tv In Depth Annette Gordon- Reed CSPAN July 4, 2021 1:59pm-4:01pm EDT
service. >> next book tvs monthly in-depth program of best-selling author harvard university professor and historian annette gordon read her books include the pulitzer prize in national book award of monticello and on juneteenth. host: annette gordon-reed on the 240 for the anniversary of 1776, are we the exceptional nation that we ought to tell herself that we are were here? >> we are certainly trying to be. host: in what way. guest: there is a number of people in society who are working to make the idea of the declaration a reality in the ideals about quality into the happiness, i think we have the
idea and were trying to reach that potential. host: with the founders recognize who we are today? guest: of course not. some aspects they would but most of it women in politics and blacks participating in politics, all of those kinds of things would've been foreign to them and the power of the united states. at the time that we are talking about 1776, this was a 13 colony when the middle of nowhere they don't have the power in their leaving an empire and we become tan empire. . . . seen all that would with happen to the united states up until this point. >> host: professor gordon-reed, have you weighed in on the 1776 versus 1619 debate that we're having in the country right now this. >> guest: not -- i mean, certain interviews and things like that, but i haven't written anything about it that i know of. i may have had a few stray
tweets, but no in depth essay at all about it. >> host: so what are your initial thoughts? >> guest: well, my thoughts are what i've said kind of before is that you need both of those things. i mean, 1619, that's what you're referring >> you need both of those, 6019th if that's what you're referring to talks about the beginning and slavery in the american, northno american colonies and set the context in 1776 is different because att te beginning of what we call the beginning of the country and these people are active within the context of 1619 and they were slavery in all 13 colonies. by 1776 introduces a new demeanor, that's what the people call it. . . . society in which a good number of people are slaves. so there is no pararah docks on the dilemma in 619.
the -- 1619. the english at that time are not saying things about all men are created equal or anything of that nature. it becomes an issue created equal anything of that nature it becomes an issue when the united statess breaks away on the basis of a document that proclaims this universal idea. cracks were that three fifths clause come from? quick they wanted to count totally surveyom would have better representation. this was a compromise between the northern states in the southern states that even at the beginning concerned about who is going to have power in the society. they comeer together as colonies but the regions were different in a lot c of ways. but the regions have their own ways of life and the
differences he didn't say enslaved people read it rather than those who don't. this is a way of compromising to allow who are used to being alone for them to come together in the union. >> this was not an easy process was it? >> no not at all. they were countries, states we think of states within the un union. but they saw themselves a different places jefferson talkedat about virginia he talked about his country that's what he meant. his country virginia because it had been a separate colony. it did not create a nation all at once or just took time, it created a a union and a difficult process as we know a lot of compromises to be made in compromises that were fateful s the differences that
come to ahead in the 1860s. >> one of those founders you have written three books about , thomas jefferson winter interest start with him? >> it started in elementary school. and at our classroom at the back of the classroom there is a separate library. but in the back ofss the classroom we had a library in it had the kinds of books you would expect for third graders. this is when i was in the third grade that had biographies of various american figures, dolley madison, booker t washington george blessed carver, george washington. i read a jefferson biography during that year, my third grade year. the book was supposed to be a somethingof him but that was told by a fictional enslaved boy that was supposed to be jefferson's companion. the book bothered me because
it pretrade the enslaved boy as silly and not wanting to learn sort of exasperated with jefferson because jefferson wanted to read and go to school, he enjoyed those things. and i knew as the same time as a black person was to send a message i thought about black people. at the same time sending a message about jefferson about intelligence than i thought of myself as intelligent and curious britain wanted to learn how to read i loved reading. i could not see why had to be pretrade that weight that was my introduction to jefferson. read other age-appropriate about monticello and a time to think about slavery as well. here is a person who wrote the declaration of independence to
do that. what is that about? so my interest started in school and u it continued up until now i guess. >> host: was your school segregated at that point had you been integrated? >> guest: integrated this particular school the schools of my home town condor, texas. by the time i got to the third grade things hade changed. there were more black kids in the school. i did not do it by myself at first. but then there were supreme court cases and so forth that required sort of an immediate integration of all the schools. they were more blacks at anderson which is where i was written my first biography about jefferson. the person who started that in
town. but without the police escorts. that is a police escort, my parents, the school district not the school newspaper, the town newspaper decided we would make a big deal about it. they wouldn't make a big deal about it i would just go and it would be nothing were unusual here. of course it was very unusual. need to look at me and the 25 or so white kids who were in the class with me to see how it was going. might have been a stress reaction to things. it's like anything, you grow up and i look back at that are
members of the bad stuff but i focus mainly on the overall feelings which is of excitement of being in school and learning things. that is with galvanized. i s had friends there some white kids who were not nice to me. and my second grade teacher those are my formative years were just fantastic, they were wonderful to me predated everything that could there were bumps as you can imagine. so when she's written three about thomas jefferson first met in 97, the hammons' of monticello and his most recent along with author's most blessed of the patriarchs.
why did he refer to himself as most blessed of the patriarch? >> guest: that's how he thought of himself or he was comparing himself to the patriarchs of old. he had a farm, he had enslaved people he had power, he had all these kinds of things. he was the patriarch of this particular area. and he saw himself that way. that is why i insisted not want people to be thinking we were calling him that. this was his identity. we look at this as a negative. that is why i did not want to be associated with calling him that. he saw himself the father who has control over daughters and
so forth i'm think this is a bit much. he sighed as here are all of the people i am responsible for that i am supposed to take carehi of. that by fixating on that phrase calls himself that a couple of times that meant something to him in the book is about trying to figure it with that actually was to try to impact that an see what it was that he meant by that. >> host: how long it would not about sally hemmings? people in the african-american community is an article of faith from the 19th century and referenced it. so the story came out in the 1790s and came with sally hemmings name in 18n oh two. the story about it has been in
the public sphere since the beginning of the 19th century. it was rediscovered in the 1950s when they found the regulation, the novelist who is also a jefferson person gets a new life, they did not talk about it explicitly in their book, but it gets a new life in the 70s when they wrote about it in her biography of thomas jefferson in that history. but the recollections in the back of her book. in 1873 he was the son of thomas j jefferson. that recollection in the public eye. it was about 14 years old a
narrative by a former enslaved person and it really interested me i knew slave owners that slaveholders and enslaved women's are children born of connection between these people, and other kind of connections, i knew that. but to have it talking about a person whom i have been interested in before see this on the story. soot how are the descendents of jefferson in heaven? they are very wide spread. i don't think his son had children, many but his daughters have lots of kids who are descended from
corresponded with a good number of them. been to a family reunion with them and including some people from jefferson's legal family. it was very widespread. we had lots of kids in those days in that generation it becomes exponential at some point. so there are lots of them. >> host: have they been officially recognized the hemmings side of the family? >> guest: i don't think so the monticello which is in his descendents i don't believe they. have. i'm almost certain they would have would have been news i would've heard something about it. i don't really know how many ofua them were seeking that recognition. because they had their family story and that is their family story. that is pretty much their attitude about it.
the c-span presidential historical survey this comes out to presidency written about extensively, thomas came in again he's consistently been at number seven. the other president you've written about, andrew johnson came in second to last, right above james buchanan. gu think those are pretty accurate ratings? so what i would say separate momentum about johnson came out and met with him the one year heay was listed was just above buchanan. i think that's just about right. he was not a good president. he was a terrible person to follow lincoln. the thing about buchanan and johnson, they have got lincoln there and it's a tough comparison.
and jefferson should be in the top ten. the feminist probably about right. >> host: why is that in your view? >> guest: probably because of louisiana. doubling the size of the country, something like that happened during his presidency. it was his doing. now that is a controversial thing because people think about what that meant for the extension of slavery and what it meant for indigenous people in that area. but it is the beginning of the united states, the continental united states and when i fill those surveys out, i do not think about necessarily how i feel about a particular action or particular president and their policy. i think about how the exercise power and what they did that were momentous that help change the country. i think certainly that was a
claim to fame for him. this first inaugural address was a successful term. the second one there was the embargo and all kinds of issues. but i think he deafly belongs in the top ten. and i suppose because of the declaration were talking about and speaking on, gets points for that as well. i would say louisiana and some of the things i did in the first term andde setting a tone this idea about the sovereign rulers the accolades, madison and monroe takes her place after him.
and even jackson he did not think very much of. he admired jefferson even though jefferson did not admire him. it wasso the influence of jefferson, there is an age of jefferson we think of it. and that's a part of his presidency. >> host: real asteroid the audrey johnson biography by the american president series or did you volunteer for? >> guest: i was asked to do it. there we were on the board of advisors, the papers of thomas jefferson out ofon princeton and we knew him from that. the other editor, paul gullett had been the editor on the book i did with vernon jordan. between the two of them asking me too do this i said sure. it was not something i would
ever have, out of the blue once i started doing it and looking into it is not pleasant person what should not be part of a consideration. he was president during a pivotal moment and made a fateful decision to put in place other fateful decisions. this is not attractive as a man, as a character. the role he played as president is a pivotal and people should know about it because of that. >> host: the only n southern senator not to leave the senate. >> guest: exactly that is white lincoln trade in his original when lincoln wanted to send a message.
we can get back together. i can have a southerner of tennessee but a southerner on my ticket a person who is loyal and we can go forward together with this. it was a disaster. >> host: the one thing i picked up in the biography you referred to johnson corky independent. >> guest: he came from nowhere essentially. he did not learn how to read until he was a late teenager. his wife apparently taught him he really did not accept limitations. he knew he came from a working-class background that he would've looked down upon
by the h grandees of society. he did not let himself be pampered by that. brought his way up to vice president and then he becomes president because of a tragedy. he had gripped other than his loyalty to the union was important. that is a key thing. i think his independent streak is great and his loyalty to the union i could pass it on to say there is something there. along with being in a pivotal role at a pivotal time in the country's history. so wonderful relieve andrew johnson i want to ask about
dolly. >> host: the slave girl. >> guest: we do not really know much aboutut her. there are people who claim from johnson through her, but there's not that much known. it's not like a hemmings story. because my book was basically about hisor presidency, the american president series not necessarily talk about the personal lives of the president. but the main thing is to talk about their policies in the workings of their presidency. i did not go off into detail and talking about enslaved people. >> host: annette gordon reed back to the presidential store insult survey by 2020 was put out by c-span. andrew jackson has been dropping steadily since 2011 when he was rated number 13 per he is down to number 22.
what is a say about history? >> guest: it says different people, generations respond to different public figures differently. it is a question is the thing where historians asked different questions how the people in the past in situations in the past based upon their preoccupation. we have been very, very much interestedhe in the question of indigenous people. the treatment of indigenous people. we were interested in the subject and race. jackson is an interesting figure because we think of the age of jackson the rise of american democracy. it was a rise of american democracy but it was what people refer to and i'm not making this up white man's governments. the idea that white men should rule. even in situations and places
were flecked with franchise were able to vote was taken away from him. you have the situation where there is an expansion of democracy lower classes are getting power they did not haveav before. but it isic a restriction, that is a problem what is that mean here? this lies in one area in the restriction on the other side. the native americans the indian removal, should have been a policy before jackson. but jackson's treatment of native americans is seen as a problem of putting that mildly. as you fixate and think about those issues more, he looked worse and he may have before. when people weren't thinking about race and were not
thinking about the fortunes of african americans under -- during this time. or if you are just sort of assuming there's only one way to handle the situation then he becomes a problematic figure. so people like arthur's lessons are and others loved him because of the spread of democracy. if you have this notion of progress sort of a historical progress that inevitably leading to better and better things you could say they're taking the franchise away from black people because eventually they would get it. as you know nothing is inevitable.he there is no and in evitable and we are working toward. but we still have to deal with, we cannot think about what happens after words. we have to think about what is happening in that particular moment.
that can't but what he think about the notion of a white man's governments. how do we deal with what they are doing at that particular time. not saying oh, it is okay because eventually it's going to be all right. it makes sense he will decline but who knows jefferson's fortunes have risen and fallen over the years. now he has been in a trough. it's not likely he's going to stay there. i think these things come and go generations are different and different things fixate on different things. who knows what we will be onto in the future. >> host: this survey sent out to about 100 historians atif nationwide. eight different criteria, by the way this is all available at c-span.org. we do it every four years after the end of one
president. in donald o trump is included for the first time on this list. this comes in fourth or the bottom 87 points from abraham lincoln, hundred 12 for donald trump. is it fair to judge somebody six months after the end of his administration? >> guest: as a store node say no that is current events is not really history. you want time to pass to have some perspective. some things that happened in the trump administration, the generate six insurrection people believed he was egging that on in some ways were was involved in that. i think their views about its extraordinary circumstance as you're filling out a survey to have come off of something like that so quickly a lot of the judgment comes from that.
so extraordinary events makes people. it sort of shapes the way people decided to do that survey,an the way they answered it. i think that is one of the reasons for their other things as well the handling of the pandemic, i don't know that that is a a problem. you guys ask questions and so they responded on the basis of what i said before some pretty extraordinary circumstances. but ideally you want time to pass because you do not really know what the effects of presidential actions will be. and so those judgments i think are less sound than judgments made about people further in the past byis historians is my view of it. it may be different if you are thinking about the effectiveness of particular actions in contemporary times.
but the historians did more time. soup on june 19, 1865 quote the people of texas are informed that in accordance with the proclamation from the executive of the united states, all slaves are free. this involves absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves, and the connection hereto for existing between them becomes that between employer and hired labor. the freed men are advised to remain quietly at the present homes and work for wages. they are informed they will not bet able to collect at military posts and they will not be supported in idleness either there or elsewhere. what is that? servitude general order number three.er he issues when he comes to galveston in 1865, june 1865
to take control of that area after the final surrender of the confederate army. so he issues this order that is the date we a have come to know as juneteenth. recently became a federal holiday. >> host: but the civil war ended in april. >> guest: lee surrendered in april and the army of mississippi kept fighting. and it was in texas near brownsville which the confederates worn, but decided the effort was for not. and they surrendered that is when granger goes into take control of texas. with his troops obviously. >> host: as a texas native, did you grow up knowing about this juneteenth? >> guest: yes, i did know the detailsra of granger those kind of things but guess i did grow up celebrant juneteenth.
i've had the occasion people asked when i first but i do not remember time and we were not celebrating, mainly by the african american community. frankly it became a texas state holiday in 1980. before then i sought as the black community this is when the slaves were freed that is what i said as a kid. and we barbecued, had soda water and dead firecrackers. they were little kids below the age of ten with firecrackers and matches and sparklers and those kind of things but that is what i remember about the day.
>> host: one of the term juneteenth come from? >> guest: mostly people say it's just a mashup of 19th he just take out. and other people said that some people celebrated over a three-day period. and they were not sure about the date, weathers the 18th, 19, 20th. : : : that because the journal is written and it was announced. there's a story of it being tacked on the door of an african e discocopal church in galveston, s >> in the church in galveston, people knew what day w it was ad i think the best answer 19 college and teeth. >> you are just him the white house for their for the
ceremony, i was stunned by the equivalence of which was also placed him i was very confident it was when you become a federal holiday but i thought a minute later i got a the text and e-mail invitation to come down to the white house for the ceremony, i quickly hopped on a plane and i made in time for the ceremony. host: in your most recent book you write there is just so much to misunderstand about or even awareness of the states foundational aspect, what does that mean. >> people think of texas and i certainly have this in the north, just from reading people think of texas as a land of
cowboys, our type of person, texas is constructed as a white man a cowboy, cattle richmond not many cowboys are black. the representation of them in the giant probably exemplifies what people think about texas and once there was a place of cattleman and they had their way of life and in the oil people came in and challenge the cowboys and all of a sudden they come together make a new texas but they leave out the part
about plantation owners in east texas, a place where the father of texas doesn't bring people to texas to become cattle ranchers. he brings people to texas with the expectation that they're going to bring and slay people in slaveryry be protected in tes would take its place as the cotton empire. the foundational aspects of texas are the things we don't like about very much and it may display society and what's clear that that was the intention when the texans break away from mexico which had declared slavery illegal even though they give texas an exemption the text and whenever secure about that that was one of the reasons they decided to leave mexico and when they do they set up a constitution that has provisions that expressed to protect slavery which prevent african-americans people of african descent from immigrating there without permission saying they can never become citizens,
not think about texas as a slave society and been a slave society i think sometimes from the questions that i get people are confused about certain things that they hear coming out of texas because they think talking about race, what is this, what is the problem, this is a place full of cowboys or this is a white state is not a state of african-americans or of people who had anything to do with what wef think of as old south peope live in georgia mississippi and places like that as a slave society but not so much texas when actually was. the purpose of the book was it's not all about the west the west is important i can't downplay that the east texas where i grew up and where my ancestors were brought, and a couple of cases
in georgia and from mississippi slave society and the state is still dealing with all of that today. host: have you been able to trace back your family? guest: not thoroughly i place my family on my mother side in texas to at least the 1820s, onu my father's side from the 1860s maybe before then, i have deep-rooted texas in my family a leader on my mother side -- my father's side did not join the black south and came from texas mainly from california they went west but there was other places as well my familytf stayed there on the anomaly and having left texas to go to school new
hampshire and to live outside of texas, most of my family is in texas where they went to houston and dallass or san antonio, they did not come to new york and they did not go to l.a., the roots go deep and most of my family is still there. host: back to your book on juneteenth page 101 covid-19 67 there was a rerelease of the 1960 film the alamo high was taken to see it with my best friend, can you tell us a story. >> it was an exciting thing and a big deal to go to the movies in those days and in houston to see movies, it's a little town outside of houston 35 miles north of houston and there was a time between the two places now houston is reached out and
approached upon all of us in that area. it was an exciting thing a treat to go see this movie about people that we already knew about, jim, travis, these were names that were known to us and my friend who is a boy, my best friend who is a boy really was into those characters, i know who they were and i thought jim was a semi-godlike person and he had the special powers and it was just a knife and he didn't realize any got into knifeni fights and it became famous because of that and we go to see this film it was very heroic trail of the alamo as you would expect and there was nothing in there that surprised me there
was things that made me uncomfortable they had a character, a slave and was pretrade, in a way that made me uncomfortable, for the most part it was heroic presentation of a bottle of text and to make the last glorious stand against the mexicans. later on when i was a teenager in my teenage years, maybe when i was in college and i knew more about all of this and came to understand that the text and had reasons to fight for their independence but as i mentioned before one of them was to protect the slaveholders and protect texas and make it a slaveholders republic. however, my supposed to deal with this because i'm african-american, my ancestors
were enslaved in texas, how do d have or keep this heroicf understanding about the alamo when i realized one of the things were fighting for is to keep my people in bondage, as a little kid i enjoyed the movie except for the part of the enslaved person i thought it fell into the arousing nature and had a nice theme song and lawrence harvey was really cute but later on i began to see the problems and in the book i talk a little bit about that how is there a way to reconcile this and how can you possibly doo that.om host: good afternoon and welcome to book tv on c-span2, independence day 2021, this is our monthly program, in-depth where we invite one author to
come on and talk about his or her book, this month it isofin harvard professor who was a prize-winning author annette gordon-reed, she began her writing career in 1997, thomas jefferson and sally hemmings in america controversy came out that year the hemmings is a monticello and american family came on 2008 that when the poulter in the national book award, andrew johnson the biography came out h in 2010 mot blessed of the patriarchs thomas jefferson and imagination with peter came out in 2016 on juneteenth came out this year annette gordon-reed has co-authored a book the late vernon jordan which came on 2001 and she is edited race on trial, law and justice of american rohistory. this is an interactive program
your voice is important to o2 is area code 748-8200 if you live in the eastern central time zone 748-8201 and the mountain pacific time zone, you can also send in a text that is easier if you do include your first name and your city and this is for text messages only (202)748-8903. you can also contact us via social media, facebook, twitter, just remember @booktv is our twitter handle, you can find all those make a comment to we will scroll through those numbers again in case you didn't get a chance to write them down or hear them we will give you another chance to do that. annette gordon-reed it was in 2008 that you won the national book award i happened to be there at that time at the
presentation that night i remember you walked by me and you look stunned at what was happening when one a that night but we want to play a little bit of your acceptance speech. >> i have to think first two people who are not here my mother and father betty jean gordon who is response book everything that and that is good and gave me a sense of how important learning was and quite frankly to be personal about it this is the journey that black people in this country are on and that's what i've been trying to do in my scholarship in this book, they have gone on and i hope there looking at me and i know they would be very proud at this moment. host: annette gordon-reed, who were your parents. >> i father was offered gordon senior and my mother was betty
jean gordon and they were texans, as i mentioned before they grew up in texas and segregated society my father went into the army as an 18-year-old after he graduated from high school to help his sisters rather than go to school and help his younger sisters my mother died when he was 11 and his he was a career army person for some time and that he came out and had a series of businesses when i was growing up. my mother was a high school english teacher she went to college in tsu to graduate school and they got married and they known each other in livingston my mother had gone away to live in different times but came back and in some way
had been childhood sweethearts but they got married and when i was six months old i was born in livingston and they moved to texas and that's the time that i write about on juneteenth. host: you said your mother was a high school teacher, you write the effects of immigration on schoolchildren, black and white has received a great amount of attention over the years, what has been much less considered is the fact that integration had on black teachers. >> yes and talking in the book about thee, fact my parents i believe idealistic when they sent me too anderson school this is the mid 60s and black people were on the move with the civil rights act and the voting rights act and i think they sent me too integrate the school as part of an advance in civil rights. later on when they became a
delusion to some degree about the way integration played itself out across the south in general because my parents were veryry political people we talkd about politics a lot and they were surveying the scene not just in my tomball over the south it became an allusion because there was integration but it seemed to be black joining white but why didn't have to change anything in a way it was integration of the kids but not the teachers. across the south in my town andd across the south many black teachers were taken out of the classroom. to factor integration. my mother remained in the classroom and shehe loved teachg and she stayed there but i think there was a bit of disappointment about that fact because she said to me she had gone to college to teach black
students, she loved her white students and she loved her black students one of the great things about this book i heard from first former students how much he meant to them as a teacher, white and black people, she was a part of the generation that found themselves that they were the phrase that people would use ine those days, they were there to teach and prepare black students for what they would face in a segregated society. in moving that society how to maneuver to try to end it in the most thing for black people and there was integration and teachers would move from the classroom, she gained a number of friends when she went to the kano high school and they were wonderful friendships and they grew out of that but it's very different from what she had
known as as part of group of black men and women who had a premonition for these people who were imperiled in some sort i of way, the wife didn't really work that way in a society that had been made for them and she didn't have to exhort them to anything i remember their individual potential and she did but there was no notion that you're a group of people that have things to do we had been on the jury j since 1865 june 19, 1865 and even before them, so, i think she became just a little disillusioned about this and the terms upon which integration was carried out. host: why did youeg get a law degree from harvard have you ever practiced as a lawyer? guest: that's a long story, i got a law degree because a couple of reasons i think my
experience integrating the rules of our town gave me an early look at law because it understood that this was something that had been made by the courts and lawyers were in the courts injustices we presumably people who had gone to law school to be lawyers. part of this i wanted to be a writer for most of my life for all of my life really but i thought law in a practical thing for me too do. and it made me focus on law and perhaps my father admired lawyers and i think he would have if he had the opportunity
of where he was growing up he would've been i a lawyer so i think it was probably to please my father, that was part of it and when i went to harvard it was because it was harvard and i knew lots of people who were able to do things and government officials, harvard is a place that prizes a public service and a lot of my colleagues and people who went back between government and academia, i practice three years at the wall street law firm then i was counseled to a small city agency called the board of corrections which is the oversight agency to the department of correction, the agency that went into jails and my job was to write minimum standards for the jail and to
make sure the standards were followed, a lot of prisoners rights organizations but it's like a tiny agency that had a huge mandate and no money to carried out so we did the best d we could do. i practiced for about seven years either in private practice or in government practice as well in the city in new york. host: your known as a historian and history professor, did you meet a new york supreme court justice at harvard law school. >> i did robert reed my husband we met at the blackwell student association picnic the first week and we were in the same dorm we were in the same section harvard is a big law school your first year section is divided up into four sections and he was in
my section illegal method section, everything was pushing up to be together and we used to sit in the lobby of our dorm and watch as ctv and other tv shows after we spin it until finished studying and we got married in my second year and then we got married the day after graduation at harvard methodist church right there on the harvard law school campus. >> he is a justice of the new york supreme court. will you be teaching in the fall of harvard and what will you be teaching. >> i will be back in a year and will be getting back into things and i'm very excited about that. will be teaching a break in history in the fall and sharing
the hiring committee again so i will have that class but it will be one class in the fall and then in the springtime i will teach a class with peter constitution law empire and i will be teaching legal profession in the spring. host: peter is the co-author on the patriot book, i've taken enough of your time, let's hear from our callers, jim and caliente california you are first up with annette gordon-reed. >> thank you very much for taking my call and professor rita been very fascinated listening to you it's been wonderful. my question is about sally him maintenance and thomas jefferson, what we know about the relationship obviously he owned her, was there love their, she was handy in many women who
would've been more than happy to be his companion, i understand he promised his wife he would not remarry. but what do we know about the interpersonal as much as we can about that. guest: we don't know anything specific about the nature of the collection of people who say you mentioned he owned her, sally hemmings grandchildren a couplen great-grandchildren and trying to get the purse twice number right they talked about how jefferson what he said about her and that he loved her and mr. jefferson loved her dearly and they don't talk about how she felt about him and once she comes back to the united states
this is something that started when they were in france were sally hemmings and her brother james could've taken their freedom there and at first she think about doing that but jefferson promises her if she comes back to the story that they tell when jefferson promises when they come back to the united states she would have a good life and they would be safer there 21. she comes back with him, she could come back because obviously she trusted him to carry that out but she 16 and is not what we think of today but there still people who are young and questionable but we don't know anything much about it but most of i have sent as i think
about his power, it strikes me as unlikely that he would maintain a purely sexual interest in 38 years, that is not that wouldn't be the first of the have in your mind about the way people act in the circumstances but we don't know and we don't have his words about her we just have a great-granddaughter. when i mentioned the hemming to the monticello that when he dies she keeps items from him that belong to him and gives them to her children as an heirloom, i don't know what that means but i mention it because the only
action that we know besides coming back that we know about her relationship this is a mystery and something people that best plumbed in novels as it has been barbara did a novel about sally hemmings in 1978. but as far as historians unless we find material we will not know much more about it than that.>> host: roy and brian texas, good afternoon. caller: hello i was planning to ask another question but i had heard sally hemmings was a half-sister of jefferson in the my question. host: go ahead and ask your second question.
caller: my hometown is your hometown, iro am 84 i discovered most got racism bios moses and i discovered a beautiful black woman when i was 19 or 20 it was a big shock to me that that was even possible, my first big example of racism and i've been working to get rid of it written my prejudice ever since, and activists of the 60s in my seminary and bolster king, here's my question it was always a rumor that a black man was burned on the courthouse steps in 32, do you know anything about that. host: in conroe texas. caller: there was violent
racism. host: let's hear from annette gordon-reed sally hemmings half-sister and his implicit racism and the courthouse. host: sally hemmings was the daughter of john wales and the daughter and father of mott hunter martha wales jefferson, sally hemmings was jefferson's wife half-sister, that is the case, his implicit bias is understandable if you grew up in that place it was a town that has a very tough racial history and there was a man burned at the courthouse steps, it was reported in the newspaper and it was a person that was accused of doingg something to wipe woman and found a white girl in the
woods and was lynched essentially, i talked about this in the book there is instances of racial violence in the town that made the places some of my relatives would not even spend the night in congo because of its racial path unsurpassed. this can be told about other towns and i'm not making any excuse for my hometown but the story could be told inhe other places. . . . ake is mid-evil and this is something happening in the 20th century as taking place, yes had a very, very tough history. host: lisa and cicero indiana, hi lisa. caller: ms. rita i'm so impressed with your entire presentation and kudos to you
picking up a law degree, very much needed as a result of what you witnessed in your lifetime and my question as a successful black single-parent, i became victimized by i became victimized by predators, after 17 years of almost paying for my home. which has led me too be homeless.av i have a healthy history of productivity. my question to you, i know this is a world wide scam i thought i was alone at first. but the agencies i am going to for help, since the judge ruled my attorney misrepresented me and awarded forgers to take my home, forging my signature let them get away with that. what i'm apologies were getting a little off topic what exactly did you want to
ask? >> caller: because of her experience, wondering if she couldo guide me to the proper agencycy or resource? so what i think we've got the point to have any words for her? >> guest: no other than him sorry for your situation but there has to be a legal aid clinics and lawyers even the bar association in your area that you could connect to peoplehood be able to help in w that situation. if what you're saying is true, that sounds like a miscarriage of justice. i would contact a lawyer is the best answer i could give. >> host: margaret in fayetteville arkansas please go ahead for historian. >> caller: thank you so much for being on the program. thank you so much for having professor gordon read. i strongly believe that the desire to protect the institution of slavery is one
of the reasons we have the declaration of independence. and just trying to read more deeply into what really happened in our history, i have come to believe that. so today, on the fourth of july i have really mixed feelings i tried to digest what this means at the beginning of our country this tremendous desire to protect the slaveholders and the institution of slavery, i am bothered by that so much. how should i regard this? i was influenced about learning about the james somerset case. and other things the 1770s what was happening here in
north america. >> host: right margaret think we've got the point. >> guest: there were people who wanted to protect slavery in 1776. i think looking at the constitution and the ratification of the constitution lays this out much more clearly. you see south carolina and the southern states who are adamant about coming to an arrangement that would protect the institution of slavery. the american revolution really get started in boston, get started in newew england. there are certainly people who were interested in protecting slavery. i think they wanted to, they basically were trying at first to get a change in the situation in great britain. great britain was not just picking on the 13 colonies it
was in the process of reforming the empire in general. not just in the united states but in the caribbean and other places. it was american colonists weree the ones who said we want to go. the people in the caribbean's don't do it then got slavery down there but they also have a majority of black people in the caribbean. that could be a reason why they did not want to go out. but there were mixed motives. i don't think it was just about slavery. certainly not about somerset freight somerset didn't apply. it basically says slavery is so odious you have to have positive loss in order to justify it. the colonies have positive loss. they were not doing this on the basis of common law the actually pastor statutes, their code. jefferson does not talk about, and doesn't enter into any of his papers for they are not sitting around worrying that particular case.
but there were people who wanted to protect slavery for there also patriots who were complaining about all the changes that the british empire was trying to putin in place. nasa 13 collins with the empire over all. that a change in law history? >> guest: absolutely. >> host: we have a text from scott in arkansas what is your interpretation of the current political acrimony over critical race theory? as somebody who has used many different varieties of critical theory from feminist theory to queer theory i'm shocked us analytical lynch became political red meat to theti base. so to its perplexing critical race theory was something that
one of my classmates, emily crenshaw were classmates together in the same section with my husband as ay matter fact. the late derek bell was a harvard professor that eventually went to nyu, they started this they were the proponents of it. this is a law school class. these things are taught in law school. it's not taught in all law schools it is about embedded in the system bring criticalca raceor theory on pack that. i think what people have done is made any talk about race, critical race theory.
they all talk about race. but not all people talk about race are critical race theorists. and i think most of the people talking about race to thebo extent that they are, and they are when they talk about slavery and so on a k-12, i'm doing theory with a seven year old, eight and nine. i'm not beingt disingenuous. i don't think that's what's going on. i think there is a concern talking about topics from what iro have read makes white students feel bad. so if you are talking about slavery and they note the vast majority of slaveholders were white in the united states africans had slaves to and people they captured, were talking about americans andam their relationships we have to one another as citizens and we
have had since the time north america 1776 and want to say that. but to say you cannot talk about this things because it will make white students feel bad, it means you can't talk about history. they are not responsible. no one should be teaching them that they did these things. but you have to be able to send the stuff happened. how do you talk about say for example without reading the constitution question rick if c he read the constitution is going to talk about race. and there'll be white kids who might feel, how did my great, great grandfather they were texans, how did they respond to this? they responded by saying yes it was great. black people should be slaves or black people can't be citizens here. but i feel bad about it. let's part of life.
have the opportunity to learn they want to do different things do not fill hostage to all of that. it's a bit off your question here is a real concern about airing these stories and people do not want to admit things have happened to african-american people that were unfair, that were not right. and things have happened to other people that are unfair but i'm not saying we shouldn't talk about that either. i am as surprised by it as you are. i have a feeling there will be pushback against this legislation. some of it is probably going
to be declared unconstitutional. teachers are a pretty maverick bunch britt my mother and her friends are in a the example. they will find a way to talk about the truth. and as long as they are telling the truth it is the truth there was slavery it is a truth there were jim crow laws. when i wassru a kid i went to te movies we had to sit in the balcony. but which of the doctor's office there is a separate waitinghe room. there were people alive who this actually happened there's no point to hide from it people are ashamed of it that is a good response because when you say were not going to do this anymore, we are not held hostage to a people did in the past. we want to do something better we want to be better. whatr. you're watching tv on cspan2 monthly in-depth program, one author two hours. this month at harvardli professor pulitzer
prize-winning historian annette gordon reed. >> from san diego sends an e-mail to you, professor, the one time we visited in texas we notice the texas state flag is flown on staffs above the american flag. is there a mythology among texans about the state's history that looms larger than regional attachments and other states? >> guest: i would say so. this is an interesting thing. when i was growing up i recall seeing the confederate flag but what i learned was the confederate battle flag actually only occasionally print the last time i was in texas, not the very last time but in the past few years i was in texas and i was going around the country writing around and visiting. i saw more confederate flags p on that trip and probably i have seen in my entire
childhood, growing up in texas. something has happened with the confederate identity means something different now because it's attached to current political things, maybe that is what it is. certainly when i was growing up it was all about texas. united states, yeah that's great. but the loyalty was on texas as a state. the chauvinism about texas as a state you see if white texans and black texans. some but he was asking me the other day, a person from another state who told me they celebrate emancipation day on a different day, january 1. and there are people in virginia who do something in april. they said why is it, how did texas manage to have their day of celebrating emancipation
become a federalat holiday? and it is because of the tenacity and theen chauvinism of a black texans who kept celebrating this holiday from 1866 up until today. i know and they left texas they would go to other states unsay there is this holiday that we celebrate and you should celebrate too. i don't know south carolinians placeser people go insist that people celebrate holidays that they celebrated back in south carolina, florida, or other places. this mythology about texas there is no question when i was growing up of arrays to think that we were special people. because we were from texas. and i think many t black people took that seriously and many white people taken that seriously. i do not think it is any coincidence that we end up with the juneteenth as a
holiday because black texans keep this alive and were very consistent this meant something. and i think it does obviously i think it does mean something to the country as a whole. my hope is juneteenth will be an umbrella holiday for the celebrations for emancipation and other places as well. i think you are right, there is a texas chauvinism that shows itself prettyse clearly. we went to san francisco you're on with author annette gordon reed thank you for holding. >> caller: think you think it is a great program. doctor reed you are in american treasure that is all i have to say. you mentioned earlier you're surprised at the passage of juneteenth as a federal holiday. i wanted to know, do you think this was may be a to appease black people to may be kind of quiet the narrative about
reparations or the asian hate crime bill that was passed unanimously and very quickly? i just want to know what to think about that? i hear that on social media a lot. sue and arent linda thank you. speech of people think that that's a very naïve thought. themp passage of a federal holiday is important, juneteenth is important, we live by symbols, but voting rights, those kind of things hate crimes all those things are existential questions.ug people might have thought that that would've been a very honaïve thought. i just can't see anyway and evasively have juneteenth that we don't have to vote, no.
but i'm not going to underestimate what people's sense of how they can get over on other people. but that ishe not going to work. if that is the hope it is a naïve hope. i think the juneteenth holiday, almost became a holiday last year. i guess there was one senator who had been blocking it and this time he decided to let it go. when i said i was surprised i thought it might become a federal holiday i thought it would be later in the year. i was just taken a fact owes going along only virtual book tour and then tuesday the house voted on wednesday the senate voted. i thought the president was overseas and he was but he came back and did this. i think the surprise t the speed going along think oneay day this might become a federal holiday and i'm thinking later in the year. and then juster like that that comes to fruition in a blink of an eye.
so it is b serendipitous your book came out right before that too. >> guest: yes what is working on the book during the pandemic in the city i knew the holiday thing was out there. but that certainly is not a primary motivation for writing the book or thinking i could influence that in any way. but it was good timing. see what jackie in gary indiana texts into you can you talk about how your jefferson hemmings research has received more acceptance since its first publication and why the writing of history has to be tested and rewritten? >> guest: my first book came out in 1997 about thomas jefferson and sally hemming. it was about historian profession. and the weight certain people were writing about jefferson primarily handled this particular story that was my
real interest i was not interested proving this one way or another but one thing i did know was that historians had been treating the recollection of other people in an unfair way. that is what my first book was really about. came out in 1998 cooperated what i was saying so that led to general acceptance of the story. and then most people would want tong talk about other things, about the gender aspects of it, other acts of slavery at monticello and the changes taking place at that site and the handling of talking about a slavery. so people reach out to other kinds of things.
but something i said before, people talk about history this is a provision of history. but all historians, good historians are revising things further not towing the same story over and over again like you read to your kids at night and if you skip a line is like no way to minute go back to that part, they recognize that. they are thinking something different that historians are doing tuber consul and find new information and also be asked different questions about things. if you're writing about the eprepublic of texas and if you do not care about a question of race, for many years people would have written about that and not fixated on the provisions in the constitution that explicitly promote
slavery for the provision that african-americans can't immigrate there. and they can't d be citizens. if you don't care about this topic and for most of history people writing about the texas republic would not dwell on that. they would not think about it. i am to a think of any graduate student in last 20 or 30 years, more than that maybe i wanted to write about the republic of texas that would not pause over those things. because they understand those provisions shape society. you can't just say black people don't count. or it doesn't matter were only going to talk about the things that deal with whites. those words are in the document. in this generation of people would pay attention to that.
now may be in the future there may be some other things the pendulum may swing back on people won't be interested inn that. it's constantly evolving the writing of history is constantly revolving as i said, find new information and begin to ask different questions. very often those questions grow out of thehe things taking place today. you think to ask that what does it mean to say people can't be citizens? how does that shape a culture? what would it be like even after slavery is over, how do you get rid of that racial hierarchy that is put in place by those words? does that explain the lynching? burning somebody on the courthouse square in the 20th century or other kinds of
lynching. you see the connection between things that are happening today if you are expansive in your understanding about the past. we are constantly looking for those things that help you explain the foundation of a society. that's why history has to keep changing. >> host: we have about 30 minutes left in our conversation if you like to into zero two is the area code, 748-8200 for those of you in the east and central time zones. 2-027-488-2001 if you live in the mountain pacific time zones and if you want to send a text to 027-48-8903. please enclosure first name and your city if you do send that text. and our next call isex from robin and oak ridge, maryland high robin. >> caller: hello doctor gordon reed. whitey think the leaders of
they confederacy not take more seriously the economic failure of the republic of texas as a place with essentially constant as a crop, one crop economy. and also some nations overseas who were reluctant to trade because they were so explicit slave holders. united states constitution tries toth hide slavery but the texas constitution is explicit about all of this. people are stubborn. and they were also, the plan as indicates there are always people who wanted texas to become a part of the united states. the plan was to leave mexico and hope for annexation by the united states and eventually statehood.
people who thought this was going to become a part of the united states some of their problems would even out there get protection from mexico they would join a larger economy and they would go forward as part of the united states of america. for lots of people that was the plan all along. so the failures of the republic may not have been surprising to them because they wanted something the ultimate goal was something else. and that would be statehood. we went roberta was calling in from houston, texas hi roberta. the future here in texas i have twoe points to make doctor gordon reed. ,one, you kind of evaded the issue but critical race theory is going to be coming up this month in the state legislature.
and they want to forbid it. i think that you should put on your armor and come to austin and speak about the issue. here would be the stumbling block and you kind of glossed over it which i hope you give more thought to, as a retired history teacher ever problem two, when is it age-appropriate to bring up the issues, the true history. we have a book that states forget the alamo come up with the true history. you keep mentioning the state constitution and this constitution and that. that is much too high a level for gradeschool kids to be reading. so i wish she would give more thought. i do not want you to set now, i do think that's going to be a crucial question that someone from the republicans here in the state would want to hear from you..
sue went alright reverter i think we got the point, not gordon reed. seventy-two okay, when is it age-appropriate to talk about race and history? myla is a writer who wrote a book about jefferson a biography of jefferson for people y who are five -- seven years old. and she talks about slavery. and she talks about sally hemming. she does this in a way that is brilliant and is completely age-appropriate. i don't see why you couldn't talk about for raise the question about the texas republic and younger grades. i don't think there ishe a problem. not reading the constitution but there are ways to write anything.
i have seen a really books for young people,nd for kids the book i'm talking about now certainly through elementary school, middle school,l, natalie boger has sent a wonderful youth biography of thomas jefferson talks about all of thisff stuff. it's in an a age-appropriate wa. i think there is a way to do it. as for coming down there to about all this, i think there are plenty of people in texas who can hold down the fort on that matter. i do know that people of gotten very, very aggressive about this. this is for the citizens of texas to stand up against censorship. sent up against the idea you can't talk about thehe truth. i am of a mind kids are more understanding than we think theyid are. i've seen some examples of writing about these issues
about race and slavery i think it's not the case that you can't -- if they are not ways to bring these subjects in a sensitive and reasonable way for young kids. sue and another text for you know city or name, is renaming a school from jefferson middle school, like so many in the u.s., to jeffersons -- hemmings middle school a solutionon that prompts the conversation rather than ripping away history? do i do not see any reason about the jefferson hemmings. we named schools after people because of their connection, i'm sure either a particular community or for their contribution to the nation. that is why you name a school after jefferson. i do not see any purpose i
don't see the jefferson hemmings school solve the problem solve the issue with that. i do not have a problem with a jefferson school so long as people talk about all aspects of jefferson's life. he is a person who had such an effect on so many aspectsd of american history that it is kind of hard to move in a way. i am four, in that situation if you are named that to keep that name if you want. on the other hand, jefferson himself said the earth belongs to living in every generation of people has a right to pick its heroes. and if you remain for today is doing something you think that represents your generation represents your place better he would probably say and i
would say as well to do that. it would not be as imperative that de- naming of the school. jefferson hemmings, i would not be opposed to it. but i don't think it solves the problem there are things people are concerned about with jefferson and the slaveholders. kate is filling up and that her thoughts on the removal of statues of prominent confederates. i've been on the record to say do not see any reason why this should be statues of confederates in public places in america. not just a racial question, people who fought against the united states of american who tried to destroy the united states of america battlefields, we are coming up onat gettysburg on everyone's mind at this point, and that's
berg two is a matter fact battlefield is one thing, but on public squares, it's an insult to union soldiers we talk about reconciliation we cannot make that choice for the people who were killed and died during that war. the values of the confederacy which are announced in its constitution and the cornerstone speech against the vice president africans were meant to be enslaved that is the cornerstone without all of the baggage that is there.
confederates all have a problem with the removal of the statues. will continue to learn about this buildings that are named in history books and what happens there secession from the union and the attempt to the destruction of the united statesst of america will talk of thosee kind of things. that does not have to be the statues ob from removing those from public spaces private properties, cemeteries, battlefields that istt i differ. so when does it surprise you right across the river the highly existed until about a year u ago? doesn't surprise me it's an attempt to reconcile a country
that a been torn apart. but going too far. going too far with that. and not thinking about the feelings and the sensibilities of one part of the citizenry that is to say african americans who have been enslaved in the confederacy and unionist, white people in the north andnd the south who remain loyal to the american nation which we talked about johnson that was a good point he believed in the american union. suet back to sacramento's text had a follow-up question, who stis your next planned book subject and might i suggest clara barton or lucy stone, both outspoken abolitionists. >> guest: well i have come a couple i've had to interrupt to do jim pink i ended up pushing aside for the moment.
i'm doingof a second volume of the hemmings family story. i am taking them from charlottesville after jefferson died in 1826 vicksburg figures in that. and dropping them off at the beginning of the 20th century the first couple decades of the 20th century the great war. because things change after that. world war i, modern world began they were a part of. they were not a coherent subject matter to me anymore after that. maybe mention some people who continue on. the hemmings family i have been preparing for a while i
basically collected all of his writing significant writing on race. as such is the state of virginia looking at his farm book, looking at his memorandum book, his letters to call out every -- all of his discussions and comments about race. i do a commentary about these kinds of things. in my editor has been after me for a while to do a book about texas a big book about texas. this will take a career for me too do all three of these things. those are the next things down the pike. >> host: john is in laurel, new york. john yoo are on the air. he john before we begin, it turned on volume on your tv. otherwise we get an echo, all
right? >> caller: yes. sue and john is gone let's try evelyn in philadelphia. evelyn you're on the air please go ahead. >> caller: hello? >> host: hi evelyn. >> caller: yes i have a question i want to make two comments. my husband james and i have been doing genealogy research all of our life. and my husband his grandfather skill by that union troops for stealing and that made national attention and found some articles in n the "new york times". my concern is looking at the fact that, we are both in our 80s have a story to tell her we tell every chance we get what i found through dna testing that my father was married the second time and then the third time. he was in pittsburgh and got
involved with the convict leasing system but my those born 1894. he was jailed. he was jailed for three months and worked in the coal mines. i have been doing that my research on this. they talk aboutys the 13th amendment and how that abolished slavery and it did not. and treated worse than the slavery could you speak on that in terms of why do we always say could you respond to that please i appreciate it. i'm sitting here right now with juneteenth. that that many pages and i thank you for that. so it evelyn could you tell us
a liberal union husband? [laughter] >> were very close to her grandparents. we were kidser coming up you didn't ask elderly people questions. one day i said to my grandmom, i said i said i was not a slave's have to wash a white woman's feet presage my grandmom i did have the hewherewithal to ask the ladies name but i found out and as i said, we travel all over the world. we do research on black people where we traveled getting back to the story, i had a nephew that had a dna test. this young lady reached out to him and communicated back and forth, back and forth. finally she said is looking for my grandfather. and she asked these questions uehe said you need to talk to my aunts, that is what she does. he said is it okay if i talk?
oh sure. i gave her my cell phone number she called and we talked and talked. finally she said i am looking for my granddaughter and i wondered if you could help me. i said let me get my pencil and paper. she said i will e-mail to you for so she did and my husband was on the computer and said honey and he gave me the paper and i found out this young lady, her grandfather is my father. and that is the start of me doing the research. he was arrested for vagrancy my father's not allowed to read or write spring we have got stories to tell her trying to get herto program together, get our paperwork together so we can pass this on to our future generations parts of that is what we do's all the time. we teach it to senior centers and we go to schools and we teach kids. and then we just do it if someone i been looking for
so-and-so, i just did some research for a lady who they are very prominent in this area. i found out i'd never jump research for i found a slave was related to someone who gave a narrative when they do slave marriages. sweat evelyn thank you for thatho after back on the appreciate it. speech is an interesting point it's through the 13th a member the things that happened in the system and being arrested for vagrancy that tried to enact laws that brought things as closely back to slavery as possible return with the aftermath of the civil war down the south. the principal difference is, will the principal difference is that allows people to be worked at the wills of others.
people are not sold. the differences one the things people celebrated, juneteenth one of things that was important to them was the end of the legal ability to sell people's children. to sell people's spouses, their brothers and sisters away from one another. slavery was a system of working without pay. being labeled property, cattle, slavery dies in young children, who could do places people can be separated from their families. estate sales, sales for money just whatever. this kind of actions were traumatizing to enslave people.
after the end of slavery when the first things people do going to the bureau is to look for relatives got try to find my mother, myy kids, my sister, my brother. i really do think one of the reasons juneteenth has become one of the aspects of june 18th that's kept it alive for one or 56 years is it's a family holiday. people come together, gather together in families of other airports in the summer you'll see black people walking around with t-shirts on from the reed family reunion calmly sought family reunion. this notion of gathering people together i'm convinced because of the trauma on the desire to keep people together because for hundreds of years enslave people could be separated. the phrasing never to be seen again producingu that a lot
been narrative she was talking about your seat never to be seen i again. just imagine that. we lose relatives to death and sometimes estrangement. but not 70 coming in and saying you know, we need money so your three children we are going to sell them to louisiana or whatever. that kind of thing left a mark and people have been trying to recoup, regroup from that ever since. steuben annette gordon reed, and her husband dr. jo pierce are prominent retired couple in san antonio, i've met them thseveral times at the texas book festival in austin. but mrs. pierce e-mail meay separately cigna texas state history museum has abruptly canceled the speech by the authors of the new book on the
alamo. w i do not know if you are familiar with that book. taxes are trying to keep theut truth from competing with, this is crazy and related to censorship. i know we touched on forget the alamo a minute ago. they wanted to acknowledge this e-mail. >> guest: yes i've heard about the situation. what they call the streisand effect. i think when you draw attention to things like this, this'll probably makeable go out and read the book even more. people do not like to have ideas and things kept from them. that is an unfortunate situation from the things i've actually read about a it. i have not read the book yet. that should be on my nightstand next. >> host: will you be on the book festival circuit this fall? >> i think so. s i'm supposed to be on the book circuit this fall.
i'm hoping we will be able to be there in person for the virtual things are nice but it's also nice to actually out and meet people commune with those atmospheres are like it's a lot of fun. >> host: texas is in person this year. go ahead neville. my question is related to sally hemmings. we all know the name sally hemmings. and we know her story. what i miss is a visual, and image, a depiction of sally hemmings. you see from time to time descriptions that she might be white and she had long
straight hair down her head. that she was three-quarter european and a quarter african. but i do not see many sketches. i do not see many images. i do not see many pictures which depict sally hemmings. and doctor reed said something about that for me please? steuben thank you novel. >> guest: we do not have any depictions oftu her. people have imagined ideas of what they look like reproductions of her. we do not have a pictures there's nothing to go on. we don't have any images of jefferson's wife. there may be a couple silhouettes of her. strangely enough portraits were destroyed her father's
home was destroyed by fire. but it's interesting she apparently did not sit for a portrait as a married woman which people of that class would have done. they are only descriptions of her business is sort of an odd thing these two sisters completely different places in the hierarchy, neither of them do we have any visual images of. you would expect to have one, maybe not sally hemmings. there are images of the hemmings family of her grandchildren that we have. we do not have portraits of martha or of sally. this is a text from an page a high school social studies teacher at hamilton high school in hamilton mass. doctor reed, my tenth grade colleague and i have assigned
for the tenth grade honor students and making the decision regarding this year's assigned book we had conversation with students, mostly white who were involved with the localho human rights committee. a few students expressed to us they felt strongly books us on our race, gender, identity could only be assigned from authors who identify as part of a community they write about. as a teacher i respect and understand where the students are coming from. but i disagree impart with their argument. i want to explore this argument further this summer and wonder about your thoughts? a lot to digest there. the students only want bite writing from a committee which they come from her they do not want books by white people about black people? so when i that's what we are headed here.
>> guest: these are young people pretty don't agree with that for some the best books about slavery racially based slavery in the united states event by white authors. but understand their desire to probe personal to use people writing about personall issues were part of the community. juneteenth is a history book but is that memoir as well. and to talk about growing up as a black person and texas in general, i could understand why, or marked more personal things where they would want the individual to be ay member of the community. if your time but straight history white authors write about black people. i mention david who has a book on douglas. i read about thomas jefferson.
but the memoir part of it it's more personal i understand why they would have a particular group. one thing i want to said number people have called doctor gordon reed i am not a doctor i am fortunately in appointment and history of nine do not have a ph di do think back to when i wrote my book i'm just professor gordon reed or ms. gordon reed or annette. dissipating how will you know me. the next is from martha lake maine, go ahead martha hi peter. i miss part of the program so i hope i'm not repeating a question from someone else from professor gordon reed. i am a retired maryland public school teacher.
i am very upset about the controversial 1619 project and the pulitzer organization offering $5000 to underpaid school teachers to teach, whatever that is supposed to be. i am really quite about it. i would like her knowledge or her opinion please. >> host: thank you martha. >> guest: another is a controversial subject for people. i do not know about paying pbyte don't i think about that program or what she is referring to. i think it is a point of discussion. it is a point when i have read is a number of essays it is a lead essay is the one that
cause problems for a number of people. the other side is problematic for one reason or another. i think it should be discussed. i think there are other parts of it i think be very illuminating to students and they could be useful i don't think as we were talking before forget the alamo and others because i don't think stopping thanks from being discussed is the way to go. if it ist' out there it's in the public eye. students at an appropriate age should be made aware of this kind of things and to discuss it. if you think there are points that are problematic, you can raise those. you can bring opposing views. i think it's much better to
discuss, that's the bottom line i have on this. >> host: we are going to finish with this text hi annette david cooper, by high 1977. [laughter] i just text mark evans to say you m were on. question, have you seen your mural on the square? what did you think, love your work. >> guest: thank you and this is amazing, david cooper and i were very good friends. yes i have seen the mural, i've seen the bus to braid it also learned that going to name a school after me in my hometown. which shows you some of the changes that have taken place in that town over the years. i am all for it, people have been very kind and very supportive of me. so when give us very quickly we have 30 seconds left to give us a history of this mural. what happens what this is? switches some admirers and my mother's friends stop able to
put up a mural in my hometown and they put a bust up of me as well. i went down for the unveiling of the bus does not differ the mural it's wonderful i wish my parents were there to see all of this. >> host: which schools going to be named after you do know? me too an elementary school they're building this opening in august of 2022. spirit will annette gordon reed we often ask our authors on theirk favorite books. annette gordon reed sent us this list by james baldwin the devil finds works notes of eight native son. hg wells experiment and autobiography kindred by octavia beutler the little prince in a single man by christopher mr. wood. currently reading a book called wake the history of womenca led slavery revolts by rebecca hall. the cruelty is the point by adam and the papers of thomas jefferson, the price is another book that she is currently reading. annette gordon reed has been a guest on book tv for the past
two hours. we very much appreciate your time. >> guest: thank you for inviting me. >> annette gordon reads books the patriots originally published on juneteenth are available in the c-span shop. every c-span shop percepts help support nonprofit operations including our programming, community outreach efforts and educational programs. pick up a copy of annette gordon reads books today page cspanshop.org. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪
♪ ♪ ♪ >> during a virtual event at the reagan presidential library, fox news martha mccown discovered world war ii battle of your achievement with fellow host dana perino. here's a portion of the program. >> is ashley grateful to the editor from start atonement writing a book i started telling him this story about being a little girl and going up into my grandfather's attic and finding these letters that had been written by my mother's first cousin harry gray who was killed at iwo jima when he was 15. from a young age out breed these letters they move me too tears. i thought, if i'm going to put the time into writing a book i wanted to be a book that is about something i am going to learn a ton researching. i spent the next three years researching euro jima, learning about the battle,
traveling and just sort of immersing myself in this one battle from the pacific world war ii. i learned so much about harry and not only i ended up learning a lot about the men who were there with him. >> host: tell me little bit about harry. >> guest: he was from massachusetts father died he was 12 siu quickly became sort of the man of the house. he was very close to his sister and his mother. his mother was his sister. we were all very close to have a pretty small family. i grew up knowing her very well but always what about the loss she suffered losing her husband at a young age and then her son which was an absolute heartbreaking loss that reverberated through my family but even as little kids my mom, who's very close to her cousin harry adored him he was like a "big brother" to her. losing him was something that stayed with her for the rest of her life. as a child i did not nurse and the magnitude of it you don't really feel those things in your little. but the older i got the more i
dug into the letters i realized why this was such a huge part of her life in her family's life. so when the way you structure the book of the story of the battle to build up to the fight in the pacific. but you intersperse that was stories that you remember from your childhood that you researched and learned. if you would not mind telling everybody, one of the stories it sticks with me so much as when they find out that pearl harbor has been bombed. whatever my mom tell me as a kid about that day purchase a boot to church after words they were so excited she and another little girl they got to go to howard johnson's and have hot chocolate. she said we're sitting in the booth that had just arrived with whip cream on top she could smell it shoots during it to cool it off and then she heard something crackling on the radio and suddenly all the adults in the room got nervous and started standing up putting their coats on. sherman her mother grabbing her by the wrist and we got to go we got to go.
like all hell is breaking loose the world just changed in an instant. she did not know what is going on. but she remembered that moment for the rest of her life. in course that changed everything for us all of the young men they knew including harry hugo a couple of years later he went to the pacifica chains are lives forever. to watch the rest of this program but our website booktv.org. use the search box near the top of the page to look for martha or the title of her book, on known valor. : :