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tv   Akhil Reed Amar The Words That Made Us  CSPAN  July 3, 2021 9:01am-10:04am EDT

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[inaudible]. >> i really do it encourage her audience to begin up and read it because a completely different perspective and refreshing look at the american revolution. thank you for spinning your evening with us and through the pandemic, hopefully we will see you inn person. [inaudible]. >> i think you once again for having me. ♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪♪ ♪ ♪♪ >> book tv continues now on
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"c-span2". television for serious readers. >> good evening everyone. new york historical society's president and ceo and i am thrilledme to welcome you to tonight virtual program. america's constitutional conversation 1760 - 1840 rated a particular grateful this evening for the jerome and. [inaudible]. for hosting the program tonight and i'm delighted to welcome back so thank you for your great partnership. just before i introduce our speakers, i want to recognize and thank new york historical trustees for joining us this evening. first and foremost as manager of the board of trustees and the chair of executive committee and trustees dorothy goldman,
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suzanne pack. [inaudible]. and one ofan tonight speakers akhil reed amar who will be joining us momentarily on the virtual stage. i would also like to think our chairman counsel and we are so very grateful for each and every one of you for your encouragement and support especially at this challenging time. well then, we are pleased to welcome akhil reed amar back to our virtual stage. yale university law and political science professor and before joining yale faculty, he served for stephenen breyer when he was judge, court of appeals for the fourth circuit. akhil reed amar is also a regular visiting author and yale university law and political science professor. and also his newly released book
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"the words that made us" americans conversational 1760 - 1840 pretty joining us for moderator this evening is senior fellow at the national institute of senior editor of the national review and the author of numerous books including a history of america's essentialist idea and marshall the man who made the supreme court's historian curator for new york historical from 2004 exhibition alexander hamilton the man-made honor in american and i was delighted to be able to work with him that can. in 2008, president george w. bush awarded him the national mental in the white house ceremony. this program will be an hour including 155 minutes for questions and answers the questions can be submitted via the q&a function on your screen and in the interest of simplicity free disabled the
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chat function tonight to please remember use the q and day. speakers will get to as many questions as time allows. and now i am turning our virtual stage over to tonight speaker. thank you. akhil: okay thank you. thank you for joining us it's always a pleasure andnd an honor to be the new york historical society is always a pleasure to be with thea professor akhil red amar who i'm going to give to the rest of evening because he's a dear old friend has been for years and he has written this terrific book "the words that made us" america's constitutional conversation printed 1840 it's something 60 - 1840 rated and your book covers a lot of things that you would expect to be covered in such a
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book, you talk about the constitutional convention. but i think a lot of the real richness of this books and what impressed me so much about its richness as things that are maybe less expected and may be a little surprising. and i'm want to start with two words from your title and your subtitle. i want to start with words in conversation which maybe is not the first thing that people would think of when you think of the constitution and the history and the developments. so a conversation are you talking about, for the people in it and what kind of thing are they saying. akhil: they began as rotation subjects in the new world. and by talking to each other in newspapers especially, and
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letters and face-to-face conversation, they talk themselves into becoming americans and begin to realize whether their massachusetts are down in virginia, or in still other colonies, they to begin in 1716 and begin to understand with ahab in common with each other. they're talking to britain initially and they see themselves in the beginning with the british subject in the new world in trying to persuade the brothers and cousins and friends in britain the britain is not treating them well. and yes, i think some people don't maybe focus on this idea of conversation that the constitution it is a past so with words of course but it comes to life in order dated late the constituting and at in
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that act is just not putting the document to a vote, and epic boat up and down the continent about with more people were allowed to say ea or may that had never been allowed to put anything significant in world history is not just about, it was a series of conversations a dialogue and people prefer the document of people more against it, people in the middle and where the fence they were listening to both sides. in a newspapers, you are journalists, and newspapers and print, media are in dispensable to this democratic ordained project printed so there talking initially about becoming americans and no become the declaration of independence and ethen eventually they talk themselves into becoming indivisible he americans. one nation indivisible that is
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the constitution prayed and they do it epically through words and pictures political cartoons and some very hard pollution stuff, the federal paper and really simple stuff, poetry, limericks. it is an amazing inclusive robust uninhibited wide open distinctly america experience. richard: free-for-all, so one just big-name. you do cover them of people on the presidential placemat and people in our wallets and this is the most vigorous conversation right. characters much bigger than that. akhil: it a is rated and so for example act i scene one is about what he's bring pretty big-name but is not a household name. as a firebrand it to the american revolution and new
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england's patrick henry and john adams said he was advocating and right before that was patrick henry. until the story that chapter of three people who will be significant over the next 15 years which first person 1760 and something 61. in one of them is skeptical of these people who call themselves patriots. he's actually the most prominent loyalties, american-born boylston on the content by 1775 right and what is stemming is that most people even really the rent people don't really know his name on the story thomas hutchinson is going to become the. royal governor of massachusetts. lt. governor, american born. if you and us, as latest 1770 or
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so, definitely something 65, which of these two famous boston poor star people is going to end up supporting american independence and who will enough siding with others. benjamin franklin and thomas hutchinson. they would say franklin would pretty illegitimate son is the royal governor of new jersey and hutchinson replied. as a lot of people that are more than hutchinson but i picked him in particular because i want my audience to see that there was another side even to the american revolution. if thomas hutchinson were alive today, was on the adult. my analogy would be that he's mitt romney. harvard educated is sober is a traditionalist and he believes in hierarchy and he loves his country but his country is
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britain and heve loves his hometown which is positive he had been lucky enough to be born 20 years earlier, he would not have hadad to pick between them but he does. and hehe ends up picking his ke. so i did try to widen the cast fof characters beyond the big six. washington adams jefferson madison and of course franklin hamilton. richard: you mentioned cartoons and he also mentioned benjamin franklin party did so in a way your title almost cells are conversation short. it's not just words, is also attitudes involved in tell us about this great cartoon that franklin generates very early on in thisn conversation. akhil: so is such a genius, he invents bifocals, and the franklin stove and events lightening rod. his social institutions in the first secular university lending
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library philosophical station but he is also invents the world's first real political cartoon. in his offer britain it like hobart, it comes from america early on americans very democratic culture, it is simple edit the picture 7054, the picture of a snake that is cut up into pieces. and he has a slogan, is the first viral means and today we could say #. join or die. it and in 1754 he said the columns have to work together with the mother country with printed to defeat the french in our country. these are the early stages of what would become confronted indian work in an effort same page, in 1754, on the newspaper, he is a newspaper magnet. he were alive today he might be
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murdoch or something like that in the very same paper there's this picture of the snake and this viral meme # join or die in effect and is also telling his audience about a young 22 -year-old military officer from virginia who bravely confronting french and his name is george washington is going to get himselfge a name and papers up d down the continent 50 different references at age 20 till party to where you're to hear from him again. but that join or die cartoon is so simple, it is not high art previous was easy to replicate and a cartoonist up and down the continent start to copy it sort of like free tweeting today. because journalists, printers don't really pay a lot for content yet they're not pink scribblers like you and me to write stuff. in the basically.
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[inaudible]. they are publishing proceedings of local assemblies grand jury announcements judicial opinions but also republishing things that appear elsewhere. if you're in new york reprinting something for philadelphia boston or london printed in this joinn or die image goes viral first in 1754, within ten years later when the y colonies are beginning to unite against london, and is a rebirth as wittily do the congress were the colonies to join together. in ten years after that, and has a read rebirth of the snake pretty feet high rates in any reawakened, like a phoenix. in 1734, he reawakens the continent progress and back in franklin's philadelphia is going to involve a joining against
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britain and if he doesn't join, you will die. and eventually, this is going to be a single best federalist argument for the constitution. you have to hang together otherwise present kindnessr, to pieces france or spain. it's a geostrategic argument for indivisible union and my god, franklin it is seen a version of that, more british version of that is earliest something 54 and he puts it in the simple picture. ordinary people can understand it and three simple mottos. words that make up a powerful political argument free to join or die. these infant think it, and imagining a twitter or just how many characters, instagram, it is amazing. it is snapchat for unit. richard: and the characters. he smart enough to stop were his
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head. and we want to get back obviously to george washington. but he raised here very important to point. i think this is one of the most striking a point to make. which is that in america's constitutional development of the conversation is not just how many entirely within our own, also impacted over and over again it by the world. talk to us more about that pretty what is our position in the world have to do with our thoughts about how we govern ourselves. and affected by oceans, right or wrong. akhil: we are if we join together, if we don't regarding atlanta, borders between south carolina north carolina north carolina and georgia in maryland and maryland it is when you, the dixon line in pennsylvania and new york andn- so on.
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so the genius of franklin it is to understand and eventually washington andll hamilton that e atlantic ocean it will be an amazing moat on what will protect us against the powers of europe but only if we tonight and we don't fight each other and your can actually plant up against eachh other divide and conquer fashion. a knighted towards west make it and an american domain, national domain and not just virginia's backyard pennsylvania's territory or connecticut or even a piece of what becomes ohio. the western reserve. so yes americans as early as 1754, franklin in washington are beginning to see the possibility of world at war right in the constitution comes out of our evolution is part of a larger
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global struggle. our audiences very impressive, very sophisticated. historically and of course you ask them, wind and the first world war started, they would say oh it started in 1914 in the european. no, it started it 1754 in america back in countries with a younger officer named george washington it gets involved in confrontation between the two great superpowers of the world, france and england the net will eventually in 1754 that is to join or die. in a thing called the albany congress and some of the colonies get together and it's going to become the world's first global war. second in the two great powers and other european powers get involved in the action in this
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war which he called the french and indian war. the world called at seven years war. going to involve conflict and multiple oceans and multiple continents of the new world and the old world simultaneously and is going to culminate in a massive redrawing of the global map pretty candidate will move from the french column and the british column. and no conflict in world history before, multiple conflicts, the continents new and old oceanic struggles. it is the first world war and at the same time, is generated to get that world war, a world conversation because warships can move troops quickly than ever predict train ships can move this papers back and forth more easily than ever. and london newspapers are being read in boston, and boston newspapers are being read in
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london. and both of are being read in philadelphia and new york city and charleston greatest figure beginning toilg have actually a genuine world conversation and a dizzy conversation about constitutional first principles like what should be the rules for the empire. and of britain and one candidate will have to pay for this really expensive war. and i think it's only fair that americans in the big beneficiary who just gotten rid of a hued french debt to the british colonies of they're going to start opposing taxes immediately after the war's end, the seven years more conventionally begins in 1757 it and ends with the treaty of paris in 1763. in the aftermath of that, to pay for that war and britain will try to tax america and that will eventually be to thedi american revolution.
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in the american revolution will be the continuation of the world war because eventually france will jump again and again it you might not know even though the really sophisticated. revolution and independence is one part of a global struggle. present has to defend colonies in india, africa, and keep troops in homes of the french what invaded and we might think that we one while there were two french fighters on land and sea for every american it even at yorktown. we were part of a larger world struggle and at the time, we are puny. we million americans and 30 million french. richard: washington and the way this with this frontier great this. but i yorktown, he is there demanding the american army.
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and inn the next decade, he will become the first president of this new country. you have him and you praise him as a constitutional thinker. this might strike people as a little odd, we know george washington was a great man. we think of him as a great general party and obviously witg think of him as a great executive. but he did not write any federalist papers. he did not write the declaration of independence, he wasin asked wwith constitutional, but he hardly said anything and yet you identify him they very important constitutional thinker. so it is contribution to this conversation. and how does he make it. akhil: substantive family and met on methodology clay, he's indispensable man have him come there's no constitution remotely
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like the one that we have graded so take this idea of conversati, the method way, he needs somebody to listen washington is not a a great scribbler. it is not a big talker or a writer for further pamphlet. but, he is a very good listener and he brings people who disagree and this is the both sides ill have hamilton on his right and jefferson on his left and it listens to his advisors. and actually, he does is a good generator of words. but it doesn't run a pads or pamphlet. he writes letters to people. he is a wonderful correspondent partied in his correspondence in turn, the pun intended, they are like network correspondence
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today. there giving him intelligence information from all parts of america and eventually even from across the water. lafayette and france and other areas argued so he writes more and receives more letters than just about anyone other than thomas jefferson i think. and beasley need to confirm this by not t looking at the national database and free to everyone and work searchable. you can see how many letters go back and forth to washington. he is a wonderful listener and lihe's unanimously elected president. even the people who go to constantly constitution over washington. he's unanimously reelected in part because he's trying to listen everyone and unify the country and hold together the symbol of union. and substantively, now moving fromve the method that he listes to everyone a sober. and john adams, he really good book on the adams family.
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but the world's best customer you might think that jefferson is great in thomas jefferson it is soo ideological he cannot her what it does not want to hear pretty to sound familiar we have the problem today and i am so impressed washington who does not have strong ideological eocommitments, let's get to the facts. i want to hear both sides carefully and then i will make up my mind. so jefferson is not the world's best listener. john adams is at the world's best listener and some of these people are better protecting it. but now washington substance, you do. just like franklin, he understands 24 dive printed in the joint or die appears in may of 1754 and on the same page, is actually reference to the young officer george washington. benjamin franklin talking about george washington and age 22
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predict and understand this from a military point of view and list the colonies hang together, in 1776 they're done for. so the continental ideas and whose at his right hand throughout the american revolution. basically are pretty early on, alexander hamilton. to borrow a phrase, alexander hamilton american. he isn't just about john adamsts the way might be or virginia with a jefferson and james madison. alexander hamilton does not have or as a single loyalty to anyone state. although he and sub coming to new york pretty comes from abroad and he loves america as a tries to help someone into existence and a key idea is union, join or die. national security and if we do not create an indivisible he
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union which is what washington is advocating in the early 1780s and so is hamilton called the continental list. they will, the first state federal states which is far more influential than anything as madison wrote like that federal stance in the make it geostrategic argument for units read if you hold together and yes you can have a huge moat, called the atlantic ocean, they won't need a big army, build powers of europe as well as we don't kill it together. we gotta get rid of land orders. indivisible he like the unions of scotland and england. britain had 10 million people and france with 30 million people and how do they do that pretty and partly have good capitol structure. washington and bank and hamilton and jefferson and madison, not so much. but also this strong indivisible union between england and scotland, that will be the model
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for the more perfect union of america. because england problems are different kingdoms, they are fighting each other and their coming down on the english and the sponsor getting involved printed and that is not what induces to liberty. union will lead to liberty as washington states rated first last and always and has an argument on the continent afters yorktown and he is the only what he really and gives it up and he does not makee himself can get. he could have graded but he understands that liberty in union and he said that during the revolutionary war. he says that actually in a letter that accompanies the constitution itself. and state sovereignty and he says that in his farewell address i'd written largely by hamilton so he listens to everyone in this big idea is that we are all americans. he's a southerner who
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understands the north and is spent time in the west. he is the embodiment of the marking unit in the continental army is really the only generally continental constitution. and the confederation congress is very local basically graded so washington is the embodiment of the american and he is franklin's snake. richard: there's another virginian, veteran who you also linknk to washington and to hamilton and outlives both of them. and he also stays in office. that is john marshall. if what is his role in this conversation. akhil: one of the things that are most proud of work as an author but i am also proud of my work is news. i tried to inspire other
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authors, my favorite authors. and try to learn from my favorite authors of both you and i really respect interesting images for example point is we do that with cartoon. but encourage do you really want to read a book about lincoln pretty only 18000o looking you have another one lincoln's relationship to the founding i think i even up to with the title. richard: it identified it. akhil: and then told you to write about john marshall and you did a pretty you didn't use my time of the party my title for that one was the last founder printed and yes, actually madison outlives marshall by a few years but medicine is been out of office since 1817. a diet in 1836.
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and marshall predeceases him but marshall is in office as a chief justice for 34 years or so printed so he is the last founder as that he is continuing to have an impact into the 1830s were hamilton excuse me, frequent died in 1790. in washington died in 1799 predict an eccentric and hamilton is still in 1804 and famously adams injured jefferson will die g on july 4th the 50th anniversary of the declaration of independence. but throughout all of this, marshall this in power and what is he doing tommy's vindicating arsenal vision. he is the great nationalist
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caring for the constitutional part of george washington with company thought. when he served at valley forge and if you are valley forge with washington, and hamilton, as marshall was, you understand that we need money and do support the troops and if we don't we are dead. adams was out there and jefferson wasn't there and medicine was not w there. i don't the roads way marshall does predict nationals who carry forward the mission prayed in washington's first biographer. and has immense respect is a brilliant lawyer marshall use that hamilton legal ideas and many other things about the bank. one of the things that he does, and the nationalist figure also a good listener. and talk about the relationships
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between some of the founders of jefferson and madison team upgrade and adams makes enemies, he is a loner. he teams upr, only with abigail. that he is going to feud even though hamilton is trying to help him. he starts with jefferson but then to become rivals. teams are important. jefferson and madison team up at hamilton and washington team up rated and marshall finds a teammate of the great joseph story and the teams in america work particular well when the combined and south. and particulars massachusetts and virginia. so marshall isso virginian story is massachusetts party to think about all of the other virginia, massachusetts teams. rhetorically james otis is from
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massachusetts and patrick and ring from virginia. your first vice president are going to be george washington and john adams prayed in the work together in 1776 and by the way, so did jefferson and adams and again in virginia and massachusetts percent. and adams vice president is virginian thomas jefferson. one of jefferson's vice president is the massachusetts guy, also going to be one of madison's vice presidents for unit the north and south team a massachusetts and virginia is important. the answer to your question, john marshall, the last founder, he strengthens the judiciary graded is a washington man,ma hamilton man, continental lists any find finds a partner from another region. and story together make a really impressive team just as washington and hamilton to predict and as others senate jefferson duke.
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richard: i think it is fair to say that both of us are not exactly numbers of the federalist party were very sympathetic to us. and this is an animating it talk. say a i good work for thomas jefferson. i agree with what you said but, after all, what does he added. akhil: let me begin by saying is #20 jefferson and skeptical of hamilton but you and others change my ideas about hamilton. but is much as anybody, change my idea aboutng hamilton. instead my idea about hamilton and jefferson is going to be correspondence pretty but if
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you'd asked me at age 20, went to college together. i would say then if i was lucky enough to have a son i would name him jefferson. so good work. especially the younger jefferson. in such an idealism in terms of the world of the could be better. he is the architect about become a northwest ordinance that proposes insulate to ended slavery not just northwest but all western territory. any dreams of an america that is open to talent. is going to help smart kids that are not supported privilege to be able to rise because of their native ability and academic o aptitude. he inspires ordinary people with his belief in ordinary people.
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and for all of his impressive attributes, does not get the common man. it is little to stiffen hierarchy. and thomas jefferson from a geo- perspective, he says also silly things truthfully but woody's president, which is actually and seduce more thanks. and one of the smartest things that he ever does is double the landmass of the united states, purchases and epic achievement in his. [inaudible]. completely consistent with his geostrategic ideas and i'm not sure that the president could've done that whitede because the french like to jefferson any like the front. his wonderful about bring people up. he has so much guts and so i'm not sure: would've ever done that with john adams because john adams might've had a way to annoy and he did find ways to
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annoy because he so blunt and spoken yankees a while, he sounds political party. people are goodeo at what they o and he actually pretends he's not appalled but he really is medicine is more openly and in an amazing political partnership and they create a dominant political machine that will basically do what the federalists. and free speech, really important. john adams does not get free speech. thomas jefferson get that and his partner madison, gets it even more.is and champion freedom speech and they're going to form a political party that will be the dominant political party. all the wayt to abe lincoln it and to you and i is people who have political service have to respect that really creates a newspaper empire unaffiliated sort ofr newspapers that support
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his wave of the world in a secretly fund this. he creates "fox news" network and affiliated, he understands the democratic newspaper culture ofs america. it is always telling medicine, do not write them against hamilton. rip it to shreds. his two good of a newspaper script worker. if you've got to go after him. so thomas jefferson, there's reason the guy is on mount rushmore. not criticizing because it's really important to me, the slavery issue. he gets worse over time. it sounds a political party, basically the southern base. there's the relevance of this today. today there's ae' a party and bh parties have this but let's talk about the republicanod party. and liz cheney. in the end, to protect the soul of your y party conscious and si
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respect her for that but upon the other side. you're going toev lose your vote if you're graham are kevin karthik. as of the things they know slavery is wrong the known in the hearts of miles but up with the order to to see john adams who made criticism acclimate in this act, they have agreed to party parties have a southern base. because they are politicians. and were going to line the bed that they made. requires compromises and against worsen slavery even though the roads i know it's wrong and eight expect respect idealism but in order to keep the political machine operative they become increasingly proslavery naturally is the story is told by their biographers.
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our friend and you tell a better than anyone else. in the book and james madison and you say on slavery medicine disappoints and i add to that, he is getting worse over time pretty actually at the end of his life says let's send them to the west. it's like spreading virus. which is the opposite of what jefferson and madison said early on. prevent it. that will actually trigger the more. washington gets better as time goes on. he realizes it is wrong the blacks provides and jefferson doesn't medicine doesn't. franklin gets better on slavery as time goes on. and his last act, unless chapter. [inaudible]. richard: tell about the story
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about franklin before we get to the questions. and so funny and just a great story. akhil: i talk about these great men mls seen i shut them all off. basically giving the death scenes. the o dramatically. i love them but they do die but in-depth i tell you each one there are deep ideas there. and for both, washington and franklin, the deep idea, their dying breath is basically emancipation and abolition we should get rid of slavery. inou washington doesn't quite kd he does make a big scene about it. he doesn't the businessperson a plantation owner by providing for the freedom of his own slaves in the many emancipation proclamation. hose raichlen, newspaper guy. he first proposes to congress and anti- slave and the congress should do the maximum that
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maximum should try to diminish the slavery. and the people from georgia and south carolina don't like that in the yelling is franklin among young i actually said what is been franklin know about the constitution. so franklin writes truth. and he is brilliant. and in the cartoons and brilliant and they appeal to a democratic culture. his tongue-in-cheek party to any rights as if actually says well that's so many arguments that i just heard about why we should preserve slavery made by the georgians and put me in mind with something that happened 10p years ago. there was the sarah slaveholder to actually was defending the enslavement of the christian. andte every single argument that
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the georgians made about enslaving black people, he makes the sum of course made by basically african era first light enslaving christians. they have to do the work that i believe in god and better off here than they are in their homeland. and he wants to intermarry with lesser. holy scripture and authorizes this and actually this is good for them. it's a positive step. so he takes every one of the georgian arguments and he flips around it and it's a brilliant spoof. it's the same guy 16 years old presents and pretended that he was a middle-aged matron student. my 15 years old, he on his own 1brother runs the newspaper doesn't realize that franklin has created a character. and he does it at the entity knows. and so he knows that america will eventually recognize this
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is his diet message to america. we want to actually, 100 years depending slavery the way 100 years ago slavery was defended when people were enslaved. the european christians. richard: and one of the funniest things about that is the he claims this is some book was written 100 years agogo my memos from some english diplomat. and people in philadelphia actually went and cindy have a copy of that book printed is made up but it was so well done and so firmly tongue-in-cheek. okay, now we have some questions coming. here's one, per pertinent to what you would say, as literacy of the market people evolve in 1940 in other words, how literate were weight, more literate are already literate from 1760-1840 and obviously
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there's gonna be a base year, all these newspaper writings and letter writings will fall on. akhil: is spectacularly widespread among whites. female as well as male. and partly because america is a protestant culture and especially americans especially in new england predict particularly the puritan but even in places like virginia more cavalier. in new england's, more pertinent round. english centers but if you're protestant, you believe that you have to read the bible solely scriptural. and americans do read their bible and even someone is latest andy jackson and i'm good words to say about him on thinks.
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he believes in invisible union and making it or stand on jackson's shoulders and resisting it and jackson but andy jackson is self-taught predict he goes to church every sunday and listens to people preached in the pulpit. preached from the gospel, from the bible. it's was a bible reading and bible discussing culture. very famously, someone like jonathan edwards any grants the name ehrenberg. publishes instruments it the hands of an ad defendant ingrid got it so o even in 1760, remarkable writings among whites and by 1790, america has more newspapers and readers per capita than any country in the world including britain. and certain technological developments will facilitate that so that when you get for example, the erie canal, you can
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actually now go all the way around america just like you can go all the way around britain. you can go from chicago across the great lakes, buffalo, then across area canal party hudson to new york and all around florida and the coast all of the way up over to new orleans and up the mississippi to chicago. so letters can travel faster. ships can travel faster eventually and of course youas going to get railroaded by the end of my time. an 1840. it is a remarkable letter writing and he was raichlen, is a postmaster. in all of these guys are newspaper guys and so some of them are five of them are newspaper scribblers and george washington's read more newspapers and anyone around. there also literate writers. in our audience can read these
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letters free online in the national archives has every letter word searchable to and from every major founder's are remarkable literary culture. i don't talk about women i feel that.out but ik did talk about apical, amazing and because adams is a public service, and he sacrifices himself, virtuously for the country. he is away from abigail for a long time. because he is away in france, there's lots of letters back and forth they been in the same place. they would love to be the same place, they really love each other and respect each other. and she is a smart and fun to read but because they are separated, we have amazing letters back w and forth between abigail and john.
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is really a highly red newspaper culture. richard: what about the linguistics, german speakers. to what extent were these documents translated into german language. akhil: because i don't speak german i was interested in that. but the declaration of independence, german speakers i think as late as the first congress, discussion about translating congressional proceedings place in pennsylvania into thehe germans. has become the house i can't remember, there are a couple of them. and you may know our mutual friend. and lincoln is the secret owner
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of a german language newspaper in springfield, illinois andua german language speakers are about 10 percent of the population in springfield near all-pro lincoln because secretly is the owner of this newspaper. by the way, lincoln at a freakishly early age, he reads newspapers wherever he can find them. in early on, is writing anonymously because newspapers back and work at a partisan affiliation, many of them treated like the national review today. thank the new york times actually on one side in the post is on the other. richard: . [inaudible]. akhil: so lincoln reads newspapers rights ads and also
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owns german language newspaper and especially yes, there were german language newspapers. i have hundreds of citations to the newspapers. not because i'm better than the folks that came before us, ten years ago or five years ago, they were not online in word searchable. and of the ark, three database that every academic can get for free and hit america's struggle newspaper so i don't have to go to 40 different cities and find piles newspapers predict and just find them online. but the truth is that intent really look at too many of the german language newspapers which are around the because i don't speak german. richard: on questioners asking about the religious diversity in america during this period and is not a problem or somehow benefited. akhil: it is a challenge and
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hamilton, excuse me madison rights it powerfully. in billing on experience even in virginia between baptist and episcopalians. but today to say basically they're all christian. i promise you, and only takes to to kill each other over centuries than any two things will do printed protestants and catholics will do. for hundred years as religious warfare in central europe over angels and protestants and catholics putting two will do catholics and protestants, christians and jews, jews and muslims. muslims and hindus, any, any two will do. and america is way more than two. and got congregationalist up in new england, freethinkers and rhode island, it was a great great grandmother by the way. and roger williams.
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freethinkers and rhode island and congregationalist in new england.al britain, virginia, new york. many different and quakers in pennsylvania and delaware, angleton's especially in virginia and the carolinas. the going to be sets by the time of 1840 the shakers and the methodist and more baptists coming aboard. the baptists are important in virginia and madison befriends the baptists in particular. so that is a lot of religious diversity. in this what he initially be a stumbling block. catholics in maryland, but america for strategic reasons, we have to hang together. three words join or die.
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so much so that the first confederation congress actually writes another cross saying that why don't you join us even though we recently got a war against the jews. french and indian war. even though your catholic we are protestant, your french speaking and were english speaking, geo strategically, is going be useful for us to have you on board so that you don't stab us in the back while we are fighting the rats on the coast. so i sent a nice letter saying that this is our view. we membership in like a credit card you been preapproved for card with american express or mastercard or whatever. and they say, thank you but no thanks. we really don't want that it so americans actually try to conquer to back and then they
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come close but they fail read some religious diversity is one of the things it's going to make it hard for americans to join. thirteenem different colonies fr different times different races and virginia is basically about making money and restitution six basically about religious freedoms. so my story begins in 1760, they are not americans. their virginians, and south carolinians and massachusetts men. but because of the newspapers because of british to treat them all caught up pretty badly, and later the course of action. they talk themselves to be in americans and basically saying to themselves, there's a lot of religious diversity but you know what, that can be a strength for us rather than a weakness that's were madison comes and the religious diversity can be a
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strength. the fact that the time of our many people paid attention predict the main argument was a strategic point of washington and hamilton and franklinaj to join or die idea. a religious is going to be someone block. one final thing, i don't know if i told you, two places in the world, that are pretty self-governing and free on the rights and the source. and the swiss don't have the same language they don't have the same religion, the protestants andhe catholics so w do they hang together and what makes the britts and the swiss together working democracy or actually catholics and protestants even and church people in britain are treated here's with the federalist say. defensible borders is what works in england and ireland and the only name he defensible. and this was even though when
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the catholic they have a defensible border. and if we can create a continental union, join or die and hang together, will have a defensible order call the atlantic ocean and we will need to be army. it will be threatening liberty was to have english and the deceptively thehe spanish and ny is less threatening to people in the coast. so that is the idea pretty geo strategically we are one of people even though the religiously we are not quite there. but hey in his work for this was so we can make it work for america. the federalist talk about this west and the british example. richard: just a brief time for the last question. an interesting one. constitution never mentions the two political parties and yet very soon, lo and behold, two political parties.
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akhil: and that is the story that i tell about when his former friends and allies jefferson and adams work together 1776, and to diverge and adams makes a crime to criticize adams and in response and by the way marshall does not join adams to marshall's credit. but he never in all his and on the separate in response to that, jefferson takes a loose coalition and turns it into a much more organized political party. ... ...
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jefferson and madison's buddy still walks among us. the republicans and the democrats but the oldest party in the world except the tories may be older. >> it is and one of the things i said about your book on madison is i thought it was a spectacular biography because it captures madison. he had no job except public service. hamilton was a lawyer. washington was a general in the surveyor and a business person,
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jefferson dabbled in law and franklin was a printer. this is the only thing madison does, he is appalled from start to finish and he's creating a party. he's not that different from martin van buren or mark hanna or mitch mcconnell or lyndon johnson or franklin roosevelt and i'm trying to pick people across the spectrum. abraham lincoln is a party guy. he loves politics and creates a party and that is, madison is a paul, we have a judge in as a appalled and sometimes, this is what we are seeing today, kevin mccarthy versus lynn cheney or lindsey graham, do you go with what is in the short-term interest of the party to keep the base or do you say even if it goes against the party, there are certain core principles we have to abide by
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as a matter of conscience? that is the kind of thing you will not understand if especially madison, as up your theorist as opposed to a political actor. >> may be a hopeful note because on the one hand we are saying madison was a politician. on the other hand politicians can be like james madison. a terrific book, thank you, thank you louise mayer, thank you new york historical society. ♪♪

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