tv Washington Journal Grover Norquist CSPAN October 29, 2021 11:29pm-12:19am EDT
" continues. host: our first guest is grover norquist, the host: and the first guest of the morning mr. norquist welcome back to the program remind people about your organization. >> americans for tax reform is set up at president reagan's request in 1985 and our goal was to pass the tax reform act of 1986 when we did that we
had the taxpayer protection pledge because many were concerned if you make 1000 changes to the tax code in a room somewhere the end of the day it would be a big tax increase many politicians give you a tax increase but they want to make sure that didn't happen we wanted to make sure that didn't happen so now that i governors and state legislators as simple as they take to put in writing to their voters and the voters of their state they would oppose and vote against any tax increase in the t vast majority of republicans in the house and senate thousand state legislators have made that commitment to their voters and if you ever talk to a congressman or state legislator someone who is running for office have you made that written public commitment to the people of your state the evil reform
government and not raise taxes to continue to do all the failed things? it is an interesting divide and then on the various parts of the free market with the market and lower taxes and the second amendment and all the various things people want to be left alone come together and work together to make sure everyone knows that they are doing now there are similar meetings and 45 state capitals and 20 overseas you have a good network people everybody who is in favor of more limited government and individual choices and liberty
for individuals to be put together and headed in the right direction. host: one of the discussions you have been is a tax framework of the build back better i want to work through some of the proposals yesterday with the most money proposed coming in from changes at the irs what are those proposals and can you see that dollar figure with revenue from this changes? >> they want the irs to have 80000, i'm sorry 87000 and more. kratz people to audit and look at your bank account and then to spend $80 billion and higher 87000 that's more people than serving on the aircraft carriers the roman
coliseum can be felt three times a social distancing that is a lot of irs agents and what is interesting it went from 17 to 19 have 5000 slots open they could not fill them. why? because the union has a rule you cand only hire first the unionize bureaucracy. so those jobs that i get filled in and here we don't have enough fire as agents that is not the fault is not budgeting it is the union work rules they have lived with at the irs sent one of the reasons people are concerned giving the irs more money because the president still n once it nancy pelosi still runs and schumer still wanted the only people who don't or 70 percent of democrats and 70 percent of americans that say it is a mistake then to look for the irs to go to your
bank accounts no warrant or suspicion anything is wrong but just access to your personalo data. that's not something people are willing to put up with. host: but the idea to hire those people is to go after those who previously did not pay the taxes they should. as a fundamental idea is that good or bad quick. >> you get different arguments biden says it is the corporations but the irs says they will increase audits to small businesses by 50 percent like self-employed people are independent contractors those are there targets that's a they are going after they have made that very clear. they pay their taxes because they have to go and major corporations are audited regularly.
what they are looking at going after our smaller businesses nail salons, barber shops those are the target audiencesse and what who they are going after and heree is the challenge we've seen the irs already abuse that if you put $10000 in cash in business a nail salon would take it to the bank and have to report it but if you put $9000 in the bank account and they taken money because they thank you are hiding the fact there have been some real horror stories of people having their life savings and their work in the business taken by the irs and then the audit is more than two years they come to you and says we thank you have $2000 you can either give us the 2000 or hire a lawyer at ten
or 20000 which will it be? that is a level of problem that we have with the irs looking at 65 percent of voters already believing they had too much power that's why people don't like it the shortage it is their own internal labor union rules they said they are not hiring people that the irs has recently than hiring and looking at the private data they have no legal right so the irs does not punish people and tell them to do that we also have the problem because the treasury department 80 percent of irs agents the money that they contribute to candidates, 97 percent goes to democrats see have a thoroughly politicized union for the irs agents, 97 percent democrats if you higher 80000 more irs agents and they pay
dues that recycle straight-backedd to the democratic party. >> this is done for the center for american progress and you talk about that audit and the biden proposal is designed to improve the irs ability to select so that it does especially the rich and fewer unnecessary audits of regularr people who what they oh and the average american the only practical effect is the reduce likelihood of getting audited how do you respond quick. >> a very good left-wing group from the biden administration have been higher straight out of it and those are the talking points of the people want the irs to have more power and more control and then that wouldld be responsibl. >> so for a couple of examples
with the money that they get now what wouldud they do with it with more power what do they do? they are required by law to do a study of the complexity of the irs code every year they haven't done in 20 years. twenty years they have made no effort that is a legal responsibility. line ofne the studies the inspector general's have that 42 percent of their printers were not working. why? they had not changed the ink. they don't take things seriously 42 percent don't work because they don't how to take the ink out to put in new inquiry they let it pile up and it jams they have been caught storing personal data on people they said we will investigate they store that in the break room with a have lunch not secured any police officer be thrown in jail so
the criminal- code has more cars than agents. host: so now to invite people to ask you questions. texture comments and questions. 15 percent corporate minimum tax who does the impact of the most quick. >> corporate taxes are very important because it's a way of hiding who pays as the corporations spend about 70 percent of their money on salaries the average of studies a 70 percent of the corporate income taxes paid by workers and lower pay they
have some left-wing groups think it's only 25 percent but not zero. 70 percent when you tax the corporation what with the company have done with? they would have done payroll. sometimes in some companies they could raise prices there's not a lot of competition. so you have inflation andat higher prices and so consumers pay the higher corporate income tax or more likely and in more cases it is due process wages. we saw this on20 the republicans cut taxes in 2017 and in 2019 we had the highest corporate rate in the world at 35 percent higher than communist china, higher than the european average. we took it down and 21 and what happened? strong economic growth unemployment at three.5 percent the lowest in u 50 years because they were hiring people and paying people more and the median
income not the average bill gates making a million dollars 4400-dollar increase in pay and compensation that year alone six.8 percent increase that is what happens when you cut the corporate rate unfortunately biden wants to reverse engineer 18 and 19 before covid and you will see workers getting paid less and not pay increases and everybody has thehe utility bill the losses to pay corporate income taxes that is passed through to the utility bills so you will see to pay the biden taxon corporation the utility bill will go up to payor
what he tells you is being paid by somebody else the only reason to have the corporate tax but it's interesting we did a series of quotation the majority of americans understand it is lower wages and higher prices and the majority of americans know it is less competitive for china and the rest of the world it is damaging to workers and to the idea of american competitiveness. host: our guest from americans for tax reform here to talk about the framework yesterday the first call from sterling virginia life for democrats here on with grover norquist. >> what i don't understand why the c-span give the snake oil salesman a platform? he has been on c-span countless times. host: we have invited him tost days to your question or comment?
>>caller: why do you feel it is necessary to basically not go after billionaire tax cheats or billionaire on —- billionaires that can basically pay no taxes at all? you are allowing the billionaire tax cheats to get away without paying anything you come on your show and pretend you are more concerned about the little guy being taxed and basically all you do is protect thoseal that are wealthy and continue to and rich you for years. >>caller: the first idea was i don't want to hear things i don't agree with i don't want to learn anything is not have people on television that disagree. that is never happening.
that's never happening. but your question asks share the irs require that people who owed taxes pay it? yes. we talked earlier about spying on people and looking at the money going in and out of bank accounts and cash when they went after them they found less than 7 percent had any problem at all in one of the problems as they had reported you put in 10000 because they hadn't so it's not even clear there was any taxes owed but not even a question on 94 percent of whatth they were looking at. so they did go after many people who have nothing wrong and look at folks to try to make sure they pay their taxes as they should. be helpful if they were made simpler that is true and it would be very helpful but as a mentioned earlier under law
the irs is supposed to come up with ideas andt proposals for every year and for 20 years they have not followed that law and it made suggestions you think they would now what makes for a complications and things different but i mentioned earlier when you tax the corporation they are not people they pay salaries and if you take money from them and the biden administration was to take i'm sorry $675 billion and even if it's only half of that is taken out of the pockets as opposed to 70 percent that is the better number than that is $300 billion less pay and people not getting hired directly heading not those
making $400,000 per year but the average citizen why you had tax by pretending the company is paying it when they raise taxes on the grocery store do you think the grocery store pays that? or do you pay it when you buy a tariff? you do or do the workers suffer because they cannot be paid as much because the storeca doesn't have as much money because biden took it? biden is it taking the money way for the grocery store but out of the pockets of the people who work at the grocery store and of the consumers who buy things at the grocery store and see the prices go up. host: brooklyn new york independent line. >>
>>caller: you are arguing somehow i don't care about the deficit i'm always delighted to speak but the true cost of government the deficit shows spending is so high that the politicians are embarrassed to take as much money as they are spending and if they did they would lose the next election so they borrow instead but the true damage the government does is total spending that's the money takenth out of the productive economy that is invested with the purpose to be sustainable. the private sector a sustainable growth because it creates more wealth than it puts in until companies exist or when people work they produce more even then when they take out so there's money to build the factories as well as pay their salaries that sustainable growth when they take a dollar from you is not sustainable it is gone it is
gone today and the guy who spends it. what you really want to do is focus on total government spending. not a question of the deficit spend less. what they really mean they would like to raise taxes on people. >> . host: also he was alluded to in what it did for the deficit. >> and did a number of things with strong economic growth and the challenge with the biden tax andea spend proposal they areda designed to do tremendous damage these are a series of tax increases coming straight out and when you look is not that we are prettier or nicer that we have more investment per person and looking at this wonderful
machinery that when you are in a factory are producing something that's what makes people more productive that have better cars better checks or planes those make people more productive and what you get paid more in the united states than someplace else which has less investment and less capital and these are taxes straight out of place savings straight out of the 401(k) so that will be takenn to the cleaners with the tax increases and that's it people are planning on retiring from more than half of americans have an a ira or 401(k) and some people have both and is a tax increase directly they go at what is in your life savings and it's very expensive. >>caller: hello.
you just answer the file these people are brain-dead they are selling to consumers so what do we do to raise prices? this is important so right now there is a plan to get every illegal 1 million per year and all of the democrats your children and grandchildren will pay for it all these people are brain-dead they better start using their head because her children and grandchildren. >> to be fair to some of the people who think corporations pay taxes instead of collect taxes from workers from consumers in higher prices and get money from people who invest their 401(k) into companies and then have to pay them less if they are heavily taxed the tax collector spend a lot of time trying to fool
people into thinking that somebody else is paying these taxes they intend to introduce taxes on the rich they wereh. going to have a tax on wealth they seem to have backed off on that the taxing wealth or savings is actually unconstitutional at the federal level and when the 13 states got together and said we will have the constitution , they were very concerned about the federal government's ability to tax so they were pretty specific what they did and did not want but on taxes they were very specific you can only do this and when the government said we want to tax people's income they did try it but is not constitutional and then heas said will pass the constitutional amendments you can do it if you want to tax their assets their 401(k) or their house he really have to get a constitutional amendment to do that which they will not
do which is why they put that will tax aside to start by saying we will tax the rich when they say that means they haven't finished the sentence we will tax the rich first and then you see you may remember the amt put in 1969 to hit 155 people who had $1 million were paying zero taxes because they put their money into municipal bonds that the government subsidizes by not taxing them so they were getting a lower rate investing in seated cities legal but that's not fair you have this money should pay taxes so they came up with the amt only from 155 niners it was had about 30 million when the republicans reduced it largely got rid of it with the trump tax cut will be interesting to
see if the democrats try to bring that back at the end of the day but that was attacks on which people that was growing up and 30 million attacks on long-distance unsurpassed past the spanish-american war and was only supposed to hit which people because 150 years ago filipino that can make long-distance phone calls are those that could afford $4000 phones now of course everybody has a phone and the federal excise tax you are paying up into a couple years ago was paid by every american high and low income starting is a tax on which people and became a tax on everyone the income taxes put in only 3 percent for get hit you had to make $11 million to pay the top rate of 7 percent $11 million i know there's some people
watching today who are paying more than 7 percent because the income tax was sold to people it's just the rich. >> does it also includes that surtax for the stock buybacks quick. >> yes they have a higher rate on rich people which over time the democrats keep coming down until he had more and more americans is what they have done every time they tax which people and then they bring it down to get everybody out it is the opening bid to get into your wallet but they want to say it's not you with the other guy and not taxing you today. today it is him tomorrow you will get it the stock buyback is just on if i want to invest in the company the one i like is the one that buys its own stock if you have an extra $1 million what would you do
and you don't have a factory you are building right away if you invested in yourself that tells you the company trustis themselves. the reason why it is a stupid tax because the democrats are not happy when billions of dollars their pout policies have been kept overseas they were told keep your money in japan and china and europe pay taxes and bring it back. and then under the republicans say we go to the same system of the rest of the world united states and ethiopia were the three countries with a worldwide tax system. we tax what happens here and ifac you are in many overseas and bring it back, good. bring it back. unfortunately they are going back and punishing people who want to bring money back to the united states. not a wise move. host: so that philosophical
argument from the senator majority whip on the senate floor to talk about the idea of a wealth tax and the philosophy and i will get your response. >> we have too many families struggling in america and they are in poverty. isn't that a shame and a great country like this you cannot afford for food for your children and a roof over your head facing eviction and the basics to send them to school with a good pair of shoes in the basics and it's a shame but now that we've done something about it with the american rescue plan without a single republican vote. not one. so our tax policy hopes working in low income families particularly with children. and if we can do and i hope we can, we can engineer the tax cut to make it permanent or at least for a number of years predictable to help families.
i just heard president biden in new jersey speak about infrastructure and build back better reconciliation plan. he said in the state of new jersey, the child tax credit that wevo enacted without a single republican vote helping us has reduce child poverty by 36 percent. some saying my state of not new jersey and as practical results come if we have a way with reconciliation, we will give the largestst tax cut in the history of this country to middle income and working families. a exactly the opposite of what the senator from kentucky just said. it would be the biggest tax increase in history. there will be i forto those who can afford to pay it. that means the same people that get a benefit four years ago from the trump republican tax policy. host: that is the argument.
what is the response? >> the people who benefited from the trump republican tax cut are the millions who got jobs taking unemployment down between half percent now back up because of the policies and also to threaten tax increases that will continue to slow economic growth and keep unemployment down. under the democrat obama and biden it is the weakest recovery since world war ii the country has ever had because they spend money and raise taxes and the economy grew poorly. the best way to help someone there were crocodile tears from then senator we have poor people. we had a policy under the democrats that spent over $20 trillion curing poverty.
$20trillion curing poverty. if you read the speech by lbj about how he would care poverty by writing checks and has not gone down as a result of all the money spent. you don't help somebody by giving the money instead of creating an opportunity for jobs. whwhat americans want and the senator from illinois says that he t wants to help thee people then they should be allowed to get out of the way and let them help themselves get aes job and was on the he's killing jobs is all of his taxes. illinois is an example of failure. it is estate people leave because senator durbin lived there and people like him raise taxes and drive businesses and jobs out of illinois and that is why you have the poverty they have created in illinoisn that is completely unnecessary. we talk about the federal
level. i just had a conversation on the phone with people from nine different state legislators and governors that are all moving to phase out the income tax. so they do the opposite of what the democrats are doing. they want to raise taxes and welfare.e on we have seen that before and it cost a lot of money and does not help people permanently. . . . .
that's going to be very, very helpful so if you want jobs, illinois is not the way to do it. tax and spend doesn't work, go to illinois and look at the u-haul trucks leaving the state. >> but spring and vanessa from missouri, americans for tax reform. >> looking at spending, i don't think i hear anything about the drug plan but it's up to like $655 a year, lower income
seniors, people who don't qualify for medicaid are stuck having to pay this penalty for they cannot have a drug plan so social security claims this is put into effect to encourage them on a drug plan but 655 year many people are struggling to pay the penalty for they can't have a drug plan. if you are a extremely low plan and file for medicaid, medicaid will pay that penalty for them and that doesn't make sense to me, they keep saying medicaid needs more money. other people are not asking for more handouts, is just things we already have.
>> when the government gets into the running programs, one problem is government programs are monopolies and works well in monopolies do not serve customers very well. the reason the free market work is there are lots of grocery stores and barbershops and people competing, government make a one-size-fits-all program in the country of 330 million people person very much one-size-fits-all in a country as large and diverse and wonderful as ours so how do you run a monopoly government better? hopefully get more people out there and do things in different ways and have different choices so yes, government runs programs poorly. >> north carolina, gerald, hello. >> hello? >> you are on, go ahead mech hello?
>> yeah. >> i like to comment but my photos not working very well. >> we can hear you, go ahead with your comment or question -- >> unless you make money and all the legislation, a suggestion about corporations, they pay taxesta on profit, not on ordiny expenses. what would be going on is with the tax on the corporations, they would be sharing the income for shareholders. it will not keep corporation from operating properly. >> thank you.
>> the private sector can't press money. government can press money but when individuals earn money and the government takes some of it, they don't have it. when businesses create wealth in the government takes it, it's not there for salary or hire new people. government kicks in and takes money that would otherwise go to consumers and lowerer cost or workers and higher pay and this is a real problem and one reason a series of tax increases are devastating. we don't know whether he will go back, hein is talking $100 billn on have money want to tax people to quit smoking int the
average smoker makes about $40000 a year so if they go back to that on biden's list of things he wanted to take your money for because that's a direct tax on their income. understand that congressman point out save maybe helped back out on that, it's a huge attack on lower income people and this challenge we have, we need more jobs, income and the government attacks people's jobs and takes the money welfare which isn't a job it becomes problematic but as i started to say, we can see what works and doesn't. there from texas from those states raise taxes and welfare are not doing as well. people move from new york to
florida. new york is a little smaller than florida population, the new york government is twice as expensive as the florida government. the roads were conformistt clo, off government are a lot better than new york but they spend twice as much money the government failure in new york rather than limit government in florida and part of that is people move to florida, they leave new york and it's helpful to see what works and what doesn't. people moving with no state income tax from states reducing or state income taxes, there's really impressive work out there at the state level but the democrats will pass bridget, killed jobs and so economic growth, that's what they do at the state level, governor ducey and arizona, significant cuts 92
and a half%, brenda santos in florida every year in that state, spending in florida has not gone up faster than wages in 20 years, the only state that that.y >> we only have a few more minutes so a few more calls, brian, brian go ahead. >> talking about the federal spending, this administration is like an 18-year-old with a brand-new credit card, they want to raise the debtt ceiling, who talk aboutta inflation, it's an all time high. prep attacks, talk about taxes, you got biden saint this administration will not tax paper to make under 400,000 a year. the truth is, big corporation will not wake up tomorrow and say i don't mind paying an extra 1 million or billion this year. what's going to happen, price goes up prices of sales tax goes
up, it doesn't matter how you cut it. common sense tells you that you are paying more taxes. we are going to be just like florida, i'm going to do my part to help make that happen because it's the only way that works. >> okay, brian in ohio, thank you. >> one of the problems we have inflation rising, the cost of gasoline spike tremendously. there were declines in the cost are lookingcause we for more energy and fracking. biden decided to destroy the pipelines which would have given us low-cost energy for 100 years out of canada and we are going to be paying higher prices we drive to visit relatives in thanksgiving and christmas because biden decided he wanted to destroy that pipeline and wanted to put people out of work or working or were working, drilling for oil and then he went over to the arabia, he
damaged our capacity what the price of oil going up because of his policies and making russia o which in saudi arabia, helping the americans consumer and when you do these things and spent too much money or raise taxes, he decided to destroy infrastructure, biden has destroyed more than he's built when he took the pipeline out so it is a tragedy and of course the middle class is getting kicked by biden's inflation which is over 5% when he walked in the door, a little more than 1% so it's all since he walked in and changed policy. >> marylandg independent line. >> grant money and "good morning america". wait to start. i followed you a long time you set mix statements today, your openly misleading the people -- >> name went.
>> pertaining the pipeline from canada, that was not going to provide with lower cost, that was all taken to the coast and exploited, that was never going to enter the emerging-market. pertaining to the states with income taxes for mistakes relink the income tax, heavily from the federal government from everything construction in gooding florida, the reality is he states that don't have income taxes, they have little social safety net more people could barely take the great provide clean water in louisiana and barely provide anything in mississippi so he pointed out a state like illinois or california you look at what they provide for the people, they don't require funds to do that so these publican but state legislatures are destroying the
states, bring down our country and you are going to brag about the trump tax cuts? the reason income tax you refer to that you set was inclined to hit the majority of american -- i'm holding my daughter, i apologize. the reason you set those taxes take the american majority, the classwork led by people like you against the majority of americans while you everyday. >> okay, last call for this -- go ahead. >> we know it works and doesn't work and we list states spending and reducing taxes and the ones that have got rid of the income taxes to work and invest, that's where the jobs are being created and people who don't have jobs. i get a kick out of people who care about poor people butof hae job creation fortress how you get not poorio in america or
anywhere else. reducing taxes government those raising them, people are moving to those state reducing taxes, limiting the government so you can see what works or doesn't between various states. it's very helpful to look at that but you can also look at the united states in regard to low taxes. we are successful and create higher taxesd to is rated under obama, jobs are not created at the same rate wasn't even close to reagan's job creations and wealth creation and income creation or trump so look at what works or raising taxes, raising taxes takes savings out of people's 401ks or iras. you save a corporation, you lose iras and 401ks, reducing the pay they get, reducing to pay increases and people who get to work and you raise the prices of
goods and services. it creates more problems than south in our government and all level could be more efficient and effective and less corrupt if it had less money and less access to other people's bank accounts. we don'tpe need the government o snoop on everybody, the american people are overwhelmingly against all the efforts to snoop into people's bank account which is like democrats are backing off so quickly on that. they haven't said no, biden wants to look at your bank account. pelosi wants to soak just schumer. he will be back if you're not careful. >> guest organization and tax reform, apr.com. ask for your time. >> good to be with you. ♪♪ >> american history tv saturday on c-span2. exploring people and events that tells the american story.
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