tv George Gilder Gaming AI CSPAN November 23, 2021 8:01pm-9:04pm EST
>> weekends are an intellectual feast. we document america's stories. and then we bring you the latest in nonfiction books as well as authors. funding comes from these television companies and more. >> we are partnering to create wifi enabled listings. so students can get the tools that they need to be ready for everything. >> comcast in these television companies support c-span2 is a public service. >> some people say that artificial intelligence is going to make the human rights solution and people don't always want to think about ai and artificial intelligence, it's kind of an intimidating subject. but as you know, the thing about it is that even if you don't want to think about it, it is thinking about you. or is it.
well, that's kind of the question on t this episode of independent conversations. greetings, everyone. i'm coming to youou from the independent institute here in oakland, california. we tried to discuss topics of the day. giving you a perspective that you are not likely to hear elsewhere. today we are going to be talking with george gilder. welcome to independent conversations. you.ank >> is a pleasure to see you again. >> i met george and i think it was in the winter in january of 1982 in western new york and you had recently published a book in 1981? >> 1980. >> okay, okay.
1980. and i think that president reagan loved the book of i remember hearing it atga some point. >> he wrote many letters about it before publication including articles as well. it was all over the place before came out. >> welcome it was very interesting in thiss book. so-called capitalism. , that was the exchange thing along the a native american tribes. >> there's a whole bunch of different ways. >> simply giving and sharing.
was having a lot of tussles with my peers and professors that thought that socialism was the coolest thing there ever was and portray capitalism but it was great and i worry that sometimes you feel like a sociologist and then other people say that you're a technologist and a futurist. >> i have no idea why but i'm willing to play the role and it
is very helpful to have those philosophical perspective and that allows you to transcend this analysis especially when it comes toat specialization. many of them an expression that exacerbates this presentation of knowledge. >> is always characterized by the integration and i think that has driven me to be one of the tcofounders. >> they seem to have quite a science here.
>> i agree with you on that. if our viewers want information about that, where should they go, george? >> cause of the technology. >> that is the subject? >> yes. >> you can go there to find out more than you said it's going on in november. >> yes, november 10 on november november 12. >> okay, great. in the meanwhile the publication date is officially october 15 if i'm not mistaken. but here is the title. to think and transform jobs, you
have some good artists work in your future. >> thank you. >> i also noticed if you want to go to amazon you can order it already and so that is why you've gotten something stuck. >> i was a utterly fascinated by the way that we take up the standard challenge the term in a direction that people don't expect. some people think that it's going to be part of the human race and i think on page 20 of the book it's a very arresting quote. pronouncing the development could spell the end of the human race.
>> elon musk who is alive today. [inaudible] he understands this as much as me. and a lot of people talk about this and this has really predicted things way back at the park and also in college. and he just said that once they ban artificial intelligence, they'll be the last invention that you will ever have to make because a true artificial intelligence would be capable of creatingen things that are
performed other artificialnd intelligence and that includes intelligence throughout the universe. >> the theory was culminating in thisca singularity and that his words was to take us where we left off and says goodbye to us. >> yes,. [inaudible] many people have developed this and it's very sophisticated and away. >> oh, really, i thought he was from siliconon valley? 2 no, it was always a technology
and development bear with their response and responding to this that anticipates how you are going to respond. >> i notice those responses are getting more courteous and more specific and i suppose that that is part of development. >> that's a lot of contributions of technology and the decades. and they have gotten the fundamental principles of thepl computer science. >> that is what is striking is that you don't seem to be as much as a doomsayer as some. and you seem to think that the
potential of ai could be oval sold but even in the overselling there could be some collateral damage and your trying to avoid that. have i got that right umax. >> yes, i think that is right. and the idea that somehow it competes with human minds of fundamental illusion. >> a lot of these technology creators can see their work having already absorbed the idea that the human mind is nothing more than a machine and so if they knew that to begin with then it's not surprising the conception ofg artificial intelligence could be a singularity thing because the human mind was never anything more than this to begin with and i think your point of the history of technology is that it demonstrates that it must be
more than electrons. >> i've been talking about the internet since thehe late '80s, and its development and launch of everything and things that have gone on around the globe. then connect homes. how do they make that mapping of all the connections of the global internet. in the connect homes has been going on in a couple years ago, takes a lot to map and that includes all the connections of the global internet.
>> remind me what that is? >> just imagine the imagination that goes into things behindma this. and on my two campaigns there's been trying to map the connections in the human brain and this has been really part of it. >> well, that is the question is that they start with the nematode, the first one and then a friend of mine was talking about developing these codes as well and we thought that the code was part of this.
for some 20 years they were part of this and last year at thanksgiving they told me that the more he studies the connection in c the home, they o the other way. but the folks from m.i.t. are taking and that includes one's private to the brain and connections it turns out that it takes a couple of that to map the connection in the brain.
>> i am at 98.6 degrees fahrenheit and so it really is, i believe the technology functions and expands the human capability rather than competing with the human capability and that includes companies in silicon valley to revise their business plan and contributors as well. >> yes, that is how they approach it and then they are going to make themselves superfluous. they seem to anticipate that. so if you proceed in business on the assumption, you're going to
run out of things to do if that is your business model. >> yes, i think it's quite absurd.hi inc think technology is continug to advance in the tremendous place. i don't bank that it's advancing any more rapidly than at the time of the industrial revolution. and i think that there was an economist named lord house, he did the study of the advance and there is now part of this.
and that includes the advances of the computer and that includes the paramount figure and then also what we have today and this was the first then we can imagine that this operates at various instances. >> steppingec back a couple ste. really something that deserves the extra attention. you come in and moments ago technological and economic demands tend to have a comparatively greater impact of benefit. for those of the warsaw.
in traveling around some of the rural areas not harder. and it's very striking to me the standard of living, much lower than the united states and i sau many people, not having sufficient coverings and people are clearly struggling although there's a lot of economic activity. at the same time, every a single person sitting under this corrugated tin roof and that includes those that have a cell phone.
and that includes identifying the industrial revolution and that includes those that talk to them anytime they want to and because everyone even in the villages have a cell phone and they are also using it as payment in exchange. simply monetizing these transactions and was quite interesting. and then you are proud to be a northern california and. >> you are correct about that. and it's really what is part of
this. and that includes the result coming back. and whatever is the crime of the moment. inequality standards. and if you score it for a thousand dollars, that takes care of all of your this and you live aou lot better that includs if you have a smart phone and that access to medical care and ultimately civilization
manifesting and so do so-called wells is really knowledge, it's invested in some of it disappears.it and that includes what you give away. and that is because that standard is providing jobs and opportunities for others and it loses value asrs well. so this is really a fundamental principle. and it's manifested today as we
saw. >> we have a number of people on the bus, george. simultaneously. in one of our current participants sent a note to comment that an organization or company said to lara technologies is a part of it. >> how do you spell it? >> actually i have heard of a technology company. it was by the same name. and it is a great deal of immigration and not just a
thumbnail and somehow i can't than that we are going to talkf about it it will tell us which company that is. >> okay, on the comments. we will see. one of the great arguments in the b book. >> those in the high tech industries who are perhaps captivated which is a much nicer word with this idea of moving towards singularity where the creative intelligence surpasses the human mind and makes it obsolete in some cases. they seem to argue to have
forgotten the history of their own industry. >> yes, that is right. >> can you tell me something about that in a way that i can understand not. >> it illustrates your point about your point about the creativity of the human mind. >> yes, the great figure that i know who's completely self-sufficient. he is a young man that had a great deal of knowledge that he was part of a coherent system. and he met this one individual,
the inventor of the computer client and now is in what i believe was 1931 and showing that mathematics was dependent upon action and they couldn't be proven within themselves. so it cannot be a self-contained system. >> yes, in the greatest mind, one that we have produced in the last couple of centuries. the only one that really understood. and he not only saw that this
man what was going on, also what was necessarily independent outside with programmers and oracles and the like and that includes the inventor that currently dominates the lives and one thing i was going to tell you about is the oracle and so at this point, by the way, knowing computer architecture that still runs most of the system. but it is also a parallel to
this and the process and taking over. and it was also invented by him as well. and the other thing is the artificial intelligence or competes with them and that was the expression. >> it actually is an extension but not a replacement. >> what you said a moment ago tell me who it was, all the developed machinery and intelligence would have to have a human line as if it were an
oracle includes a very striking metaphor to put it inmp simple t interesting terms, we are arguing about machine intelligence. what does oracle was thought to be to a man of antiquity. a form of knowledge was seriously outside the realm of grasping. and they thought that they were receiving some insight, which they could notot possibly get d so in turn it is to artificial intelligence from that day. so it is a fascinatingen metaph.
>> yes, ultimately it is an extension that all information cannot be binary. if itt is binary that is restrictive when there is no necessary connection other than mathematica. and objects such as objects of the world. in order to connect this they have a conscious humanat brain. >> it's sort of like two dimensions versus three dimensions. >> yes, that is right.
>> exactly. and they have a bit of that prevailing as well. they imagine that they can play games a lot better than. and so on the board they have these in those stones are symbols and they don't point the on the board and that includes billions of times faster than they can play better than that as well. >> it looks like a man rushing would be superseded by a russian
machine. >> that's right. >> okay, so you say early on in the book that you have two basic claims, this notion of sort of a supremacy of artificialci intelligence and so dealing with this part and i find it reassuring to learn more about this that the human mind actually is more complex than maybe the entire world. that is reassuring. i'm glad that there is some evidence that my mind is more than just something with electrons pulsing through it. but this view rising to a supremacy over everything, could it be self-defeating in what
could it undermine in the way that these guys are thinking about it? >> they have reached out to replace their customers and the necessary complement. there is commuter technology that they are creating, which is an expression of the human analogy and a motion and the ability to have a projection and to imagine it as well. and that is part of it. and, you know, everybody in this way. reinvented as well and i don't
part of this that clears the tensions of the real world and the symbols to express it as well. and so we now have the illusion and i wrote a book about quantum computers. >> what was that called? >> that was called microcosm in 1990. before that it was part of technology. and of course they describe it in its history based on manipulating matters from the inside and that includes with quantum principles. and so all the technology and
all of the computer technology is based upon quantum physics. and it's all part of it. and the part of it is connecting the system to the real world. and what a quantum computer does the binary logic that builds of salvation of computers, which are more complex to analyze the systems and so the quantum
computers are really an analog computer. analog computing was part of the computing and faster and more capacious and it didn't cause problems more so than the real world though because the analog computers making a model of the world and the details and the mapping of the territory as well is a part of it with the computer. so the analog computers, to
their effect imposing the whole burden of programming and the problems that move into the analog where it incurs all the complexqu uncertainties and schrödinger is. >> okay,an so the human mind sot of set up the systems which can then be run artificially. so what that system can do is imagine and create systems that are outside of the court system to be able to transcend these
systems and introduce new angles. which is what generates and powers the creativity. so if those in charge deprecate the wool of creativity, they could end up putting their own enterprise on the road if not failure, let's creativity. is that right? >> yes, and i think that the creativity always comes as a surprise to us. >> i hope your colleagues across the bay here on the other side of san francisco or that and i heard that they pay attention to you because if not, if you are right, it could be that they are overtaken and creativity because we will be deprecating the very
qualities which seems like it would be a terrible thing. they should pay attention with judge. >> that convey attention than their own ministry and pay attention as well to this as well in the human mind is a product of random fluctuations of molecules and that includes that the human mind is the product of evolutionary importance and forces. >> yes, that is correct. and they can duplicate their lives within this period and the
mind is almost more complex than what is there today. so those of us that are there, that includes being friends of the creative technological enterprise, we would encourage the colleagues not to underestimate their own lines by buying into this ridiculous idea that the mind is nothing but a random set of physical mechanics? >> correct? so this is your immediate perspective here. okay, highly recommended, related to gaming artificial intelligence. and i'm looking at the messages coming from a viewer right now. so following what i just said
and what you said about this, the effects about this believe in this faith that the mind is nothing other than accidental material, mechanical and physical. the person said the simplest of persons is still more complex and it's kind of hard to say that there is no god. it does with this person says. >> i think that is a good point. but i have another point, you try this on. and this thought really struck me which is that there is and there always has been something that includes this opposition of a mindset that is empirical in nature and a mindset that is spiritual and highest in nature. and so i think that is why people's talk about science beig in each other's way.
there's something in that. there is a spiritual and devotional attitude about the singularity which could form this with religion, which is in the way of actual scientific activity. this is a replay and an unexpected form, or is it. i'm thinking it's a replay but the roles are reversed because of people who are all that are there in the forms of singularity. they areth so committed that thy seem to close off their ability to be receptive to data. >> at the very true reality and
there's a number off good books. and he says that ai makes you stupid, that's what he said. >> okay, that is your point. >> very intriguing. here is another comment with one of our viewers who is on what does i not this time. this person says let's hear something about the implications , drone technology, for example. >> i know that -- and i mean, computers, a lot of it is based upon computer systems and that
includes we can find them immersed in computation which is a part of the manhattan project and it's what makes the crucial observation where you are building technology to better respond to reality because reality cannot be fooled. the reality is that they are completely dependent upon human lives than the idea that they somehow shuffled us is a religious belief and it is a particularly surprise to what they have going on here.
>> that was my point. >> that religious belief actually means that there's national security danger and employing artificial intelligence on the assumption. >> yes, yes. >> they are advancing them out was pretty disturbing. >> that includes some that are part of this. >> yeah, that is disturbing. [inaudible] i think that it's great.
the evolution of the computer poses no threat to human beings and it's the idea that it's comparable to things like scnuclear weapons. and that includes so that they can be apartment as well. the law in order in the federalization that keeps it alive and imagining that our whole civilization is a product of a mutation of chemistry and physics. and it is that universe very.
they don't necessarily believe that there' something special about mothers and children. and they are the ones creating this. that stems to all of it. >> it depends upon law and order, creativity and that is the foundation of human progress and civilization and human progress. >> and understanding that this is not as people think as obstacles.
>> yes. >> i agree with that proposition >> including the individual called the savior of science author, before all this began to happen. we have another additional comment. and another individual who is a friend of mine. she wrote in saying moral and ethical checks and balances. >> it is consciousness that is part of the program.
and it's not as if the program is part of the moral conscience. [inaudible] someone named jacob has written during the broadcast thing that iit would like george and provie insight into the future as to what it looked like in 10 years and 30 years. >> he's talking about the information driven economics
and that is all constrained by the passage of time. and in the future dash back and unless it's going to be more of this generation, they've got to surprise us. so we are going to live in a world that is almost incomprehensible in some ways, especially from the world that we live in and we were main produce, it's brand-new in this age.
universe, thank you. seso grateful for you taking the time. thank you for writing the book and letting the earlier book, life after google, which i recommend, and thank you for being a friend of the institute. we are thankful for that. >> you've been critical to the development of this place and many other creative places. we refer friends to our friends at the seattle discovery institute, and again thanks to george and everyone who joined us for today's independent conversation from the independent institute here in oakland, california. have a great day and please,