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tv   After Words Rosa Brooks Tangled Up in Blue  CSPAN  July 7, 2021 6:02pm-6:59pm EDT

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the kind of continue crisis of policing police violence precipitates community violence and think about these and the causes of crime basically until the cycle is not broken or until it is broken or we no longer empower police officers to respond to and manage whatever fundamental human rights and fundamental socioeconomic inequalities, this violence is going to continue and we are at the crossroads now where we don't need anothercr commission, we don't need more reform, we know what we have to do. the kerner commission was fraud, they said you want to stop rebellion in s the future and
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there was resources and communities of color. and we will continue to see the police violence and nonviolence will continue to precipitate with community violence until we begin to finally commit in some ways and minds in the task before us is daunting but to me that m is one of if not the main take away is time for a different step of investment. >> elizabeth having america on fire, the untold story and police violence since 1960s
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better this important pivotal decade in american history in the 1960s an early 1970s. >> thank you and thank you for coming tonight on c-span2 space travel we start with the book test guides and virgin galactic in the modern astronaut than the author of left off elon musk in the desperate early days that launched space acts in a conversation on the book shuttle houston my life in the center seat a mission control, booktv starts tonight eddie p.m. eastern on c-span2. >> weekends on c-span2 are an intellectual feast, every saturday you will find events and people that explore our nation's tax on american history tv on sunday booktv brings you
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the latest in nonfiction books and authors, it's television for serious readers, discover, explore, weekends on c-span2. the discussion with law professor rosa brooks details her experience of the reserve police officer in washington, d.c. she's interviewed by leasing up the american city. >> take you for joining us i am really honored and happy to visit withap rosa brooks the author, an interesting book about policing in her experience in policing tangled up in blue and policing the market city. rosa, thank you for being on and having me i look forward to this conversation but i have to start off with one pressing question
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what in the world made you leave the confines of the classroom, your home and go one and hit the streets in washington, d.c. >> if you ask my family that they would say insanity a midlife crisis but i was just curious that was probably the driving force when i found out that d.c. has an officer program or you're not just directing traffic but where you can become a sworn arm police officer i thought you're gonna give gun tg a law professor, bad idea, it was probably that just plain curiosity and as you know very well policing has been in spotlight for very well and if you want to change something i think you need to understand and doing a rare opportunity to get more insight into the world of
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policing. >> you remind me when you say that of my lawyer that handles employee matters and she came from shell oil and when i interviewed her she said she wanted her 50 moment she still is her deputy director. in your book you counter your expansion from the inside of the frontline police officer going out into the tough neighborhoods and she first hand i think the reality of policing outside of the 24 hour news cycle which is 32nd or hollywood which we know is not the most accurate tbut you said you recount your experiences and then you say and propose and a nation on many fronts we need to transform response to policing.
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how do you define the changes needed and what does that look like to you based on several years of experience. >> that is a big question and let me back up i was working on this book and i would tell people i was working on the book called the experience everyone would say what is your argument that is so interesting what is the one version of the argument and i would say is complicated and people would say things like that is the worst elevator pitch i've ever heard. , they were right that is the worst elevator pitch but i think i was right too, it is complicated and in some ways the goal of the book is to make things more complicated from the outside not to make it simpler, you seen this over and over there is a whiplash where they are self-sacrificing underappreciated heroes or
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brutal racist thugs it can be really hard to inject into the conversation more nuance is says there is good there, bad there, there is mixed up together and if we actually want to transform policing we need to be grappling with that, all of them. and what would make a better and they can't change a social context. i think police get the blame for enforcing law that they didn't create in a social context they can't do much but change and in a way when we blame police for that is the way for the rest of us not to work in a mere and say cops are arresting people for trivial offenses and we think that harms the community, we voted for the lawmakers who wrote the law that led cops to do that. when you look at long prison sentences mass incarceration, a lot of that is prosecutors,
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judges, lawmakers, that is number one there is something that cops cannot change but we as a society or as we need to change is a massive over criminalization in the last couple of decades the excessive sentences and the cuts and other social services that might make what some of police do not have to do anymore. that said i do think there are a lot of things police departments need to be doing and as you know again one of the difficulties with policing we don't have a national police force, we have 18000 different law enforcement agencies, they don't always talk to each other i think they ought to talk to each other, it is very hard even if there is some approach that is promising it is tough to get everybody to pay attention, the cities that have been ahead of the game and the departments that are ahead of the game and training in
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changing who they recruit in changing the incentive structures into talk more and we'd really like to hear about what's going on in houston i had the pleasure through a program at georgetown with the new orleans police and the metropolitan police on the police academy to meet your staff who is working on curriculum in your academy that's when both discussions but been a lot of fun. >> i think one of the things that you mentioned in your book is that police is not as perfect as our greatest fan with say and is not broken in like some would think and what's interesting to me both options of those mindsets are very deeply put to use and now are they involved in either set, what was you
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tribute, how c can we be so different in ouro perception versus supported, i think obviously people fail to see things to the prism of others, given the perspective because you are a law professor in your constitutional experiment and what were supposed to be doing and what the intent of our founders were and in theory the case law and the realities, from your perspective what could you say if you were talking to those and from your perspective what would you say to those on the policing side black lives matter, what are they whining about, we find ourselves broken
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and yet the department to a standard in a mindset and a level of perfectionism by the public, how would you address those two to an informed perspective on how you walk in the shoes. >> one thing i learned not so much from the experience but from getting older, nobody's mind is ever changed by being told that they are stupid or evil. , not a very effective way and that is different. i think we live in a political culture that lends itself bound by stereotypes and not the myths itself very well in anyone's discussion and is not just about policing it's about almost every issue in a very divided moment in to get people to listen, i
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think what i do know to abolish the police proponents and many of my students start with that position, violent crime is real it is not something that far right made up in order to have an excuse of lockup of color, there is racism as a system, absolutely and we need to address that but be careful what you wish for when you talk to people who lived in poor communities of color, most often and you can get people with their perspective but many people will say look it's not that we don't want cops in a neighborhood we don't want cops who protect us we want cops whoe we can trust we don't want no policing we want better policing a different policing a better
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policing and we want different better laws at the time and i think the arguments not all but something does resonate with people and defend the police and cops get defensive when they hear that and they did find in washington, d.c. in the policef station in the city to and if you say to a 70s cup should defund the police and they say look at you y have you seen our station in the vehicle that i drive in my equipment, we don't have enough resources to do whaw were doing now to take the money away then what, then what that supper light version such an angry version. >> will let the viewers imagine the other version but if you say to cops something very different
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and if you say one thing things that you do that frustrates you that you wish you didn't have to do that you don't think you should be doing, we need take a mentally ill person to the emergency psychiatric clinic and you're really frustrated because you know that person will be back out on the street without medication without a home to go to the very next day and they say there's a million things that i wish the city provided and it is fighting we end up picking up the slack because we don't haveth those programs then it gets you to a much different much healthier conversation where you say let's work together critics with policing in themselves to talk about what this communities priorities are and how we get them and i'd deal world, how do we gradually recalibrate investment so we end up where we want to be and
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police officers. >> i think you're spot on with e way to talk about issues and what people forget is the words, what president trump talked about to be so kind in general and some of the police officers and unfortunately words matter and it matters in terms of elected officials talking about the issue and they talk about these issues but that scares the heck out of people because when isis focus on bad actors it has a function in a legitimate function where we should go after people that are dangerous to society, how they approach the conversation is really
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interesting one of the things i've been frustrated about i don't know how much you saw but you talk about the garden mentality, i've been telling folks to really look at instances of unjustified uses are forced especially deadly uses of force, i would argue with 37 years of experience that we gotta be very careful what we ask for because what we need is people to have the mind of a guardian that is problem-solving but there are times and i'm sure you witness it that you better have a heart over warrior, i would argue that some of these over the years because we have people that were cops carrying a badge on guns afraid of their own shadow, i can give you an example i say right now and austin, texas were talking about we need to make the police
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academy warmer, gentler and it should be this and here's the thing i would caution if we can't test your mettle in terms of how you're going to react with physical adversity or chpsychological adversity people trying to get under your skin i would hate to not be able to read somebody out yet go straight for the gun like david joseph junior was an african-american man totally naked in broad daylight in my office at the time and counters him to put his gun in his hand, don't we want to assess the mindset and that fear in the environment, and you have any experience in trends of that guardian, but how do we balance it and how shouldn't we balance out. >> that's a really hard issue but i don't think it's either
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or. sue whose book i'll show you now she's a good friend, she's a retired sheriff in washington who runs washington state law enforcement kata me, the program there she's the person who wrote a very influential article for listeners ten or so years ago called guardians versus warriors talking about these two different tropes in one of the things sue says that was powerful and important point in their law enforcement academy they beefed up training on de-escalation on verbal skills, how do you talk toin people so you're not shouting and giving orders to people, just because nobody ever changed their mind because you told them they were stupid and a jerk people are less likely to do what do you say when you sound like you're a jerk as opposed to being polite and courteous. they really beefed up the trading on de-escalation and beefed up the training on tactics to slow things down,
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tactics so you give self time and space and distance and you could you cover and concealment so you don't create dangers herself, at the same time they really beefed up the defensive tactics and physical skills training, her argument which i think is absolutely right is that a lot of the tragic legal police shootings that you get where it turns out the person did not pose o a threat or unard or maybe unarmed and no threat or they go running awayo or whatever cause panic. people pull out their weapon sometimes and they panic and if they don't have confidence that they can handle a situation without a gun they're more likely to pull outhe their gun o her area of emphasis is to say you gotta be better at those physical skills so you will have the confidence to get into a situation and not immediately reached for the gun and know you can handle if somebody shows you
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or pushes you or punches you but at the same time you also need to get better at all of those soft skills, how do you calm people down and treat them in a way that will reduce the likelihood that somebody gets aggressive and violent. >> let me ask you this, having gone through this experience in this adventure in this bible moment, what was your perception of policing from the outside looking in and after yourself are years of experience in the challenging environment how did that perception change in how much of a perception did not mean reality. >> i don't know my perception changed i think you got much more granular, on the one hand i grew up in a family of activists, left wing activist and my mother said the police are the enemy, but at the same
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time i grew up in a blue-collar town where a lot of my friends had cops and their families so i didn't know cops as people as somebody's dad and brother and all the work that i have done all over the world including in places like horrific civil conflicts and atrocities, terrible things, terrible things happen to not that many terrible people even the worst things ara usually done by ordinary people who have come to believe that they have to do with her doing and there are psychopaths but most people aren't so i think going in i'm immediately suspicious when i hear people say anything that seems to
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dehumanizing is dehumanizing when police refer to the residents of the community as the police that they working as animals and i hear that from d.c. officers it's also dehumanizing when protesters call police the pig. >> a cap. >> or i smell bacon there's worse things that i can't say on this program that he's gone with human beings. everywhere i have gone in my whole life you have human beings and better ones and worse ones, in that sense i don't think it changed my perception but what it did do a gave me much more sense, here's what i think is a real tragedy of what i said earlier a lot of what is wrong with policing can't be changed by police because it's outside of policing and is the law and the criminal justice system into socioeconomic divisions in the legacy of racism in centuries of racism and cops cannot change that, what that means even if
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your good decent police officer for the idealistic reason you may still find yourself making arrests that are lawful but awful and arrest when you look at the big picture and try to do the benefit analysis you say is this making the community better off, maybe not maybe it's making things worse, even good decent cops can end up making some of the structural economic andl,ia racial disparities even worse and that's a tragedy but alsoet not something that cops can pick up. >> one that i think is a system and imports are the most visible part of that system is frontline police officer's we're either on cell phones or runway cameras but are options and activities
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are more likely to be captured in today's world unfortunately a lot of the disc personality and systemic racism i would say because if you look at sentencing over the years in terms of crack versus cocaine on how people been educated differently in which choices for which community, to think a lot of the anger sometimes that people tend to send towards police officers and may be a manifestation more so of other aspects, prosecutors i would even say look at the defense who gets a better defense in a most vigorous offense i think the personality all the way around maybe the mistrust and the most
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visible part of the system and lies somewhere else and should be senter somewhere else. >> to be clear police departments many of them have a lot of work to do internally in the d.c. police department which is a good police department but still not perfect and has a lot of work to do, i don't want to let police department off the hook. but that being said i think you're absolutely right this is something that you know my colleague kristi lopez who worked at the justice department many years investigating the abusive police departments like in ferguson missouri one of the points that she makes when we teach together we teach innovative policing in one of the points that she makes to our law students, you guys, you are going to be the legislators and the prosecutors and the defense attorneys and even a few none of those things you're gonna be the
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people who vote for all those people and the people who make the laws and don't go saying the problem is the cops, you have got to be part of that change when you're over end up in a prosecutor and a judge or you're on the city council you can't just point out your fingers of the police because they're going to enforce the laws that you make, they're going to prosecute people that you p bring to them the gonna sentence people that you bring to them, no question to, it's always easier to have a target and police have a visible phase to work with power and it's simpler and easier to direct and people don't see the behind the scene folks and i don't want to let cops there's a lot that they could do differently but no question that the rest of us need to take a long hard look in the mere. >> i would agree with that in
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arguing my role that the president made the chief association and just a thought about police refer in the congress and the senate and i've had the honor of testifying in one of the things that i talked about, think about the federal government, we talk about everybody else and you need toin be transparent and when inviting cameras in your recent profiling data and then you look at the federal government, what is it and what are their reports and when is the last time a federal agency charged one of their officers with a crime in terms of the use of deadly force, points of reference you can't totally assess what is in front of you compared to you this is my third police department and i
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spent almost ae decade there in houston but i have community points to reference in department points to reference. you cannot really truly assess something unless you have something to compare it to. the question i would have two you where is the transparency in terms of the rest of the criminal justice system what does it need to be and should we be demanding more from more transparency because with happening with our prosecutors and our defense attorneys . . . part of your area of life work is the law. >> i don't know if i would say that it's a lack of transparency and the political will. in dc when you go through the criminal code it is kind of a weird city and forced nobody
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says let's take a look at this and see if this bill makes sense. that kind of cost-benefit analysis i was talking about that kind of cost-benefit analysis i was talking abouter is okay. we could arrest 500 people for disorderly conduct and they've got arrest record and some end up serving small amounts of prison time. to get a bigger fine and let's go look at their families and look at any complainants or victims and let see if slept better off by the surf everyone is a big worse off. they tend to have those t conversations and those of the conversations we need to hadd similarly, stop and frisk in new york city declared their partner unconstitutional because what they are doing ended up it turns out this is
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definitely an area where transparency enables accountability. it turns out when you actually look at the numbers very carefully, the police in new york city were stopping a disproportionate number of african-americans relative to their population. but the african-americans were less likely to have weapons than the white people they stopped. which ends at being unconstitutional. but also frankly means cops overestimate threats from african-americans and underestimate threats from whites. both of those are problems. both have to do -- i cannot help but mention at the u.s. capitol, i think really shows the best and worst of policing at the same time. partly the position of the heavy militarized to the
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response with the largely white mob of trump supporters. on the bedside you saw a lot of officers behaving really hurt leon the positive side. but that kind of implicit bias is really dangerous. it means you overestimate some threats. so you treat peaceful gracious protesters like they are about to storm the capital. in fact they are not sprayed you end up guessing and someone you've got a lot of angry, upset and hurt people. and then you underestimate the real threat. real threat is people wearing thin blue line shirts. wet underestimate that if we are biased in favor of thinking a bunch of white people with pro- police slogans on their shirts cannot arbe out to do any harm but that was the real threat. >> i was so proud of the
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police officers to just put everything on the line trying to protect and defend the government. the people's house. i believe it was a fate of leadership. i believe as we continue and we called for a robust inquiry, inquisition i think what we are going to find out his law enforcement leadership failed. we may find out some political leadership failed. i say wish let the experts do the assessment and hold them accountable, i think there be la lot of mistakes made be on the executives. the footprint we saw on the seventh on the capital as a footprint based on the threats, the intelligence of very open and should be existence on the fifth i look
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forward to looking up those results. i hope the police chiefs will be part of it, not just the federal government and politicians decide to use. w want people to actually get to the truth and not necessarily to the outcome at the beginning of the conversation. we talked about, but what happened? i think the difference of those that are successful and just are those who catch themselves oh shoot i'm acting this way because i've got a fear, as she went out there to that call did you ever find yourself on a call where you found your self saying oh, i'm letting my own implicit bias have an impact on my mindset.
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it means you are human, did you have that moment that maybe informs you towards something you would even expect. >> it's a good question is a hard question. i think you are right sometimes i talk to cops g and get really defensive when you talk about explicit biases. i am not racist. i think saying to them saying this is not about you and your decisions. the bias we all have they come from the media, they come from people around us. you cannot just wish them away. what you can try to do is be conscious of them and make sure you do not given to them. and it is not your fault but it is your responsibility to
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counterbalance those biases that we all have. i cannot think about specific instances off the top of my head but there were moments for instance there terrible neighborhood in terms of crime rates and so on. i end up talking to somebody who is really, really thoughtful, really, released martin educated. i find myself surprised. assuming something intellectually isw wrong. because this is a poor neighborhood, everyone i news going to be poorly educated and that is just not b true. i do think i caught myself and some moments of making assumptions that probably came out of my own bias. and then being embarrassedea when i realize how erroneousou they were. >> i think we have all been
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there. and it is okay that we have been there. i think the fact you are in tune with your self your own biases there something you talked about, i've got my notes here. you made, they may have gone too far. and defined the family to broadly. what your thoughts on how you got here. we have to contact the office than the officers in the field to have them accept charges before you arrest people.
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>> that sounds like a good idea. >> i do not like that i think we should argue -- we still have that debate i will not get into it right now. what i found is a go on patrol, as the police cheese i am by myself i don't have anybody with me too handle t calls. i turned them over. also take them off. i remember early on with aee domestic violence scene i did not want to intervene. i thought they were going to arrest me and that makes the call and comes back and oya the made charges. again nobody was killed with a
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follow-up later to get charges. i went to see how the system worked. so i t came to the opinion based on the size of the city that i had a sneaking suspicion two things were happening. one, some officers were under reporting facts. because you do not want to believe the victim, they are lazy, or whatever. or two, we have some wanted to prove beyond a reasonable doubt of the side of the road is set of clearly looking at probable cause. to what i did was i started to making where the d.a. was not taking charges. when you think happened called to assess the scene to happen to charges? a they went out. think a little bit of both was going on because in my opinion if we are going to air were going to a no one is going to get killed and sometimes with theirs and arrest not that it needs to be prosecuted that is
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my mindset. having heard all of that i want to get your reaction. i wantex to expound on what your thoughts were in terms of domestic violence calls. >> in d.c. as you said for the salt was committee have to make an arrest. you're supposed to try to identify the primary aggressor , ifat you cannot do that you can arrest both parties of think they're both aggressors. and the reasoning behind that mandatory arrest rule was at the battle days you get a mail cop, you get a husband or a boyfriend who is beating and abusing his wife or girlfriend. i get a copy of said work it out walked away would not take it seriously. that was obviously a real problem, a huge problem. the rule was intended to say you can't do that you can't
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walk away and say work it out. it is your private business. the problem over the years, d.c. steadily expanded was defined as a domestic relationship. at this point adult siblings who share the same household were even former housemates are former roommates from several years ago are defined as having a domestic relationship. do not have that sameha power balance in classic spousal abuse will. one arrest or talk about briefly in the book, to adult sisters got into a scuffle because everybody was stressed when they were arguing about who left damp clothes in the washing machine. might've had a criminal record , the womanma we ended up having to arrest is the primary aggressor was a nurse and then she missed her hospital ship she had find somebody take care of her son. that is just >> that is just >>. that is the law on the books in d.c. needs to do more harm
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than good. the highlight we talked about earlier which is that arresting people does not solve every problem. it solves some problems. there are situations or just getting somebody out of the situation, just removing them if they're not prosecuted may benefit everybody, they cool off, everybody cools off and got some time to think maybe that was not so hot idea. and there are people who are violent criminals. who i am fine with having them arrested and fined having them go to jail for there are people who are predators and cause tremendous suffering in their communities. but i do think a lot of the kind of calls that we get in d.c. i'm sure you get in houston, are people with problems that cannot be solved by cops. they are poor, they are addicted they've got some substance they are addicted
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to. they have a family dispute they cannot figure out how to resolve their teenagers not listening to them there at the face of the state that's where they get calls a lot. they think who can help me? maybe the government and who is the government question what the governments cops to call the cops. it is just a tremendously difficult problem. as another issue raised in their really interesting set of questions to retrain officers well enough and what it means to establish probable calls and write a good report and so on. there's also an issue there where i wish we had more data. in d.c. about 30% of arrest made by d.c. metropolitan police and it being no papered which means the prosecutor says i'm not going anywhere, let the person go end of story
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that got an arrest on the record that's it were not doing anything. we do not know whether that 30% consists of cases where the problem was the officer did not establish probable calls what they wrote up. or whether that's mostly cases where the prosecutor thought that's the dumbest trivial arrest that i've ever seen. do not want to waste a penny more public money prosecuting this person for something so trivial, that is >>. depending on which it is, if it's the first want to train police officers better. if it's the second maybe we have a conversation between police, prosecutors and community about what the priority should be so that when o officers except in those domestic violence cases to have discretion, should i make an arrest should i not make an arrest should i give a warning should i try to direct some of the services? and have that conversation of the prosecutors are thinking where you bringing us these
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cases it is so trivial it's not worth public time and money to go forward, cops should know that. that could affect what they do when they encounter that kind of situation the next time. >> it's interesting you would say that when they take charges like i said earlier. here we get approval, get them to take charges. but what happened is we've got judges now did not want any to be prosecuted. note probable rulings are going through the roof. reject tells why once we get the report. actually pulling those reports and having supervisors, looking at them and making sure it's not a probable.
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the facts of the case or probable report writing. he think that's a good point you bring up. let me ask you this about your experience. how is the way you talk about policing these issues to your students change? does it change at all in terms of what you used to say and talk about and what you say and talk about as a result of your experience as a frontline police officer? >> i cannot answer that question i did not teach about policing until i started doing that. my area of expertise in international law and security laws what i taught until i started doing this. at a certain point i thought i am doing this reserve officer stuff i'm about to learn more about criminal procedure for instance and the best way to learn is to teach something so forces you to learn it. i'm so ice while having this experience. i think the point i made earlier, the one christy lopezs
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always drives home is one i really emphasized to students which is when you think about the situation, ask yourself two questions. you think about the question where it looks like a really awful thing happened as a result of policing, ask yourself two questions. one is this something that cops can change by themselves of the rest of us have to change, the law for instance. the other question is, when think about what decision a judges should have made, ask yourself what you know about the incentives that officers face and whether this rule will make a difference. to give an example, is if police officers don't know or care on somebody subsequently gets convicted than a rule were the court will throw out evidence that was obtained illegally in violation of the fourth amendment, does not
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have any great impact on their behavior. if you are a cop and thinking it's not my job to put people away forever, it's just my job to arrest them. then you do not really care if it doesn't go anywhere. on the other hand if you think my job performance ishe evaluated in part based on whether the rest i may go anywhere, then you're going to think about it really differently. to push them to recognize you have to have a more granular understanding of how policing works, which unfortunately is often very localized in order to figure out what the relationship is going to be their decisions and how officers on the ground actually behave. >> i agree. i like to say we have the most inefficient and ineffective policing model of the free world, in the civilized and
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industrialized world. i have 18000 police officers and 18000 sets of policies and procedures and training, levels of accountability is gone on the line. as a proponent for consolidation of police agencies. i just believe the taxpayer would get much more for the bang. i think we would be much better, accountability would be much better. everything is broken in this country. everyone wants local control. we have departments in texas a customer about 5300 police officers combined. what impact do you think consolidation of policing services, what impact could that have and is it something we should be talking about in this country? what happened in ferguson is a
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taxing arm for the local that use traffic enforcement is a fundraising mechanism. by the way it's not just that department, i've driven to that area of the country. seems like every mile this new minister polity. >> in every mile there is a police car rating to get a ticket. >> the speed limits change. we've all seen this across the country. what should we do? i think that would have an impact. >> in terms of consolidation before that is a really interesting way to approach the problem. i often have thoughts the things we read about in the papers big city police departments not always but
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typically, there is a reason for that which is journalist live in big cities and people in big cities know how to get information to journalists. they are under a u constantse spotlight. that is not a bad thing. knowing going to face public scrutiny that is appropriate if the states gives cops weapons and badges to take with people's liberty in their lives it's totally appropriate to face scrutiny it's a lot more on city departments to be accountable and to clean up their acts when they're screwing up when they know they're under that scrutiny. i often worry much more about this tiny little apartments nobody ever thanks about where we have no idea what is going on because they are too small. they are below the radar screen. i have a feeling that's where you actually find a lot i
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don't mean to paint every bit the same brush there's absolutely famous departments all over the country as well. but that lack of scrutiny that lack of transparency is kind of scary. i guess the other way you could try to get at that problem, this is something congress is so inclined could do, congress cannot control directly state and municipal law enforcement. but what it sure can do if it wants to is use the power of the purse and create some strong incentives. their massive grants if you conform to the standards if you agree to these processes, and give training curriculum that looks like this you have a lot of money, a lot of departments are going to say okay i kind of what that moneywi that will be great i will do
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that it's not a big deal. that's a really powerful tool we have not used enough and certainly not under president trump that was not his and ministrations priority at all. >> he tried to use it to force agencies to force immigration. >> that is true. >> we've got to be careful if we do it for one -- admin assertions come and go pretty solid executive orders, when they like the present whoever the executive orders they don't like the present to hate executive orders. congress needs to do their job. i think we've got to be real careful with that. but let me ask you this, maybe they don't like cops that much may be a progressive legal scholar that's teaching them
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when the challenges we have i get beat up and hate mail for bad policing incident that happened four years ago somewhere else and four years later i'm getting e-mail -- hate mail like it just happened today and it was my jurisdiction. and here is the challenges i see it, we have about 50000 people with mental health crisis a year or more. and last year we had one that would very poorly,. it went sideways and we ended up killing someone and my assessments, i was sergeant for three officers for those three you mention times of distance and training, day one out ask your viewers to find my presentations to the academy. on day one i talk about holding them accountable,
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utilizing time, distance, number, backup, concealments. when they use deadly force or any other force they need to be held accountable for utilizing those tactical considerations. we fired an officer in three officers per doggy so the union was not happy. the sad truth is that one instance made people forget the fact we are a learning site for the rest of the country. we have that will go wrong but we have tens of thousands go right. and the expanse you write about in the book, what percentage do you think, what we control what percentage do you think is bad policing and what percentage you think is cops in the right thing? the so-called bad apples. >> i saw very few bad apples. and i sawer very few moments
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when i thought somebody was doing anything worse than being a little bit more of atl jerk than they had to be in some pretty minor ways. i saw some comments that disturbed me that cops made in private away from members ofm the public. but, my experience was mostly working with good people who were doing their best to help people and solve their problems. that is something actually do emphasize to my students. as you said at the beginning, from hollywood and tv shows and news stories, people get the sense that being a cop consists of you go from shooting scene to high-speed chase to beating up a suspect to another high-speed chase and a hop homicide investigation. and the reality is it is much more mundane and positive. the reality is you're getting
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calls because somebody's neighbors a party is too noisy. getting calls because somebody said there fights, you are getting that kind of stuff over and over you getting calls are sub burglary alarm went off in a store. somebody shoplifted, petty thievery. you do get the shootings. you do get the homicide sprayed you to get the violent crimes. but the bulk of any given shift for o any given officer is dealing with these little things in dealing with people who are upset. i am so upset i can't sleep by neighbors having a loud party. it makes a difference you could be the one to go next door and say hey guys could you turn the music down? the kids next door can't sleep. usually people say oh yeah sorry about that. i also very rarely did i encounter hostility. on the contrary even in the neighborhood where you might expect more hostility, most people were cooperative, polite and would say things like thanks

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