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tv   After Words Ben Shapiro The Authoritarian Moment  CSPAN  November 1, 2021 2:45am-3:45am EDT

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if the search box at the top of the page. >> book tv after words ben shapiro podcast host editor emeritus of the daily wire insist the progressive left is pushing an authoritarian agenda in america. he's interviewed by nationally syndicated radio talkshow host. after words is a weekly interview program interviewing top nonfiction authors about their latest work. >> i have the religion and the joy of interviewing ben shapiro about his new book called the authoritarian moment. it's not unimportant. you title the authoritarian moment. it strikes me as a chilling,
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why is your book titled the authoritarian moment? >> the reason is it is experiencing this a moment in time which is unique in american history. the rise of the authoritarian movement inside the united states has essentially taken over all of our institutions. i wanted to tackle the institutional take over. think of in terms of pure government, government taking control of everything. the point i'm making with the title is we are all experiencing it together is not just the government has decided to take control over our our lives. the government c is not controlling every aspect of our lives, thank god we live in the free country at the moment. it social we have seen all around us. the water we are all swimming in and feel on a day-to-day level from our peers, our neighbors, our social media, every time we turn onn the tv. that sort is creating a
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feeling of repression and the united states been felt by broad majority of americans. again it is unique product of the time we live in. >> i think the older one is, the more horrifying the current moment is an obviously on american it is to feel the way many people feel. i think a lot of younger people, they do not have the history that this may seem normal are they do not understand how unprecedented it is for such a wide swath of americans to suddenly feel as though they have to be careful what they say. in the book, you talk about how some people have tried to silence what you call the majority. i want to ask you about that. but before that in the beginning of the book you talk
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about how we first will have to define who are the authoritarians? a lot of people on the political left orti mainstream media become left mostly, they say the authoritarian impulse is exclusively on the right for the site what happened on january 6. how do you answer those folks? >> i'm not going to pretend they're not authoritarians on the right. there are people who do not like democratic policies on the right did they represent a very, very small minority. they also have no institutional support. when i define authoritarianism is a very well-knownno phenomenon if you are very rule following person and you wish to compel others to follow those rules this would make you an authoritarian from the right. there's a lesser-known phenomenon there was no such thing there are noth people on the left who are not connected
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in any way to authoritarianism. there plenty of left wing over range from cuba, china, the soviet union. because are so many social scientists linked to the left there's a market attempt to definingan broadly enough to allow for the possibility as well. several decades of this there was a political scientist who defined it gave three basic components. one was the idea of anti- conventional is in. the idea everyone is not a moral standard is inferior and lesser. the idea is if you do not believe like many members of the left you are not fit company for anyone else. there's a second element guarantees the power to shut you up and protect everybody else but we definitely comment
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ff to shut you up at third there is an element of revolutionary aggression that is connected to authoritarianism. the idea here being the institutions are in the need to be torn down. the infusion of all these things into traditional ideology and now the institutional capture that has happened. they have to be remade or have a reset of our institutions. but you need to beat wish into the cornfield you don't believe they waited. the good and decency may thrive. >> it is fascinating to me, cultural memory is so important. anyone who is aware of the 50s, the blacklist in hollywood automatically, i think this has carried through the decades. we tend to think of this kind
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behavior of a blacklisting as fundamentally un-american and typically used against anyone on the left. but it seems what you are describing in the book and what many of us have observed in the last few years is precisely the opposite. there is scarcely any references to the mccarthy asked blacklisting that happened in the 50s. it's as if that was wiped away. there are parallels per. >> oh for sure. for that was an intellectual at and member of the school that suggested in order to preserve democracy that opinions are taller those bad opinions might win. there are certain views he
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explicitly says they're intolerant and terrible many to be repressed. in doing so on behalf of tolerance. and may seemed like a twisting of the language but it has become the go to argument by people in society that in order perched to protect ideas that bothered we have to silence you. sue do not offend anyone or micro across the feelings are not hurt we have to silence you in some way. i thinkhu that is tied more deeply to very change notion of what identity amounts to in the united states in the west at this time. it used to be identity formed in coordination with politics it was formed in coordination with the rules of society. the way you civilize a child and you civilize them to society institutions for they became a good civilize a member of society. now the idea is when you raise a child have to find a way to help them find their authentic self. the authenticity, citizenship,
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all is to be found within. it's a whole group of people say we do not like the way you are acting for this is an infringement on the liberty of their identity by their identity has been threatened by the idea some people disapprove of the way they are acting or the things they are saying. so disapproval becomes an act p of violence and then you require institutions to prevent such acts of violence by cramming down the censorship. >> but you are talking about for people are notrt listening to every syllable is this idea somebody might today say because of my religious views, because i am a serious christian or a serious jew, or serious and muslim i have certain views about sexuality for example. what has changed is that here you describing it is somewhat on the left or the social left might frown on but feels the need to cancel. feels the need to force people
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to be unable enter civil society to hold those views which someone has suddenly characterized as outdated and defensive. >> that is right we live in an era of some calls expressive individualism. human beings a field they are owed a certain amount of applause from the world for however they choose to live their life. if people refuse to give that to them that aggression in turn justifies authoritarian measures that we have seen, people have to be silence that the force into compliance. sometimes he says take the form of governmental pressure. some high-profile cases ine the united states the people who simply say i do not wish to bake a cake for a same wedding because i am a religious christian prayer and i can get for anybody but not a same-sex wedding. in colorado he has been persecuted by the state of colorado party's been taken to supreme courthe is going to end up in supreme court again. there's an overt attempt to oppress his life as he sees fit for going to live in a
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country together at a certain point were going to have to set you w get to live your life how you want and think what you want. and i get to live my life and i get to think what i want. we are going to have to take the perspective at the very least you can wave your fist around until you see the face predict actual harm as if i harm you. so if you feel bad about how i think that distinction is gone away. >> it is my contention and i sat on my own radio program in public speeches i believe most inamericans know what you have just described. they understand it isos preposterous in america to be able to force them to think a certain way. think most americans understand but we might call the cultural elite that have great success in forcing this new idea which i would say is
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not onlyn on american but anti- american. how do you define freedom? what are the parameters here so someone tuning in right now why shouldn't i be able to persecute them or marginalize them? what are the parameters? what are the limits of that kind of behavior? when is it civil in american and when is it become authoritarian?we >> only talk here it's about when is cancellation appropriate? my basic idea went cancel culture is appropriate when someone should lose their job is when the perspectives they hold actually impact the job they are doing in a direct weight. if your plumber holds a view do not like you don't have are you should set your plumber does not get to be a plumber at your house because he voted for person different than you. if however for example you work inff the political sphere like i get your perspectives are a white supremacist.
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it's perfectly fair for bills i do not wish to engage because of their w viewpoint that directly impacts what i am doing or living because of gotten rid of that distinction. to turn everything private into something public parks and i would dig up the actual facebook post of your plumber and try to ruin his life, his career, his business if we don't like what he has a sam facebook. that is a mistake in going to lead to some really dark results. becausesa most people have something cancelable on facebook or twitter. this becomes particularly egregious when you have institutes of a power during the stuff. especially because it's not sort of i would say morally neutral what you very often has is a corporation with a specific point of view that is mirrored. even if it is nothing to do with your job you can find yourself in serious trouble. if you are working at a corporation in the middle of the black lives matter movement next year everyone is around two is posting a black square an instagram square ander
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you do not post a black square your colic go to your boss say it's offensive you do not post a black square. he could find yourself in the bosses office and may be losing her job because you did not mirror the priorities of people who work your company. the point most relevant and safe is used by social scientists, the idea you can take an institution and change the entire organization the institution was basically 20% of the people who work there during all of the work. everyone else in the middle is surrendering free that some pretty radical results in these organizations. >> this brings to mind at least two things. the first thing, when people start talking about hate speech, i am not quite sure when it was or hate crimes,
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that to me was a dividing line. i thought to myself if i murder you because you are a jew and i hate jews, how is that different than if i murder you because you are white or because i a was just crazy and i wanted to murder someone. what does that have to do with anything when we are talking about the law? that struck me as an odd moment in the culture when why someone committed murder or committed a crime mattered. obviously it matters to some extent in some ways. really in terms of the legality of it it struck me as a fascinating that somehow, i don't know how, enter the law. it seems that kind of crossing of the line helps pave the way for what we arere talking about. >> i think one of the things that has happened you can sit particularly with the legal
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debate is that there is a very good first amendment case that hate crime should not be a category. it should not have a specific level of prosecution for a murder based on hatred of race. because again biggest individual perspective that may be ugly but is not barred by the first amendment. here's the reason why that push has been widely accepted usacross united states. that is because people have adopted the perverse view that if someone misuses the right is bad if an individual right is misused by somebody it is the right to blame. so in order people not misuse it. you see this happening right now with regard to social media. there people misusing freedom of speech to post stuff on social media that may be some folks on the left do not like that or maybe they are abusing it right racist information for there is a hard push to curtail your ability to post on social media that an overlord looking over your
3:01 am the idea is the individual right in itselfal is the problem but it is a core component of left-wing authoritarianism. this goes to the top down censorship by the are themselves a threatt is inheritedat an ideology that critical race theory the individual rights are a threat to the utopian regime were trying to bring about individual rights have to go away. individual rights are a guys for harry give power they are baked into the cake and decide to discriminate against other people. that is an anti- american philosophy. >> we are talk about cultural marxism. you reference the frankfurt school. the ideas which are relegated to the academy have finally over the decades trickle down so to speak into mainstream culture. if i do not post the square on social media data 70 might look at me funny in any
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previous generation that would have immediately the kind of things the nazis it if you do notes say heil hitler loud enough you are suspicious. that kind of thing most americans knew instinctively. they knew instinctively that was deeply on american. what do you think hasn't played that many americans particularly young americans do not seem to understand that as a threat to american self-government? >> a lot of americans because they haveth grown up with these rights and their back pocket they fail to understand the importance of the right. young people on college campuses talk about whether they would complain to administration if a professor or fellow student said something offensive whether certain speakers should be barred from campus these are very basic first amendment notions. and yet huge number of americans are individual in
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nature do notot adhere to people. the collective is how economics distributes particular resources. think that some of that comes from ignorance of any other system. if you grew up in america you've never seen how anyw other system works so you have a warmer view of other systems especially when you've been taught from youth all the flaws of american very little of its greatness. beyond that, i think what most americans have been taught is this idea that they are duty and life is to find their authentic self anyone who pats him on their back is good whoever does not as bad needs to be silenced. what we need is validation around us. people don't validate you. it's never a problem with you. it's whoou you are meant to be. anyone who threatens that has to be silenced. the life, liberty the pursuit
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of happyness for guaranteed happiness in our own authentic identity as defined by us robert redefined economics were not redefining the nature of government and free speech. it's really, really dangerous. >> the book of course is titled the authoritarian moment. there is something chilling and hopeful about the moment because it strikes me and authoritarian moment could be the high point of the way. there is a moment and then suddenly by god's grace wake up to the significance and move against it. i can't help, the parallel that we are experiencing now. there is a moment in the 30s when people had the freedom to push back against what they saw. but they did not recognize where it was going. theyey. had not have the
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historical reference to understandto where it might go. german leaders had basically been good. they did not act when they had that moment to act. i wonder if that is the same today in america? when summits are spent in cultural pressure you don't realize how horrific it is how anti-american it is and where it is going. so you say nothing for now. and the question is will you be able to say something tomorrow or will you beat totally silenced? when you say the authoritarian moment in the title, you have hope that some americans are waking up to where we are. americans a lot of are waking up to where we are bringing the point you're making here's a really important one. obviously feeling it roman history the consolidation of power predates hitler. it's the final step inco hitler's dissent because
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people leading the government are not nearly as threatening and dangerous as hitler is given the go-ahead by huge swaths of the population and huge political parties. that sort of thing is pretty common in human history for the instruments of destruction is made available to the people truly dangerous take it up things become crystal clear. right now the instruments of destruction are being made available. there being a weaponize and a perhaps a particular point of viewll. there is nothing that says the left is winded to wield that power. even the left side should be this frayed of the power being wielded. as far as the blowback that has begun. you are saying in the broad national movement against critical race theory. think you are seeing it in the new found willingness to push back against corporations that are involving themselves and political cram down. i there is a burgeoning movement even among traditional liberals against
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some of the stuff. i've said before the future of the country is not going to rely on the hard right conservatives do. the future of the country lies at the radical left. going to lie with traditional liberals about a group the right on means. anday may agree the radical left on the utopian goals. we disagree with the left on that willingness to subsume individual rights on power. we agreed on things like nationalize healthcare and higher taxes, and distribution of income we agree with all those things w but you do not get to destroy individual rights. you doop not get to get people fired you do not get to destroy people's lives because of the disagree we still have a country. at the liberal say to the right we are going to move along the left because it's more important that we reach utopia and preserve anything like it in a society things are going to get really ugly, really fast it's not going to end with the complete subjugation of the rights. it's going to end with frankly
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separation by the right. you see more talk about this over time people is a recent poll showed people in southeast estates which tend to be of a similar red, 56% they would be happy to see if you keep pushing it. that sentiment is only going to get more widespread the harder they pushes the more the middleth collapses. >> your first chapter is called how to silence thehe majority. let's talk about that. a lot of people are wondering how this happened. which has been happening it seems recently people are feeling it. we are being silenced now ten years ago, 20 years ago that's in the precinct of the academy. i had to take seriously and main america what happened? >> the loudest can triumph with a very small minority of any group. there been studies that
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demonstrate of a group of people it takes about 20% of people to re- normalize the entire group. here's's how it works here's an example. let's say you have a family of four and one of the kids in the family, said thehe daughter, decide she's a vegan now. mommy and cook whatever you want but i need a separate vegan meal now mom has a decision to make. she can either cook three meals one for the other three of the family or one vegan meal. torsion cook one for the rest thel families i have time for this will go vegan for tonight, no problem. so she goes vegan for the family for now have one daughter who holds the position everyone else in the family is now going along this particular position. now it's in this neighborhood are begin for the neighborhood barbecue involve fives family each of these families have four members. so now, this family set our daughter is vegan we have been eating vegan it's important to her. so if we come to the barbecue were going she had vegan option buried the host of the barbecue is it okay i understand people want meat but is it that big of a deal?
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don't want to gorge the market, let's do it all vegan is fine. they said they do vegan for thend entire block. now you r have 20 people been re- normalize, by one person. all it takes is the creeping move we take a loud minority is to marv and a bunch of people who are willing to go long to get along to be nice for that's what happened with our institutions in fact very loud minority who basically threaten people in the middle by saying we are going to come after we were quite racist, sexist will try to destroy it will boycott you if you do not go long. you are being nice if you are going longer being nice you should be quiet, you should be cordial. there's a process hereto youou can see itd on college campuses and went from being cordial, be nice do not say anything that would defend anyone else. of any political debate is going to offend people faxed tend to offend people talk
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about race and crime statistics. don't mention that it offends people when you talk about that. or if you talk about sexual values for example you have me a traditionalist. just don't go there it offends people. can we just have a nice dinner,e be cordial? that turns pretty quickly into speech is violence. your form of speech is not just offending me it is aggressing made. you are doing something that harms me. now is not just a request to be nice because so many of us are being nice why can't you be nice do? i've see were an aggressive person your speech is a form of violence i went to barkley spoke about the value of the first amendment people were literally outside chanting that. finally get to the third step which is silence is violence. herenc the idea is it's not enough for you just to shut up. step two a shut up and listen buried step one was to be nice. you dost not know just shut up and listen then step three was you must mirror what we are saying and become part of the mob or obviously are part of the opposition it's completely
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binary. either year old into mirror we are going to say are going to take you to the opposition and destroy per it's a step-by-step does not feel particularly agree just for each step of the process does not like much is being asked of you. just like a boiling lobster, but the timing at the end of it the lobster is boiled. >> i think the reason so many americans voted for trump and why they love him and have this emotional connection is because he seemed in his away to fundamentally understand what was happening and willing to fight against it. that to me is the problem today. a lot of the people who want to be seen as civil, they do not understand there is a time when someone is shooting at your head and you need to take that seriously. trump seems to have taken that at leastat somewhat seriously. more seriously than most in party.ublicanse
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where do you think this goes today? where are our politics today? maybe someone is not listening to a conversation or does not have the time to worry about, they just note this is horrifying, this is fundamentally un-american. maybe they cannot explain why. but if someone is fighting for these basic values and a ham-fisted way or not, they want to champion that person as a leader pray. >> i think there's a lot of truth to that. to a certain extent donald trump was a lot of americas a pulsating metal to an elite establishment deciding to sit down and shut up. and trump did not think they are idiots. as i have said many times over the trump era, trump was a hammer when he hit a nail is very satisfying. sometimes you hit a kitten it
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was not nearly as satisfying for their people thrilled with the fact that trump actually would hit the nail so many republican politicians in the passage that you know what, you're right, you keep saying i'm uncivil your right-of-way to can see the argument. what's the republican party ezio conservatives need to do and frankly what americans do more generally is not make the mistake of identifying civility with g conciliation is not the same thing but you can be civil you can also stand your ground per unit they listen, not going to use bad words i'm not going to insult you i'm just going to stand my ground and say no. i do not acquiesce to this if you call me a y racist maybe it's a because you are full but maybe you have no evidence this is the last resort of a scoundrel and i'm not going to do it. if it people begin to do that whether politically or socially that's going to make an awful big difference. think your certainties is reflected in some of the politicians were rising on the republican side of the aisle. i've see the one on my mind is ron desantis of florida has been quite militant and
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standing up to the media. he's not rude, is not vulgar he just stands up to them. as republicans get better at this there's a better shot they're going to be representing the frustrations of the american public. let me say this i think any republican ever gets nominated again who is perceived as civility first. i think that era is over. frankly i think that is dead it should be over we are past the notion the best way to win over people in the middle is by being completely civil or being conciliatory to people who disdained your lifestyle per disdain you and want to control so many aspects of your life. >> let's talk for a minute about the media's complicity in this. again, i cancel my subscription to the "new york times". i always knew they leaned left. but during the trump era i was genuinely horrified to see the front page become editorial. but the horror of course is
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not that it is an editorial but that it is pretending still to be journalism. whater do you think happened in american newsrooms? is this what happened in the culture atit large? it is strange to me too have so few because in the journalistic class you would expect people who really p understood there are fundamental values about how we do journalism, how we do democracy. i see almost no one in the main stream media, and the journalistic classes who really have talked about this issue at all. >> the people you talk about these issues like barry weiss end up losing a job or quitting leaner times out of essentially being persecuted at a newspaper she was hired to work out. think a grave mistake 20 years ago, 30 years ago people were warning about the stuff conservatives went yeah but when answer a world that will go away.
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have toral will do pay taxes and engage with the rest of society. what if they brought the values along with them and re- normalize the institutions to value the university. that seems to have happened in these major newspapers with the "new york times"" essentially run out by the neck nicole hannah jones wing. it seeks to cancel people routinely thatam lies about american history and wins pulitzers four. everyone is supposed to genuflect and if you don't, you might find yourself out on your butt. if you cross the mildest light which that line can move anytime, you will find yourself out pretty good the editorial page editor james bennett find yourself out of a job pretty generic op-ed that united states editor. you can be donald mcneil in the science writer for the "new york times" and find yourself out of a job because on a school trip a while ago you said to a student there are certain of the word there not other uses.
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again this comes to the nature of a bunch of liberals who run .the institution. the "new york times" was liberal has been liberal for decades. the problem is that liberals did not have the courage of their own conviction sank to the radicals you do not get to destroy individual right and individual freedom of the press the ability to say brother you do not be to destroy that in the name of utyour agenda but liberals are embarrassed by those things thatey gone along with the woke because they have decided they woke have a point spread they are the beneficiaries ofef powe. he thanks to himself and the beneficiary of power. i did inherit this newspaper. how would i say is nicole hhannah jones my scent of individual rights are correctable she is arguing the standards ofng individual rights are a re- enshrinement of the
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hierarchy that gave h me my advantage in the first place? there's a really deep level of guilt. it's linked to white guilt that has pervaded so much of our institutional life. it means there's almost a waiting and ready surrender institutions the woke and taken advantage of it. you believe in god, i believe in god, the biblical god. do you have hope that we can get through this as a country and as a culture? you sure hope strictly limited to the sphere of this world or is your hope anchored in your faith? >> i hope it's always anger my faith because god makes promises and keeps his promises and my point of view. as for hope for the country americans are getting tired of this. it's very tiresome. it's boring, it's annoying it's irritating. there is not been a mass
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movement. i think i can't to how my people disagree with not nearly everything about politics i've talked to lately who will resignation to the messages i am saying but it is it weird we cannot have an open conversation. it is a weird if they invite me on their shows, their own audience with it so angry with them they will cancel its unattainable it cannot be carried forward. the problem is this fate behind doors that need to be saying it nationally. people on the left that i am friendlydl with us what he called a happy birthday problem. on my birthday i very often receive a happy birthday message is very prominent people there liberal and left-wing always have. no one will saying happy birthday publicly on twitter forr the reason he might say happy birthday on twitter's build acknowledging the humanity of some who a disagrees with the on politics or all of your fans might think you're sympathetic to their politicalal position.
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this is pretty dramatic and astonishing. what we need for people to consider i themselves to say this sort of stuff out loud. i talk about in the introductionsi is a perfect example of this. sent actor, writer, producer and director in hollywood. he e-mailed our company may be three years ago, four years ago he wanted to do some sort of documentary or show with the second amendment pretty set i want to talk to someone is pro- second amendment so i can get thee. perspective put out that was nice very nice guy but as he is leaving i said listen to not tweet you are here. it's a friendly piece of it i should tweet it you're going to get a bunch of nonsense for there's just no reason to do it pretty got what you needed and all thehe rest. a couple weeks later decided b
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he's going to be a nice guy but he went on twitter and tweet it out something like i agree with most of what ben shapiro has a saber is a goodhearted person he wants in a favor for me for no other reason than to be nice. he got hit so hard by the left he pulled down the tweet instead put up a new tweet saying i did not realize my own sin and doing this but i did not realize i don't side with racism, xenais phobia and bigotry i'm still the process of learning. the stuff happens all the time but here's the truth all they had to say was right, when people came after him that's all they had to do was say and? hi just that i don't agree with everything he says but so upward by the way their people on the left who are brave enough to do that. i have lots, my sunday special which is an hourr long interview show. i warn virtually everyone on the left they will get blowback for the one to come on the shows i don't care. they get the blowback and then it's over. but that is a thing that is so
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amazing about all this is the mirage. the notion these people this small group of people should be able to cancel anybody are the bedrock broad majority care about your facebook posts you should lose your job or put your business in danger is insane. all it takes is somebody shouting the emperor has no close particular semi- from the left for this to end pretty quickly. >> i always think of reagan at the brandenburg gate when he gave the famous speech and line, mr. gorbachev turned on the swell for the reason i think about that is the moment of real leadership in that the folks told him over, and over, and over again you cannot say that. you must not say that. and he said it. in other words he didn't listen to them even though they tried very hard. he simply did it. there was some blowback and then it'sn over. and then he's recognized as a
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hero and the demons tremble because when you have a leader like that, a leader like that can defeat communism. can defeat the evil totalitarianism that in the world of the soviet empire. it seems to me, individually have a class of americans who understood that and lives like that. the reason we are where we are is because most people today i think would say the folks that i can't say't i better not say it. whatat do you think has changed fundamentally? i guess, let me say, i think it is 50 years of hollywood singing a different song. we do not have a john wayne film. we have a different kind of film that exults the antihero and on, and on, and on.
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that is had a powerful cultural effects that is my guess of the decline of religion. so long aswe you're not actively harming someone who were talking about right now but they are engaging in the authoritarian movement is a religion without god. it has for a long time it is a pagan form of religion in which you must to an ever moving mob. he must continually sacrifice to this mob or you will not be part of the mob. there is a religious impulse with the shifting on authoritarian politics it's treally ugly. on a cultural level that's a huge problem. i think the decline of family has been a serious issue here. again families tend to bind it. of collapse of families that fragments. social me has exasperated this
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because social media he will geput together a mop of terrible people you actually go out and seek them out had to go door-to-door and say this thing happen less take advantage of this into the terrible thing. lech lynch that diet because were horrible people. had to coalesce around a particular thought for a night you have a mop online waiting. it's like a mob milling around in times square waiting. it's a lot easier to mobilize, a lot easier to find its international and national in scope. all it takes is omitted to tweet one badhi thing they got 10,000 people screaming at them how terrible they are. calling up their t boss that saying they ought to lose her job but that is a major. you talk about hollywood, there's something there to break don't think it is necessarily a focus on antihero pretty think the nature of what hollywood considers heroic has changed great heroes and our films now is not there so much antihero as they are victims. the people who are supposed to feel are victims. victimization and heroism is exactly the samems thing. normally in a heroes journey
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if you are telling a story the hero is the person who might be victimized by circumstances it's an obstacle in the overcome it. there also's must be riding on something of value. in our society and keep coming back to authenticity is a key value. persons victimized any send their authenticity is threatened. which means living the most authentic life is what makes them heroic. this has bled over into our politics. the extent every hero from our past were tearing down statues of george washington. i think what happened to george wood is awful just as everyone thanks what happened to george floyd is awful. but the notion he is it civil rights like georgia parks or mlk that's insulting he was a victim of police brutality. that does not mean you build statues of victims of police brutality. they are all significantly better than pray that contrast
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it's pretty telling. >> i have to ask, it seems to me the reason soan many people are foolishly drifting along is because they do not seem to have the knowledge, they were not educated. when you think about happened in the french revolution you look at the cultural revolution in china. it is so horrific when you see where it goes, what it does to human beings. anyone with anyny knowledge of things would see where we are now is exactly where it goes. why do you think people, adults iv league adults do not have an idea of these parallels. >> first of all a lot then there are the goodd guys. true authoritarianism has never been g tried.
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sure in the past these things are used for bad. we are not in favor of valid struggle sections those are different in kind of good. >> does anyone believe they thought he was evil or the people prosecuting his agenda were evil? is there any question of that? >> no i think that's exactly the point. they think they're doing the stuff on behalf of the angels pretty think that is part of it. for people in the middle of the free and prosperous life we have all been granted because of them building on the shoulders of giants for generations now, that prosperous incredibly blessed life the greatest privilege in the world is an unbelievable privilege. it is true all time in all places.
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from deuteronomy at the click of a button any movement can be good only towards utopia even the baseline. the natural status of things as we hear this from folks on the left sometimes. i saw this quote from nelson mandel it was when the dumbest cause i've ever seen as prosperity is a natural state of man poverty is not the natural state of man. he thought to myself that is ridiculous. that is the philosophy of so many people living in the united states of all good things we have in the unites are not the product is a natural state of the world. it's individual right is brought us all the bad things. all of things that are uniquely good about america they're not unique they are universal. they are universally and seems
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to be the upside down philosophy. >> everywhere i go i bump into people from cuba or former soviet union they see what we are talking about with crystal clarity. the only reason i think i see it a little bit more clearly is my friend because my mother grew up in east germany, my father grew up in greece when the communist try to take over the raised me without trying very hard to know how particularly wicked and cruel communism is. and therefore, even without thinking to love america simply because freedom is the antithesis of that. i am amazed by what you say americans are somehow so myopic, so blessed they think this is normal. they think what we've alwaysd had here is a normal rather than a wild idea that should
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not logically have succeeded but did. we should be grateful we should keep the republic. do you have hope that because of where we are now people are waking up to this that could have been asleep to it? >> ice book with some who wildly disagrees with me is a professor at a major usuniversity and said i disagree with everything you say. but i want to have a conversation with you about it. i think my student should have a conversation with you about apart i was shocked by it. i remember my notes from before used to disagree with you with aou lot of your politics burnett got to tell you, i too am living in fear for the lot of people living in fear. when you realize the people living in fear of the majority not the minority. every single american political group with the exception of people who consider themselves a far left us as their own comparables have thehe thing in public. every single political grouping that includes mainstream liberals. that means is a broad majority
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people feeling really uncomfortable at this moment. there only two ways out the discomfort ones complete surrender which were seeing from people in the consolidation and pushback. i hope consolidation pushback comes in a positive and useful way. one of the big problems with the authoritarian push of the regime to the left is how it can extraordinary it reactionary and reactive. you could get a reaction he gets than the restoration of liberalism adherence to individual rights but you can do something looks a lot more like you are using the government and corporations to cram down your own values? will go directly the other way. we are now going to use against you. there may be people who are happier on the right at that prospect and people oneo the left three people on the left are happy with the prospect right now by the question for a lot of americans are ask themselves do you wish to live in this country with these people? the answer still yes you have to answer the concession neutrality ought to be when it
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comes to our institutions being weaponize. again the harder the left pushes the heart of the right is going to push back. heit's going to come out as an pretty ways. >> i just got a few minutes left. talk about how science defeated actual science. how is it that science defeated actual science? >> science itself, normal science is a process. the scientific process. every scientist will tithers no institution called the science. there is asi known person who is the repository of the science. there is a scientific process that are w verified or not verified. subject to being overturned over time we gain new knowledge. that's normal science. every time he heard during the public pandemic listen to the science good every time you heard during the global warming all of the global warming debate you have to follow the science. they don't meanoc follow the process what they mean is
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there's this guy over here you need to agree with him. if you don't agreeo with him you are a science denier. he saw that absolutely crystal clear and came to cut wood for example were thus science not supposed to get together with each other in large numbers should not go to church should not have outdoors church, all of this is dangerous. this is passed an airborne fashion priest okay we will assume it'st' true for a moment. and then within a coupleth of weeks they switchit you up as long as you're purchasing for georgia floyd can be very large numbers of people in fact you have a public health duty to go and purchase for georgia floyd in the middle of a pandemic 20 million strong. it is necessary science is saying is a public health duty to do all of this. you saw again the trenching of the vaccine. it was pretty obvious to anyone who validated the best way was to give each of the older people first for their risk by ones most at every available metric there is nothing else that comes close people who are older are
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most at risk. yes there was a push inside the biden administration to instead the vaccines on racial equity which would mean morese dead and black people even giving a lot of vaccine to young black people and not as many to old black people. an old black people are much morel likely to die. all of this was a hijacking of the science and legitimacy that we feel. science is terrific it has results. but the transition away from science as a process to science as a bodyoi of people leads to couple specific v problems. which is science is speaking outside their area of expertise. sciences inc. sure i'm an epidemiologistsc now i have a talk about racial justice but that's really silly undermines science at least to what i call the bleed over effect which is where you have people who are political speaking about scientific issues. thee infused politics into their
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own science this leads to weird things like nature magazine declaring there's no such thing as boys and girls. we have scientific america on the impact of the papers which is totally antiscience. in great scientists declaring for certainty genders in the mind back by the science. you arens science denier i'm familiar with that. we all listen to the old science anymore.
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they started pushing preposterous racial theories happening in the west right now. but it is astonishing to me science is undermine science that journalists how do we get back to any sense of objectivity in either of those spheres? science is a most instructed understanding is an extraordinary sort of change they wish to see it it's very dangerous is not sciences here to do their acting outside their area of expertise and outside of their actual purview. that is dangerous stuff. as far ass journalism is he the nasame thing. it's our job to hold the powerful to account. are our job to effect social
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change. know your job is to explain the facts are happening right now that's literally your job. and yet journalists have taken upon themselves we are into social state change or instruments made in the world ala better place. you can make the world a better place by doing her actual job. come second toha the agenda but now you decided change on a social level. this happens regimes in the past destroy science and soviet union all of this stuff is a p precedent for it. just because our president does not mean people feel the ring of power, they think i will wear this around for a
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while and see what it does. it's way too much fun to talk to ben shapiro congratulation on the book authoritarian moment let me ask you a few questions of five seconds to answer each one but what's the capitol of north dakota? >> bismarck, right? >> correct. second question, will you me on my tv radio program very soon? >> i will be happy to do that a patient eight the invite. >> that was so easy ben shapiroul congratulations on the authoritarian moment. and all that you are doing but hope to catch up with you again soon. >> thanks so much. >> after words is available as a podcast. to listen visit c -- span -- org/podcast or search c-span after words on your podcast app. watch this and all previous after words interviews click the after words a button near the top of the page.
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>> every saturday american history tv documents america story and on sundays book tv brings the latest in nonfiction books and authors funding for cspan2 comes from these television companies and more ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> support cspan2 as a public service. here is a book publishing industry news is named mitzie angelini president of the publishing house. ms. angel's current publisher and editor. should be the first woman in the president of the 75-year-old book publisher project towards a growing group of women have taken over
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leadership roles at large publishers recently including dana kennedy at simon & schuster lisa lucas at pantheon and adrienne von usa. reuters reports french legislation is taking aim at amazon's shipping cost to customers in the country currently french law prohibits discounting the price of new books in free shipping. amazon charges a 1 cent for delivery to sidestep the law. the new legislation would set a minimum delivery fee. the french minister of culture commented this laws necessary to rig at the distorted competition with online book sales and prevent the inevitable inaptly that will emerge of the status quo process. amazon argues the law will hurt consumers and rural areas and wait on the purchasing power of consumers. in other news performing artist has started a lending library of rare books by black writers and artists. contains a 50 books on a first
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come first serve basis per the inaugural owner of the atlanta bookstore. for more information. and according to bookscan print book sales were up close to 3% for the week ending october 16. book tv will continue to bring out new programs and publishing news. you can also watch all of our past programs any time at >> during a recent virtual program hosted by the harvard bookstore, atlantic staff writer clint smith looks at the legacy of slavery in america and how it has affected history. here's a portion of that discussion for. >> jefferson davis, come down in my hometown of new orleans and thinking about what does it mean that i grew up at a majority black city there are more to enslave people and started thinking about how the city reckoned with or failed
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to reckon with its own relationship to the history of slavery. a history that is ingrained and embedded in the physical infrastructure of that city in a profound way and opened it up and started thinking about other places across the country and across the ocean how they were telling that story. so much of this, i have been writing it for years. so much of this is animated by trying to write into the gaps and to fill the gaps i feel like i had experienced and that i was carrying from a young age. in trying to answer a lot of questions and fill a lot of voids in my own education that i had not had the answers too. the book was almost a process of attempting to fill those gaps. >> to watch the rest the program wash search for clint smith or the title of his book how the word is passed using the search box at the top of the page. next i am


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