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tv   George Gilder Gaming AI  CSPAN  November 23, 2021 2:01pm-3:05pm EST

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2022. students across the country are giving a behind-the-scenes look as they put # student camp. middle or high school student, you can join the conversation by entering the c-span student camp competition. create a five to six minute documentary using that answers the question, how does the federal government impact your life? >> express your views no matter how large or small you think the audience will receive it and no in the greatest country and history does matter. >> the content is king. remember to be as neutral and impartial as possible on both sides of an issue. >> c-span awards, $100,000 in total cash prizes and a shot at winning the grand prize of
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$5000. entries must be received before january 20, 2022. for competition rules, tutorials or how to get started, is it student cannot work. >> some people say artificial intelligence will make the human race obsolete. a lot of people don't want to think about a i artificial intelligence. even if you don't want to think about, it's thinking about you. or is it? the question we are discussing on this episode of independent conversations, greetings everyone whose join us. i'm coming from the insert independent institute in oakland california. we try and bring noticeable experts to discuss topics of the day and giving a perspective you are not likely to hear elsewhere. today we're going to talklk with george gilder, george wielder.
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hi, george. it's a pleasure to see you again. i met you first i think in the winter of maybe january 1982 in western new york and you recently published wealth and poverty like the year beforety i think. was it published in 1981? >> 1980. >> okay, 1980. i think president reagan left the book if i remember correctly, did you hear that story? >> there is a publication, he read articles but it was all over the place before it came out. [laughter]
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>> it was a fabulous book. your creativity and seeing what others didn't see, so called capitalism and you analogized it, was the exchange amongst the native american tribes? >> there is a whole bunch -- >> it was simply give ando share which was fascinating. he pointed out a lot of that in what we call capitalism which doesn't pivot simply on self interest but rather a kin to benevolent, thousand eye-opener to me, thank you. >> i enjoyed it and i've been doing it ever since. technology books early spring
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from wealth and poverty which focused on creativity and economic growth. i've been working on the information for a while. >> i remember the term are trying to remember a moment ago, i think you described it as the potlatch. >> yes. >> that is amazing it helps me because i was a college student just after being a college student at the time and i was having tussles with my peers and pressures who thought socialism was the cost think there ever was and they usually portrayed capitalism and distorted terms and say you gave me a new vocabulary so people who are an economist but then youe see your sociologist because men and
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marriage and then others sayha u are a technologist in the futurist, what are you? >> i am a historian. but i am playing the role of -- >> well, we are glad. >> it's helpful to have a philosophicale perspective that unifies all. that transcends the analysis so everybody has their own special.
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there's an expression that exacerbates it. >> they really do and your work has been characterized by the integration rather than fragmentation which makes sense. i think it must have driven you to one of the cofounders of the discovery in seattle. a synthetic understanding of the science, is that right?s >> that's what we try to do, bring the two sides together and economics is just another part of biology which is another part. they were expounded upon.
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artificial intelligence and it's going to be expounded on crypto currencies and others and other technological advances. we were very much on china, i don't think war with china brings any benefits i can imagine. >> i agree with you on that. it's less productive been a war with china. good grief. if our viewers want information about that conference, where should they go? >> cause him dark technology. >> .technology? >> that's right.
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>> you can go there to find out about the conference going on, november? >> november tenth -- 12th. >> great. so in the meanwhile, you are releasing a brand-new book, i think the publication date is officially october 15 if i'm not mistaken but here's our title, the cover of it can't think the can transform jobs. very nice and compelling cover. i also noticed if you want to go to amazon, you can order it already. they've got some in stock it lookst like. >> not for a while. >> so that's why they have some in stock. let's talk about the book, i've got a copy of it. i was utterly fascinated by the
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way you take up the standard challenge and kind of turn in the direction people don't expect. the standard challenge youe mentioned earlier in the book some people think a.i. is going to be for sure the motion of human race and i think page 20 of the book, a quote caught my eye were you quoted stephen hawking who pronounced the development of artificial intelligent spell the end of the human race. >> elon musk was alive today said a.i. is more and a lot of people talk about more to come and it's predicted.
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john good, he said once we have artificial intelligence, is the last invention will ever have to make because a true artificial intelligence would be capable of creating a machine to outperform the original artificial intelligence and intelligence in the universe -- >> it would culminate in this singularity which is supposed to be basically artificial intelligence takes up where we left off and says goodbye to us,
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right? >> that's really what it is producing. a lot of people have developed the idea in a sophisticated way, a friend of mine -- >> i thought he was with l silin valley. >> it was technology that developed a.i. that response to an e-mail, responding to, they anticipate how they respond. >> i noticed the responses in the beginning were more courteous or specific as opposed due to the development.
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>> that is his contribution. the whole contribution since technology but i think all these people have forgotten the fundamental principle of computer science has been expound. >> that is what's striking about the book because you don't seeme to be as much of it doomsayers as some. in fact, you seem to think the potential of a.i. may be oversold but even inn the overselling, there could be collateral damage and you are trying to avoid that, have i got that right? >> i think that's right. the idea that somehow a.i. competes with human minds, a fundamental illusion. >> a lot of these technology creators, they came to their
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work having already absorbed the idea that the human mind is nothing more than a meat machine so if they knew that to begin with, b and it's not surprising artificial intelligence would be this singularity thing that transcends the human mind because the human mind was nothing more than meat and electrons to begin with than we could surpass it but i think what you're saying about theut history of technology is the human mind demonstrates it must be more than meat and electrons. >> when i was writing on the development, around the globe,
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connect homes, a layer of the connections and the connect home for the global internet a couple of years ago, if you don't have all the connections -- >> remind me -- that is 21 -- 210. the imagination. mit campaign has been trying to map all the connections of the human brain.
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it's been really difficult. >> how many does not take? >> well, that is the question. a friend of mine who developed dna codes, dna is the code and worked up with the code would be. he's been mapping a brain of a warm for some 20 years at the university of wisconsin. thanksgiving dinner last year, he said the more he studies that connects, the more on the brain
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but taken the developments and connections with the warm and applied it to the brain of a human being and there are connections at all times and it turns out it takes a couple of bytes to have all the connections of the human brain so suggests that a single human life,, brain, is as densely and complex as the old global internet is. the global internet takes lots of energy the has to be next to
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a glacier to deal with the heat problems and dominic technology and the cooling system, to take away their heat. >> i don't seem -- >> twelve to 14-watt. >> 98.6 degrees'm fahrenheit, extra clothing. >> so i believe that technology extends human capabilities
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rather than attempting to compete with human capabilities. companies in silicon valley have a business plan for their customers and contributors are going to fail. >> that's how they approach it, then they will make themselves superfluous. if they anticipate that, if you proceed in business on the assumption their job is to make your own customers to for the purpose you want to run out of things to do if that is your business model, aren't you? >> i think it is absurd. i thinkli technology continually advances out of tremendous pace but i don't think it's advancing anymore rapidly been at the time
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of the industrial revolution. i think the economist really ignored. there's a study, the amount you need and it shows that advancement biting, there is been 100,000 times more rapid than measured. essentially, economists about dark satanic mills. >> blake
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. >> yeah, it all runs through. there incredible expansion from the time of the millions of candles, vital electricity and whatever it was.d but by the amount of time the worker was to eliminate it, economic progress with 100,000 times more rapid than usually estimated. t so we were missing industrial
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revolution and a.i. revolution would be. >> that is fascinating. >> and measured by the number of hours it takes a worker to earn the money, the services, it continues with technological progress and was increasing inequality because poor people
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benefit more from expansion to do what they are saying. already a few minutes to earn it. technologys, advancements, that benefits the masses most and a.i. is just the means. the advancement of the industry, john who was probably anticipating the gigahertz that we have today, he was the first
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to imagine more that we could really produce machines that operated at various cycles. >> let me step back a couple of steps to something you said a minute ago really deserves extra attention. you comment on a moment ago that technological and economic advances tend to have a comparatively greater impact of benefit to the words off because the worse off have further to go up so the comparative improvement in their life can be greater, that is intriguing. i was in east africa a few years ago in uganda traveling around kampala and rural areas in that part of uganda. it was striking to me the standard ofd living is obviously much lower than the united states and i saw many people living in huts not having sufficient clothing or covering
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from the c rain. people clearly were struggling although there's a lot of economic activity and at the same time, every single person sitting under every insufficiently corrugated tin roof on every little shop on every littlen alleyway had a cel phone. [laughter] >> increasing smart phones. there supercomputer. that means an underestimation of the standard of living. the same of 100,000 identify the industrial revolution with the expansion of life. it's another form of expansion of life. >> i imagined roads needed to be repaved still but i we always
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also realized they could now talk to their grandma or great grandma in the backcountry anytime they want to because everyone even in the small villages have cell phones and using smart phones as a medium of payment and exchange, simplifying monetaryup transactions it was quite stunning maybe proud to be on northern california. >> it is really what's bizarre is the argument yourg would seea lot of places. stagnation of technology
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if you score $1000, it takes care of all of your a central needs and it's a lot better if you have but smart phone and access to medical care and ultimately access to a whole civilization where it manifests. so-called wealth is infested, it's not liquid. if they liquidated, and capitalism is to give away.
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they've invested into working, providing jobs and opportunities for others, you lose value and ultimately disappear. so it's a fundamental principle of capitalism. phenomenal creativity you saw. >> we have a number of people on with us simultaneously although we may share this recording but one of our current participants sent a little note in commenting an organization or company called solaris technology in san jose is a good example of the kind of thing you're talking about.
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>> i have heard of it. the more formidable accomplishment, it is integration of a.i. and capabilities on a single chip. trillions of transistors and somehow, i can't remember what it does -- >> something good apparently. >> if we are going to talk about it, you have to tell us what
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company that is. >> i'm watching the comments box, we will see. one of the great arguments in the book, gaming a.i., those in the high-tech industries who are obsessed maybe, or maybe captivated is a nicer word with this idea of a singularity for the creative intelligence surpasses human mind and makes the humanan mind obsolete. they've seen you argue, they've forgotten the history of their own industry it seems. can you tell me something about that a in a way that i could understand? how does the development of high-tech a industry illustrate about the reversible need for creativity of the human mind? can you tell me about that?
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>> he imagined you could make completely, to render mathematics, completely self-sufficient in a coherent system. he met this young student who i believe are the computer experts of our day. in 1931 i believe introduced a paper that showed mathematics was depended on action that
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couldn't be proven in the system itself. >> so therefore couldn't be a fully contained system. >> the couldn't be a fully contained system. the greatest lines produced over the last couple of centuries. he immediately concluded was the only one who had this paper. he not only saw this meant the thinking machine would be necessarily the pendant on outside programmers or articles and when they asked alan the universal computer architecture
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that they dominate our lives, he said, one thing i haven't said as there can't be a machine. so the computer architecture that runs both of our systems but the new architecture that originated with graphics processes and has taken over and it was also embedded by him so it was by him. we understood the artificial intelligence to not compete with
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human minds, it was a necessary expression of the capability for human minds, they extended into thes world. >> it is an extension, not a replacement. what you said. a moment ago is a way of capturing it, tell me again who it was who said that all the developed machine intelligence have to have a human mind as if it were an article, who said that? >> that was alan. >> okay so it's a striking metaphor because it means to put simple, arguing minds are machine intelligence, what was thought to be to the men of
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antiquity, a form of knowledge mysteriously outside the realm of grasping. >> there's probably a bunch of hooley but they would go there and cap they were receiving insight from which the couldn't possibly get from outside human minds of the human mind artificial intelligence the way it was to humans of that day. it's a fascinating metaphor. >> inand ultimately an extension of sanders that all information can't be binary. if it's binary, it's restricted in the systems.
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there is no necessary connection between that and the mathematics. the objects of both worlds. in order to connect a system in the rural world, you need an animated mind, a shift to human brain. >> it's sort of like to dimension verses three dimension. >> that's right. exactly. a flat university society in silicon valley, binary symbols which can play games better than us. there are black and gray, white and gray stones and the stones
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are symbols and they don't show beyond the board. if you have a computer, they can move billions of times faster than a human can. obviously they can play better than a human. >> i think you're saying a man is going to be superseded by a threshing machine. a man with a single side of that doesn't mean the machine is more sophisticated than the man. >> that's right. >> you say early on in the book and you repeated in a few places that you have two basic claims notion of sort of supremacy of artificial intelligence and both don and self defeating. i find it reassuring to learn from you and your book and other
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sources that the human mind is more complex and maybe the entire world internet system,ur that is reassuring. i'm glad to know maybe there's evidence but my mind is more than just a meat machine with electronics pulsing threat. so maybe it is done but the trouble is, could this view of artificial intelligence rise to a supremacy over everything, could it be self-defeating? gets mistaken but how could it be self-defeating? to think about the way they are thinking about it? >> they try replay and necessary complements. computer technologies they are creating as an expression in human imagination to have
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counterfactual projection and to imagine what doesn't already exist or if not already in the program. that is the human heart. everybody decades ago, a diagnostic machine was invented, maybe it was a general medical, i don't know but the idea was the machine and artificial intelligence was with human diagnostician and symbols
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prepared, once you put all the input in and it's tagged correctly, and an algorithm can function with cycles and produce an answer. much of the intelligence when the textures of the real world and assembles the express within the machine and we now have the illusion of quantum computer. i wrote a book about quantum confusion. that was called microcosm and
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that was in 1990, 89. microcosm is called quote the end of course it's quantum, which microcosms described in its history based on manipulatingom matter in accordance with quantum principles so all technology, computer technology based on quantum physics, the microcosms and manner cozzens, whatever. [laughter] the problem is connecting the system, what they quantum
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computer does is abandon the binary, logic for the salvation of computers and more complex analog systems. quantum computing is the analog computer. analog computing was displaced by liberal computing not because analog computing wasn't faster and more closely with the real
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world but because an analog computing of the world takes endless details, mapping of the territories and textures of existence t on the computer. so analog computing, quantum computing imposes the whole burden on the human minds -- the problem from background into the analog realm where it incurs quantum uncertainties in the
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quantum world. >> the human mind, again lehmans, human minds and set up systems that can then maybe run artificially better than the human brain can runem them but what they can do is imagine and create systems outside of that system in theou human mind seems to be able to radically transcend systems of meaning and introduce meaning angles and it generates creativity and if those people in charge of the industries deprecate the creativity, they end up putting their own enterprise on the road if not failure, at least less creativity, is that right?
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>> creativity always comes as a surprise to us. >> i hope your colleagues in this industry across the bay here in silicon valley not far from where we are here at the independent institute on the other side of san francisco bay, i hope they pay attention to you because if not and ifom you are right, it might be they will be overtaken in creativity because it will deprecate the qualities that made their business work. it seems like a terrible shame, they should pay attention to george gilder. >> they can pay attention in history and pay attention to the universe, the idea that the human mind in random
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fluctuations of molecules. in the human mind is the product of random evolutionary forces. it makes them think they have their minds with the machine but the mind is almost infinitely more complex than the machine even today. >> so for those of us -- >> we don't understand it at all. >> for those of us whoho are friends of the creative technological enterprise, we would encourage colleagues not
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to underestimate their own minds buying into this ridiculous liquid product if i get that the mind is nothing but a random set of physical mechanics. >> the life after google. >> this is immediately after i, life after google. gaming a.i., i'm going to take you somewhere unexpected here i think probably because i'm looking at messages from our viewers right now so following what i just said about the effects of this belief, faith that the mind is nothing other than accidental material, mechanical and physical, this person says the simplest of mind is still more complex with internet system, kind of hard to say there is no god, that's what this person says, but i have another thing that's a little
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different from when i was reading your book, this thought struck me, there always has been in history of civilization something attention is not always opposition, a mindsetna which is empirical in nature and a mindset bets and spiritual and pious in nature so that's why people religion is signs in each other's way. there's something to that but what i am saying based on your analysis is there's a new spiritual or devotional attitude about the singularity which make itself form new opposition between science and religion and religion means the religion of similarity, getting in the way of the actual scientific attitude of creativity so it's a replay in an unexpected form for
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an old opposition or is it? i think it's a replay of a very old i opposition the roles are reversed because of people who are gaga over the power of a.i. to take over everything in singularity, they are so on their faith position to close off their ability to be receptive to other data and to bring other data in, where the scientists -- >> virtual reality, a number of good books, a.i. makes you stupid essentially. >> yeah, that's what you're saying. very intriguing. here is another comment from a viewer on with us right now. jennifer's house, there's
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something about a.i. and military implications, wrong technology and ability to select without human interaction or example. do you know about this comments on a.i. and military? >> a military based on computer systems i manhattan. project was on computer systems where richard got emerged in computation as part of the manhattan project and they make the observation that with technology you better respond to reality because reality can't be
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fooled. the reality is these were completely dependent on human minds, they do not think at all. the idea that these machines as they shuffle, it's a religious belief. >> that's always saying, that religious belief means there's national security danger deploying artificial intelligence on the assumption that it can. >> i don't think they are quite doing that but they are advancing drones probably to quickly. probably exaggerating their
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capabilities. >> one of them didn't work the way president biden thought it would work and that was disturbing. children from military -- >> that is disturbing and moreover -- >> i think a.i. is a great and the evolution and the computer, no threats of a human, the idea of elon musk describing, it can minds butd by human
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it's the human mind and civilization that keeps us alive. our whole civilization is the product of randomt mutations of chemistry and physics. a flatrs universe -- physics and chemistry and the disabling philosophy. >> you spoke a minute ago of derailed fails drone strike in kabul but killed a family with
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children. he said it wasn't able to distinguish but what's striking about that is
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laura rhoton
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saying ethical checks and balances programmed into a.i. >> a.i. has the potential for the program and you have to do it. so the answer is yes but it's not ase if they are programmina moral conscience with the program on parameters. >> the proxies need it. here's a question i should post,
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may be our last, someone named jacob has >> the domination of the information for further economics which prohibits anticipating the future, the future based on human creativity and declareds creativity always comes as a surprise to us and the failure of economic, this
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mind can create a new future and what differentiates our age from the stone age is not the refinement but it's advanced knowledgeel. growth is learning and it's all constrained by the passage of timeme with abundance so unless it's just more of the same and the generation of scott surprises. in 30 years, it would be almost
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incomprehensible in some ways, technologically from the world we live in today. i think we will produce intelligence machines that will depend on a new carbon age, brains that consist of carbon so intelligence machines of the future with various forms of carbon. they arere already in the form f carbon now. are there new hybrid materials
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that can simulate intelligence for binary so it can of the day. we will have a lifetime of silicon. >> isn't carbon more plentiful? >> no. it's less plentiful but silicon is great because of its one of themm most three elements in the earth. it's providential but silicon, aluminum and oxygen are the common substances. but carbon --
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>> yes, carbon machines. i believe substrates of intelligent machines will be carbon -based. >> at the end of the book, gaming a.i., george, you say he's interesting words and i think i'll stop here, you say productivity does not mean evaporation ofme work. a.i. will make people more productive and thus more employable, it will create new and safer and more interesting work generate capitol to companies and new ventures as newd technologies have done through history. what it will not do is create a mind. what it tells us about the university, thank you george. grateful to take the time, thank
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you for writing the book gaming a.i. and thank you for letting book life after goal which i went a minute. thank you. >> the advisory board. >> many creative places. >> we refer friends to friends in seattle at the discovery institute again, thank you to george and everybody who joined us for today's independent conversation from the independent institute here in california. have a great day and join us >> thank you. ♪♪ >> sunday december 5 on in-depth, historian and conservative commentator victor joins us live to talk about war, politics and citizenship in the united states. his book titles include the father of us all from the case for trump and his latest, the dying citizens. the idea of american citizenship
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