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tv   Matthew Spalding Peter Wood on the 1619 Project  CSPAN  August 26, 2021 1:17am-2:19am EDT

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thank you new york historical society spiritual ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good afternoon everyone i am donna martinez welcome coming live mentone raleigh, north carolina we have a really fascinating discussion scheduled fory youou today i'm so glad may of you are along for this, the leftist notion that our country's founding dates to 1619
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not 1776 has proven quite popular media, culture and an education now the recent hiring of nikole hannah-jones by unc chapel hill's journalism schools writing to the national spotlight once again this time over the discussion of who we are as americans, what our country represents and the principles on which our country was founded and the role of the factory and the board of trustees when it comes to the issue of hiring people and tenure. we have a great panel lined up and we hope to be able to clear up misconceptions for you and also perspective to a very
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important debate going on in our country joining me today the ceo of the john law foundation she's been with us several times before and many have the opportunity to meet with her across north carolina, amy cook is with us today, glad you are here, jenna robertson the president of the james dean martin center for academic renewal and they are following higher education issues in north carolina the right and the center of the whole discussion trying to clear up a false narrative about the hiring of nikole hannah-jones also matthew spalding vice president for operation at the college he served as executive director president p trump advisory 21776 commission and he will have an update on that commission as well and also our panelist today is peter would president of the national association of scholars, an organization that is following this issue closely he's also in very compelling pieces abouthe the issue of nike
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hannah-jones, her hiring in 1619. thank you very much i appreciate you being here. i would like to start with you there's a narrative of posterity that has been created in national stories say nikole hannah-jones was denied tenure tell us what really happened. >> april 27 when the school journalism put out a press release saying she was hired as the night o o chair. that press release did not specify it suggested she was 19 and very excited about it. at that point the martin center believe this was a bad decision believed by unc chapel hill in the hudson group. an organization in north carolina later found out that was on the tenure anded incorrectly assume that it was because because of criticism that article went viral and national media picked up on it
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and said she had tenure and it was terrible hiring nikole hannah-jones to the board of trustees in january and the committee that looks t at tenure as a journalism school some questions about nikole hannah-jones experience presumably we don't have the information because is protracted they push back we have more information before we take the decision instead of going to dock the journalism school offered a five-year contract with the possibility of a future tenure, she accepted that by the time the hudson school announced nikole hannah-jones would join the faculty everyone at the school was on the same page that she
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was going to be offered a five-year contract with a professor of practice and she would be up for the tenure review. but there has been a lot of misconception. >> that misconception has continuum i had written about this you feel it is still hanging on and that's not trulyy what happened? >> i think it is in the medium look so sensational tenure was revoked that sounds like a sensational story they arm the articles in major media outlets were never corrected.
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into fox news you're still getting incorrect story i think in taking on the national media everyone from the faculty council andnd the observer all have the story right at thishe time. >> peter i know you did extensive research and interesting piece on the whole question what is wrong with being offered a five-year contract and accepting that it sounds like a m good deal. >> a five-year contract especially for someone who is not qualified for a five-year contract is a pretty sweet deal especially when it comes to the promise of a tenure down the road. there is nothing wrong without the left in academia decided to
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place in dialogue without in the mainstream press, if you go into the normal blog and statements coming from faculty members around the country they are exercised by this, tens of thousands of american academics who believe wrongly when she was denied tenure and they don't care that it's a true story but they want to escalate this into a fight the paternal mission pressure on the board of trustees and they will grant per tenure until kobe goes away. jimmy i have no idea what goes on on the board it would be interesting to see the pressure that they are in the fall story they can't high pressure to begin with and there was no pressure to begin with and others in enormous pressure and this will be a test.
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>> can i stop a a hero quick, i say this is a publisher of the carolina journal of an undergraduate degree in journalism and a masters degree which means i care about theis history of journalism. to jenna's point the false narrative that surrounds us number one enter peter's point will hear later the false narrative that she created about american a history and our founding knower talking about this person having a five-year contract to achieve journalism and she hasn't been helpful in trying to set an honest
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narrative and also shows questionable academic work when you look at her 1619 project although this is troubling with state of academia that they're more concerned about a false narrative of frenzy and a false narrative and nobody is curious, i shouldn't say nobody this group obviously is by very few people who seem curious enough the truth oft to this into jenna's point the local news outlets have reported the correct narrative now but there's a whole bunch of people in academia and in journalism that aren't curious enough or want to get to the actual truth
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of the whole narrative that surrounds nikole hannah-jones, i find that troubling and whether it's investigative journalism or in higher education when matters are job and they're not willing to do it we have a serious problem. >> go ahead i'm going to make a general point a tenure is an old idea this goes back to the mid-evil development of the university the whole idea they would have a post on a college the point being it's a most important thing a college can
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offer and something colleges and universities in the dean who hires faculty take a mentally serious and is extremely hard to get we put him to the pavement under pages into publications a good teacher good reviews you have to find advanced the work under serious academic studies and its extremely serious thing what struck me about. i appreciate jen and amy and peter and wrote this in more depth than i have read watching from afar what strikes me on its face to assume that someone comes in and immediately receives tenure that's not how it works is a misunderstanding of the nature of the university.
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in my second point peter has this exactly what as he does often this signals this is not a discussion at all and has very little to do t with it this is politics and this is an attempt this is a very public version of this reaching a before to politicize something of great importance to the standing of colleges and universities and undermines in the indication a person should receive tenure the greatest academic and its professors are there to receive the honorific for political reasons and what they've done ty
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advance in ideology then i think this is the case that clearly signals that i don't know the qualifications beyond the 1619 report if that is a qualification then i would let the notable establishment story into criticized have the last word but i don't know whether she's qualified or not to imply anyone her or anybody else or someone on the right who is conservative should receive because of audiological fights they are having based on the moments of which are debating that strikes me as deeply insulting and hundreds of thousands of years tries to
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develop was spreading education and environment. >> it is interesting that the board of trustees at chapel hill evidently has questions and they want to look into them. only commentary that we see nationally about the mere fact that theyue have questions the board of trustees job their governing board. >> is not just their job it is a fiduciary interest as board members they must do that it's her duty to uphold the university. >> the truly important thank you for clarifying that the implication by some of the stories somehow it's a problem that they're deficient in some way because i have questions. >> what's going on there is
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politics and it. their opinion is not being taken is been accepted precedent for many years of the trust route review is a rubberstamp from they take the recommendation of the faculty and the dean and do whatever the faculty and dean have recommended in a meeting that you and she and most of the talk was the process and it's their expectation into grand insult web no academic training
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and that is the attitude of the faculty members in many places and appointed of not academics should cut checks and shut up. >> please go ahead usually culture governing in the faculty members mean we roll we want anybody else messing around back goes against the legal foundations of the board of trustees but does have two carry responsibility and they occasionally exercised it's not the first time this is happened in another example once inn a
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while the board of trustees wake up and say we should take a look at something and when that happens there is an outrage i would say there's a couple things to keep in mind that any faculty nonintrusive tenure requires above all become bushman in certain commitment to what the university is all about the pursuit of truth near theem top of the problem with nikole hannah-jones she has confabulation false narrative of american history that's not just my opinion that the opinion of every knowledgeable historian who deals with the american founding is not one or two mistakes at the narrative from beginning to end and one thing to make the mistakes, we all make them but we also have a
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responsibilityle technologist mistakes and nikole hannah-jones pointed out like fact checkers she refused to make changes then. then they were pointed out again and again, by two dozen american historians in the newor york tis and nikole hannah-jones and to this day there are major parts of the 6019 project that are false and the responsibility to tell the truth and at least for the 1619 project someone who operates lazo strong opinion regardless of what the facts are
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and telling troops and pursuing facts and listening to critics in a reasonable way don't count for anything they might want to change the name there's no longer a school opinion and that's what we get nikole hannah-jones brings other things were besides a 6019 project she won the pulitzer prize last year and other lesser awards in the field ofou journalism she was known for writing the articles in the new york times and other places. would any of that is subjected to scrutiny i don't know and emphasizes quality as the 1619 and other awards as well the summing offered an academic
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position on the basis of theis collection of ribbons and awards and scholarships, the answer is no you have to prove your scholarship and she has not in the university of north carolina to not go forward at all i understand the reasons and ideologically country that can raise the flag and say look we got nikole hannah-jones is everywhere she gave a speech at the college recently we are seeing someone who is a genuine academic celebrity in the endorsement is a university that wants to do another celebrities they can select as well then god is on a a tenure as long peter
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said you hit the nail on the head. especially journalism became two different conclusion and we literally got facts wrong another one raven or ms. amount of respect regiment graduate school gordon would there are so many historians a document where she getsto it wrong and if you criticize her like racine now it's sexist or racist were talking about somebody who is not getting facts correct and she will be teaching in the journalism school where we should expect it should be
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correct if you want to be an opinion person and come up with a different opinion that is fine but she is not even open to the facts challenged to correcting those mistakes. it iss problematic and it's especially problematic for journalism when a low point in american opinion anyway now are putting someone who doesn't get facts straight and she's going to be teaching the husband school of journalism and the whole thing whether or not she got a tenure i love that peter got the fact whether or not she has the qualifications to teach at the level. when facts are wrong and if you teaching historical fiction that might be something else but were
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talking about 70 teaching journalism and she has proven and been challenged that the facts she provides are not only accurate. >> it's ann interesting point in jenna and others over the feet away and. >> what about the reputation of the journalism school itself to yamy's point and if your job is to teach a next-generation of journalist wouldn't you want to be incredibly careful about the rigor in the standard of journalism by the people that you hire that seems to be a real question based on the consistent by historians in the fact that
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she's gotten wrong in the project which is received so many accolades. >> we cannot overestimate the sickness of the university bubble i think the people at school at carolina were genuinely blindsided that the trustees would not think that nikole hannah-jones was the best acquisition that they could possibly get for the school and they are taking in accolades and the awards that she has one by herel celebrity status and i thk because they live in the university bubble in a very political culture they haven't heard or taken seriously the criticism of haner jones, they think this celebrity on their staff is going to improve the
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journalismof the school and they should be concerned about the quality of their school but they shown in the past that they're not my colleague wrote about it several years ago the journalism completely gutted its requirement and students in the major are required to take history or economics or statistics or any of the things that would help them become better journalists and better understand the things thatngrt they're reporting on and keeping with the direction in recent years and is a real shame. >> the description as an academic celebrity without academics. this is been going on for some
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time this is a high profile case that's precisely what is problematic. it's not a matter of celebrity might be in some cases to bring somebody that has experience someone he was a journalist and done the journalistic part we saw questions about the relationship with thingson calld facts in approaching their work, this seems to have nothing to do that and indeed i would suggest we have two conversations and as i read the story in the 1619
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debate and its association with other things like 7076 the claim here being made by the advocates of 1619 have nothing to dof with facts they don't claim to be following fax fax is not what this is about. this is the narrative and ideology and using the academy and using a post in using the situation to advance a political argument. i think journalism the board of trustees and others who are watching this o go on need to sp back and realize what is happening this is not merely one set of acts versus another set of acts that disagree this is up indeed the whole status of facts in history and truth for
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political purposes to bring about an outcome which is nothing to do with the facts per se that's not what this conversation is about i think we shouldn't fool ourselves she answers critics because people on the right don't like her facts. that's not what this is about this is a fundamental questioning of the whole academic project in the journalistic project itself pursuing the facts in writing about the truth and undermines history and questions history itself then we should see that for what it is. >> to the point it'ser interestg we have a comment on facebook and i received a question about this by e-mail 1619 project itself, could you give us an example, a brief summary of what
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it is that nikole hannah-jones is arguing for, what she sees as a fact and are 1619 project and what is wrong with that. >> i want to refer to peter he's written a lot about this and is very good on all of this. but back to the original, the whole thing is based on a series of facts and claims a narrative that's overarching the interpretation and wrong and it says america was founded and began because of and for the sake of an order to defenses very that's the essence of central idea that animates all american history that is factually incorrect but overarching historically
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incorrect and is intended to get around to get around the facts of history to spin this other argument into go after the very claims and things like the american founding in american history for reasons that have to do with establishing that right now fighting current politics this country is systemically racist and we need to have certain policy outcomes. that is arching factual problem peter without be fair to say i know you have more to say than that. >> it's incredibly onpoint but this is the project that advances the thesis that america was racist from the get-go and in august of 1619 slave ships
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and another one a month later came to jamestown with the passengers who were captive and had been captured in theca caribbean p nikole hannah-jones sums up the beginning of slavery in america and that's a murky point because they recognize slavery as a symbol to these people the category and within a few years most of them were set free and married to the white population with landowners and citizens ofhe the country the vy base of 1619 is the beginning of slavery in america and growing up into the giant bush and claims that every significant event in american history was part of the scheme by rich black
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people or oppressed and treated, there is a history foror americn slavery that needs to be told and manages to get the part of it wrong some of the claims are so outrageous that they got people on the far left exercise in nikole hannah-jones in a lead essay saying the american revolution was fought by the columnist against the british and against the threat that the british crown might m abolish slavery. >> peter on that point correct me if i'm wrong even they the new york times had gone too far and they recanted and another
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printing. >> when the new york times original fact checker professor harris from the university came forward six months later and said i told them that was wrong that they did not change it. after she came forward and she happens to be black and went back to the original instead of saying the columnist gave them this rebellion to preserve slavery they added some of the policies. >> you been passed as false, the british and everyone made that threat we know from newspapers at the time and we go from the declaration of independence and correspondence and numerous americans living on the revolution to our knowledge to this day no one has ever founded american columnist who said let's rebel against the british because all take her slaves away
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and in fact the british was a nation in the world and the only complaint that americans have about the british is that they were bringing too many slaves to the world. this cannot be more false is utterly false, entirely false and i don't know what other adjectives i could put in their. >> this underscore and what strikes me let's put it this way if i wrote something very publicly criticized by gordon in james and sean and others i would immediately pursue a discussion to discover the truth of the fox and have that conversation. the very fact that were not doing the, this is all or nothing we either accept this 1619 project or were defenders of slavery and we want to raise history and we are mean people,
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that tells you right there this is not about history, this is not h about pursuing and tryingo discover the accurate history and have a conversation with her students about that, this is about a political battle right now and i think that gives up that is so obvious that another discussion about a ten year for the key author of that i think makes it more clear what's going on. >> we also have questions from our viewers wanting to know what is the relationship between the 1619 project and critical race theory, and north carolina were having a big discussion about that being toner public schools so what is the relationship are those two things the same or how are they related. >> i would give a simple answer to that the 1619 project is a
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concrete application of critical race theory critical race theory has been around academia for several decades nikole hannah-jones knows what it is she simply taken the generalization and tried to give the materials by this particular agree just him false historical narrative. they dovetail together and you could teach critical race theory without the 1619 project but the of1619 project gives it life and makes it easier to looking for classrooms. >> amy, please go ahead. >> i want to add one more thing to nancy's point about the 1619 project and being a political battle 1619 makes the new york titimes relevant not that they
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weren't but they had not had as big of a viewership as they did -- i should take that back when 1619 was released and they were people lined up at newsstands around city blocks people were buying the new york times in droves and they hadn't seen that response since barack obama since he won the election in 2008, make no mistake this is also a way for new york times to make some money and be relevant in so many places across the country, i'm not saying that's a primary driver but is important all of this. >> were also hearing some talk and seen some reporting that nikole hannah-jones might consider a lawsuit over this.
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is there any basis for that, what would she sue for what would be the damages. she needs a contract for five years in the umc journalism school. >> i can't think of any credible legal argument that she could make an nor have i heard the planned legal argument that she's going to make and i heard that she might sue but i don't know what the charges would be and i can't figure it out are not creative and that kind of way. i think it's really important to understand especially for the general reader in observer to understand the person sending their kids to schools with all these terms let's set aside what terms are used, critical research, identity politics,
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equity outcome of objectives the terms keep changing and the bottom line is there was a turn in history and a longer explanation based on the intellectual tradition of liberalism and there was a turn in history that looked at history intentionally backwards and to figure out what was history telling us into look back to find a wayst looking for current objectives, that is critical race theory or critical theory, we go back to find these things for the sole purpose of fighting current bottles the current battle that they want to fight is about race and critical race theory is to apply to history for the 1619 project and it is to look backwards, find what you're looking for
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regardless of the facts and make iterative to fight the battle. there is a connection between all of these things in the study of history which is very important, we should look at what it is, this is not merely a dispute over the history that's gotten wrapped up in the current public debate and discussion over the base in american politics these are intimately by definition connected and intentional move in the current lstatus of the liberal scholarship to fight to advance their political objectives which is at the heart of what critical race theory was o intended to do which is to stir up race debates as a way to advance a hard left political agenda in the initial cases of critical theory and the
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thinkers mine and vance on marxists political agenda that wrapped upp but not and we see t for what itha is. >> sone more things that you hae done in your professional life is to serve as executive director president trump 1776 advisory commission. can you give us a brief summary of thatt commission's work, what it founded where it stands? >> i will be brief and i want to hear other people and how this might connect i took lead to be the executive director in december of last year this is afterer the election and it had been announced on last year'sco constitution day and at the very end of the administration what do we do with this commission, if the current president asked
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me to revolt on a commission on 1776 i would do that to i took lead to put this commission together and the purpose of the commission at large is to prepare the nation and getting ready for the two d50 is the anniversary of independence which is coming up in the first thing you asked for is a report about the status of the principles of 1776 in light of that and what those mean, we took as an opportunity we had 20 commissioners and one about it in a quick work to try to make the case and invent new ideas and crazy new things we made a brief matter of time ago, verym mainstream argument was 1775th
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was the birthday of the country the time of which o these people are developing on the eastern seaboard and becoming a people that would govern themselves and fled europe for their liberty and came together to declare their independence for ce for a set of reasons reasons thd to the writing of the constitution so that so what those principles mean especially that all men are created equal, a look at the boundary, if you will, our guide was abraham lincoln who pointed out and i think this was to get back to our key how to look at history, what drives history are not
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laws, in this case slavery, dehumanizing barbaric solutions, it's clearly talked about in those terms but what drives the history of america is that it becomes with this statement about personal self evident true so it's wonderful but it compromise for slavery which were done to create the union, what's great about america a nation that included slaveholders begin the nation pricing all men are created equal length articles principles for abolition. the abolitionist movement began america throughout the declaration of independence. the hardest story who wanted to tell. we also -- we released a report on martin luther king day two
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days before a new private was and operated -- >> that is important from i don't want that to just go through, are you think the biden administration pulled the website. >> they took the report done. one reason, it was a public document so it could be taken down still out there floating around and i encourage everyone to read on their own. to come back to our discussion about race theory, there's a report on that the commission to submit a letter giving them that appendix and advisory report object to the regulation to teach in schools but more important, i would say executive order by which the 1776
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commission was abolished was the same executive order by which the new administration instructed the federal government to pursue not aquatic but equity outcomes not the federal government to say the administration given a wanted intellectually, pending projects and cripple race theory had to get rid of 1776 commission, they couldn't abide in this existence because it denies the very premise of a political battle and policies they want to development. >> it seems we are at a critical and frankly, astonishing points in our culture and public discussion. on the one hand what we are talking about today, which is a big controversy, nicole hannah jones hired by chappell hill, based in our project team 19
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that is completely different from what you're describing about american history chronicled in the 1776 commission report. what seems to be diametrically opposed set of information about our founding so what is a person supposed to do and believe is accurate? >> asking whether it was done to respond in the 1619 project. my answer was, it wasn't. it makes one footnote but otherwise that wasn't the intention at all. it's an argument for the principles, driving principles of american history and developing an understanding of american history and the
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declaration of independence that's fair accurate and honest is it so despite its flaws, we can see the principles behind it. it's important we don't look at it as 1619 versus 1776. that's not what we are talking about here. but we are talking about is accurate and fair history, it is impossible to do not 1776 was somehow a historical speedbump important in american history. the question is how to capture a good accurate history to teach that to our students and for ideological political debate i 1619 and for member these debates were not invented yesterday, this has been going
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on for some time. i've been studying this, parts of our life into this work, this is an ongoing discussion, what it means to be an american. as important in itself, our intention was to help us as a country states who are writing curriculum, helping scoreboards, helping homeschooling moms, pointing them toward good and accurate history. we didn't claim to have an answer, we are just pointing toward court history, this is the history of abraham lincoln, this is the history of the founding this is the history of civil rights movement and abolition movement.
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at what we need to be teaching and i think 1619 and the current debate, ideological debate that we need to get beyond, get past quickly so we can get back to having scholars teach good things in classrooms. >> that's so important, i think 1619, if you put that aside, put aside chapel hill's debate over hannah jones' hiring, teaching history, and you have a degree in history, it's so important and we are hearing about it parent here were concerned about things they are now finding their children are being taught public schools. many parents had to become up close and personal with their child's education out of necessity because of the pandemic and suddenly they are concerned about some of the lessons they are understanding
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their children are being taught and that's why this foundation, particularly center for education, they are focused on this. we are in a debate over social studies standards right now. >> a couple of things on that, we've got all kinds of questions from parents during pandemic and everything else we are looking for a good history resource, foundation has a north carolina history project, it simply -- the history of north carolina not trying to re-create american history, a lot of people are trying to come up with in american history curriculum, we are taking north carolina history project and turning it into a k-12 curriculum so we are in the process of converting that. school districts have come to us and said when are you going to have it done? we need this.
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so there is a thirst for it. on the school part of truth and honesty in history, doctor terry just did something on our website as north carolina goes through this new social studies standards they are putting out and parents are wondering, is a critical race theory? is upending what we thought of as traditionally american history, much of the stuff matthew as talked about. doctor terry -- the come out with supporting documents and they are just terms. the state board of education, these are people talking about social studies standards, history standards or must they come up with this supporting document with these terms the
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head for effective education starts looking at these and said where have i seen this before? it takes the verbiage from the state board of education finds out their sources, wikipedia and some of it is flat out plagiarized. this is the state board of education, we have every right, parents should be concerned about what's being taught and ask questions. at where things -- we need the 1776 commission and we are coming up with this north carolina history curriculum that follows our history project so people will have other sources
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but what terry found on those terms using wikipedia, if you're going to plagiarized, are you going to plagiarized wikipedia? come on. with that, it disrupted an entire meeting and slowed the train down because people are saying wait a second, if they are not getting definitions right where they are getting them from wikipedia and possibly plagiarizing, our state board of education and social study tests are serious issues. this is a theme right now in north carolina, the 1619 project and what is happening at the state board of education level. >> jenna, i think about this and to me it is an active because we
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see what's happening with the state board of education moving towards social study standards from some of them will end up state university system, some of them will attend usc and potentially being taught by someone whose claim to fame, her signature project is 1619 project so over the years, it seems like there will be an acceptance of an alternative view of our country's founding which could literally shape a generation or more in fact seems to be concerning that we want to make sure our kids are being taught are facts. whatever they want to think about it is another issue. we often come to our own conclusions about what we think is good or bad about our country but we need to know what factually is about our country.
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>> that is very troubling but also nothing new k-12 schools and colleges have been using history of the united states for years. that book intentionally look through the lens of the oppressed sort every term, it points out the flaws in our country and of course there are flaws but it does not show the purpose from of the principles from the traditions that built our country on the other side so that is nothing new in the other thing is that in some ways yes, the k-12 schools beating students that will be indoctrinated into universities but starts in our schools of education, in our university square teachers are being
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trained in some of the most politicized anti- factual departments in universities. there one-sided, they repeatedly ignore research to the contrary up there political agenda, education are the reason for years students were taught whole language instead of phonics now education is where teachers learn about equitable math and ways for culturally sensitive signs instead of learning facts so i'm going to put a lot of this at our board of education in universities, where a lot of it was in the first place.
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>> this discussion has been so valuable, i think it helps and some of the falsehoods we know are out there in particular, the nicole hannah jones hiring situation and also a good good discussion about the premise of the 1619 project and the status of the 1776 commission. i'd like to make sure we leave our viewers resources so we know first of all reporting on this issue, you want to make sure go to carolina journal.com, at least from the day check up on the reporting as the story continues to go along. we don't know exactly where it's going to go but carolina journal will be covering back amy mentioned the north carolina history project, go to the website for fascinating history north carolina specific if you're looking for general knowledge or for your kids supplements to what they are learning.
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peter, he written about this issue, where kinfolks find your writing about 1619 and writing about. >> the report critical response to the 1619 project that's widely available. >> naf.org. terrific. matthew, where kinfolks find the 1776 commission report even though it's on the website? we just will it? >> it's a public document, which means it's in the public realm so search 1736 report it will come up. our website and a bunch of other places on the website it's usually downloadable and free. i will note is another version that includes all of the footnote to all of our work which they criticized academic
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like myself for not having footnotes and lo and behold we've got a lot footnotes. keep your eyes out there will be a full published curriculum available soon. >> awesome. the website is -- there we go. >> we've been talking with matthew, feiss president for washington operations, peter what is the president of the national association of scholars jenna robinson is president of james martin center for academic renewal. amy cook is the ceo, my colleague here at the foundation, thank you so much. appreciate your perspective today and we also want to thank you so much for joining us, thank you for being engaged, for caring about this debate and wanting to know what's really going on, caring about facts. that's so important.
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every day help you go to the website of the john park foundation, john locke.org and the great research-based information on a variety of public policy issues. also journalism done the old-fashioned >> so

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