tv Emma Goldberg Life on the Line CSPAN July 18, 2021 6:45pm-7:46pm EDT
>> good evening everyone. the new book life on the line i would like to share some history in 1927 going from 48 bookstores and now is the sole survivor we like to thank all of you for your support tonight we are thrilled to have with us and the goldberg for life on the line. a reporter at "the new york times" health and science styles gender and culture among others in the income medical students she focuses
nurses and students and a lawyer best new journalist award and then the masters cambridge university joining the conversation tonight joining "the new york times" editorial board 2018 where she covers politics. she also msnbc political analyst to discuss national politics like mayor bill de blasio at the daily news and then the wall street journal. 2011 to 2013 and national features reporter at the daily and was a staff editor at her first job in washington dc and began her career as a writer for the michigan daily at the
university of michigan ann arbor. so please welcome emma goldberg to the stage. >> hi everybody. i am lucky enough to be a colleague of emma goldberg and a dear friend. i am so proud she is here at the hometown bookstore to talk about her first book with you life on the line i want to dive right in because she is the star. so bear with me this is my first time moderating anything. so apologies in advance. and so excited for you. can you just start by telling us a little bit about the
subject matter? your book is among the first to be published anywhere about new york's first wave of covid which is brutal family have a hard time reading about the pandemic especially here in new york city. so why do you think it's important to keep writing and talking about front-line communities and what we saw here in new york last year? and with those primaries coming up and then to have done so much with the pandemic and that's a really great question and an interesting place to start because i have heard from some people how it's a little too soon to this
talk about the stories that have come out over the last year. first of all i'm hoping it's just a snapshot but it's ongoing around the world and here in the us and communities and this is a crisis that is ongoing and so to me it was a powerful story to tell and then to zoom in on that particular point in time because it was a frightening time for a lot of different reasons first of all my house were packed and then you could
hear the sound of sirens so it was an eerie time because there was a certain kind of paralysis the ways we are used to interacting with the city we cannot see out there reporting. so for me to connect with a group of young people stepping onto the front lines to do something valuable for the city at a moment when so many were struggling how to respond. and then how to connect with these young doctors. >> talk about what it was like to be a reporter in those early days of the pandemic i imagine when you started to lay the groundwork people imagine going out and reporting on the street what kind of work were you
doing? >> it was a strange time particularly in the early weeks. i started doing a little bit of reporting and how they were spawning to the crisis the fascinating experience was that in some ways it was mirrored because in march and early april they were all stuck at home and i was wondering how they could put their skills to use and reporters were experiencing a similar thing to be locked in our homes and not able to be in the hospital so i found ourselves connecting with final year medical students who knew they had the skills to help but weren't sure they would have the opportunity to do so. so those that had the opportunity to graduate early.
so they proceeded to the front lines someone around the same ages that was just inspiring to watch just to drive right into the crisis. >> if you've not gotten a chance to read the book yet it won't take you long. i admit this is embarrassing for this audience but sometimes it's hard for me to get through books these days but i got to yours in a weekend so with a small group of medical students graduating with the pandemic their orders - - their stories are extremely compelling that these are extremely young people ordinary folks thrust
into something very difficult and historic. they have shown extraordinary reserve of courage. where does that come from talking about these young graduates? >> one of the greatest gifts of the reporting is to see their definition. but i think the process to see their definition of courage is changing in real time as they started to do the work they were trained to do. in the beginning i anticipated but so many were experiencing with the year of the unknown
something i was inspired to see to delve into the work and where it really came from is that they could not actually do the life-saving work they wanted to do i remember iris one of her first rotations and introduced herself had the experience that she would be a doctor which was a shock to the system for her because it was the first time saying she was a doctor and after a few hours she passed away in this moment a feeling maybe she should not have volunteered because she felt a deep grief and simultaneously that may be she didn't have the right to feel the grief because she
voluntarily showed up to do the work where others were called to do this work they are the spent years and decades working in the medical field she signed up and had a sense of guilt for feeling that she cannot say the patient which is the reason she got into the medical field in the first place so that was a fascinating moment when she called me to tell me she was experiencing those layers of guilt and grief because at her age and doing the work she knew she could do the work and had to put her own health on the line but the layers of what she was and was not able to do and what she couldn't do even with this life-saving work it was a shift to understand what courage really means for people doing the
work they always knew what they wanted to do. >> . >> about how difficult it is to share the stories especially at a time when so many americans are looking forward as a pandemic for a hot fun summer and those here at the strand of why you felt mission bound to tell the stories so that people have a hard time. >> it's an important question. i was reading recently why
they are not that many monuments or memorials to the 1918 pandemic and one of the arguments made is first of all to forget the national trauma also a rush to develop a narrative that what happened is a foreign agent came from abroad to take down the us and they battled back rushing into the roaring twenties it was under the narrative of war conquering something unknown and then rushing into the next decade. that is a natural response to crisis to put blame word to feed into the narrative of rushing back to normalcy without remembering how many
people are not flourishing under normal times anyway and the pandemic has a lot of critical lessons for us about racial health disparity and who doesn't drive or flourish under normal times. there's so much to learn but there is a risk of the great us of the normal times and then to start processing and remembering who was vulnerable before or during the pandemic. >> but that's a great segue to several the doctors that you followed are from underrepresented minority groups. >> i wanted a group of doctors
that were represented that were a new generation of american medicine. and those desires and identities and those doctors who identities are essential to the medical care they offered. and that skepticism of the healthcare system and then maybe should not bother pursuing medicine or easier career. and to pursue medicine in spite of that but then with the medical system and also all the challenges that people confront when they go into a
field where the other providers and supervisors don't necessarily look like them in the communities that they came from . . . . vulneraby interesting and i think you write so movingly and with such empathy and power. i won't read anything long but i want to share this one sentence that i think sums up where you are coming from which is for some doctors you write truly hearing a patient's voice is a skill that can prove more difficult to master than dressing a wound or reading an
x-ray. it's really powerful and i'm just wondering if you thought anything different that they were bringing to this profession because of their life experiences. you know, how did you make those connections and what did you bring to the reporting from your own life experience? >> on trust and building relationships with their patients was something incredible for me to hear and see because i think to a certain extent, ideas now you need a patient-doctor relationship and patient centered care that for so long that wasn't the norm and that is coming from a new generation of doctors and i
think one of the things that's all the more impressive about medicine, there's a lot of rigid hierarchy at the degree to which younger doctors don't always necessarily feel empowered to speak up to more senior positions and tell them the new sensibilities and ideas that they are bringing to their care. it was bold that we are hearing that from a new generation of doctors that they want to build relationships at the center of their care. it's also interesting to see the new generation of doctors because they also have access to a whole new field of research about what it does to health outcomes when patients and doctors have a relationship and see themselves represented in their medical care. so there's a phenomenal study that i find in the book that was done in oakland a couple years ago where researchers were able
to document that black men had better health outcomes than nonblack doctors and they were more likely to agree to the measures like tests and diabetes screenings. there is no life or death consequences when patients see themselves represented in the medical field so the idea of the presentation isn't just a kind of soft thing, it impacts people's health and that is all the more urgent and it's as a sharpmessage in the context oa pandemic for the portion of communities of color. you saw in the early weeks of the pandemic in new york black and hispanic new yorkers were dying at two times the rate of white new yorkers and i think they are not just statistics but people in their lives.
it brought the message that we need greater representation that is so homogenous for so long. >> i do want to ask about new york's outcome and the pandemic from your perspective, but before we get there. i'm definitely not an expert on medicine by any means, but i thought that i knew a fair amount about health disparities and there's so much in the book that has made me stop and put down the book and think about it. one of the things you write about is how in the 1800s but you can correct me if i'm wrong, there was a movement to professionalize medicine and eventually it ended up shutting down medical schools and communities of color and
communities that are in poverty so it made it very difficult for black americans to become doctors in their own communities even during segregation so that contributed. that is the foundation for the doctors. i'm just wondering if you can tell us a little bit more about the connection between the disparities and outcomes that we saw in this pandemic over the last year and the basis for modern american medicine. >> that was a piece of history i was fascinated to learn while i was doing research for the book. i had a big sense under the preventive doctors far under the
general population and i had to make sense of these statistics but i didn't necessarily know how deeply rooted in the history of the u.s. medical education system these were and so i was fascinated to learn that actually there were a lot more medical schools that were educating black physicians and rural and low income physicians in the 1800s and there was a whole wave of medical schools opening across the u.s. and it was the sense that american medicine was a lot more egalitarian than in the system of europe that was restricted by these kind of elite medical societies. and then at the turn-of-the-century in the u.s., there was a concerted effort to shut down a lot of medical schools. and a lot of that stemmed from the report called the flex report commissioned by the american medical association. and this was by an educator who
essentially decided that there were too many american medical schools and too many low-quality ones or ones that were not rigorous enough in their training and so he started an effort to shut down a lot of medical schools. and unsurprisingly, when that ended up falling on the rural medical schools that were training lower income people to care for their communities and so you had only i think over a dozen at the start of the century that just two of them remained after they pushed. as a result of that it was a lot more homogenous. that's an important history to understand that we are looking at the representation of the field today because representation has shifted very little in recent decades. there's only a tiny inching towards more representation of the physicians of color and that
kind of bakes into the dna. over the past year which in general are horrific for all new yorkers and were especially catastrophic for black and hispanic new yorkers. why is that? can you pull back a little bit and take us not just through your reporting for this book but also a reporter for "the new york times." how would you assess new york's public healthcare response to this pandemic? you may have some of the most of close knowledge of any reporter in the country and i think you are going to be pretty popular versus as we start to move these
investigations into where things went wrong. the city report made that those of color were more likely to be working jobs where they couldn't socially isolate. there were so many people who were not able to shut themselves in at home and isolate. and then on top of that i remember talking with a doctor who also has historians in the
book and talking about how he saw all these headlines in the early weeks of the pandemic that kind of blamed their racial disparities are put a spotlight on them and this was something that he had a cms since day number one of medical school and how the racial disparities played out in new york. they were not really even able to focus on protecting themselves because they were focused on trying to find shelter and where to sleep when the subways were not running 24 hours and so like so many new yorkers the pandemic was just one more layer of fear on top of and that carried so many vulnerabilities. so for him he was saying
coworkers were seeing how the pandemic had all these realities that people were already living with andy was even more so the case he had patients who came to the hospital and immediately left because he heard they would be able to be released if they left the hospital and got back so there were so many people who were not able to protect themselves because they were living with all of these kind of struggles and fears. >> i hope again and forgive me if i'm repeating something everybody here already knows but one of the most compelling characters in the book is the younger son of a new yorker who died of covid and the doctors have to kind of look after him
and they are not sure where to take him. but they are very concerned for his well-being and his long-term safety and security and happiness. i think it was hard for me to read about that because in some ways i don't know if this was intentional. maybe i am reading too much into this but for me, he kind of works as a stand in for the forgotten new yorkers. this is a city where de blasio called it a tale of two cities but i've been saying that it's kind of like jerry maguire. it used to be a better meal and now it's a better life but it's not funny because in this pandemic the disparities that new york already had were not about other you live in a luxury building but it's whether or not you got sick, whether or not you died, lost your housing or your job and he just needed to be
this almost every man standing for the new yorkers who are nameless and faceless and vulnerable as anybody in the developing world in many cases. how did you deal with this emotionally? i know you quite well and you are wonderfully empathetic and kindhearted so how did you deal with this emotional burden in your reporting while trying to live your life in the middle of a pandemic? >> i was so touched by the story and it was a gift to get to talk with not only the main dr. who was caring for him, but others on his team because he was an all hands on deck at first and there were doctors who were working a 12 hour shifts and staying longer after that to make sure he was getting the food he liked and clothes and
toys and other things that would keep him occupied. and you touched on this in what you were saying was so beautiful but this is a young man and it's true he kind of worn out every vulnerability possible during the pandemic. he was living in a city with his dad who was his only immediate family member and then when he's dad passed of covid, he had no one to take care of him and the hospital took him in and agreed to let him live there for a couple weeks which was an unusual situation. he ended up being in the hospital for 100 days which is pretty crazy when you know how hard it is to be in these hospitals. one thing i thought was fascinating talking with the doctors caring for him how are they dealing with the an
emotional layer of it and the day-to-day snafus that were coming up. it was hard to feel the emotional weight at the time because it had new layers of the logistical development whether it was the doctors finding new medical records that indicated he was actually partly death or taking him to interview at a group home that meant that his emotional needs were too great for them to handle or they had a doctor sent to his old apartment to try to find medications and they found out his dad was a hoarder and it was hard to get around to find anything because it was so filled with things. so every day there were these new logistical developments and it was hard to feel the emotional void of what he was experiencing until the end where he was released and was taken in and then for me and the doctors
to look at the story of what this young man had just experienced which was kind of persevering and then also seeing photos of him and he was a joyful young man and brought out a lot of the joy in the hospital. he would be walking around playing songs on somebody's phone or getting doctors to come over and bring guitars. >> i think that is well said because along with the fact there are so many vulnerable people here in new york and around the world you do a great job in your reporting of making
sure this book is not a tragedy to her or poverty tour. it's about human dignity and the fight for that it's a powerful testament. so again, i cannot urge you all to -- i don't want to get the emotional so i will stop there. but before we take questions, i did want to ask is there anything about your reporting, it could be in the book or something that wasn't in the book that you think is important for new yorkers and others who may be were not as hard-hit by the pandemic as the folks in your book to understand? what showed people who were not in new york or who just were not
that impacted, what should they know and take away from your reporting and what you've learned? >> i think that one of the things that really hit me was the degree to which it fell to the doctors and patients like a war zone, like they were on the battlefield. for some of the doctors, there was a kind of frightening aspect because the hospitals were referring to them as the covid army. you had the students that graduated in april and they had an early graduation on webex and they were greeted as the covid army coming into battle. most people were not expecting to spend a couple months preparing for residency to kind of take the lessons of medical school may be doing some
celebration with family and suddenly instead they were being thrust into for what intensive purposes felt like a war and i remember this both of us as reporters there were headlines in "the new york times" saying it feels like a war zone and they didn't have enough ppe and they felt like they had just really been left behind and left out to dry by the city government and federal government, like they didn't have all the support they needed when they were going into confront. i think that there's going to be a real mental health epidemic following this that hospitals are going to have to deal with and doctors and new yorkers and it's kind of hard to wrap our mind around all of that as we are celebrating. we had our day of reopening yesterday and people are eager to get out and start celebrating and i think that is in an understandable impulse and i
think also we probably are not fully processing the degree to which we are going to have a mental health crisis that is particularly sharpened in this city and for frontline providers in the years to come because what they saw was incredibly challenging and they didn't feel like they had the support that they needed from the higher ups. >> thank you so much. we have some really good questions here. one is a great segue actually from jasmine. she says historically becoming a doctor has been seen as a career path mower is becoming a nurse has been viewed as a working class career. during the height of the pandemic, she says we saw a celebration of all essential workers. how do you think that societies will be all essential workers post pandemic and beyond doctors
i believe? >> that is a key question. i have the question a lot of times like why is this about doctors and it's true written about all the people on the front lines of the pandemic and so many different ways, whether that is nurses, and every single doctor was testifying to this every day the nurses were going above and beyond not just to do day-to-day stuff but to provide emotional support for patients because in a lot of cases they couldn't have family members with them and so the nurses were standing in as the loved ones holding their hands, providing emotional comfort, holding an iphone so they could facetime their family members. the nurses were going above and beyond and there should be and have been many stories written about what they have done as well. there's so many other kind of
front line of people that experienced this pandemic. the stories need to continue to be told. clerks and subway operators. there are so many people here, some of the emts and others on the front line and people that have been instrumental in the recovery. all those stories we need to continue telling and i think there was, some of the doctors there was a sort of strangeness that last spring that kind of fizzled at a certain point and now we're seeing the rush towards reopening and we need to kind of continue to think about how to memorialize and how to celebrate those who served in different ways. new york had a beautiful memorial but i think we need to kind of continue to think about
the fact we have the memorial and the best way of celebrating those that rushed to the front line and up their own bodies on the line to serve. >> i totally agreed. we had the governors fireworks yesterday and i love a party as much as the next girl but i thought it was really strange considering the fact we are still in a pandemic, people are still dying every day and we really have no's [inaudible] [inaudible] there is a lack of closure. this is a good question as well. michael says i can't imagine the level of stress the doctors had to being thrown into the front line. did any of them express anxiety or stress about the experience?
>> it is a challenging way to start your career and i think particularly in the context the fact that medicine is always going to be a challenging career to start. there are rotations where you have layers of accountability and to the first day you suddenly are carrying for your own patient and you have people looking to you to sign off on all sorts of thing and that can be a terrifying moment. in july they call it killing season because it's when the new interns start and there is a higher rate of accidents or other kinds of injuries for patients. it speaks to the terror of starting your medical career and all the more so when you are starting in the midst of a crisis. what i was kind of amazed by is how the doctors i was speaking
with started to assimilate into the work and embrace it and to a certain extent feel confident in the role of the work that they were doing. i think part of what helped with that is treating covid was novel for people at every level of the medical field no matter how much experience you had a so in some cases within a few weeks of work someone starting out as a medical turned dr. could have the same level of knowledge of care is the most experienced doctors on the ward and that fostered a certain kind of confidence. similarly, there was a collaborative and cooperative i heard about in the hospitals. hospitals that asked for volunteers and one of the first people to sign up was the dean of the medical school and you had people who were surgeons changing bedpans, so there was a collaborative experience working together and recognizing one another's contributions and i
think that fostered a kind of hopeful experience despite of the challenges the young doctors were facing. >> timothy asks the question about whether there are any lessons that india, which is being ravaged by covid unfortunately right now, india and other countries that right now are going through that can learn from what your subjects learned in the early days of the pandemic in new york city. you can take that to mean from a medical point of view, patient care, health systems. i don't think we have gotten much into the assessment of the public healthcare system here in new york city but you can answer any part of that that you are up for. >> that is a great question and i think that again it speaks to
why i want this book to be one moment in one city because the pandemic is very much ongoing. in so many parts of the world right now i think it is hard to say right now what lessons the u.s. has to offer because there were a lot of stumbling blocks in the u.s. through the pandemic. reopening for too soon, people rejected some of the science and levels of authority. i think it's hard to say what lessons there are necessarily to be learned from the u.s. response. i will say that i think something hopeful as we saw how much the equipment works when we have it. i was fascinated to see of all of the doctors i followed, none of them fell sick in the
hospital. the protective equipment was effective and when it was available it was useful. they thought there wouldn't be enough protective equipment but fortunately all of the hospitals were able to get together and protect their own staff so that is one of the key lessons and another one i think is just the critical mental health support. i read that from so many frontline providers over the last year that there is so much trauma that they are experiencing particularly in having to sit next to patients that passed away without family members present and the kind of trauma for so many doctors. for u.s. and other countries, continuing to provide adequate mental health support for the frontline providers will be such a critical issue.
>> your point about the success of ppe, personal protective equipment is so important because as we are thinking about what went wrong in the united states, you touched on this a little while ago, part of the reason vulnerable communities were hit so hard because essential workers in those communities, sanitation workers, subway workers, bus drivers were not protected in the same way that doctors in a far better resourced hospital were so that's one of the tragedies that we saw firsthand. what was your writing process like and are there any stories you've heard that were compelling but didn't make it into the books?
>> the writing process was challenging in that it was hard to know kind of the moment the transition from reporting to starting to write particularly with a short timeline for putting together the book. it was challenging because it involved a lot of reporting and circling back to the doctors and asking them a million questions and details of what had been seen. but it was an exciting writing process because i'm used to doing so many quick turnaround articles and just short pieces where you are on a deadline so being able to retreat from that news cycle and every morning when i woke up just kind of doing writing i wouldn't be doing right away and going online within a couple of days that was just such a treat for me because it is something we do not always get to do in media and the newspaper industry which
is writing without a deadline and editorial feedback so that was a treat and also the kick up in all of our lives away from the normal routine for the writing time. a story that did not make it in the book, there are so many of them but i spoke with a wonderful woman i didn't get included in the book that she was working at a hospital in staten island. one of the things i loved as this was a woman that graduated early to work in the ward and ended up working on a team with her brother and best friend who are all doctors as well. they were all on the covid board together and actually, she fell
sick with covid not long after starting. she's one of the people that did fall sick while treating patients and one of the amazing things is hearing the support that she had from her friends she was working with while dealing with her own case. it ended up how does this work for the doctors because when you are in the thick of things and in the trenches, having people you can lean on and understanding what you are going through in a way no one else can is such an important thing. she's one of the people that spoke to the families and communities that formed in the hospitals over the course of the pandemic. a. >> i hope that you will forgive me i'm going to play editor for a moment. for those of you that are not journalists, one of the most annoying but important questions that you get from your bosses
after you deliver a successful case of journalism or case of work is where the story goes from here. and so, you are now at another assignment and i'm asking not just for you but for this story about new york and a time of pandemic where does the story go from here? >> i think looking at the culture of the hospitals over the coming years can be critical because i think a lot of doctors testify to the fact that during the pandemic, so many kind of norms and routines were completely upended. from the fact that they could see patients facial expression
and to the fact they couldn't allow visitors. in the pandemic there were things that changed from the really good and the really bad. and i think one of the questions that is going to be continually important for the hospital is how you seek the good that's changed in the pandemic response while shifting back to normal and for some of the norms that were changed really. some of the hospitals are beginning to let visitors back in. starting to figure out a better mode of communication how do we keep some of the collaborative modes of working that emerged during the pandemic while shifting back to normal
particularly in terms of allowing visitors and then i think the most critical mission, how do we allow for a recovery that is equitable and that doesn't leave behind the communities that were most devastated by the pandemic to begin with. and i think the economic crisis that devastated the city is touching a lot of people's lives and is just as visceral as the pandemic. lost jobs, small businesses have shut down and there is a danger that we kind of rush into the recovery and that there is a risk particularly on the communities that were most left behind during the pandemic. and we have primaries going on right now some of the doctors can speak to the equitable recovery in a critical way. to continue to bring the voices into the conversation on what
the recovery looks like will be such an important question. for me, i felt like it was such a treat to getting to know the doctors in the book and getting to hear their stories. i want to just kind of continue to ensure from which to share their experiences because all too often in medicine you kind of hear from the most senior people in the field. for the city as a whole and continuing for those that's all the inequities and the challenges of the pandemic and kind of giving them a platform to continue to share their stories. those are all things i would like to continue to follow and i
hope others do as well. >> before we finish up here, we don't like to talk about ourselves. we are pretty uncomfortable about it but i hope you all get the sense for why it is journalists continue to be essential workers in the state law because they are and i'm just wondering what do you do to stay sane. it's not only doctors that have been kind of on the front lines and reporters like you. so, how are you doing to recover and to make sure that you are i guess feeling healthy and whole in this dark period as we walked towards the finish line?
>> it is so important to celebrate the history and the miracle of this moment. i remember last year talking with coworkers about the realistic timeline that we could expect everyone in the city to be vaccinated and the fact that 70% of new yorkers haven't even been able to get vaccinated is a miracle to celebrate and the fact we can start to reopen businesses because that is important for business owners. i think separating the moment is critical. to memorialize i think we kind of have to figure out how to do all of that at the same time to do so much more than we could. we have to do those things because it is a hard one victory and i think we can do that at the same time.
mangling the joy and the work is important. i'm going to push you on this. what are you doing for your own emotional health reading, running, swimming, seeing friends? >> one of the greatest things is getting to dive into a very big stack of books that i've been wanting to read at all of my local bookstores with so many good books coming out and i am so excited to spend a lot of the summer reading more fiction and reading some nonfiction. i don't know that i'm ready for
any pandemic related nonfiction yet but there's so many good memoirs and spending a lot of the summers with friends because last summer was such a distant strange disconnect. i think soaking in as much of the togetherness in the communities is something i really want to do. >> again, thank you so much to everyone for coming out and thank you for this extraordinary debut. i really appreciate your work so much and congratulations. >> thank you so much. you bring such a wonderful conversation. thank you for everyone who came out. grateful to you all for making time.
his time as the ceo of general electric during a virtual event hosted by barrick bookstore in connecticut. here's a portion of the program. >> i wrote the book because i felt like it was a complicated story and that, you know, truth equals fact plus context. and i thought that it had gone missing. that basically between the media and the company is defending itself that the narrative didn't speak to the people i worked with and what i really wanted to do is add more facts, a complete story about the good things we did and the bad things we did, but to get a complete story out there and that's really what i tried to do in terms of running a company during a crisis or when things are not good, you
have to make quick decisions. you have to operate the company better and you cannot allow up people to point fingers so i would avoid focusing on those three things. but that's not the reason why i wrote the book. i wrote the book to speak to the thousands and thousands of people i worked with. to find a more complete way around the company and that is the context. you are watching booktv on c-span2. well, if you are of a certain age, you have one of these on your shelves, a dictionary. you've probably looked up words in it throughout your lifetime. but if you are a little bit younger, chances are you have