tv House Science Space Technology Subcommittee Holds Hearing on NAS As... CSPAN April 30, 2021 7:33am-9:08am EDT
and ronald reagan biographer greg shirley include reagan rising citizen newt and mary ball washington. sunday at 9 p.m. eastern on afterwards, cindy mccain talks about her life with late husband senator john mccain and her book, stronger. she's interviewed by former u.s. senator joseph lieberman. watch booktv this weekend, on c-span2. >> next, scientists and researchers testify before house panel about nasa mars perseverance rover life on mars, the future of space exploration and partnerships with the private sector. >> today the committee is meeting virtually as therefore i want to announce a couple of reminders to members about the conduct of this hearing. first, please keep your video feed on as long as you're present in the hearing. even if you immediate to get a
peanut butter jelly sandwich leave the video on come back. members responsible for their own microphones, also please keep your mic muted unless you'reie speaking. finally, if members have documents that they wish to submit for the record, please e-mail them to the community clerk who is e-mail address it was circulated prior to the hearing. so good morning, welcome our witnesses thank you for being here. on february 18th few month ago millions of people waited at the mars perseverance rover dove .through the martian atmosphere at speeds of 12,000 miles per hour.on implemented a complex swens of operations leading to p the rovr safe landing and crater. the tiers of confirmation of the rover successful arrival lifted us as a nation like this tried us like nor and take minute to celebrate and thank people who got us to this point. completing development and launch in landing all navigating the challenge of the covid-19
pandemic. a shiny example of tireless dedication of nasa and jet propulsion laboratory and team so thank them all for embracing ngspirit of perseverance speakig of the name toipght give a plight to alexander mather middle student from virginia who wonri naming contest with roar with a name perseverance. today we pivot our attention to launch and landing to science and discovery. joining us here are group of experts no doubt will wet our appetite for science as perseverance explore remains in delta zero cratesser and search for science of past life. perseverance iss working at the beginning but a continuation of nasa systemic robotic exploring of exploration at the red planet starting over 50 years ago with fly biof the 1960s and landers of the 1970s and i still remember so clearly those
photos. perseverance is now the 5th u.s. rover in 9th spacecraft to carry out science operations on mars achievements that to date only the united states can claim. but next month china will attempt its first landing of the spacecraft that will desent from the 1 spacecraft orbiting mars. nasa spacecraft and others in the united air are around mars make no mistake perseverance is a first. it is shooking what some might consider are the holy grail of nasa of mars science. and lb clengted store and returned by future mission to earth for scientific analysis. 2007 account that recommended that highest subjective for mars exploration must be analysis of a diverse sweet of appropriate samples return from carefully silented regions on mars. in a 2011 nasa county recommended first step and mars
return campaign is highest priority large scale planetary science mission. instrument and sample that will collect allowow scientists to trace evolution on mars climate, geography and organic material. mars sample could also tell us more about our place in universe and other very being. scientists know when stars exploded they disperse carbon dioxide, nitrogen and compromise our own makeup that explains that we're made of this very star dust. perseverance give us the opportunity to see images of our elementali selves in martian dirt? armed with multiple cameras and seven sophisticated science instruments perseverance is about to begin the return on the years of hardwork and investment in nation of most advanced to date. that return is sure to bring ?ifng discoveries about mars,
habitability for pastin life, ad insight nog us prepare for sending human there is and inspiration that propels our nation to dream big and our scientists engineers, math and future explorers to embrace future challenges after confess that one of my favorite books is the -- red mars blue mars and recommend anybody watching, in the hearing or on c-span 3 that go buy it read it right away and i hope that -- our witnesses will continue to give, give us hope about the future of the human beings on mars. r so i look forward to our witness testimony and i now recognize my friend an the ranking member of the space sub committee, doctor brian -- doctor babin. >> yes, sir. thank you mr. chairman, and thank you all for great witnesses that we're about to hear. nasa's planetary science mission
exemplify the american spirit of exploration. that continue our very long tradition of our nation of discovery and scientific inquiry missions like perseverance expand humanities reach throughout the solar system, inspire the next generation of explorers and maintain technological expertise that is so important to our nation's economic national security. our nation once again experience a collective seven minutes of terror as the perseverance rover desengsded to martian surface two months ago. it will continue our long history ofut search for evidence of past life produce on the surface also demonstrated the very first control flight on another planet with our helicopter ingenuity. perseverance building on success of the curiosity rover that landed on mars nearly a decade ago. and the spirit and opportunity rover landings in 2004 not to
mention the 1976 viking landing the 1997 path finder and more recent phoenix inside landing. the landers were also enabled by spacecraft like maror in, mars global surveyor, mars odyssey mars arbiter and spacecraft. so far the united states is the only nation to successfully land and operate on the red planet jet propulsion laboratory is only entity to do so successfully. other nations have tried. and the soviet union has even landed but no other nation has landed and operated for more than a few sendings. but even when -- us even we have experienced failures. o with all of our success, it is easyw to forget that landing on mars is a very hard task we were reminded this in 1990s with los of the mars observer mars
climate arbiter and the mars polar lander despite these losses we remain undeterred. going forward other nations continue to explore mars. europe andnd russia still operae the trace gas arbiter around mars. india mars arbiter mission entered mars in 2014, and the united arab emirates hope mission and china arbor and entered in february. we alsoio expect another russian and european mars mission and a japanese mars moon exploration mission in a couple of years. mars is getting busy and crowded mand for lots of reasons. other nations see the benefit of planetary exploration and mars exploration in particular aside from the technological advantages of mars exploration, some nations particularly china see this as a way to legitimize communist parties leadership. debates about prohibitions on
cooperation with china are also coming to light as china prepares to land its own rover on mars. cooperation is always a tricky subject when it comes to space. and mars is no different. the obama administration can't role xo mars partnership with europe because of cost over runs for the james web space telescope that pushed europe to partner up with russia for that mission. as mars exploration becomes increasingly international, congress and the administration will have to carefully weigh the pros and cons of partnerships and the impact of those partnerships on technology transfer, and theft. national security, human rights and communist party legitimacy. it is privilege to partner with the world leader and exploration and they might have more to gain from partnering with us than we do with them. i look forward to many more exciting discoveries as we
embark upon a humanitarian mission to mars like bowl sample return mission. nasa planetary science program balances of vast portfolio of missions from large medium and small sizes accident ploars of a our solar system including outer planets asteroids, and hopefully even a return to venice in the future i also look very much to how mars sample return mission clipper mission reconstituting the nasty grace roman telescope under the astronomy division significantly expanding earth science division and how it will impact the agency and other programs. thank you very much for your -- our witnesses for appearing today. ii look forward to your fascinating stop request that i'll yield back mr. chairman. >> mr. babin thank you very much. and with that i recognize ranking member of the fourth committee mr. lucas for an
opening statement.. thank you pr holding this and nasa perseverance rover landed on mars in february and eight craftha successful lil land on martian surface over 40 years -- every one of theto vehicles were american made and built on technology gained from craft which came before it. i can't hear anything -- >> this perseverance anybody hear me? >> this emission continues this legacy of innovation. the vehicle of searching for science. and and ancient life d understanding red planet in addition to specific mission, perseverance she knowing us demonstrate new technologies. which will help aid future exploration of planetary bodies both through robot egg and human emissions few weeks ago we saw the launch of a small helicopter named -- [inaudible conversations] which made the earth powered flight on another planetary
body. now made each three lasting longer traveling greater distances in addition perseverance including technology demonstration called knocksy and the prp to take martian atmosphere mostly carbon dioxide and create breathable air first demonstration was successful producing more than 10 minutes of breathable air for an astronaut later perseverance will conduct both select samples of martian soil left on martian surface. these samples will eventually be retrieved and rrnedve to earth o research. there are many other cutting edge and inspiring facets to this perseverance each of which are lay the ground work for future crude exploration of mars. though the u.s. has demonstrated martian exploration we're not only's ones interested in exploring solar system in weeks
leading up to perseverance a craft managed by emirates in orbit additionally another crat made by china entered orbit the first vehicle from that country to do so. in the coming months china, will attempt to be the second country to join the u.s. -- >> like me to -- with a rover on mars. this comes a little more than two years after china first successfully landed a craft on the far side of the moon. and only months after china became the second country to successfully return samples on lunar surface to the earth less than 12 hours ago, china launched first module of a new space station which it hopes to have completed by end of next year. c with recent moves chinese communist party has all but declared its intent to challenge u.s. leadership and space. these recent examples serve as stark reminders why we need to avoid in our space program. we must be mindful of this as our committee considers our vast
increase investment and basic research and develop a new generation of stem participants. we have seen repeatedly the power of nasa missions to inspire future generations. i was pleased by the biden administration public supportp for the continue qaition of the program.p which will occur in american astronauts to lunar surface this deck cad and lay the growngsd work for future human exploration to mars.he now congress must do our part in ensure that nasa is the resources and the direction it needs to execute this mission. i want to thank our witnesses for being here today, and sharing their experiences working on this inspiring mission. i look forward to hearing ways this committee can continue to inspire future generationings. thank you, and i yield back my time mr. chairman. >> thank you mr. lucas very much. if there are other member who is wish to submit additional opening statements your statements will be added to the record at this point.
letat me move to witness introduction and dr. myer at nasa head quarters in science mission doctorate and lead science for nasa's mars exploration and for the mars return programs. he also serve as program scientist for the mars science laboratory curiosity mission. during his career m at nasa docr mars held many roles focus on study of life in universe including senior scientist for astrobiology primary research is living in extreme environments particularly the physical factors controlling microbial growth and survival. doctor myer received bachelor science degree in biology, from polytechnic institute and masters signs and doctorate in oceanography from texas a&m university we'll commit to you in just a minute -- if i can introduce the others
and then we'll start with you -- our sending witness is dr. bethany professor of planetary science and assistant director for state studies at caltech coinvestigator on z and sherlock instrument teams in mars 2020 perseverance rover also a member of the science team for the spirit and opportunity mars exploration rovers, and affiliate of the dawn orbiter exploration and largest asteroid in dwarp planet series. research focuses on chemistry of planetaryof surfaces for both techniques and astrobiology and science policych and outreach ad primary focus is it unraveling mars environmental history and understanding water in the solar system. received degree from washington university and st. louis, a masters of science in doctorate in geological sciences as a national science foundation graduate fella at ground university. so welcome doctor elleman a
third witness is lt. per principle investigators of the scanning habitability environments with for organic and chemicals sherlock instrument at the laboratory and principle science he's responsible for conducting nasa funded research as a pikoi of sciences focusing on characterie of organic molecules to identification of biosignatures. he received a bachelor science and fizz eggs astronomy from university of delaware and master of science and physics in a doctorate in astrophysics in university of alabama at birmingham so welcome. doctor beagle i'm sure our president will be pleased to know we have a university of delaware graduate. and our final witness is doctor tonia bo at the massachusetts of technology, and return sample science colead of the mars 2020
perseverance rover. research focuses on how microbial processes leave chemical mineral and signals in sedimentary rock and uses research approach to explore modern geochemical and processes to interpret life in the environment during the first 80% of earth's history and look for seens of past life on mars. received her undergraduate degree in geophysics from university and from california institute of technology. so welcome doctor bozak we will start with dr. myer you each have five minutes. doctor myer. floor is yours.
members of the sub committee i'm honored to appear to discuss mars science and role of the perseverance rover plays in nasa broader mars exploration program. mars is capturing the public's imagination as planet and our source of most similar to earth both planets formed 4.5 billion years only planets known to be able to support life. nevertheless, this transforms over time through the presence has followed dramatically different paths. by studying mars we can learning our history as well. nasa mars exploration program studies mars as planetary system in order to understand that extreme climate variation on different time scales. its history of geological processes that havepl shaped mas through time is potential to have hosted life, and future exploration by humans. as we learned about mars, the strategy has involved from followed the water to explore
habitability to seek signs of life. and has brought us to threshold of simply turn with the perseverance mission. perseverance is the most sophisticated to have ever been sent to red planet with a name thatev embody nasa passion and r nation capability to take on and overcome challenges. as such perseverance will contribute to all four nasa high level goals of mars during this exploration. in addition, perseverance will collect and carefully select rock and regular sampleses for future return to earth. perseverance is already achieved at least five firsts. terrain relative navigation enable descending spacecraft to avoid hazards landed in a place too dangerous for previous missionings to land but with terrain relative navigation we could and we did hospital you thinkmi ingenuity first aircraft
to make a power control flight on another planet a true wright brothers moment supercam capture sounds of wind in first audio of lay discoure zaps on another planet the mars oxygen and institute resource utilization experiment extracted oxygen you have the martian atmosphere a resource for future rockets and humans and percent veers is first leg of a round trip to mars by cashing samples on the surface. all of this with a ride to perseverance and carries more crams than any interplanetary mission in history this is allowed that's so to watch its own mission land on another worlding andnd for the public to share in the experience. we have accomplish much and continue to do so because of the mars exploration program. nasa insight i mission will sped mission listening for more mars earthquakes, nasa other rover
curiosity continues to make exciting discovers during climb of mount sharp entering 9 unit which is a window into the mars history when the planet became cold andin dry. nasa is also studying mars from orbit with the mars orbiter made in odyssey with mars express missions,tu expanding our understanding of the dynamic plan the we see today. for example, the science community has been able to piece together the anatomy of a 2018 global dust storm the storm that endede, nasa's opportunity mission. we now understand the probability and the progression of global dust storm and their effects there shall reducing risk of future emissions. as a program is brought us to the sample return, this will be the first time samples rebrought back from another planet involves three missions and close collaboration with the european space agency. once back on earth we can
analyze the samples and ways we can't on mars. we can use instruments too large and too complex to send to mars, and we can save material for future generations. using instruments that have not yet been invented addressing questions that no one has yet thought of. nasa mars exploration program ntcontinues to lead world in learning about mars and developing technology that allows us to delve deeper into secrets of the red planet making significant progress and goals of searching for life understanding mars climate, understanding mars geology and preparing for human exploration. i want to thank congress for their study and generous support of mars science, and i would be happy to any questions to answer any questions that you may have. thank you. f >> thank you doctor myer very much i promise you we're all very excited about mars science. now let me introduce doctor bethany for her testimony. >> thank you.
chairman byer ranking babin members of the sub committee, i appreciate all of your work to support science and ploarks ration, and thank you for the opportunity to appear today. our team was thrilled february 8th when recovered to mars and answer bullet marss and how we conduct w our exploration whiley colleagues will discuss the instruments and sample return portion.n. for me, and pirng many of us there's just a dna of explorationing in us as humans. we're drawn to ask profound questions. ouru planets like our earth rar, or are they common? is there life elsewhere in the universe? one of the reasons i study mars among all solar system planets it is a lynch pen to an answering these questions different states of our earth like of earth-like worlds in our solar system are recorded on earth, venice, and mars. but what is special about mars
is that there's a vast rock record that spans the interactions of the planet, atmosphere climate that record what makes the planet habitable over its first billion years. i draw the sub committee's attention to the mars architecture strategy working group report from november that goesli far more deeply than i cn on five minutes reviewing findings of program reaffirming priority of sample return and identifying how to move forward in next decade about interaction between science exploration human exploration and growing commercial space sector because as was mentioned an exciting time right nowet at mars 11 operating space kaft from five different agencies so what is perseverance doing, perseverance is a past mission and first ambitious three mission sequence to return samples to earth we have accomplished a number of our technology goals but what nremains is the study the region's history, climate, look for signs of life we angt as a
robot geologist but i want to move to my slides that i have. because we have a wealth of data from mars exploration program and if we go ahead to move on to the first -- time stamp i can talk about why this is important and what we have learned and what we will learn. what i'm showing is map of mars because mars today is a cold dry desert like the antarctic dry valley two of exploration has thousands of outcrop and rock across the surface everywhere is al colored dot on this image it is a mineral that form in presence of water. someec clay minerals look you fm in soils, some from aqua and some salt now per thousands of places to explore but we have gotten to a handful of them so far. you can see the perseverance rover side and concentration of these exciting rocket outcrocks to the basin if we zoom in to
where we have chosen to go with this mars 2020 rover on the next side, what we see here is -- beautiful 45 kilometer crater. i hope if you look to the particularly to the left of the crater what is exciting is that there is a landscape of four billion-year-old rocks particularly in the lower left you can see a series of rock mesas in outcrops plaining off historical mars for us to drive through and indeed white dot is where we are right now on mars. the white line is a traverse that we hope to undertake over next two years. .... line is a traverse that we hope to undertake over the next two years. in jezero crater, it's a bit special. to the east is an outflow channel where water once drained out. to the north and the west there's an inflow channel that once drained in. this is where jezero crater once
had a lake. if we zoom in to false color infrared data from one of the orbiters, the orbiter.sance the yellows and purples are volcanic forms minerals. the greens are clay and carbonate. click andow carbonate rocks watr form. if you're on earth you would go to them to find the fossils. if the go to the next slide it highlights just amazing coordinator exploration mapping are -- speeding perseverance land. this landform worked for 20 years to find as a target of our exploration. i'll end with a final graphic, which is hot off the presses from the mass cam instrument. reallyhe i hope reveals a tantalizing detail of what's to come. you can see the sands and the rocks of our landing site. the distant crater rim ten kilometers away that we will
eventually climb out on but not before exploring these sediments and deposits ahead of us. we've got to make the first decisionme about how to drive through it. as we finish off your you see the maces of the delta coming into view, those rocks that record the history of the lake. will drive up to them with our instruments, sample them to select the best ones to bring back to earth. ii look forward to reporting on our findings in the years to come.. >> dr. ehlmann, thank you very much. those look just like mounds. doctor beagle, the floor is yours. agle, the floor is yours. >> chairman beyer, ranking member babin, members of the subcommittee, i'm happy to be here to discuss the mars
perseverance mission. perseverance touched down on mars jezero crater. about 3.5 billion years ago, it was the site of an ancient lake. perseverance had landed, in fact, right in front of what was once a river delta. concentrate biologic activity and known to be affluent resources of molecules. we have high hopes with what this location may hold for science. all evidence posed to mars with rivers, lakes and a large ocean filling this atmosphere. water also flowed across the surface of mars. we believe many of the same conditions we think would be required for life on earth were present on mars at this time, chemical energy sources and access to organic carbon. on earth, many things have changed since life began a billion years ago. largely been erased by weather, erosion and tectonic plates.
less affected by these other processes. mars is a much better preserved ancient rock record. rocks could preserve key evidence of planetary formation, clues to its inhabitability and clues of microscopic life. payload has seven instruments that will analyze samples for future return to earth. i'm the principle investigator for an instrument called sherlock, scanning habitable environments luminescence, to search for clues and relevant environment on mars. starting soon, sherlock will work to identify inhabitable environments. characterization and spacial material within martian outcrops, bio signatures in the martian surface and near subsurface by combining
microscopic two microscopic cameras, auto focus or aci and the wide angle topographic sensor for operations and engineering or watson obtain high-resolution images to identify objects smaller than 30 micron. due to highly ultra violet radiation. organic molecules shown by nasa's science laboratory to exist. organic molecules that sherlock can identify or found in life as we know it, but a number of these have been found in meteorites. rather than claiming to have an instrument capable of unambiguous life detection. minerals can also be a form of biosignature.
create signatures that can be observed in astrobiology relevant materials. the presence of such minerals in association with organics can be important component in evaluating whether something may have been produced or brought about through a biologic processes. the mars 2020 mission is designed to collect charactered samples that have high scientific value. these samples are eventually returned to earth, they'll be analyzed by state of the art instruments, which cannot be flown to mars for a variety of reasonsment some of these instruments have not yet been invented. multiple lines of evidence within that sample should be able to get us closer to answering the tantalizing question of whether life existed or exists the next planet out from the sun. i've given many talks at schools focusing on the 2020 mission and sherlock in particular. i usually end those clocks reminding those students that those samples will return to earth in 2030.
and by pursuing a career in science they can help answer the questions we're waiting to answer. all the big questions we'll be answer to answer from these samples. i would be happy to answer any questions you have. >> dr. beegle, thank you very much. our grand finale, dr. bozak, the floor is yours. >> chairman beyer, ranking member babin and members of the subcommittee, thank you so much for inviting us to share our delight with this mission so far. it is really -- it is great just to see you all excited about mars science. because i think we are all excited because we are just at the beginning of a truly exciting time. the landing of the perseverance rover in jezero crater that bethany showed will be able to identify and collect samples of rocks, soils and minerals from
this known location on mars, and the return of the samples to earth is likely to transform planet re evolution, climate, habitability and even the origin of life. this is an ambitious endeavor and one that will inspire the children of today to learn more about science and technology. wh it's ambitious? we are bringing samples back from mars, but not only that, but for the first time, we will really dare to ask the question whether these samples contain something that may have been life. we are looking for life on other planets, and this is a very old question, for millena, in fact, people have wondered if there is life outside of earth and how and when life began. what conditions are necessary to get life started. and so far, earth is the only known planet with life. scientists like myself find the early signs of life in some of the older sedimentary rocks in earth are 3.5 billion years old.
however, if you ask us how life began, we'll start heming and hawing and that's simply because we don't have the answer to that. nobody knows. so, to answer this, some scientists are trying to synthesize and make proto cells in test tubes. other scientists look at old rocks on earth. few preserved rocks on earth are old enough to tell us what our planet looked like more than 3.5 billion years ago. this is where mars comes in. it has an amazing history. mars 2020 mission will collect more than 30 pencil-size samples of rocks and soils in and outside jezero crater and many of these rocks are older than 3.5 billion years. they attest to a warmer mars that contained liquid water at the surface. if those conditions lasted long enough, they may have supported microbial life. so if we sample these rocks and analyze them on earth, we really can open the window into a time
that we currently know little about. so, the samples from mars have to be returned to earth to be analyzed. we heard that already from michael and luther. the analysis to look for life in rocks, one needs to cut them, make thin slices to look through them, use the best microscopes because we are looking for microbial life. we also need other types of instruments to characterized the organic molecules that may be present and all sorts of other chemicals even to tell exactly how old those rocks are. we need different types of instruments. we simply cannot miniaturize all of that and fit that many instruments in a single rover. once the samples come back, scientists were analyze them for decades, just like they're still doing with the rocks brought back from the moon by apollo. this was more than 50 years ago. the analysis of martian samples will determine how and when different rocks formed, altered
by water, how and when the climate on mars changed and how to best prepare for human exploration of mars. some of the rocks might even contain organic matter or remains of former microbial cells. so, all in all, the samples brought back from mars have the potential to revolutionalize our understanding of whether life was ever present on mars. even if you don't find life -- i get this question a lot. so what if you don't find life? by looking at samples from early mars, we can always learn a lot more about organic molecules and processes that preceded life on earth because of the age of the samples. and some of the findings that arise from the samples may even challenge our current interpretations of what life is or how to detect it. a lot of the findings, approximate not all the findings, will also inspire future migs to mars.
since perseverance landed, i've talked to hundreds of people through radio shows and to schools, and i've received dozens of emails from random people from all over the world and all walks of life. what these emails and personal communication has shown me is that mars exploration inspires people to engage with science and technology, because it resonates with people's inner curiosity about themselves and our own place in the universe. and that curiosity, in turn, inspires us to do more. so i will be happy to answer any of the questions you may have. >> thank you, dr. bosak, very much. fascinating open comments. i'll recognize myself for five minutes for questions. dr. bosak, i'm going to come right back to you. you are our geo -- geo whatever. >> geo whatever. >> geo whatever. is the geology on mars as varied
as it is on earth in terms of the elements themselves, potassium, carbon, zinc? basically are the building blocks there as they would be on earth? >> mars is a rock planet. this is one of the reasons we're so fascinated by it. it is so close to earth. it is really the closest planet to earth. it does consist -- because it's rock, these rocks are the source of all the elements we need of -- well acres lot of the elements such as iron, calcium, all the stuff that goes into bones and so on. so, mars has all of that. the question of organics is a very interesting one. carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, because rocky planets get these elements probably -- water as well later in their history, still really, really early in the big scheme of thoo things, but later in the history, and we think a lot of that material came from asteroids and comets, so from elsewhere in the solar
system. by looking at these old rocks from mars, this is one of the actually aspects of the mission and the return samples that is most exciting to me. we can start asking how much was taking place? what is is this background delivery of the compounds that are needed for life to rocky planets. >> thank you very much. dr. meyer, you've been a specialist in astrobiology. dr. bosak earlier talked about life evolving, trying to understand, was the organic soup ever there, how are limited understanding of how life began on earth, could those conditions have been on mars also? >> that's actually one of the big questions. we think so, and that's half the reason why we're looking, but in all honesty, there's three major theories about how life got started on this planet, and we don't have very good evidence to point one way or the other.
and as tanja talked about, rocks on mars, over 50% of the rocks on the surface are ancient. and here on earth, they're few and far between and have been worked over. so evidence of exactly what was going on in the first billion years of planet history, we don't have a very good record on earth. we think the record is on mars. whether or not we had the organic soup and lightning to cause life, these are things that going to mars can help us sort out. >> thank you very much. dr. ehlmann, as our planetary scientist, we saw elon musk last week talk about forming mars. is there enough water there to justify that? can you see transforming the mars environment sufficient for
human life? >> well, i will say that the premise is correct in that mars is the closest potentially habitable world, right? it is really the only one that has an atmosphere today as well as abundant water resources. we know right now they're in solid ice. so the question is, does the ice melt naturally? that's a question perseverance won't answer yet, is there modern life that could be associated with this ice? i think i would like to actually answer that before we send humans, but regardless, terra forming mars would be hard. i'm a planetary scientist but geologist by training. to make a planetary atmosphere thick for humans to breathe, you have to figure out some way to produce oxygen. you have to figure out some way to thicken the atmosphere so it's warm enough. and on mars, lots of the water and the carbon dioxide are
actually trapped in rocks. so it's hard to release. i would love to send humans to mars to explore. changing the whole planetary climate, maybe not so much. >> yeah. i love the optimism. is there enough gravity there to hold an atmosphere? >> there is and mars has an atmosphere today. it's a little less than one percent of the earth's atmosphere. it's 96% car upon dioxide, but very, very, very thin. >> thank you. dr. beegle, quickly, do we have enough talent in the pipeline? we worry so much about stem education and the like. >> we do. we have some very -- i look at the graduate students working on perseverance and there's some outstanding talent coming up and even more on way as we continue to push people in -- not push people but inspire people to go into science and technology.
we have a great pool to draw from. >> very encouraging to hear. let me now recognize my friend, dr. babin, for his five minutes of questions. >> absolutely fascinating. i just want to thank all four of you for being here, giving us your testimony, and mr. chairman, thank you for having this. i guess my first question would be for dr. bosak. i proudly represent the johnson space center here in houston, where many brilliant, hard-working government employees and contractors also work here. jsc is at the center, presently charged with curation of extra terrestrial samples and is home to the curation office. jsc has experience cure ating samples from apollo moon sample s, cosmic dust, and other missions and will process samples from the osires rex
mission. mars perseverance mission is gathering and storing samples for an eventual mars sample return mission. fascinating, which is still in the planning phase. from your perspective as the co-lead on return sample science for the perseverance rover mission, does nasa plain to store and cureate mars samples at johnson? and the unique capabilities that jsc possesses? because i would like to do everything that i possibly can to eliminate whatever impediments those might be. >> unfortunately, i am not -- well not unfortunately. we are really responsible, the team of mars 2020 mission, perseverance rover mission is responsible for recognizing, identifying and collecting the best samples. and the plans for curation,
storage, later allocation, are all under development by the mars sample return program. so i think the points are being developed not by necessarily the members, team members of mars 2020. i think michael can speak more to that. >> okay. dr. meyer, can you speak to that? >> yeah. i mean, johnson is long recognized for their expertise in astro materials and i think they do a fantastic job. and we are targeting johnson to be the implementation lead for the samples that come back from mars. where the facility is actually located hasn't been determined yet. and part of that is just what other factors are coming into play. as an example, right now we're on an international group competitively selected, trying to work out what the requirements are for the facility. as you know, be the mars samples are unique and they have some challenges not only in keeping
them pristine and doing the best science you can on them, but also keeping them contained while you're trying to do the science, at least initially. and so we're going to -- you know, we would like to open that up and have -- when we figure it out, really what the requirements are and what our capabilities are in terms of the facility that we can do, johnson will lead that effort in terms of determining where the actual facility is. >> okay. thank you. and i guess your testimony also highlights how perseverance is paving the way for future crude migs to ma missions to mars with terrain navigation you have mentioned. can you speak to how terrain navigation will also assist future migs to the moon and how it could be incorporated into human landers? >> yeah. most certainly, the issue with particularly with mars and the moon is that there's a time delay between when something
happens and when people on earth actually get to see it. so, when you're trying to pick precise landing, you want to land next to the equipment you left, that you put there for your left and put there for your humans to go to, or resources that are available, you need terrain landing and we can do it autonomously. for that we know we can put things on the surface of another planetary body and put humans right next to them so they can use them. >> thank you very much. now for dr. beagle, is the perseverance rover looking for ancient life or present life, and is it looking for ancient life because nasa doesn't believe that mars is capable of
harboring life anymore, understanding may be a little bias, how should this information play into considerations of whether to continue exploring mars or focus on venus, titan or other celestial bodies? >> we are looking for ancient life because we don't believe that mars is inhabitable today, and mars is the most earth-like planet, and if we find signs of life we can tie it back to what started life on the earth, and if it had different origins of life if it started at all. if we can find it if it was there, we don't expect any present life to be present. >> if i could briefly add.
i wanted to emphasize, it's the upper centimeters that are not inhabitable, and if you get lower you could be near ice or water, so that's the place to look on mars. >> i didn't get a chance to ask you a question, but thank you for that answer. i will have to yield back, mr. chairman. thank you. >> dr. babbitt, i think we will do at least a second round, because our curiosity is large. with that i would love to introduce the greatest enthusiast in congress. >> doctor, your comment about the enthusiasm of people
reaching out to you, i chair a different committee on financial services, the banking sub committee and i was getting interviewed by "the wall street journal" just as perseverance was landing a month or two ago, whenever it was, and i couldn't talk about banking, all i could talk about with this guy from "the wall street journal" was the perseverance landing because i was so excited about it. i am excited about the efforts and the successes that you had so far, and dr. babbitt, i mean, a lot of times you can't have success without a few trials and errors, and we have had those, too, but this one seems to be -- each time you try something, ingenuity, it took reprogramming a little bit before it could take off, and you know, the cameras, dr. beagle, seemed to be working fantastic, and we
have not tried the drilling yet, i don't think, but you are taking these one step at a time. i want to talk about moxi and ingenuity, if i could. explain to me the process, what is going on with moxie as we're figuring out how to create oxygen on this planet, which will benefit us in many different ways. i just open all of these questions to all the panelists. so jump in as you choose. dr. beagle. >> i can explain what is going on with moxie, and moxie did a run the other night, and they took the co2 out of the atmosphere and turned it into oxygen that could be breathable or used for rocket fuel, and they created enough that you could breathe on mars for ten minutes. which doesn't sound like a lot, but it really is, it's the start
of the whole process and it's a fascinating instrument. >> anybody else want to talk about moxie? then we will get to ingenuity. >> if it's okay, what i would like to mention is the way it does, it splits the molecule so strips the two oxygens off the carbon, and that's how it's generating oxygen. it's a neat process, and it takes the catalytic converter, and it's a test, and the volume depends on how big you want to use. >> the old catalytic converter. that's amazing. dr. meyer, do you see this as a precursor of some kind of bigger system that would enable -- so i am a big proponent of human space exploration and hope to see our astronauts on mars by
2033, and i wish i had my bumper sticker for you, but i don't. do you see this as something that we could put together to really provide oxygen for our astronauts or fuel, so you know, a massive kind of approach to this? >> so how we see the real advantage is you can put a system like moxie under the surface of mars and have it operating for years and then send humans or send your return spacecraft and you can make use of the oxygen that has been generated. one thing to keep in mind is rocket fuel is an oxidant and redundant, and then it's something like methane, and then oxygen. this goes a long way with getting to the surface of mars and something you can return in, and if you make most of the mass of the fuel on the planet
itself, it's a huge advantage. >> great. to the geologists, how are you going to use ingenuity to help you explore a little bit of the geology up here? >> i will start and hand it over to professor brozac. i think that's part of the reason we explore and the reason the u.s. space program is outstanding, we plan to do audacious things, like flying a helicopter on another planet, and wow, it worked, and we are hoping to get a closer view than what we have from orbit, and what we hope is it paves the ways for future technologies, and there are folks saying what
if instead of a little camera, could we put more on there so we could fly spot to spot and taking measurements. >> thank you very much. my time is expired. mr. chairman, i love this stuff. i yield back. >> that is obvious, congressman. we are all so fortunate. i now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, congressman frank lewis. >> this committee has already permitted a balanced portfolio at nasa, and we have worked hard for the informed committees, and our committee has been supportive of planetary science missions throughout the solar system, and given the number of mars missions in the last
decade, how would you recommend we balance the science portfolio is future years? if anybody is willing to touch that, i am happy to listen. >> sure, i will touch the hot wire. scientists we need to get together and prioritize our science and communicate those messages to congress, to the president, and so we're in the process of doing that right now through the national academy's process, so over the last year, year and a half, we have been trying to hash out that question, what is the right balance between outer solar system, inner solar system, and big missions and small missions, and we need a program because mars is an enormous investment, and it pays back in proving how we can go and come and bring
back, and the science return will be amazing. we need to have that balance and we -- i can say the planetary survey looks forward to communicating to congress its relative prioritizations. >> absolutely. >> i'll also add that we do other missions as well, and so there's a balance and there's the balance, and i think most people in the community think there's a decent balance. >> i would just like to add one thought, if that's okay. it's balancing the science of planetary sciences not necessarily equal number of targets in terms of missions,
and in some ways mars has an advantage because of the amount of information we can learn from exploring mars, and let's say the not so long time to get there and get the information back, so it has a little bit of an advantage, so i don't feel so bad that we have had so many missions to mars because they have really returned fantastic amounts of data, and we will sort out. >> absolutely. perseverance will help in the future exploration of the moon and mars, and -- again, i am trying to help mr. probottle.
>> i will take a quick crack at that and hopefully my other fellow witnesses will chime in. but there are things that will really help human exploration that we have not demonstrated yet, and that's for instance, rendezvousing in space with your spacecraft, testing out operations, so one of the challenges are -- i used to do field work and there's a world of difference between doing something where you're three days away from help, like a hospital or food sources compared to multiple years. so i think one of the key parts of gateway and the art phus program is, in fact, testing out your operations and your housing for the astronauts to be reliable on the long term.
>> i would also add that there's an aspect of autonomy we don't talk about a lot, and one is the rover drives itself and the rover can figure out what its basic mechanical state is, and that helps in human spacecraft because you will have the human rovers and equipment and things like that and really will understand how well it's functioning, whether or not it's about to break down, which is something really valuable for human missions. >> my time is expired. i wish to thank the panel for those insights and yield back to the chairman. >> thank you, congressman lucas. i recognize the congressman on
education. >> the people who are on this call, you can see the smiles because you can see the passion, and as a young man, the mercury, the gemini, and i had no idea what i was looking at but it's sort of a driving force that keeps me and so many involved because it's about what we are learning. i want to talk about if you google private space you will get 25 different companies. i sort of split those into two categories, those facilitating different components whether it's the rocket or instruments, and the other side of that is private investment into space. what do you think drives the private investment into the future -- i would assume this is way in the future, to either
mars, to an astroid of others, what will drive them that there's a payback? when do you think that would happen? i know it's a wide open question, at some point you do all the work and then somebody comes in and takes the profit out of it, so when do you think that enters and where do you think it would be? that's for all three. >> i guess i will start us off. so there's, you know, private industry has always played a huge part, so many of the procurements for our instruments are from private companies and so it's a big role and what you are poking at is the role seems to be changing a little bit, and it's driven by lower launch costs and companies are competing in that arena, just lowering the cost of access, and then commercial technology in orbit, there are many more
entrances into the field, small companies, more companies, and so i think the motivation is largely profit, and we see a market in place, and we need to enable more exploration and activity. it's happening at the moon with the commercial lunar space flight program, the eclipse program, and can it be extended to mars if we, for example, regularize the infrastructure contracts, and so we have to think about what is the right role and what is the right contracting vehicles to have shared risk, for example, in some of the development and how do we incentivize. people want to go just to go, right, and elon musk is an example. >> if i could, just so sort of narrow the focus. i understand plenty of us have been getting things out there,
spacex, the list goes on, and moving beyond what we already know is a commercial space around our planet, the moon, mars or others, what is going to drive them into that next spot? you know, how long will we get private investment around their own planet from where we started from this planet, right? 40 years. what would drive them to go to the moon or back to mars? what do you see as a reason for them to go there? >> well, i will say -- well, i will just say real quick that there's a cadre of companies looking into astroid mining and that's something that seems to be picking up speed, so that would be the first commercial aspect of a return on investment
that could be potentially made one day, and beyond that -- i will defer to dr. meyer. >> well, i am certainly not the expect and this is highly speculative, but i remember hearing a talk about 15 years ago at a committee on space research assembly, and essentially the person said we will be at mars with humans sustainablely when you are able to do it for tourism, and when i heard that i thought the person was nuts, but then the more i thought about it, and the more i had to answer my cell phone, the more i thought, what a great pleasure to be when you get someplace where you are so far away where you can't have regular conversations with everybody else that wants to talk to you, and you can actually take a vacation and be someplace entirely exotic for an extended period of time, and it makes more sense to me now.
>> can i suggest a trip to mars? >> we will ask for a ranking member for permission to schedule that. and i recognize the congressman from cape canaveral. >> thank you, chairman, and this is a very interesting hearing. dr. meyer, you mentioned just getting the craft to launch during the pandemic was no easy feat. can you describe some of the challenges that covid-19 posed to launch you on time at nasa and how you were able to work together to overcome those
challenges? >> yeah, i mean, this is something that only being able to talk for five minutes in the beginning was something that i was not able to delve into, so thank you for the question. i think it was a heroic effort, and just getting the spacecraft on time to meet the planetary window, that's a huge window. as we know in the past, we don't always make it. this time, having covid show up, you know, basically in the middle of what is called assembly testing and launch operations, it was tremendous. so one of the things that really struck me was the whole operation team down in florida had to basically form their own covid bubble. so they had to be with each other all the time, which maybe was not necessarily a bad thing, but they had to self isolate in
preparation in going to florida, and while they were at florida, and then how did you do some of the rotation. it was an extreme challenge because that was the only way that you could actually get together and work on the equipment you have to stoned another planet, otherwise you can't do it all by zoom. >> great answer. in your conclusion, the program continues to lead the word and that allows us to delve even deeper -- and with this being the ninth mission to have a spacecraft land on mars, what are some of the secrets that might be helpful -- >> well, this is a public meeting, do you want me to reveal those secrets? >> no, i mean, what do people
hope to find on the best view of things of how what we could discover? >> you mean what we could find on mars, or sort of the -- how have we been successful? i'm kind of -- >> yeah, you mentioned, as we delve deeper into the secrecy of the red planet, the mission, what might we be looking forward to finding out more on mars? >> yeah, okay, so as was mentioned, mars was similar to earth and some aspects to it that i think are fascinating, one of them is it has gone through huge transformations in its climate, and this happens on multiple time scales, and the record is what the planet actually did, it's there, and so
in some ways we can look at those rocks and determine, well, what happens when you increase the atmospheric pressure by twice as much or ten times as much, or even as much as earth. you can look at how -- how the tilt of the planet has varied the climate, and it helps to you test your climate models on another planet, where the planet itself has done the testing for you and done the experiments, and then you get a better idea of how a planet behaves with the atmosphere when conditions change. it's kind of simple in terms of for instance, on earth, when we are increasing the co2 on our own atmosphere, mars has examples of extreme variability, and it will give us a better
idea of going back and forth. and we had this already, and never should be forgotten, if life got started on mars there are still places that we think life could be there today, and it's going to be a real challenge, and we think about the deep sub surface, we think there's potentially occupiers, and that's our goal in looking for life on mars. >> that's super interesting, and i thank you for explaining that to us. i see my time is expired, so i yield back, mr. chairman. >> thank you very much. i recognize the gentleman from florida, governor crist. >> hello, mr. chairman. how are you today? >> excellent. >> great. great. is it my turn?
i'm sorry. i couldn't hear you for a minute. >> yes, it's your turn. >> thank you so much. i want to thank the witnesses for being with us today. dr. bozak, can you discuss what we are trying to find on mars, and how you will know definitively if life does exist on mars? >> yes, so we're looking for past life. we are looking for life as it may have looked like 3.5 billion years ago or every earlier, so we are not looking for current life. >> you're looking for dead life, is that what you are saying? >> exactly. we are looking for fossils, fingerprints of some fossil life. i can actually show you some examples of rocks that would tell me just based on their shapes that there must have been some life there, and that's probably the holy grail of what
we could hope for by this mission, just to see something in the field, but because we are looking for life from everything that we know about life would be microkroeb annual. we will have to bring life back, and we will have to look at it with an instrument, and they could see just a cell, so it's microscopic, and then somebody will say, yes, i see organic carbon, and then another team will look at the same thing and say we see concentrations that go with usually living carbon and organisms, and then we will have a team that looks at that and says it could be oil
bubbles, or some astroid delivers a lot of material, and so there's a lot of tests that will have to go through that because it's an extraordinary claim, and before we make those kinds of announcements we will have to make as certain based on the knowledge of the time that this could be life. >> wonderful. thank you. >> the rock record on mars extends much further back in time than what is preserved here on earth. based on what we know of mars right now, do you think it's possible we could find signs of life on mars that are older than the first signs of life on earth? >> that's actually a great question. the oldest life that people sort of agree upon on earth and the fossil record is 3.5 billion years old. there are hints of earlier life, maybe as far as 3.8, but the
problem with our earth, is one, we have tetonic plates that mess up the textures, and new earth life eats organics from old life, so our life itself is destroying the past life on earth, and so i do think it's possible. it looks like all the conditions existed on mars 3.5 million years ago to create inhabitable environments and the record is more pristine though, and we have hydrothermal systems all of which are different types of life. >> we hear about liquid water,
and other signs for life to have existed, and what are some of the other signs as we know it for life existing on other planets? >> yeah, it's broader than water, because with water at least we find it consistent and we don't have to argue about it with life on earth, and we don't have to look at what the potential for life is in our solar system. there are things that should also be there. carbon hydrogen, sulphur, that's what everything that is alive on earth is made out of, so you would hope you would have those. you probably want certificate compounds and maybe trace elements because they are important for enzymes to work and that sort of thing. and the other thing is, in fact, energy, and that could be a more challenging one to look for extra extraterrestrial life,
because if you don't have enough, you can't do anything. if you have too much the energy is too much and destroys what complexity is libel to evolve. so those other things are other things to look for, and in fact, one of the great things curiosity did within the first year of its mission, it found everything that we could think of that are required for life, and that's why we can now say, yes, mars could have supported life if life got started there because it has all the agreement. >> thank you, doctor, and i will yield back my time. >> thank you. we are going to move to a second round, but i understand if members have to go off to other things. let me begin, and thank you, dr. babbitt, for cochairing this
with me. first i want to apologize for having andy weir appear on the space committee before you, and we packed the room with press, but anyway. on sample return, and maybe this is a question for dr. beagle. >> we can retrieve it in the meantime. there's a series of missions that are proposed that dr. meyer could talk more about that, that will go and pick up the samples we are collecting and bring it back in the 2030 timeframe. that could be done robotically. >> so 2030, and a couple years ahead of the schedule for the probe of space life?
>> yes. >> let me ask another question for you guys. of the four of you, and i rarely ask a for the whole panel question, but i would love to know where each of you are on your belief that there is other life in the universe, that life seems to be so unique and consciousness is itself so unique. dr. bozak, can i start with you? >> certainly. i will tell you, my favorite science fiction book is "master's voice," and it's brilliant and it's not so much about whether there's life but the peoples' need to look for sign of life and interpret signals and keep interpreting signals, and the book is about the whole field of science and
they are arguing about whether a signal is a signal at all. i think this consciousness that makes us unique, i think the search makes us unique. it makes us something bigger than, you know, microbes converting energy to live, but then if i think about life -- i am a microbiologists, really, so i think of life as mostly microbes, and that doesn't have too much consciousness, yet it can be easily spread. even the ancient greeks talked about what could travel from stars to other planets, and this is what is cool about this mission and the sample return, because we can test some of that. there's a strong idea that life could have started on mars and was transferred to earth early on, and we can look at samples
and see how similar, if anything we find, how similar it is. >> thank you for the book recommendation to begin with. >> it's great. >> dr. heldman, is there other life ol mars? >> yeah, i think there is, and i think many people think it would be strange that the fastness in the university with billions of stars each with many planets, we are the only ones. but i agree that it's the search that matters, and it's the search that is inspiring. even thinking about our own solar system, and the question was asked about the portfolio of exploration and balance, and we have the capability of looking for life on mars, on venus, and we should do it because this is an inspiring journey that really will inspire the whole country to do hard things, and let's
start the questions -- the life questions in our own solar system where we can access the planets while we keep using telescopes to look beyond. >> dr. meyer, since you call yourself an astro biologists, that may be implicit in your title, what do you think? >> that's a big yes. there's like 100 billion stars in a galaxy, and 100 billion galaxies. it would be absolutely amazing and hard to believe if there was not life out in the universe. the real question is how common is it? if it's on the other side of the universe, how likely it is that you would ever find it or notice it. the real question is
commonology. we are the first generation of people on the planet that can do experiments, can go and look and answer the question how common life is in the universe? >> that's very cool. i will use my extraordinary powers of chair to let myself go over, because i want to hear dr. beagle's ideas, also? >> i agree that life is -- the odds of life not existing elsewhere in the universe are very slim, and the question we asks ourselves, is there more than just single celled organisms. it took appear long time on earth, and that's the question we continue to ask and ponder, which is a much more difficult question because it involves understanding the evolution of life on other planets where you have no idea what the conditions are like, and that's the question that we are really trying to sink our teeth into.
>> thank you very much for that. i ask this because my favorite recent book is "the mathematical universe," and it finishes with the argument against life being on mars. i would like to re-create the congressman from denver for more questions. >> thanks, mr. chair. he sent me that book and it's a pretty heavy math book. he's trying to educate us as part of this sub committee. so let me start with you when i was talking to dr. elman about ingenuity, and she said it was
an audacious addition to the project, and so how for the others, how do you get your experiments, once you decide we will send another rover up to mars, how does she get her experiment on the trip? let me start with you, and then i would like to hear their side of how they get to their experiments as part of the whole process? >> well, it's quite a gauntlet in terms of what is needed. as we have done for curiosity and we also did for perseverance, we put a call-out >> send us proposals and we'll see how it fits together and it's very much open competition for people to propose whatever things is applicable to the
goal. very rigorous competition. it's actually very hard to go through the whole process and then you have to choose -- you have to narrow it down to those things that will fit on the mission from all the excellent proposals that you receive. and then there's a little bit of a give and take where you don't want to sen two of the same instrument. you want to make sure they complement eep other and make sure one instrument doesn't use all the resources on the mission. that they fit together. the real process, it is individuals, obviously, experience and having a whole team behind them proposing what they think would be the best instrument and then the whole process to select that and that's been extremely successful so far. >> great. doctor, how did you get involved with this project? >> i answered one of these proposal calls. when all the instruments
already had been selected and ready to get on the rover, there was a proposal call for the program to look at participating scientists and looking for people who work on samples in laboratories because they wanted to ensure that people think about how to collect the sample, and there's a diverse team of us who were selected so we wrote proposals what to do with the samples and how we would take knots to document and why we selected certain samples. great. doctor, how did sherlock become part of this? >> it's a pretty simple process. back in the mid 90's we started thinking about ideas how to send something to mars to look for life, we write a proposal, you write another proposal. you have to go in and do the scientific rationale.
>> and a lot of instruments fail in one of those two things because it's an environment scientifically who make a measurement and it's a very complex environment from a treasure, pressure radiation and everything else that you have to show vibration, and you have to get your technology to work. you write a bunch of proposals and write papers and you get scientific buy-in and in 2012 we knew there would be an opportunity. we submitted the proposal and they accepted and there were 58 different concepts that went into that call and we were one of seven that got selected and then the fun really begins and we have to build the instrument the size of the room down to the size of a shoe box and show that it works. and it's a fun process. >> well, it sounds, starting in the 90's, sounds like you were able to perfect it over a period of time. so, thank you. doctor, what go you?
>> i get to talk about something that people don't always talk about, which is the failure aspects of the programs, not failures, but i'm a part of a team and jim bell at arizona state, part of thinks team and i also led a team and proposed an instrument to the rover, we ranked as high as we could rank, in the end we weren't selected and the reason, balance and, we compete and do that simultaneously and that's why it's at the forefront. i've been through this before, and a principal invest of a small satellite that is going to the moon and it's a process. and sometimes you win and sometimes you don't and you bring the best science and missions to light.
>> thank you, i yield back, mr. chair. >> thank you so much, i love serving on this committee with you. >> and this brings our hearing to a close, but i do have one final question, and after mars, europa? what do you think? >> europa for sure. europa mission, and venus, all sorts of good things. >> but europa we could actually land on, right? and water? >> one of the missions, i think, the next mission to actually look for life as the doctor pointed out earlier is drilling, get underneath the surface of mars and/or europa the protected environment where there's liquid water on europa
and where there might be ak if aquifers on mars and that's one thing i would be an advocate for. >> and since the folks from gravitational waves came and spoke to us, and fun, we'll look forward to the process you're going to make not just on mars, but for humanity because you inspire everything else that we do so we're very, very grateful of the let me finish with the official closing before we bring this hearing to a close, i want to thank the witnesses of course, the record will remain open for two weeks for additional statements from the members and any additional questions the committee may ask of the witnesses. with that, you're confused. the hearing is now adjourned and thank you very much. >> saturday, on the communicators, brookings
institution vice-president taylor west discusses his book turning point. policy making in the era of artificial intelligence. >> it's not just one taking place, it's 10, 20, 30 different things taking place simultaneously. it's the growing in the national defense, we have a long chapter on national defense and military applications of ai. so, i think that that is the unusual aspect of this period and what makes it difficult to deal with. it's like there's just so much change taking place on a widespread scale in a very short period of time and we're all struggling to deal with it. >> darryl west, saturday at 6:30 p.m. eastern on the communicators on c-span.