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tv   Arizona Election Officials Testify on 2020 Election Audit - Part 2  CSPAN  October 13, 2021 9:15am-10:05am EDT

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will take a brief bathroom break. the committee stands in recess for three minutes. [recess]
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[inaudible conversations] >> the committee will come to order. the gentleman from georgia, mr. clyde, is recognized. >> thank you, madam chair. it's no secret that this country bases an uphill battle to restoring in our election. democrats claimed that
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republicans didn't win races in 2000, and repeat the big lie that russia stole the election and that repeated for five years. and now they're looking at those that dare ask in the election process. when do we stop pointing fingers and carry out our duty to ensure our constituents can trust our elections verifying that all of those are legal and cast by eligible voters. building trust does not start by harassing a private company doing a job that it was contracted to do. nor does it start by violating the 10th amendment or rule of law by stepping in with the feds know best attitude. the federal government does not and should not have a stay how the state of arizona carry out its elections or prohibit from
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carrying out an audit on the election law or destroying trust at the polling booth. we need less federal involvement in our elections not more. and specifically for today's hearing in arizona deserve to cast votes with confidence and trust with the electoral process and outcome irrespective of which party wins. and those that are ill leat must be set aside and we should not allow any legal vote be canceled by an illegal vote. remind my friends on both sides of the aisle and witnesses, the fact we can take $100 in $1 bills and count them many times, and they are 100. and if any of those are counterfeit, then you don't
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have 100 in legal tender. that's the counting of legal votes. illegal and counterfeit votes must be thrown out followed in arizona, georgia and all elections. thankfully my home state of georgia fixed problems such as signature discrepancies, off hour ballot counting and unsecured drop boxes so that voters can trust the process. i'll do everything in my power to ensure that washington keeps its hands off georgia's elections laws and our state's 10th amendment rights are not seized by the federal government. with that i'll yield my time to mr. biggs so he can keep them out of arizona. >> thank you, and this question for vice-chairman gates and mr. -- and it gets on thematic thing
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we were talking about. i'm trying to understand how the auditors, you hired or the auditors that worked for the state senate, how are they able to do any type of validation of the 2020 election results if the data base was actually cleared before they got started? >> and again, that-- well, again, that's something that i would prefer if we can provide a follow-up answer to you on that, but again, this was all available and i believe, i believe there may have been a public records request. i'm not sure if there was on that, but you know, we can-- >> but you had actually cleared the service and backed them up to the archives, you said. so, just to change slightly. the auditors hired by you all to do the audit, they were not.
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if cc certified forensic auditors? >> they were from-- they're certified to operate on these machines. >> and their voting system, from voting system laboratories. >> they're not auditors, because they aren't certified auditors because the fcc doesn't certify-- . i'm going to ask you yes or no question. >> you and i can bounce around here. the fcc does to the certify full forensic auditors at all? >> i -- i believe that's -- oh, it's that the eac that certifies them. >> eac doesn't certify full forensic auditors. >> that term full forensic auditors-- >> they don't certify what they certify deals with the machines
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themselves and the tablators and whether they can operate on the machines? >> and whether it's connected to the internet-- >> and without objection, mr. stanton is authorized to participate in today's hearing. >> thank you for allowing me to participate in today's important hearing. i'm disappointed that mr. logan declined to appear here today to address questions how the cyber ninjas, were authorized, and i suspect he doesn't have good answers that so-called audit was a fraud from the beginning. he has a history of spreading baseless theories about the election and maybe he was to spread those by mr. trump's followers in arizona. >> november 19th, 2020,
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mr. logan tweeted, dominion servers in german were grabbed by the good guys in germany. unquote, dominion makes election series. >> and mr. logan was referring to the theory that the u.s. military seized dominion servers in europe following the election. mr. becker, were deminion dominion servers seized in former after the election. >> there's little to support, including the idea there were dominion servers in germany. >> according to usa today, the u.s. army denied such a raid and companies didn't have servers in germany, unquote. the week before january 6th,
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mr. logan prepared a document for the recently sanctioned trump lawyer sidney powell who want today object to the certification of the election. the claim was that dominion's core software, originates from intellectual property from maddock founded in communist venezuela with links to chavez, unquote. mr. becker, you're an expert in this field and have studied elections, are you aware of any evidence to suggest that dominion's core software originates from a company with ties to dictator hugo chavez. >> there's absolutely no connection between dominion or any other software in the united states and hugo chavez or any other in venezuela. >> even the trump campaign knew this conspiracy was baseless. accord to go an internal memo prepared for the campaign in
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mid november. 2020, trump campaign lawyers stated that dminion has no direct ties to venezuela and while the fraudulent audit in arizona was taking place, mr. logan starred in a film called, quote, the deep rig, which sought to prove that the 2020 election was rigged against donald trump. in the film mr. logan states without any supporting evidence that the cia or former members of the intelligence agency may be spreading disinformation around election fraud. >> mr. becker, any supporting theory that the officer spread disinformation about election fraud? and these are groundless yet mr. logan publicly espoused them. if this was the person, the trump loyalist in the senate believed this was the right person for the job, it's pretty clear their goal was not to
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conduct an honest audit. this, if mr. logan were here today we'd ask him whether he still believes these conspiracy theories and ask him how he could public conduct a fair and impartial audit when he's already made up his mind on the basis of debunked independent conspiracy theories nearly eight months ago, we can't ask these questions because mr. logan, unfortunately, declined this committee's invitation to defend his work under oath. i yield back. >> thank you. the gentleman yields back and before we close i want to offer mr. biggs an opportunity to offer any closing remarks you may have. mr. biggs, you are now recognized. >> thank you, madam chair, as an old trial lawyer i want to know how long you'll give me. and my flight doesn't leave for
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hours, i could go on. thank you, i agree with so much on what colleagues on my side of the oil have been saying, this is an unnecessary encroachment into arizona's travails if i can put it that way over the audit and our election system. the constitution leaves that to us. if there was kind of -- something that was materially violentive of -- violative of civil rights. i'll go through something important, not the least of which is the fact that in september of this year, excuse me, last year, september of last year, before the election took place, polling data showed that only 22% of americans
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thought that the presidential election in-- of 2020 would be free and fair. only 22%. that was consistent with polling in 2012, 2008, 2004, and the last time that my democrat colleagues believed that they'd legitimately lost an election was 1988. that's what the polling-- that's what the polling indicated. what we've heard called the big lie over and over today by our friends from the left and the democrats is something that they set the gold standard for in 2016 and for the last four years. the question of the audit, as i
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mentioned early on was bizarre to me because my colleagues across the aisle want it both ways. so they repeatedly, as one of them said, it is shameful, it is shameful that we had this audit. they kept going on and on, the last gentleman just ripped doug logan. i don't know mr. logan. i don't know his history. they ripped that. they ripped the dark money. the funding sources, they have problems with. they ripped everything they possibly could about the audit and at the same time that they were attacking the audit, they simultaneously argued that it buttressed their position as to who won the election.
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i view that as specious, inconsistent, fallacious. i was asked who won in arizona, i don't know because there were statutory issues with this election. no election is ever perfect, but in my mind, we've not resolved the issues that took place at this time. i had more questions to ask. we don't have time to ask more questions. i'm going to go without asking those questions and maybe submit them in writing and maybe get answers in writing. there is so much underlying this and this notion that this was a fraudulent effort to get at the root this have election, i think, is-- that's abhorrent in and of
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itself. we should have welcomed an audit i regrettedly in my view, watching from outside, it certainly looked like the board was obfuscating and trying to prevent an audit. my recommendation early on was just do a full and complete audit. get it over and done with, resolve it. that's what i said in november. resolve that issue. put this thing to bed and here we sit almost a full year later, and people still have questions about election integrity. i don't know how we're going to resolve that, but i do know that this continued. this continued antagonism of this audience, it stinks, that's laud ludicrous.
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i would hope that we could have audits, conducted statutorily by maricopa county. that wasn't really an audit. someone would say, that's a complete audit. but it isn't. it's meant for a statistical reference point and as mr. bennett. former secretary of state of arizona pointed out. it's simply was not even with a random sample. i had people who worked in polling locations who told me that came up and said they were concerned. i had people who worked on those boxes who said they were concerned. i think there's legitimate concerns. i'm not sure that the audit revealed those, but i can tell you what, both sides are further entrenched today than they were six, eight months ago
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in arizona and that's a shame. that's a shame. i don't know how we're going to resolve that. i'm going to yield one moment to paul from arizona. >> senator chairwoman. i'd like to ask unanimous consent from democratic senators and myself and several articles for the record. >> without objection. >> last thing i want to ask that hit home, mr. biggs made a point, is 52 u.s. 271 passed by democratic majority over 50 years ago. it supports audits and encourages audits and their findings. there's plenty of unanticipated questions here. i talked about it early, trust
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is a series of promises kept the way you keep trust of the american people and arizonans is be transparent. that's all the facts and we look back at my testimony on january 5th and that's what i asked for. i asked for a 10-day moratorium to let any state have 10 days to look at an audit and do it right. and please, please take the time to watch chain, this isn't a republican or democratic issue, this is an american issue to get it right. if i cast my ballot who i cast it for, it goes appropriately and electronics, hand manipulation, doesn't skew that at inspect. that's all we're asking. from that i love the conversation back and forth, but i don't think that people are bad like intending. i think that, you know, even
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mr. raskin introduced legislation because you saw electronic manipulation and problems and goes both ways, whether it be 2016, 2018, 2020, there's plenty to go around. why not be transparent. that's how you gain the trust of the american people. madam chairman, appreciate the intelligence. >> and madam chair and i have some articles-- >> for the purpose of putting items in the record. >> thank you so much. >> one is a piece from february 26th, 2021, arizona republic. another one from representative bull locks dated february, 2021 washington examiner. one from glenn greenwald, september 27th. one a letter from madam chair
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to honorable tray gouddy. another from representative jerry conley dated january 29th, 2018 and the last one from the baltimore sun dated january 5th, 2017. and jamie raskin, electoral college, challenge for trump. >> and we're told that mr. keller logged on. five minutes. >> thank you, madam chair and thank you to all of our witnesses. before addressing the subject of the hearing i'd like to take a moment to give us oversight power and any of the numerous crisis facing our country, be it rampant inflation, the crisis on our southern border, the irresponsible way in which the biden administration pulled out of afghanistan, skyrocketing energy prices or
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the staggering national debt to name a few. the price of natural gas alone is at a 10-year high. this must be addressed before winter sets in and americans have to make difficult financial decisions, just to heat their homes. the integrity of our elections is directly linked to the integrity of our democratic system of government at the local, state, or federal level. >> while proper election protocols is essential, the matter of arizona election audit is fundamentally a state issue. it's the second time in the course of a week, that this committee has raised issues in state's jurisdictions into the federal arena, rather than attacking a private company for fulfilling its contract and conducting an election audit, this committee should be directing any objections about
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the audit to its originators, the arizona state senate. one thing that all voters regardless of party affiliation can agree upon is that we must have election integrity. that's the only way to ensure trust in our elections, and faith that our elected officials have been righteously elected and confidence in our government. i would just again, encourage the majority party to take a look at the issues that lie squarely within the jurisdiction of the oversight and reform committee. believe me, there's plenty of federal agencies that need oversight and reform. we should be focused on those and the states where they have issues should focus on making sure that they address those issues. we certainly aren't going to call in, you know, the arizona department of revenue and
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investigate how they handle their state income tax collection. if we have an issue at the federal level, we should be dealing with that, but issues that are within the state's jurisdiction we should go back to those states and follow the constitution and have them address those issuesment with that, madam chair, i yield back the balance of my time-- >> i'll take your time. >> i yield to mr. biggs. >> thanks, mr. keller, appreciate that and ask a couple of the questions that i didn't think i was able to ask. i was looking at your website called just the facts.vote and on myth number four found that it said that the county does not change its-- that the county does not change its election management system. that's false that the county doesn't change the passwords. and i take that that you regularly change passwords for the servers? >> i'm not sure what you mean
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by regularly, but it's something that is changed. so would you then be surprised, i guess, that the records from cypher clearly indicate that all the accounts have the same password and the user name is changed and not been changed since the server was set up? >> again, i don't have that in front of me, so i'm not sure the basis of that is. >> if that were true, that would be concerning about cyber security, would it not? >> no, no, that would not be concerning about cyber security, because congressman as you understand, ems is know the-- as relates to cyber security. it's not connected to the internet in any way. it's an air gap system. we did two audits that confirmed that these were used in the 2020 general election were never connected to the internet. >> and that's your assertion. >> that is, yes. >> okay, all right. >> based upon certified tokes
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that took a look at that as well. >> let's talk about paper for a second. myth eight, vote security paper does not have special coding to prevent bleed through. >> are you saying that only vote secure paper was used in the 2020 election. >> and it's a fact that you could have bleed-throughs and that's why we were sure we redesigned the ballot if there was a race on one side of the paper it wouldn't bleed through and show up on the election on the other side. >> and i hoped to be able to ask mr. bennett that. >> gentleman yields back. mr. fallon logged in, i'm told. do you wish to ask questions. >> yes, madam chair. >> you're recognized. >> and i dream of the day that we have hearings in this esteemed committee on the crisis, not even crisis, but ka
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stas catastrophe from the southern border and made all 49 states border states. and i'd yield my time to the gentleman from arizona. you heard from vice-chairman gates, can you explain to us about the paper that you found in the audit, that the auditors found in the audit? >> what i was informed of is that there appeared to be 10 different sources or types of papers used for the ballots. i personally witnessed the fact that on some ballots there was a fair amount of bleed-through from one side to the other. but as mr. gates mentioned, one of the things that you're supposed to do in setting up your election in arizona is align the ballots so that if
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there is bleed through from front to back or vice versa that no corresponding offense are affected and it's my understanding that even though we found bleed-through we did not find that bleed-through overlapping an oval on the other side. >> so to your knowledge there was no encroachment from one side to the other. >> that's my understanding. >> thank you. can you add on here to the-- whether there was any issues with regard to these-- of same password and user names in certain servers? >> i can simply repeat the testimony of mr. ben cotton, the ceo of cypher, the company that looked at the equipment who said that their evidence showed that the county used common user names and passwords, and that i think there was more than one, but as
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required by state law and election procedures manuals in arizona, they did not use unique user names and pass words so that if there was a question related to who did what in the election management system, not a cyber security issue as mr. gates mentioned, but the purpose for having unique user names and pass words is so if you have things happen within the election, you can tell who did it and he said that the use of common user names and passwords make that impossible to detect. >> so you wouldn't know, necessarily, who was even logging in because the users names are not discrete. >> correct. >> explain to us the election procedure manual and its relationship vis-a-vis statute. >> the elections procedure manual is specifically authorized in state law. it is under the direction of the secretary of state's office, which i occupied for
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six years. i did three of them during my six years. it's adopted in the off election years, also has to have the consent of the attorney general and the governor to sign off on the election procedures manual. >> it has the effect of law as dictated in state statute itself. so if there's an issue with compliance, with the procedures manual, that's a statutory violation because it's a law? >> yes, yes, sir. so my understanding is that the senate president attempted to reach out and attempted to work with the county, but that for whatever reason, an impasse was reached and the subpoenas were
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issued and the ultimate issue is compliance and whether there was content on the part of the board in responding to those subpoenas. >> well, as i mentioned earlier, i had met personally with the senate president numerous times, telling her that if there were-- if there were serious issues or questions that needed to be answered, i wanted to help get those answers. and she felt that-- well, and i'll back up a little bit because the two additional audits we did after the election was over were really done to answer questions that had been given to us by the arizona senate. >> thank you, i'll thank the gentle lady. >> the gentleman yields back and i now recognize myself.
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oh, people are coming in and logging in at the end here. our good friend committee member jackie spear is now recognized for five minutes for questions. >> thank you, madam chair and i have been on for a good part, i'm also in the middle of an intelligence committee hearing, but i did want to get back on since there are still questions that need to be answered. let me ask you, mr. bennett. you've been-- do you condemn attacks on elected officials and representatives? >> of course, i've had death threats myself. >> so you know that chairman sellers and supervisor gates have received threats against their safety and the district of columbia experienced violence on numerous occasions following the weeks in the election. i was one of the members in the house gallery lying on the
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floor when the shots rang out thinking that i was going to die that day so making sure that we quell violence is critical. with that in mind, it's very important that wii-- we identify those organizations that fought to inflame tensions. one of those groups is look ahead america. on september 24th, this group held a rally in arizona nearly half the attendees were proud boys, which is an organization identified as far right neo fascist group. have you ever heard of the organization yes america. >> yes, ma'am. >> and now this group has been associated with violent hard right activities for a long time? >> i'm not aware of that, ma'am. >> the group tweeted that it would participate in a conference hosted by nick fuentes, a well-known neo-nazi.
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you're currently listed on look ahead america's quote, leadership unquote, page as it is -- as its state chairman. according to the page, you are the fifth highest ranking individual in this organization. i'm kind of astonished that you would be associated with a group such as this, let alone take a leadership role and your biography on the website notes you serve as quote, senate liaison for maricopa county 2020 election audit and mr. bennett, you said a few weeks ago, you are' on a quote, leave of absence from this organization focused on election review, is that true? >> yes, i was working on a voter registration project in arizona known as az51, connected with look ahead america who wanted to help that process in arizona and az-51 decided to transition the voter
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registration project over to look ahead arizona, which was formed by look ahead america. so, i'm with look ahead arizona, which is an affiliate of look ahead america, but i have been on leave of absence as i've been contributing my time to the audit without pay. >> all right. so you've been trying to establish some independence, is that correct? >> independence from whom? >> from the organization, since you're on a leave of absence. >> i was already involved in the audit, congresswoman, when the az-51 voter registration project transitioned to look ahead arizona. i'm not trying to establish independence. i already was involved in the audit when that transition occurred. >> all right, but in september 7th of arizona article, i
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consulted with matt who does he need to talk to around the state and hook ahead arizona and voter registration, matt i believe is the executive director of look ahead america. it seems difficult that you could claim that you are on a leave of absence from the group, but are still consulting with it and actually recommending who the group's executive director should be meeting with. so i really almost concerned that as an elected official, as someone who you admittedly say you've had death threats, to all of us and to the arizona county supervisors who have experienced death threats, why the engagement with groups like the proud boys who were part of this effort in arizona prior to the election, would somehow not be recognized by you as
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antithetical to quelling violence and in effect encouraging it? and with that, madam chair, i will yield back. >> the gentle lady yields back and i believe that concludes all the members that want to ask question and i'll proceed with my closing remarks. i want to thank the witnesses today for helping our committee understand the facts about the so-called audit in arizona and all of my colleagues who participated, in particular, thank you to mr. sellers and to mr. gates, and to the other elected officials who endured months of abuse, insults and threats for simply doing your job. thank you for having the courage to speak the truth today and to testify before the committee. the committee had also wanted to hear from cyber ninja, but doug logan refused to appear
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today to testify under oath. that is probably because the facts about his audit is so damning. this audit was designed to find fraud, but it didn't find any fraud. it was backed by millions of dollars, $6.7 million from partisan dark money groups and it spent a year studying the election. but in the end, cyber ninjas came up with absolutely nothing, no fraud. no missing votes from trump, no change in the election outcome. so now even after this huge audit, some of my colleagues are refusing to accept even their own biased audit. claiming that there's still uncertainty about the election in arizona. donald trump is even claiming
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the audit showed he won. a nonpartisan fact checker rated that claim as absolutely false, and gave him the designation of pants on fire and i ask permission to put the statement and the article about it in the record. and so let's be clear, donald trump did not win in arizona and he did not win the election. he lost, and in the cyber ninja audit, he lost, but unless trump and his admirers are willing to admit this truth and respect the will of the american voters, our democracy is at serious risk as mr. sellers and mr. gates testified. the barrage of lies about the 2020 election has inflicted grave damage already. these lies are undermining public confidence in our elections and they are
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fostering efforts across the country to hold more partisan audits and pass the anti-democratic laws to press votes and allow our elected officials to overturn elections when their preferred candidates lose. free and fair elections are the foundation of our democracy, whether you are a republican or a democrat. all of us should care about these threats to our elections. this committee will use every tool at its disposal to fight back against the lies and conspiracy theories that have been allowed to grow for too long in our country. i ask like-minded democrats and republicans to join us in this fight. we all have an obligation to stand up for the democratic values that we all hold so dear. with that, i in closing want to thank our panelists for their
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remarks and commend my colleagues for their participation. without objection all members have five legislative days with which to submit materials and submit additional written questions for the witnesses to the chair, which will be forwarded to the witnesses for their response. i ask our witnesses to please respond as promptly as you're able. this meeting is adjourned. [gavel] >> [inaudible conversations]
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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]
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[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]
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you have a shot at winning the grand prize of $5000. entries must be received before january 20, 2022. for competition rules, tips or just how to get started visit our website at studentcam.org. >> here on c-span2 we take you to a virtual house veterans affairs committee hearing looking at the recruitment of veterans by private extremist groups. live coverage here on c-span2 should start in just a moment. [inaudible conversations] >> josh is back with us, senior political columnist at the "national journal" where he is against the grain column and house podcast the same name. it was last week in against the grain that you sometimes dig into president biden's following polling numbers. just how worried should democrats be about thosed numbs right now? >> they should be very worried.
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his average job approval according to the 538 polling averages about 44%. that's lower than every president at this point in their administration in the lastni 50 years other than donald trump. it's a double whammy because the president is losing support among independents. 30's and most of these polls. you also have an intensity of opposition among republicans and even independents, a deep disapproval from a sizable plurality of voters. you have on top of it a lot of evidence that democrats are disillusioned as well. covid is not going away, or it is taking a while to go away, the economy is facing a lot of headwinds. this white house a couple of months ago thought that they would be running and politicking on a roaring back economy and covid going away. you are seeing the opposite.
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inflation is a real issue. not only inflation, but some of the after effects of covid will stock shortages in supplies. stores cutting hours. stores cutting customer surveys. i've talked with some democrats who are starting to use the term malaise in describing the public mood. that is not a good sign. it was attached to jimmy carter's presidency and not one the biden white house wants to repeat. host: the chart of president biden's job approval numbers from january and february through the latest numbers. you can see the trend line going down and underwater starting the end of august, early september. historically, this is not the usual end of the honeymoon phase of a new president. this is something different? guest: polls go up and down and there are certainly -- midterms
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are over a year away there's plenty of time for the presidency to rebound. one of the more concerning elements of the polling is that unlike president trump and president obama, who could rely on a rock solid base, 80% or 90% of democrats and republicans during the obama and trump residencies saying that they would support them no matter what. you're not seeing the same degree of support with president biden. we will leave this to go live to a house veterans affairs committee hearing on the recruitment of veterans via violent the treatment groups. live coverage on c-span2. >> please make sure you or your staff connect contact our designated technical support so those issues can be resolved immediately. members participating remotely must continue to remain visible on camera for the duration of the hearing and lessen the experience issues or other technical problems that render the member on

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