Skip to main content

tv   Amanda Tyler Justice Justice Thou Shalt Pursue  CSPAN  July 5, 2021 11:20am-12:31pm EDT

11:20 am
you when i bring followed by new york times columnist margaret late migrations. after that is i'll take you there, a historical guide to social justice nashville by professors amy and williams junior. next is another essay collection, the book of the might and wrapping up a look at some of the best-selling nonfiction books, according to nationals books, forget the alamo in which authors bryant burrell, chris tomlinson and jason stanford will quickly call mythologized history of the battle of the alamo. some of these authors have appeared on book tv and you can watch their problems anytime at >> hi, everybody. welcome to the commonwealth club virtualto program, i am going to be your moderator today. big thanks to the bernard
11:21 am
foundation for supporting today's good list of events, ity is my tremendous pleasure to introduce you all to amanda tyler, shannon turner professor of law at the university of california berkeley possible, also co-author along with justice ruth bader ginsburg ofsb justice, justice about child pursue. wife's work writing for a more fperfect union. pfizer tyler teaches and writes about the supreme court, federal courts, constitutional law andci civil procedures. last year she received a law matter award for teaching distinction. professor tyler clerked for justice ruth bader ginsburg and their book, justice, justice back child pursue is an outgroup of justice ginsburg visit to uc berkeley in 2019. she interviewed her about her life. building on the interview, the
11:22 am
book is a compilation of materials with justice and ginsburg life and lasting legacy. we will hear more about her work pretentious just nomination fighting for equality protecting the u.s. constitution. a quick reminder to our viewers, if you have a question for professor tyler, please submit the question into the chat. professor tyler, a pleasure to talk to you about your book and i'm going to begin by asking you kind of where it all started from about the conversation which i mentioned will get to that in a moment but the clerking you did with justice ginsburg in the late 90s, early 2000's. how did you describe your relationship at that time? lots of people who have the opportunity to clerk for a judge wouldn't necessarily say it's close or friendly, how would you
11:23 am
describe it? >> that's interesting because i had stopped mary cases. in both cases i was very lucky to become lifelong mentors and their friends in fact not to say in both cases, especially at the supreme court were not intense, did not involve considerable part work, justice ginsburg, many people may know but certainly if you worked for her, he knew one of the hardest working individuals ever to cliff, she had an extraordinary work ethic and expected the same her quirks, she had standards held us up to the standards for she never asked more of us than herself and i think that is a special thing about her leadership and mentor shiphi because she sort of carries you
11:24 am
along with her in in effect, he wanted to prove yourself with her and rise to your very best. i've analogized working for her to -- on big on sports analogies like playing on a sports team with michael jordan or megan carpino for soccer, she just pushed you to rise to be your best bet she also invested in us and she did it in real time, it wasn't something that came necessarily just later. for example, when we would go back and forth with her one of the main things was work with writing opinions so we give her a draft, openings and we give it to her triple space pages it would come back completely covered in ink and it becomes a theme because it began with the book 20 years later, we can get to that in a bit but she would sit down with you and i remember
11:25 am
once going to her house sitting at the dining room table next to her and going mind by client, she would explain why she wanted to make the changes she was making and that's interesting because it shows she wasn't just extracting work from us, she was investing in us and mentoring us in real time and that's something she kept doing all the years after but she also made it fun. i want to emphasize that because among other things, she took us to gilbert and sullivan, she took us to the opera, she took us for private tours of the national gallery she arranged for us and the whole chamber staff into the opera inan particular, she's famous having left theam l opera, it was realy something, we went to the poster and the day before she brought in the clerks and we sat around her roundtable and she described to us stories and if you have
11:26 am
seen it, you know there's something at the end where she is crawling along the stage and the justice acted that out for us so that is a favorite memory because it's a no into how much she loved opera and there was this fun side to her and the courtship and it was always about not just the work, it was about a larger good life, if you will. it wasn't like interviewing her in order to get back courtship, what you remember from it? >> i remember being incredibly nervous. [laughter] my nerves were all make not as bad as they would have beenbe because she invited me to interview in the middle of my and your final exam of my third year of law school so i have my federal courts exam, i can't remember because of such a blur, either the day before or the dao after the interview but in any case, i had two things i was really nervous about and i now teach the course so that gives you an idea how important it wat
11:27 am
even to me vent. i flew down from boston and i remember going in and being incredibly nervous because this is the winter of 1997 -- eight, she had written the decision and will probably talk about that, one of her biggest most important decisions the prior year end i was studying that case in her opinion as well as her advocacy in the 1970s and moscoso she was already something of a personal hero to me vent to interview for the opportunity to work for her was incredible but what i remember most are two things about that, the firstth is when i went into her office after having talked to her clerks were amazing and for group of clerks remained good friends to me. she immediately put me at ease and this is something i think a lot of people may not know about her but there was no ego.
11:28 am
she was incredibly kind, she didn't try to fill up the room, she was welcoming and gracious and poorr people at ease very quickly and that was something very special about her and make you want to be around her more. the other thing i remember about the interview, most is a blur. he offered me a clerkship at the end of the interview and i said yes as fast as possible before she could take it back but i remember when i went to the airport to fly home,er i calledy grandparents i was very close to them and ian explained to them i was very proud, ier was just invited to clerk for ruth bader ginsburg two questions followed. my grandfather first said, what is a clerkship? is that a real wire ship job? was real concerned. my grandmother said who's justice ginsburg? she didn't know who ruth bader
11:29 am
ginsburg was and so i explained to her that this was a woman who has done so much to open up opportunities particularly for women and she has changed the landscape for women in this country and my grandmother said my gosh, she's hasas incrediblei am so proud of you will work for her and i went home and wrote the justice a letter and i said please and honored i was to be invited to be her clerk and i relate this story telling my grandparents, she wrote me back and include a letter within the letter my grandmother sent on to my grandmother and had it framed and hung it in a prominent place on her living room wall for the rest of her life so that is also a window into the justice kindness, that didn't take very long for her but she is a supreme court justice, her time is valuable but it was a gesture with a major impact on someone. >> would you describe yourself,
11:30 am
the two of you as friends? you tell a funny story about when she found out you were dating somebody particularly significant, tell that story. >> shortly after i finished my clerkship with her, i remained very close with her assistance who are two extraordinary women, linda and kathy and i became close with her assistance when they retired but i was constantly talking with linda and kathy and i might in a conversation, i said i think this one is special and it wasn't five minutes after i was speaking with one of them my phone rang and the justice called and said i understand there's someone special in yours life, we'd like to meet him so what are you doing tuesday? so we went to dinner and it turns out it was one of the
11:31 am
first times have been out in public after treatment for collector cancer after all treatments were completed so the evening, the four of us got written up because of the washington post, it's always funny because the justice and friends and we were happy to be and friends but the best part is, the next morning i got to work and the phone rang and the justice would like to speak with you and she got on and made very clear this one got a big thumbs up and of course i wouldn't be telling the story if i hadn't gone on to marry this individual and have a family with him but it was really special because it's another window how she was out for her clerk, she cared about us, it was a very special lasting from a counter for a great deal in life you. in no large measure because i had the privilege in the prior t
11:32 am
year watching her and marty's marriage and thinking i want that because it was truly a love affair for the ages. >> talk to me about marty, he was a special individual but also a very special person to her, talk about their relationship and i don't know of a better word to use than devotion because every story centers around his devotion to her. >> i think that is a great word to describe it, the word i often use partnership in the true sense of the word, they met in college, she tells the story of it in the book, it is a wonderful story. they went to law school together, they were a m yea apart, they chased tremendous adversity when they were in moscow. marty had cancer, he was not at all clear he wouldn't live through the cancer, they had 14-year-old daughter when she started law school, when the
11:33 am
justice started law school ehsomehow they got through all f it and she talks about this in the book and she says once we got through that, he believed we could get through anything, one day at a time but we have this confidence that no matter what came our way we would prevail and what emerges and what you see both in her description in the book but also those of us who knew them came to see there was this devotion, he was the biggest booster. history bears that out, this is someone who was instrumental raising her profile as a candidate to the supreme court and worked very hard to get president clinton to consider her because he believed in hernt and knew she had these great talents and contributions to make and also devoted to her behind the scenes as well and she talks about this in the book, he was devoted to sharing the parenting and an important
11:34 am
thing because when you think about when she is coming up, society did not support working women at all. those of us who are working mothers today we complain society isn't doing much we had so much more than she had. she had somebody who was supportive of her career from the beginning and wanted to be an equal parent and she systat as a major explanation why she was able to do everything but he was also devoted in all the little ways, too. i think about the year when i clerked for her, she had cancer, it was her first bout with cancer and he would come and sit in her office and he would beg her until she would agree to come home because he thought she was working too late and needed to rest. he madeee special meals to help keep her weight up. a member the first time with my new husband and they came to dinner, he showed up with
11:35 am
baguettes under his arm because he said no bakery could make a decent baguette, is a phenomenal baker and a chef but also showed up with a flask in his pocket because her drink was campariri and soda nobody ever had campari in their bars, in their homes or at events so everywhere they went, he brought the flask to make sure his sweetheart could have her signature drink and back roads back to your word of the devotion.t it went both ways. the other thing and final thing i'll say is when she and i were working on the book this past summer and i sent her a draft of the introduction, i had a discussion of marty in there because he was such a large figure in her life and the story of all she accomplished but she wanted more so that shows you a window into the devotion that
11:36 am
went. >> i was going to ask you about the importance of marty to a lot of the groundbreaking work she did because often the stories are around how much they loved each other but he was also used to monitor her work as well and i think wanting him in the book even more was an indication ofn it was beyond just i love him, i will he loves me, we are devoted was essential. >> a big part of it was not even just marty but extended family, she talked most in her rose garden ceremony when she was nominated to the court in her testimony before the senate judiciary committee at her confirmation hearings, she talked about how marty supported her from day one but also her in-laws did as well and i think that was a big part of the story how she was able to do everything and do it in the face of years when she was coming along and society was not supportive of women in the workforce and certainly women in
11:37 am
the legal profession but marty was also it's not just that he helped with parenting support her and was cheering for her and promoting her career, it was also that he was instrumental watching her career as an advocate for gender equality what i mean by that is many people know if this story, if they have seen the movie on the basis of sex and we included in portions of the brief from this case, he picked up a case, is a great tax lawyer and this is important to highlight, he was a huge deal in his own right and like his wife, he did not carry a bigs yoke go so he was not signed by her success and liked to joke that was jealous of but, she had a job he loved to have but i never sensed that actually for real and going all the way
11:38 am
back, he was reading a tax court review sheet or tax court notes that would come out and he saw a reference to a case involving gender discrimination, the case at the center of the movie on the basis of sex and he has hurt the sheet and as she tells it, she sent i don't do tax cases and said that beneath me and he said look at this one and within moments, she said let's take it and they called andne said we would like to handle your case for free over aai tax deductions a never married man, did not qualify for but if he was a never married woman, he would have received the deduction to take care of his mother and fay took the case and litigated it together and we had in the book, we have the brief they filed which is the first brief she
11:39 am
ever filed in gender discrimination and it lays out the framework for what she's going to do for the next decade. marty was a big part of that and he was actively involved in the case and then he stepped to the side and she took it from there. >> i mentioned that the book arises out of her visit in 2019 to uc berkeley so tell me a little bit about that and what made you want to y turn the conversation into a book he would co-author with her. >> became to berkeley to honor a woman, she was the second woman appointed to the berkeley faculty and first woman -- their friendship went back to the early 1970s when they met at a conference they sided with a third co-author to write what iewould become the very first casebook on sex discrimination and the law so they effectively
11:40 am
found gender discrimination in her law so i call her irma, she was my colleague but i call justice ginsburg but justice. they remain lifelong friends and closest and best of friends. irma tragically passed away in 2017 and colleagues of mine endowed a lecture in her honor, there's no one better to get the first lecture in justice ginsburg so i invited her to come to my delight but not my surprise, she said yes, absolutely and what is interesting is originally she was supposed to come in early 2019 but because doctors discovered lung cancer and she had to have surgery, we had to postpone she resisted postponing. it was so important to her to come honor her that i had to entrust her family and others to prevail on her that she didn't
11:41 am
to not travel and she only went to her doctors said no, you cannot travel at that time we postponed but she immediately reschedules for a new date andd came in october 2019 to the event to honor her and i will share, she was not at full speed, she was still undergoing treatment, knockback and treatment for patriotic cancer so it was a struggle to come but it was important to her, and honor her the book arises out of that because in the lead up to her visit, we learned the university of california press was considering publishing her most backslash book called paving the way, america's women first while professor, it's a book that chronicles the stories of the very first women academics in the walk women who came before her justice ginsburg had written the introduction for
11:42 am
that book and get it still had not published and several publishers we knew turned it down some justice ginsburg got the idea it might be fun for us toto take our conversation and plan it carefully and turn it into a book but we only offer it to the press saying we wanted them to take her most book, to and they were to be greased release together. >> was the conversation about the approach? i'm confident you were truly co-authors really partners how to think about it and even how to promote it and frame it, talk to me about those conversations. >> she and i went back and forth extensively before the event the conversation that we are going to have to plan a conversation about the art of her life so that request component, we
11:43 am
wanted to cover her life from her childhood her time on the supreme court, i know i did and she did, who wanted to talk about her family and marty. then we had an extensive series of back and forth talking about what materials could we bring ii complement the conversation and also create a collection that would give the reader overwhelmingly in her own words, an idea of what was important to the justice, what her life's work entailed and what she thought about in terms of her contributions and she wouldn't use the word but i would use the word legacy. >> i'm going to interrupt you and have you continue on with your answer, did you feel like she already had several types of cancer, elderly by the time you
11:44 am
are having this conversation, did it feel like the legacy interview, this is, to make sure we are getting everything in because we are assessing my life as we get closer to obviously her ultimate death tax. >> that's hard to answer and here is why. it was hard to seem honest to accept back when my head told me that this is someone who has pancreatic cancer again which is a terrible cancer, this is someone who's been through so much, ias knew she was facing formidable challenges especially once we got to summer, i knew she had been in the hospital and it wasn't going well and get my heart told me she would live forever and i can't explain it, i tried most of the time to be a
11:45 am
logical person but she had endured so much, i have seen upfront and close how extraordinary her resilience was and her perseverance was her dedication to being a public servant and doing her part to try to make arv contribution tht i just never could quite grasp the idea that and was near so even though in the days leading up to the news of the tragic news when it came, i suspected for various reasons that something had taken a very wrong turn, i was still shocked when the news came and it was very, very hard to take. >> when i say that, then hopefully you can understand when i was working with her although i was thinking about this in some respects of paint a picture of your life and make sure you give readers an idea what matter to you and what you
11:46 am
thought about, what work you want to inspire people to keep doing, i was never thinking i'd be cap talking with you without her, but she would not be. i know this makes no sense but given what the public knew, i thought she was superhuman and i just didn't overtime she wouldn't be here. >> what was the price was like to be working with her? she was clearly a hard worker, how did that back in? >> she was an incredibly hard worker. her meticulous major force none, she was with the highest standards and so careful. it was likely her marquardt epic. some people might cringe but for me it was like this is great, i
11:47 am
had a fabulous clerkship with her, i loved working with her. i left the subject matter of the book, it is special to me so it was a joy to be able to work with her and such a privilege to say to her okay, i think we should give some opinions because one thing i wantth to convey about the book that was very conscious decision on our part, we wanted to create a book a non- lawyer could pick up and read and its entirety and really get the full sense of who she was and what mattered to her and what work was central to her identity. >> non- lawyers truly appreciate that, by the way. i've heard from many people they think we've succeeded in that regard and that makes me so happy because i wanted people who were not trained lawyers to know more about her in those conversations, it became okay, a
11:48 am
portion on your advocacy and i said how about including a mortgage brief because that's never been published and that is hit historically significant and i knew it was special to her because it was with martic. we talked about what else should we include? or favorite arguments? we included portions of her favorite arguments before the supreme court, she had six she 15 and that bears highlighting because that's an extraordinary average for someone in the supreme court but had her favorite so those are in there for different reasons and we talk about that and we could certainly talk more about that but what i would say really most fun part was to say all right, boss, you've been a judge 40 years, 27 years on the supreme court, she'd written over 1100 opinions over those years, what are your favorites? in talking with her and having a
11:49 am
back-and-forth and what was upfront about that gives you a window into how involved she was, there were times when i would go back to her and say i called her justice our boss, i really like your opinion, i think we should include that and she said no, those are the fourh she was very thoughtful about the port she included in each was in there for a different reason as i'm sure we will discuss. >> i was going to say three of the four -- so talk about some of those cases, what made them or favorite? >> this is someone who did not like to lose and that's okay. it's okay to say you don't like to lose and when she wrote this, particularly the ones she chose to include here, she felt strongly these three in particular, she thought the
11:50 am
court erred as she said in her statement, egregiously and i think she chose them, and here is where i'll step out of my position and try to walk in her shoes although i would never speak for her, but i think she knew this was likely to be her last work and there are conversations we had where she conveyed that when i put that together with the choices she made, i think the choices was her way of saying to all of us that these are areas she wants to keep up with the right she waged so in particular in the context of voting rights, shall be counter is in their and in my view, that is a descent for the ages, and extraordinary force that decimates the majority opinion points out how crucially important having a rigorous infrastructure in place for
11:51 am
voting rights is. the center for those who don't know, she dissented to the supreme court effectively guiding the preclearance requirement that stopped laws, voting changes going into effect in so-called color jurisdictions that have history of voting discrimination in fact part was no longer in operation and she writes explaining all the reasons why thishe is profoundly guide and something we have seen played out in real liveom now bt there are also disconnection cases including reproductive rights case and also an area where she thought the court, if anything, it was backward and she talked time and again howo important reproductive freedom was to women's ability to control their own destiny so t including these, it was her way saying to the reader this is
11:52 am
work that's ongoing and i need you to join me because i'm not going to be here forever. >> do you think it was predictive, predicting in a way, not just here's what i i didn't finish but here is where may be going and if you look at what's happening in georgia, i think many people figure out in great depth the voting rights act because we talk about it now all the time and by the supreme court so did you get the sense it was not just here's what i had unfinished but i believe this is not going away for the rest of you who are carrying on? >> absolutely. when she passed away, she knew there were major voting rights cases coming to the court and granted one for this term from a case in arizona another covered
11:53 am
jurisdictions like georgia, it failed previously preclearance procedure so she was aware of all the voting rights changes in voting loss changes taking place, i think she appreciated that this was a huge issue and the same could be said about the work that remains to be done on gender rights and reproductive justice.e. these were issues that were l extremely timely and if only think about they've only become more substance she's passed away. >> talk to me about gender discrimination, what cases specifically do think she was highlighting focus on pets, this is work that still needs to be done? >> one of the things she talks about in the book and the choices of materials that come in highlights the importance of
11:54 am
women to be able to control regard reproductive lives, thoughts and important component to truly be equal and control their careers destinies but also in the case, an important case involving ongoing discrimination, thousand case she cared deeply about. she talks how important it is for the law and theoretical decisions the supreme court makesre at high levels, howmp important it is to connect legal roles the court adopts the real world. this is something based on her experience and you see it play out with other justices, life expenses they bring to the court and fair judging color how they think about how the law functions in the real world that was an important legacy justice ginsburg judging, i think we see it in other judges but it
11:55 am
certainly comes through in her letter petter descent where she talks about an all male majority making it hard for women to bring cumulative pay discrimination cases, you don't understand what it's like to be the only woman in the workplace. the second you discover where the victim of his termination from were not going to scream at all, you're going to pause and think because if you complaint right away, you are going to be labeled a troublemaker so to think about how the law intersects with real-world dynamics of the workplace and what it is like to be the only woman in the workplace. i justice ginsburg was many times in her experience so that i think is a broader lesson, not limited to gender discrimination, it's how important it is to think it connects, the law supreme court has gone next to the real world
11:56 am
but it played out very well and prominently in her gender discrimination. >> you include in the book a speech she gave at a naturalization ceremony, why was i included? what did she say and what was the relevance of that totde include? >> that's a special part of the book, i will say that was supposed to be the end of the book because she passed away, i did write and afterward after the fact but as i said in the first line of the afterward, this was not supposed to exist. the naturalization speech is magnificent and i would urge people if you can to google it and watch her deliver it because it's a spectacular setting, national archives delivers it so beautifully. that and other speeches we included, they are speeches she had given in recent years not published and we included them
11:57 am
because that in particular for all of them, they show her at the end of her life in a very reflective mindset so she's thinking about her life and talking, another speech she was talking about jewish women beinn role models when she was growing up, in this speech, she talks magnificently family and child and frank and how hot she was and how much she loved her country and that her family fled germany and all but happening there and an opportunity to build a group life. she celebrated and elsewhere she
11:58 am
was the daughter of an immigrant and yetnt somehow wound up on te supreme court and that was something she loved about our country and i think families history gives you a window into why she left this country so much and was so devoted to serving this country. in that speech she talks about two more things. each special in their own right. the first is when talking about the united states, says the tocqueville was right, we are not special because we are morer in mind other countries but what makes america special is we face up to our faulty and address them and try to learn from them and try to do better than that is a big component for what she did as anri advocate and the jue tried to tell us think it more
11:59 am
just generally open up opportunities for everyone to live a full and happy life she is a special part in why i wanted it to be the last component of the book. she says to these individuals who come from all over the world to joan joined our citizenry, she says now this is your constitution, to this is a theme that goes back to her confirmation proceedings where she said it is not i up to the supreme court to protect our constitution, it's up to everybody so she says the newest citizens in the u.s., your constitution, to end the constitution calls on all of us to build a more perfect union and now that's something i want you to pick up and join in the work of doing and that's how she thought about the constitution, it belongs to all of us so that
12:00 pm
is an important message we wanted the book to resonate with or people who read the book to resonate that. >> we got lots of questions coming in, i encourage everybody to keep sending questions and i'll get to them in a moment i'm going to ask one last one before we get to those. talk about her ethical barometer.ta for almost hardwiring for integrity, i guess is the way that it seemed to those of us very much on the outside. is not an appropriate way to put it, would you say? ...
12:01 pm
a student asked what advice do you have? she said do something outside yourself. take your talent if you're at an elite law school, take your talent and go make the world better for others. don't just go make a paycheck, and don't just go make money with your law p degree. that is how she lived her life. it was a life of service. and it was never cut corners. life would have afforded her the ability to cut corners because of all the discrimination she faced along the way she always had to be that much better. she always had to work that much harder. it was also that she never -- she didn't seek out the office in order for self-promotion or to draw the limelight. it was all about service, and so i think part and parcel with that is a very strong ethical and moral compass of trying
12:02 pm
always to do the right thing and try always to think outside of one's self in thes in the servie of others. >> let me turn to some questions because we've got a number of them. i would encourage everybody to keep sending your questions in. i'm going to combined with the question i had because i was surprised that your story about returning to work when you had a baby and you are nervous, and use holder, she wrote a letter about your hesitancy. i'm curious what you said in your letter and what she responded to your letter and the advice she gave. i want to that with the question which is this, what was the best professional advise that justice ginsburg gave you and the best personal advice? >> she gave me a lot over the years. one of the stories i would tell an answer to the question is of the story of going back to work. ii had my first child, my son,
12:03 pm
and then instead of going back to my regular law school i decided in that first semester go visit athing to harvard lawrs, i think that is a window into who she was phenomenal advice, this is back to what i was saying someone who
12:04 pm
had to go to law school as a toddler and the husband who was fighting cancer and someone who couldn't get a job because she was a woman in jewish and a mother, this is someone at her first job at a law professor was paid less than her peers, not with her male peers, to hide her second pregnancy to make sure she got her next contract and she wound up on the supreme court, where there's a will there's a way, i just wanted to tell that close to my heart, she gave a lot of advice over the years, i talked about a lot of things but what i would say the best response to the question is what she modeled for me, i'm sorry i'm twisting the question but she modeled for basic lessons that i turn out into helping my students, and they are really important so,
12:05 pm
for example, when he went on the teaching market she picked up the phone and called all of these law schools on my behalf. she didn't just way for people to call her. she got out in front of it and did what she could, as she did this for all of her law clerks. she was a champion for lifting at others, for promoting others. as i said other some lifting up other voices. i think about that a lot when i think about my role as aot professor of what i can do for my students. >> this is a great question. so good i wish i thought of it and i didn't. what did you think of her nickname, the notorious rbg? >> it's funny, i court further, there are two camps of law clerks in rbg palette. keep rbg. she had mugs made which said team rbg. i was in the that i'm a little older and there's the post
12:06 pm
notorious clerks. i'm good friends with one of the clerks from the year she became a notorious rbg. she said they had to explain to her who notorious b.i.g. was pictured no idea. >> not shocking. >> not surprising. once they did she really loved it. she thought -- she liked it were celebrating that she spoke her truth and she called out injustice where she saw it. that's why think the nickname originated from and that's whyat the law students who coined it did so. they loved her. shelby county dissent, they thought, i think this story the expression you can't spell truth without ruth. i can't say what she thought about all of that but what i observed is that she definitely come again it was never about her. was about the limelight. he was about not the ideae about the principles and what she cared about. what i think she embraced and
12:07 pm
loved about being the notorious rbg is a got people talking about things, and he got people talking about the work that was so important to her. and so for that reason i think she embraced a lot of it because i think back to when i interviewed her at berkeley and she did this on publications, when reset that in our chairs shedding coat back and s she mae a point of putting it so that if i five was facing the audiencent f that said i dissent. she did embrace it and i think again the lives because it got people talking about the work and about what mattered to her. the other thing i would say on this is when we were working on the book i visited her chambers and i look at the pictures she had around your office to get inspiration for what images we might include, and we have a lot of images and about that of not been published before. i notice it should several pictures of her with little girls dressed up like her. , lite
12:08 pm
learning about you can be a woman on the supreme court and in your 80s and speak your mind and you can call out injustice, that she really loved and i tried to make very few changes to the book after she passed away but i did include some images for when she came back and as the first woman in the first jewish person to be so honored and i also included my very favorite and it's of a little girl dressed up as a supergirl and she came to pay her respects to the justice and she's holding insulating, i loved that image a little girl who was inspired by her example and who i like to think is going to grow up and continue to work.
12:09 pm
>> justice ginsburg modeled so many people, do you know who were some of her role model. >> she talks about that a lot over the course of her life, that's a great question i love that question, i was going to ask that. >> is a been saying it was really important to her to honor the women who came before her and she went out of her way to try and share credit and that's another thing she modeled so beautifully, and the first brink that she's filed she listed as cocounsel, to incredible women lawyers who raise the trail for her, they have not actively worked on the case, it was researched by justice ginsburg wanted to give them credit and she wanted them to share the credit for getting out in front of the idea that the equal
12:10 pm
protection clause is that all persons are equal it's written in a general sense, that should mean men and women, she like to give credit so i think she would probably cite those two, and her senate testimony she talked about susan b anthony and harriet b tubman and how she help them out and said i stand on their shoulders and she called them these great people, she talks about how they had dreams of equality ahead of their time and they fought for and made easier for her, long as hard as this was in the 1970s in the orders work already so she was very quick to give credit to others. that is really special, another point on this when we were working on the book we included
12:11 pm
the opinion which is her only majority opinion in the book and it was an important opinion to her, she wanted me too make reference in the introduction to her book. to the fact that justice sandra day o'connor the first woman on the supreme court had been offered that opinion and said no justice ginsburg should have it, justice ginsburg wanted people to know that because she wanted people to know how special a person justice o'connor is and how grateful she was to her for that. >> this next question is kinda personal, if you don't want to answer it's okay, did justice ginsburg or marty give you and your husband any marriage advice? >> that's a great question, the answer is yes. >> can you share it. >> i will share it, first i will say the best thing that they did was model what a real partnership look like in both of
12:12 pm
us very much took that to heart and i'm very, very grateful for their example. that is the single most important thing i will say. then i will say she did share with me and her mother-in-law on her wedding day and she told publicly she talks about in her book and i called her and i said you have any advice and she said do i have advice, the best advice i ever received was from my mother-in-law that every good marriage it pays to be a little death every now and then, the justice that she tells a story, not only did her mother-in-law say this but the mother of the man that she is marrying put earplugs in the justices hand and later when the justice would tell the story publicly, she would follow that by saying, my advice has been really helpful with my colleagues as well.
12:13 pm
she did have a great sense of humor and great timing also. >> this is a question. >> did you injustice ginsburg ever discussed her first year being a supreme court justice was like? >> that's a good question, i was trying to think i don't remember have a a conversation about that but i do remember, she wrote more opinions that year than any other year so she was very active. i talked about her being a judge more generally and every member her saying she absolutely love being a judge and she loved being a judge on the d.c. circuit which was an appellate court below the supreme court and she was a judge there for 13 years before she went on the supreme court and she would say
12:14 pm
if i've never been put on the supreme court i would still love it, i love being a judge and it was really special role in going back to what i was saying earlier, i think a big part of that was about public service about being in the service of this country that she loves so deeply. >> the last question i'm going to ask you are about her past just to warn you, do you remember your last conversation with her. >> vividly i didn't think it would be the last one we were supposed to talk the week she passed away in the fact that the call kept getting put off, i started to worry that things are not going in the right direction. but we talked about the book and
12:15 pm
how the term was winding up and gone late last year because of the covid pandemic. >> i always tried to make the justice block, ion spent time before we talked trying to think of some funny stories. i'm gonna tell this because of the hope grounding the tell the rest of the story, among others a funny story that i prepared to tell her my kids i cannot get them to go to bed they want to stay up later and later and why is that, i don't know the plane video games or something, it is crazy, every time i yell at them, they yelled down assembling bonding, she just laughter head off and i was so pleased i was able to make a
12:16 pm
lot, she was struggling a little bit, a lot medically and then she asked, she asked how are they doing and what is the prognosis, are they going to be going back to school in person or are they going to be going back on computers. and she went on to talk and we talked about that and she conveyed that she was very worried about my kids more generally and she was really concerned about children all over the world who are being so deeply affected in so many ways, mostly not good by the pandemic and in the future. , i keep thinking back to that because i wrote this book and i don't know who she was but it
12:17 pm
was a special window into where her mind was at the end of her life because she was thinking about others and she was specifically thinking about kids in the future, the next generation and i think that is a window and how she looked ahead in the final days and it's a really special testament to who she was, she died september 18 and then curious i want to put words of what she thought of in the future, but i'm curious it's something she was clearly thinking about and shape the world wasn't at that moment and worried about kids and their place in the world that was very chaotic and not really secure at the moment, talk to me about her mindset at that point.
12:18 pm
>> i think it's a couple of different things, one i share that i knew and what i speculate. one i cannot decide at the top of her game right until the end, she was marking up drafts that i sent her for the book as extensively as she did 20 years earlier and it's a little embarrassing to admit that and in 20 years i couldn't turn around it's really embarrassing because some of that was happening when she was in the hospital with her she extraordinary assistance in bringing them to her imprinting out my e-mail and put it on top and for the pages of the book marked up, i'm horrified to
12:19 pm
announce this publicly but i think it's a window that she was going right up until the end and asking and sending more pages, even when she was in the hospital just like i was in that is so inspiring the incredible, and how the pandemic was affecting things and she was working on the book of we mentioned thinking about the bottle she had lost that she hoped people would keep waging on voting life, gender equality, race and is a hugely important issue to her and i think all of that was very much on her mind thinking about the future of our country, no one in the summer of 2020 was in the fall of 2020 was doing anything else, she's no different, i think she was troubled by what the pandemic had brought in really alarming
12:20 pm
and a trend of so many leaving the workforce, this is what she worked for all her life and support from both parents. i think if she read some of the stories that i read about women leaving the workforce and child-rearing, the flipside is if she had lived to see it she would've been a static deceive vice president harris ntsc of woman in the office, i think that would've made her so proud and i think i would've made her think back to the work in the effort of the one who came before her inert dreams, she
12:21 pm
like to talk about and she gave a speech at 2019 and for the future of this country, whenever she talked about this how much progress she'd seen in her life and anything about her 87 years, how much progress was accomplished and you can start to understand why she was optimistic and why she believed that we kept doing the work and we would get there. >> this is a great question if you could describe justice ginsburg in three words, what with those three words b. >> great question. resilient, service and hero.
12:22 pm
>> great. i love this last question because it brings us to an indian that is a very positive and forward-looking one and i don't love ending in death even though that is where the book ends, her story and legacy obviously does not in that way, professor tyler do you have advice for someone who is thinking about applying for law school? >> go for. >> in a word go for. >> a few more words, lawyers have the ability of her life well lived underscores to make a difference and i tell my students is constantly, echoing advice that she gave to me and countless others, use your talents to make the world a little better place for others in the tools of a law degree are
12:23 pm
really powerful tools, another thing i tell my students i love this quote doctor king use a true power lies in the ability to achieve purpose, to think about what he saying if you can set a goal and accomplish it, then you have power along degree is power because it gives a person who has a the tools to go into court, to go to the legislature to make arguments to lobby and rally people to affect change and her life is emblematic of just how massive the contribution you can make with a law degree at your disposal, so someone who is inspired by that who wants to make a contribution i say go for it. hopefully whoever wrote that i will have you in class. >> i think her life and her legacy has led a lot of people but maybe young women
12:24 pm
specifically to think about the impact that you could have on the world if you can have an impact on the court. >> i think that's very important, i will say is not just about going to court, i said this for years to my students and i think her life also verses out, when she was at the women's rights project and they were pushing for title ix in the pregnancy discrimination act where the courts failed to recognize pregnancy discrimination is gender discrimination and they pushed for the equal rights amendment and constitution to include an express language saying women are equal, it is not just about what you can do in court, it's also where can use your talents to promote the vision of the country that you want and this
12:25 pm
goes back to the final piece of that final speech, the final piece of the book where she says to the new citizens of this country, we the people includes you, and jeff to take ownership of your constitution, and you have to also do the work to build a more perfect union. >> a huge thank you to professor amanda tyler again. the book is called "justice, justice thou shalt pursue." you can see over her shoulder and also want to point out paving the way, which i know you committed to also promoting while you promote this book as i know it was important to the justice. we encourage all of you to please pick up a copy of justice ginsburg and professor tyler spoke at your local bookstore. if you want to watch more virtual programs or support the commonwealth club efforts, please visit i'm soledad o'brien. have a great night, everybody. >> thank you so much. it was my honor and pleasure. ♪ ♪
12:26 pm
♪ >> in a virtual event hosted by the competitive enterprise institute in washington, d.c. financial analyst explained why he thinks corporate america's been changed by progressive ideology. >> i have worked at the nexus of politics and financial markets for my entire professional career come for almost 25 years now. i have always known that the idea that wall street is owned by republicans and owned by conservatives is a myth. my own experiences in the financial services industry taught me that. but over the last several years it's been become more and more obvious to me that there's been a very significant push to the left from industry more generally. and in speaking with friends, clients, other people in the
12:27 pm
business, it became clear that they, too, saw this push to let and they were frustrated by it. roughly two years ago i had a conversation with justin down off who is the director of free enterprise project at the national center for public policy research, and justin shared with me to the work hs in fighting back against activist shareholders. it was a very interesting and enlightening discussion. as this that i work in the business for almost a quarter century, and i was not aware of just how thoroughly left-wing politics had invaded what was once upon a a time free and fr capital markets. and so i was very intrigued by the issue and very bothered by it. i share that information with my
12:28 pm
clients. i believe we've been put together a conference call with justin to share the information directly to our clients. a lot of them, and again these are sophisticated asset managers, people who've been in the business for a long time, and they were very surprised at how thoroughly left-wing politics has captured financial markets here so from that point on i made it my personal mission to expose this. at some point in this discussion i would imagine we will get around to the question, what do we do now? and the first part of the answer to the question is raised awareness. and that's been my job in this battle against the politicization of capital markets, is to raise awareness. and so that's what set me down the track and that's what pushed me to write the book. >> you can watch the rest of this program search for stephen soukup or the
12:29 pm
title of his book "the dictatorship of woke capital." using the search box at the top of the page. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> here are some programs to look out for today on booktv.
12:30 pm
fine full schedule information online at or consult your program guide. >> booktv continues now on c-span2, television for serious readers. >> good evening, everyone. i am louise mirrer, new york historical society president and ceo, and i'm thrilled to welcome you to do nights virtual program, the words that made us, america's constitutional conversation, 1760-1840. i am particularly grateful this evening for the support of j. d. realty for sponsoring the program tonight. i'm also delighted to welcome guests of lewis and je and to thank you for your great partnership. just before introduce our speakers i want to recognize and


info Stream Only

Uploaded by TV Archive on