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tv   After Words Rosa Brooks Tangled Up in Blue  CSPAN  July 7, 2021 3:15pm-4:13pm EDT

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the 60s in the 70s, get the book. thank you. speech of thank you think all of you for coming. >> tonight on book tv on "c-span2", space travel, we start with the book test god's, virgin galactic in the making of a modern astronaut rated and the author of liftoff, elon musk in the desperate early days launched space x and the conversation on the book, houston, my life in the center seat of mission control tv starts tonight at 8:00 p.m. eastern on "c-span2". >> coming up next, discussion with georgetown university law professor rosa brooks details her experience the reserved police officer in washington dc. she's interviewed by houston police chief art acevedo about her book "tangled up in blue" policing the market city.
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bangmac thank you for joining us and today i'm honored at and happy to visit with rosa brooks the author of an interesting book about policing in her experience of policing entangled up in blue" an american city. rosa, thank you forming on thanks for having me and i look forward to this conversation. i'm going to start off with this really pressing question, what inrt the world made you leave te confines of the classroom and your home in god and hit the streets in washington dc. rosa: wealthiest my family that, they would say insanity printed in the middle of a midlife crisis but you know, i'm just curious, that was probably the driving force that when defendant the dc has a reserve officer program. maybe just directing traffic or something but where you can be come a sworn officer, scott no way, that is crazy.
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management gone to professor. bado idea. so was probably then, just plain curiosity and and other thing is you know very well. policing is been in the spotlight for some years now and if you want to change something i think that you need to understand it and in doing this, seem like a very rare opportunity to get more insight into the world of policing. art: you remind me kind of when you say that, my lawyer that handles employee matters and she came from shell oil. and ier said why would you wanto come here. she said i wanted to have this moment in which he still hears her deputy director, new broken, you are taking a look from inside is a frontline police officer and going out into rough neighborhoods read they see first-hand i think the reality
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outside of the side of - or hollywood that is not the most accurate or three-minute bite. you say that in a nation, truly transformative response read. .[inaudible]. honey defined changes needed and what does that look like to you based on your several years of experience. rosa: that is a big question. enemy backup against by saying that when i was working on this book and tell people that i was working on a book about the experience as they would simply does your argument pretty did that so interesting, what is one version of the argument and i would say, it is complicated and people would say things like thh that i ever heard. and they were right.
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it is the world's worst elevator pitch but i think that i was like, it is complicated and in some ways, the goal of the book is to make things more complicated for people thinking about policing from the outside, and make it simpler. using this over and over. there's this kind ofer whiplash where self-sacrificing and underappreciated the heroes. i can be really hard to get into that conversation. there's good and bad and mixed up together and if we actually want to transform policing, we need to be grappling with that, all of that read some terms of what would make it better, i think a part of it as you know, police can't change the laws by themselves of the social contacts and i think that often policing the blame for enforcing because they didn't create and social context. we can't do much to change.
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in a way i think that when we blame police for that come his way for the rest of us not to look in the t mirror and say, cs are arresting people for really trail offenses, what we voted for the lawmakers who broke the laws and a let the cops to do that. we need to look at long prison sentences in mass incarceration and a lot of that is judges and prosecutors and lawmakers. so that is number one. there are some things that cops can'tt change but we as a sociey urgently need to change, massive criminalization that we sing of the last couple of decades. the cost and others in the services that might make some of what we do things that they don't have to do with a more. and that said, do think that there are a lot of things the police departments need to be doing. one of the difficulties of
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policing as we don't have a national police force, we have almost 18000 a different law enforcement agencies they don't always talk too each other they also talk to each other so is very hard even innovated and encompassing, it is toughve to t everybody to pay attention so the cities that have been ahead of the game, the departments been head of the game, they really focus one changing training, changing how and how they recruit and changing the kind off incentive structures that officers have in their shifts. happy to talk more about any of that. actually it would really like to hear more about what is going on in houston. i've had the pleasure through a program that some sponsored with new orleans police and the dc metropolitan communities on police academies to meet some of your staff working on curricular. but that has been a lot of fun. art: i think that one of the things that you mention here in your book is a policing is not
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as perfect as our greatest fans would say. is not broken like someone think. and what interested me is that both of those mindsets are very deeply held beliefs. what would you attribute that are how can we be diametrically some different in our perception of, movie critic versus support her. and obviously people fail to see things through the prism of other screed you have a very unique perspective because you are a law professor and it on the constitutional expert and on the law and what were supposed to be doing it with the intent of our founders work. versus the theory and case law and the realities that expands
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on the street greatest from your perspective, what can you say if you are talking to the site that need to not defend the police if long asro you say to them on yor perspective and what would you say to those who would say, on the policing side, black lives matter, cops went around and. [inaudible]. we find ourselves in policing in the middle of it and executives are kind of a whole the department to a standard and mindset into a level of professionalism expected by the tpublic. how would you dresses to premieo informed perspective from having marked our shoes. rosa: one thing that i've worn us so much from this experience but i guess by getting older. physician ever get, nobody's mind it wouldin ever change but being told that they are stupid or evil.
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done a very effective way to persuade them to do something different. i think that we live in a political culture that lends itself tore soundbites and stereotypes and slogans it does not lend itself very well to nuanced discussions. and that is not about policing, that's about almost every issued and the very divided of moment and it is hard to get people to listen. h i think that when you show on the vault abolish policel components in many of my students start with that position. his look, violent crime is real. it is not something that the far right meet up in order to have an excuse to lock up people of color. there is racism in the system, absolutely. we need to address that. be careful what you wish for when you talk to people who live
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in poor communities of color. you can get people that widely buried perspectives for many people will say look, it is not that we don't want cops in her neighborhood, we just walk up to protect us and we want cops we can trust. we don't want no policing we want better policing, different policing more respectful policing we want different better laws. i think that argument i always but enough and does resonate with people and when i here to defund the police, the cops get super defensive money here thati right. in the seventh district in washington dc where i was assigned, and the force morse crumbling police station in the city as well. so if you say to a cop there, that we should defund the police, they look at you that they have you seen our station. i'm using the vehicle and drive. i'm using my equipment.
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we don't have enough resources to do what were doing it now and if you take the money away, then what. because the polite version of their response. there's an angry version. art: . [inaudible]. rosa: bullet our viewers imagine the other version. but if you say to the cops and said, very different say, okay, what are things you do the frustrate you that you wish you didn't have to do and that you don't think that you should be doing. you take a mentally ill person to the emergency psychiatric clinic and you know that person will be back on the street without medications and a home to go to the very next day they say oh, their million things. and it's stunning we end up picking up the slack printed and then i think it could you to a much different much of a their conversation you are saying
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let's work together the critics in the place to talk about what this communities priorities arew do we would get them in an ideae world and how far are we away from them now about we gradually recalibrate investments so that we end up in the place where we all want to be. in this right think that you actually find the tremendous amount of promising ground between police officers themselves in the critics of policing. art: i think you are spot on in terms of, there is a way to talk about issues and what people forget is that words matter. kind of like when president trump talked about roughing them up so kind and gentle. and some other police officers and unfortunately, we know that didn't help us but works do better it matters in terms of elected officials talking about
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positions and it matters in terms of activist talking about these issues. so when you talk about abolish ice, the scares the heck out of people because ice when it is focused on that akers not necessarily their neighbors, has a legitimate function. as you go after people and how to approach the conversation one of the things that i've been frustrated by how much you saw about this but we talk about different thoughts. [inaudible]. i have been telling folks that we need to look at businesses of unjustified uses of force needed especially panel uses of force. i would argue that with the experience that be careful what you asked for because what we need is peopled to have the mind of recorded and problem-solving but there are times entry with
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interested you better have a heart of a warrior because i would argue that some of these deadly encounters over the years, is because we have people there were cops carry a badge and afraid of their own shadow and i can give you examples. so i the say that like in austin texas, were talking about we need to make the police academy warmer jail or and should not be this and here's the thing i would caution you. if we cannot test your model in terms of how you would react with adversity or psychological adversity in terms of people trying tong understand, i would hate to not be able to weed to somebody out this holding a gun. like a 17 -year-old african-american man in austin and an officer at the time, encounters him.
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any how to get in his hand. what we want to assess that kind of mindset. that kind of affair in a training environment. did you have any experience and we balance it how should we not balance it. rosa: that is a really hard issue. but i don't think that it should be at war. and a retired sheriff in washington now runs washington states academy. the problem there, she's the person who were undergoing a very influential article, called guardians versus warriors talking about these two different groups. one of the things that she said that i thought was very powerful inert law enforcement county they beat up training on desolation and honey just s tald to people.
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so you're not shouting is one in his giving orders to people. because just nobody ever takes change of mind when you to limit they were stupid and jerk, people are a lot less likely to do what you say when you sound likeke you're a jerk as opposedo being polite and courteous. so the really beat up the training on de-escalation skills they really beefed up the training on tactics to slow things down. the tactics to give yourself time and space distance you can use concealment so you don't end up creating dangers yourself and at the same time though, really beefed up the tactics and physical skills training. in her argument which is i thank you so absolutely right, is that all of these really the tragic police shootings were terms of the barbara person didn't pose a threat they were unarmed it may be armed but no threat, they were running away or whatever, the cop panics. people pull out their weapon sometimes when they panic.
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they don't have confidence that they can and will situation without a gun more likely to bother gonna partied her area of emphasis is to say that you know what, you gotta be better at those physical skills so that you will have the confidence to get into a situation and not immediately prefer the nonparty to know that you can handle and somebody pushes you are fun to shoot. but at the same time you also need to get better and all of those soft skills, how do you calm people down and how you treat them in a way that reduces the likelihood that somebody gets aggressive and violent. art: let me ask you this having gone through this experience, and this adventure at this final moment. what was your perception of policing from the outside looking in and after several years of your experiences in
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challenging environment, how did that perception change and how much of the perception ended up not being reality.ng rosa: i don't know that my perception changed. i think it got much more granular. when hannah grew up in a family of activists and my mother likey the police are the enemy. i grew up in a blue-collar town where a lot a of my friends had cops and their families and it printed no cops as people. somebody's dad, somebody's brother. and all the i've been all over the world, including places that have terrible things, terrible things happen in even the worst things are usually done by ordinary people who have come to believe that they have to do
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with knowing. there are psychopaths most people art. so i think going in, i'm immediately suspicious when i hear peopleehe say, anything tht seems to be dehumanizing. and it's when the police prefer to the communities that they work as animals. in her that in dc from officers is also dehumanizing when protesters call place the pigs. art: right right. rosa: for i smell bacon, or there's all sorts of things we can't say on this program. these are human beings. and everywhere i got in my whole life, we have human beings and we have the better ones we have some worse ones. and i don't think it changed my perception but what it did do was it gave me much more sense.
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here is what i thank you so the deal currently. what i said earlier that a lot of what is wrong with policing cannot be changed by police as a of policing, flaws and the criminal system and the socioeconomic decisions of the legacy. racism and sensory for places i'm afraid if cops can't do that and that means is that even if you are a good decent police officer and he wanted to policing the most idealistic reasons, you may find yourself making arrests that are unlawful but awful as we say. they're lawful but but that when you sort of look at the big picture, you tried to do an analysis you say that this is making the community better off. oh maybe not, actually making things worse. so even rule decent cops can end up making some of those structural economic and racial
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disparities even worse. and that's a tragedy but it's also not something the cops and fixed by themselves. the rest of us have to fix that. art: there's a system and unfortunately the most visible part of the system is with the police officers, we are on her cell phones and cameras and are actions are more than likely going to be captured in today's world. unfortunately allows this personality and systemic racism i would say just look at the sentencing over the years. in terms of cocaine and how people have treated it differently. and which community. to think a lot of anger sometimes that has for the people tend to send it towards
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police officers may be because the manifestation worse so other aspects and prosecutors own event say let's look at the defense bar, who gives a better defense. and i think it's all the way around. people who may be our anger or have mistrust. in the most visible part of the system t where maybe it lies somewhere else. it should be spent somewhere else. rosa: to be clear, think the department many of them have a lot of work to do. internally and i think police department which is a good police department, still imperfect and has a lot of work to do. i will let them off the hook but, that being said to come i absolutely right and this is something that my colleagues christine who worked at the justice department for many years investigating some of the
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most abusive police departments in the country rated like a focus in missouri were the voice that she always s makes when we speak together is in tomatoes policing. one of the points he makes to her law students is you guys are going to be legislatures going going to be the prosecutors and defense attorneys and even it if you're none i of those things yu will be the citizens who vote for all of this people. and you vote for the people who make the laws and don't go saying, the problem is that cops. you have got to be part of that change. when you're growing up in your prosecutor or your judge ran city council, you can just put your fingers to the place because going to enforce the laws that you make. they're going to prosecute people that you bring to them. no question about it. i think it's always easier to have a target. and police are an obvious,
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visible face of the states chorus of hours prayed in simpler and easier to direct the anger at them. people do not see the behind the scenes predict there's quite a lot that they cops could do differently but no question, the rest of us needs to take a long hard look in the mirror read sue and i would agree with that. we have been arguing in my role as the chiefs association when we testified about police reform ein both houses of the congress and the senate andng the house d the honor of testifying. one of the things that i talked about, think about the federal government. you talk about everybody else. a local cop you need to be transparent a and where body won cameras and put out your data in the newly the federal government. where are their cops wearing
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body worn cameras and when was the last time a federal agency had to charge one of the officers with a crime in terms of the use of deadly force. i would say a point of reference, you can't fully assess what is in front of you if you've got nothing to compare to. and i was on patrol, there was a chief in austin spent almost a decade there is a chief now here in houston so i've got lots of points of reference. yand it you can't really truly assess something unless you actually compare it so the question that i would ask of you is where is the transparency in terms of the breast of the justice system. what is that need to be and should we be demanding more transparency in terms of what is happening with our rescuers and are defense attorneys. saying that that is part of your area of life work is the law.
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rosa: i don't know if i would say the problem is lack of transparency as opposed to just plain lack of political will. so dc when you go through the criminal code, dc is kind of aware that city because with federal law that works by placing dc municipal code but you go through that there of the books there are so ridiculous and trivial they should not be criminal offenses at all in my point of view but nobody goes through it and it nobody sort of says let's take a look at this and see if the silk makes sense. kind oft cost-benefit analysis that i was talking about where you say okay, we could arrest 500 people for disorderly conduct and now some of them in-depth winning small amounts of prison timer can be fine and let's go their families in a
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complaint is a victims and if anybody is left better offer of everybody ends up being worse off as a result. we don't and have those conversations and those of these kinds of conversations we need toer have. stop and frisk in new york city and they declared the program unconstitutional because what they were doing it ended up it turns out this is definitely an area of transparency actually enabled the accountability to turn out when actually looked at the numbers carefully, that the police new york city where stopping a disproportionate number of african-americans relative to their population. the african-americans were less likely to have weapons thehe whe people i stop. which ended up being unconstitutional but also frankly means that cops overestimate threat from african-americans and underestimate threads from whites read in both of those are
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problems. both of those haveth to do with advisors and i can't help but to mention it in this regard since january 6, the u.s. capitol, i think really is the best in the works of policing. and at the same time, that partly the positions of the heavily military eyes police response to the summary racial justice protest in comparison with a seemingly very light response to the largely white mob of trump supporters on the bad side you obviously have a lot of officers behaving aerobically on the positive side. with that kind of is a bias is really dangerous because it means that you have overestimated some threats retreat almost entirely peaceful racial justice protesters like they're about to storm the capitol in effect or not an in-depth tear gassing them and so on the a lot of angry and upset and hurt people so you
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overestimate that threat and then you underestimate the real threat. turns out that the real threat was from people wearing blue lines shares. and underestimate that if were bias in why people with so slogans o punishers cannot do ay harm. but that was the real threat. art: i was so proud of the police officers they just put every thing on the line trying to protect and defend the seat of government. the people's house prayed i believe but as we continue and we've actually called for a robust inquiry into inquisitiono occurred and were going to find out if law enforcement leadership failed and were going toe find out if the political leadership failed. i english and let the experts to the assessments and hold them accountable we can right pretty good and obviously a lot of
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mistakes were made it beyond just m the executive but it's absolutely a failure. and footprint that we saw around the capitol is a footprint based on the open source data we have the threats and intelligence just aea very open call for action. should've been in existence on the fifth. on the seventh. and i was looking at those results and i hope the police chief will be proud of it, i just to the federal government and the politicians decide use. becausee we want people to get o the truth of the outcome this is really to get to the conversations. let me ask you this, we talk about in the difference between those in their successful than just those who catch themselves are really associate, i am acting this way because about it
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here or. as you are out there, and you are in the dark of night and during that call, did you ever find yourself on a call where you find yourself saying and recognizing, i'm letting my own bias and impact, mindset my fear. it means you're human. we all have them. did you have a moment may be informed to you. something that you didn't expect. rosa: that is a good question. it's a really hard question. i think you're right. sometimes the ten cops to get really defensive when you talk about implicit bias. now say i'm not racist. and i think that saying that this is not about you and your
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decisions and the biases that we all have, we get them so early on in our lives we don't control them become of the and people around us. you can't just whisk them away what you can do is try to be conscious of them and try to make sure that we don't give into them. and that it is not your fault but it is your responsibility to try to fix it and try to counter balance those biases that we all have. when i think about it, i can't think of a specific instances of the top of my head but i do think their moments when or when i go into, terrible neighborhoods in terms of crime rates and so on and in talking to somebody is really very thoughtful and smart and educated and i would find myself surprised. and that's implicit bias suit assuming that something intellectually i know is wrong. assuming that a week this is because this is a poor
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neighborhood that everybody me here is going to be poorly educated and that is just not true. so do think i caught myself and some moments of making assumptions that probably came out of my own bias and being embarrassed when i realized how erroneous the spots work. art: i think we have all been there and it's okay that we been there. i think the fact that you are in tune with your self and your own internal subconscious and bias and fears is important to be successful. there is something that you talked about in terms of the bond situations pretty you said that you made how mandatory arrest laws going too far and defines the family to broadly and cause discretionary limit give you an example. and i want to get your thoughts
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on what got you here. in houston when i got here, we have to contact an intake office and the officers in the field of two except charges before your rest of people. we have to deal with facts and reporting. tran 19. 19.rosa: sounds like a good ide. art: i don't like that because i think we should gather around we argued and we still have that debate. i won't get into it right now but i can't control the police chief and i get my black and white and by myself and turn them over to nd where the four stars when you do that pretty. rosa: i do. art: i remember early on in my
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career, there was a domestic violence thing and i wanted to intervene and i thought there should be there estimated there was injury in my officer came back and said they needed to do charges of what i did was there was a learning moment for me. and again, nobody cared and we can final up later to get charges. this is how our systems work. so i came to the opinion based on the size of the city that i had a sneaking suspicion two things were happening, one officers were under reporting the facts. because they don't want to believe the victim or the lazy or whatever. or we had some who wanted to prove the case with an reasonable doubt. instead of clearly looking at probable cause for you just did as i started to make sergeants look at the scenes where the d.a. was not taking charges.
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and they call it them to assess the scene and the chargers when up our unit so i think a little bit of both was going on. because in my opinion, we air on at least the person over the night. nobody will get killed and sometimes when there's arrest, method they need to be prosecuted or convicted and go to jail but to leverage to get them on the right path. that is my find it set. so having heard all of that i wanted to get your reaction and expound o on what your thoughts were in terms of domestic violence calls. that's another hard problem because in dc we have mandatory for domestic violence if there is probable cause an assault was committed, you have to make an arrest pretty so you're supposed to try to identify the primary aggressor if you can't do that, you can arrest both parties we think are both aggressive.
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and the reason they get behind that mandatory arrest rule was that the battles of policing you get a cop and you get a husband and a boyfriend who was of using it and his wife or girlfriend and you get a cop who market out and walked away wouldn't take it seriously. that obviously is a real problem. so the rule was intended it to say that you cannot do that, you cannot just walk away and say work it out for you did that is your private business. the problem over the years the dc expanded what was the point a domestic relationship. two adult siblings share the same household or even a housemates or former roommates from several years ago defined is having a domestic relationship. you have the same power of balance that you have in kind of a classic household situations. so onerous to talk about in the book, two sisters, they got into a scuffle because everybody was stressed they weress arguing abt
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who left because the washing machine. neither of them had a criminal record. the woman ended up having to arrest of the primary aggressor was mr. possible shift and judy is a way to take care of her son. i was just stupid. so that's a lot of think it the books that need to be seriously re-examined wouldn't that make them to do more harm than good living to your broader point, really highlights something we talked about earlier. which is that arresting people people does not solve every problem. to solve some solve some problems. there situations where just letting somebody out of a volatile situation just removing them even if they're not prosecuted make effective preventing them a cool off and that cousin time. and there are people who are violent criminals. i'm fine with having them arrested.
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there are ones who are predators and caused tremendous suffering in their t communities. but i do think that a lot of the kinds of callshe we get in dc fm houston are people who have problems that can't be solved by cops. people with problems, therefore, they're addicted to some substance are addicted to their having family dispute that they can't figure out how to resolve rated teenagers not listening to them. whatever it may be. they don't feel like they have any and part of the reason the cops get blamed is because the visible face of the state is also the reason the chemicals a lot because people think well, who can help me. the government made the government can help. as the government will pay are the cops. it's a tremendously difficult problem. the really interesting question is how do we train officers and
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what it means to establish probable c cause and write a report and so on. there's also an issue there an area where i wish we had more data. in dc about 30 percent of arress have been made by the metropolitan placing of being a prosecutor said i'm not going anywhere within some of let the person go in of sorry. and rest of the record, not that they go to court and they could dismiss. they're not doing anything. we don't know whether that 30 percent consists of cases where the problem was the officer didn't establish probable cause and what they wrote up or whether this mother cases where the prosecutor that was just thehe dumbest most regular rest of ever saying it and want to waste any are pending more of public money because getting this person for something so trivial. depending on which it is, it was a first want to police officers better.
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this is saying, they we need to have a conversation between police and prosecutors in the community about the priorities should be so that when officers except the domestic violence case do have discretion pretty sure to make an arrest to note make an arrest printed should try to direct them to services and have a conversation about if the prosecutors are thingy wiring bringing us these cases that are so trivial that it is not worth public time and money to go forward argued cops should know that because that may affect what they do when they encounter a situation the next time. art: it is interesting that you would say that about when the d.a. discharges like i said earlier, here we actually get approval to take charges but what is happened is that we have judges now can call them activist judges. they don't want anybody to be prosecuted. a handful of judges.
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so there going through the roof on the no probable cause. so what we do if there's a daily project, actually have come to tthe agreement they will tell s why was the get the report. and if there's's a no probable cause rule, were actuallypu pulling this reports having supervisors looking at them making sure it's the problem the actual case in the back to the case for problem with the report writing. the good point. let me ask you this about, how has the way that you talked about policing in these issues to your students changed. it hasn't changed it all in terms of foot you used to say talk about and what you say talk about as a result of your experiences as a frontline police officer. i can answer that question because a tenant a teach about policing and how it started to do this for unit really international law and national
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security laws my area of expertise. until it started to do this and in certain point i thought, i'm going this reserve officer r stuff, i also learned more about criminal procedure for instance and as for the learning is that forces you to learn it. so i started teaching law on this experience but i do think the one i made earlier the weather kristi lopez all always drives home iss within a really emphasize to students when you think about the situation, ask yourself two questions. where it looks like an awful thing happened as a result of policing. ask yourself two questions, one is this something that cops could change themselves or is it something the rest of us have to change the law for instance. the other question is when you think about what decision you think should been made ask yourself what you know about the incentives about the certain space and whether this role rule
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will make a difference for instance and as an example, if police officers do not know or care that somebody subsequently gets convicted, then a rule where the court will throw out evidence that the evidence was obtained illegally doesn't have any great impact. because if you're thinking so my job but to put people away forever, just my job is to arrest them and you don't really care doesn't really go anywhere and on the other hand, if you think that no, my job performance is evaluated in part based on whether the rest to make go anywhere. then you're going to think about it differently freighted to pusm them to recognize that you have to have a more granular understanding of how policing work and impartially in our country, is often very localized. in order to figure out what the
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relationship is going to be between how the judges interpret the law in their decisions and how officers on the ground actually behave. art: i agree pretty you touch on this earlier. i would like to say that we have the most efficient and effective policing model and free world. in a civilized industrialized world pretty ... ... they want local control so we have departments in texas go from one officer where the chief is, i'm not making this up to
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departments like the houston police department where we have about 5300 police officers combined what impact do you think consolidation of policing services from what impact have something talking about in this country? there's no department thatt was taxing on for the local municipality that used traffic enforcement as a fund-raising mechanism and by the way, it's not just that department. after into the area of the country, it seems like every mile there's a new municipality for about a mile and a half. >> and every mile there is a police car. >> and the speed signs, speed limit change. we've all seen this across the country, what should we do?
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>> is a great question, i've not thought about it in terms of consolidation but that is an interesting way to approach the problem. i do think it is a huge problem and i've often thought for the things we read about in the papers or see on tv usually involve big city police departments, not always but typically and there's a reason for that, journalists live in big cities and people in big cities know how to get information to journalists big city departments are under constant spotlight. that's not a bad thing because i think knowing we face public scrutiny that's appropriate. if the state gives crops the power to take away liberty in size from is appropriate suspect your face scrutiny but i think is there is a lot more pressure on city departments to be accountable
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and clean up their act when they are screwing up because they know they are under scrutiny. i often worry much more about the tiny little apartment that nobody ever thinks about where we have no idea what's going on because they are too small. they are below the radar for most of the national cs and i have a feeling that is where you find a lot of the bad stuff andd i don't need to paint everybody with the same brush, i'm sure there are fabulous small sheriff departments all over the country as well but the lack of scrutiny transparency t i think it's kind of scary. i guess the other way you could get the problem, this is something congress if it was so inclined could do. congress can't control directly statee visible law enforcement but what it can do if it wants to use the power of the first and create pretty strongon
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incentives. police department like the rest of us program where the money is and if you have officers say there are massive grants if you do this is that the other think if you conform to these standards and processes training curriculum like this, if you get a lot of money, a lot of the permit was a i kind of want that money, that would be great, i'll do that, because they see us so that is a powerful tool we have is enough and certainly under resident trump that was not his administration's priority at all. >> he tried to use it to force agencies to enforce immigration. >> that's true. >> we got to be careful because if we do it for one, administration come and go so it's like executive orders, executive orders if they don't like the president needs to do theiro job so we got to be
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careful with that but let me ask you this, you got a unique perspective coming from a family progressive from a link like pop much maybe professor, attorneys but i'd like to say one of the challenges we have is we live in a world of the new cycle, i get beat up and hate mail for critical incident, that policing, four years ago somewhere else and four years later i'm getting e-mails hate mail like a happened today in my jurisdiction when both of those work facts andd here's the challenge as i see it, here in houston we have about 50000 mental health crises a year and last year we had one that went
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sideways, ended up killing somebody in mental crisis, travis junior in my assessment, the three officers you mentioned in terms of training, on day one i would ask viewers to look at my presentation to the academy cadets on day one for i talk about utilizing time, backup, product concealment whether they use deadly force or any other force for utilizing those considerations, we assign three officers, one present happy but the sad truth is, that one need forget the fact that we are a learning site for the rest of the country, we have that one go wrong but we had tens of thousands] the experience you write about in the book, what
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percentage do you think what we control, we control our own hearts, what percentage do you think is bad policing and what percentage is caps on right? >> i saw very few bad apples and very few moments when i thought somebody was doing anything worse than being a little bit more of a jerk then they had to be in pretty minor ways, i saw some comments that disturbed me crops made in private away from them as of the public but my experience was mostly working with good people doing their best to help people and solve their problems that is something i emphasize to my students, as you said in the beginning from
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hollywood and tv shows and news stories, people get this sent that being a cop consists of shooting to high speed chase beating up a suspect to another in a homicide investigation and the reality is, it's both much more mundane and more positive, the reality is you're getting calls becausere somebody's neighbor's party g is to noisy d somebody says their bike got stolen, or getting that kind of stuff over and over, is a burglar alarm that went off in a store or somebody shoplifted, petty thievery and you do get the shooting, the homicide and violentho crimes but the bulk of any given shift for any given officery is dealing with these little things and people who are upset and i'm so upset i can't
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sleep, my neighbor is having a loud party, it makes a difference you could be the want to go next door and say could you turn the music down? the kids next door can't sleep and usually people say sorry about that i very rarely encounter hostility. on the contrary even in a neighborhood where you might expect more hostility, most people were cooperative, polite and would say thanks, officer partly because theyy o know youe usually there because somebody called you, somebody wanted you to come in fact i think people do miss that does not excuse any are bad behavior, even the petty rudeness, that's not to say -- the root -- crops are the root, the board. >> the fact that you have decent people who really are helping people doesn't for one single second excuse any of the bad things but is important for people to understand. i think of this as parallel my field before this was thinking
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of the role of national security and the military and the marine corps has a concept called strategic barbara the idea behind that was remember that guy who beat up around protests are wrapped all around islamic world the americanam soldier was caught peeing on acheron, was he represented it of u.s. forces? no, he was a lung ranking soldier, his own stupid obnoxious act that led to chaos for u.s. forces globally and the concept of the strategic role twisting there is no such thing as a purely tactical system anymore, even lowest ranking person, if they do something particularly bad, the whole world is going to know about it. ten minutes later, somebody will have another cell phone and we need to drink to that, we need to train people to that, we can't just say to the low ranking soldiers, just do what you're told, we need to have them understand here is the kind
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of town you need, we need them to be critical thinkers and good judgment and nuanced understanding of what we are trying to do here because we have to expect totally fair people will put us under a microscope, you give people that much power, they have to expect that level of scrutiny so it is hard and it does create stress for officers, that feeling of even if i just make it an honest mistake, like failing to turn on my body worn camera, people do it all the time, they forget. they're not just trying to hide something, they just forgot. if ii make a mistake like that, people are going to think i am a monster so i could hide my abusive behavior and i can't handle the pressure and it is hard but i also think crops have of deal with it
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because that is the world we live in. >> it's the world we live in the book, thanks for writing the book. thanks for taking the challenge of learning about police from the inside of a set of the outside in, thanks for the conversation.. "tangled up in blue". >> thank you. ♪♪ >> weekends on c-span2, intellectual, every saturday inside, people exploring our nations pass on american history tv. on sunday, book tv brings the latest in nonfiction books and authors my television for serious readers. learn, discover, explore. weekends on c-span2. ♪♪ >> next under tv, bill, former head of police department and

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