about starting from low. so sheryll, there are questions about examples. sort of locations, cities that have made real progress. you mentioned richmond
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california, could you give us other examples of cities that have taken the kind of steps that you think are important? >> you might be surprised. louisville kentucky which i feature quite a bit in a chapter on schools was a very segregated neighborhood and segregated in its schools. about 90 percent of students who went to school were black in the city and 90 percent were white and the outlying area. over a twenty-yearperiod , through a series of actions the louisville metro area became much more integrated and built a constituency for people who volunteered. you had majoritarian politics
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in which the majority of people wanted integration . after they got out in their corridor with school segregation they continued their school integration. theyconsolidated the government ,city and county . and residential segregation went down a lot in the area. it went from being a hyper segregated metro area to just being moderately segregated. that is a success. and now they've done a lot of education around what happened in the 30s and why black neighbors in the west and. why they need more resources. despite lately the city is associated with jets, they still have work to go. they have miles to go but
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there went from being hyper segregated to less segregated and they have pretty good jobs with creating and maintaining integrated schools. much better than a lot of other places. a lot of otherplaces in the south , white areas are trying to secede from the school districts. >> i want to go back to the conversation we were having about affluent blacks being a part of an elite base. there's a question about that and it's asking about how people, how individuals can rectify the disconnect of identifying to as a number of elite spaces while trying to strive for abolition of the institutions and structural barriers that allowed some people to thrive both black and white. so there's a dissonance.
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in what we're trying to do's is. and i mean, arguably i'm guilty of it although i live in two stably integrated neighborhoods in the district. the law, i mean a 50 year tradition of black professionals living with whites and jews. and i'm in one. i was in one and now i'm impressed. so i chose integration. this neighborhood i'm in is not economically integrated. it's not far but here's my point. there's more appetite for integrated spaces stably integrated spaces than there are tools and neighborhoods to fill the appetite.
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because of our policies. i'd say yes, it's dissonant but while you're living your life you want to amend your time and treasure to organizations trying tomake life better . you can vote for and support policies that will make life better even if you yourself are not in close proximity to people who are really selfish . >> there's a question that's being asked about your vetting process. asked about what it was like working with your editor and the most interesting part of the question is what did you leave out of the final publication if you can talk about that? >> writing is both a joy for me. it's also, i don't struggle
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... i mean, i've never had writers block. i don't understand that. i enjoy the craft of writing. i go to bed every night reading good writing. i love literature. for me this is my fifth book and my process is when i have an idea i get a book deal with the deadline for submitting the book. i can't write unless i have a deadline. if i've got a deadline i'm very focused and for me, my friend is word count. i write when i got the research done and i'm ready to write. i map it out and i set the goal. when i was young, i'm not young anymore. not giving away my age but when i was younger i would try to bang out 1000 words a day. i can't do that anymore but
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as i was writing this i'd say 500 words a day. some days if i just wasn't feeling it i would say something easy. 300 words a day when you start getting up and doing it , this film about, a documentary about heroine toni morrison. she said she would get up at 5 am. i can't get up that early. i would get up at 6 am and 7 am and tried to get my 500 wordsdone . it's good to say you're going to do a certain number of words and just get to that and in 10days you've got 5000 words . the math just helps. in a month you've got 15,000 words. most books these days are 80 to 100. a lot of them don't wantyou to get too long . what was left out in this book?
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in this book, nothing. i spent a lot of time thinkingabout it . i really did. this book had nothing left out. there was stuff cut in others but does that answer your question? >> as i said at the top it's very well structured. it's a model in so many ways and i'm not surprised to hear you say you didn't leave anythingout . you really did it in a very powerful way. so another question someone wants to know how the bronx is doing in terms of these issues. >> i can't the bronx. i haven't been there. i don't have any specific stopper. i know that the bronx is not what the bronx was. way back in the day. there's been an extraordinary
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amount of redevelopment since reagan. this was the south bronx reagan went to but i wish i could it but i don't have any firsthand knowledge . i will say in coda to the previous question, i have a degree in election engineering and i definitely, you said you were talking about how powerful it is in terms you laid out. it's the engineer in me that built the argument. each chapter builds on the other and builds on the other . so i've melded the passports of the country with just sort of a scientific system. >> i definitely can see it. there's a question about whether your book is in dialogue with race for
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profit, how the banks and real estate industry undermine black homeownership . i've cited in the chapter on opportunity and i commend to you. it's shocking how much whatever black wealth we had in housing has been taken, stolen from black people. through predatory lending, through these installment contracts which are have resurfaced. tommy c coates writes about it in the case for reparation how black people were preyed on installment contracts in the 60s where it's like you're buying a house on layaway and you don't get any equity until you make thevery last payment . but private equity funds after the foreclosure price in 2008, 2010 have prayed in the very neighborhoods that
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suffered the most for their foreclosure prices because they were preyed on with pet predatory loans. upfront loans. they're going in there and they've been snapping up foreclosed houses but they might pay 5000 for it and turn it around . then sell it for 30,000 with an installment contract which is designed to fail. they want installment buyers to miss payments. they want you to fail and what do they do? they turn it up and it to another person so they are transferring hard earned dollars from essential workers tighten. and i learned this stuff in part from the book. as animated i am, it makes me angry. descendents can't win even when they're trying to win .
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>> cheryl, let me go back to the bronx. there is a person who notes that the bronx is majority latino and the question is whether or what the key differences are between the black experience and the latino experience. of courseas some people who are both .>> the key difference is that black people i told you the story about the great migrants. before like the 1990s i'd say. let's say 1980s. black people were the only population of that singled out for hyper segregation. right? latinos were moderately segregated. before, this is matthew's book american apartheid. at one point, in the 20th
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century there were nearly 50 hyper segregated cities in this country . and all of them were places where the great migrants ended up in large numbers . so the segregationist is a defining feature of the african-american experience and it continuesto have consequence to this day . coates writes about this in the case for reparation. it's an atlantic magazine. for african-americans making $100,000 tends to live in a neighborhood with the accoutrements and amenities of what whites making $40,000 get. so but as the hispanic population grew with immigration, there is like
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some areas in new york and la where some hispanics became hyper separate. but it's not the defining feature. the defining feature of oppression for latino people i would say is this sort of anti-immigrantrhetoric . donald trump, the things he said about mexicans. so you know, i say that both in the beginning, the intercept of this book and i say in the conclusion i want to make it clear i'm not saying other groups have not experienced oppression. i'm not saying they don't experience it now. i'm writing about residential caste and residential caste is constructed based on anti-black animus that continues. >> so it's unique, not that
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other groups haven't suffered and continueto suffer . >> i make that clear. >> you do. it's time for the last question now and it is a question about asking if you have any hope. it seems so bad sometimes. it seems like there's no way forward, what keeps you going ? >> hope is a choice. we're in a tough time and overlaying a pandemic with this residential caste, there's a reason why there's disproportionate death in black and latinx communities. we had talked about this but residents caste causes health disparities.
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optimism is a choice. my feeling is the forces of darkness in this country and there's a lot of forces of darkness. once you see this you will get up and try to fight for anything different. and we talk about some spending scenarios or some localities and places are making for something different. we have to have hope and have to keeptrying . because if we give up and don't try, it's just going to get moreof the same . >> i think the chapter when you talk about abolition is very hopeful. and i thank you again for writing the book and i'm going to send it back over to hillary atthe harvard bookstore . >> thank you so much for doing this.
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>> thank you both actually, this is really wonderful and thank you to our audience out there for spending your evening with us . purchase white space, black hood on harvard.com..♪
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♪ now journalism professor ♪ ♪ nikki usher offers her♪ ♪ thoughts on the challenges ♪ ♪ facing american journalism ♪ ♪ .♪ ♪ >> i'm very lynn and ♪ ♪ executive director of over ♪ ♪ market institute and i'm ♪ ♪ one of the founders of the ♪ ♪ center for journalismand ♪ ♪ liberty .♪ ♪ we lost see gao in late 19 ♪ ♪ as part of the research ♪ ♪ network to focus on ♪ ♪ identifying and ♪ ♪ establishing market ♪ ♪ structures that will ♪ ♪ ensure the full ♪ ♪ independence and ♪ ♪ robustness of american ♪ ♪ journalism in thedigital ♪ ♪ age .♪ ♪ i'm truly thrilled today ♪ ♪ to be able to introduce ♪ ♪ nikki usher who is a ♪

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