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tv   Alec Mac Gillis Fulfillment  CSPAN  April 17, 2021 3:30pm-4:30pm EDT

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at the age of 90 to bring the former business executive assistant secretary of education the kennedy administration was best known for his 1980 book megatrend which offer predictions on economic and social changes, sold over 14 million copies worldwide. book tv will continue to bring new programs and publishing news print also washed all of our past programs anytime @booktv.org. >> 1937 with a billion dollars under paid its workers while forcing them 2ingage in repetitive and sometimes dangerous assembly-line labor. the market capitalization of amazon.com succeeded $1 trillion of our economy and society continue to intensify. mcgill's is a reporter covering politics and government are recorded previously for the "washington post", baltimore so the new republic and has appeared in
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the near times magazine the near, atlanta, harpers and other publications. as was three awards including 2016 for political reported that 2017 award for national reporting. for public reporting on dayton ohio was the basis of the 2018 pbs documentary entitled left behind america about the economic and social forgers leaving the once thriving belt city in ruins for author the author of the x biography of mitch mcconnell entitled the interior regard of the senate is called the cynic. i'm sorry i should not be cracking jokes and time for that. as he hired francis keller professor of history at the university of washington and contribute in opinion writer. her research focuses on the high-tech industry, american politics she's author of several books including the code silicon valley and the remaking of america. financial times on publishers weekly best book of that year
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you never call seeing her interview with townhall on september. grateful she's returned tonight's talk with alice mcgill asked his latest book fulfillment. winning and losing one click america. please join me in welcoming them. >> thank you so much. welcome to seattle, alec. you are actually three hours ahead in a time zone. the first of all things are partying with this late-night ncm. it's really great to have you here. one week since the book came out in a really fantastic book it is. and so what i want to do is open up and ask you why you wrote it? tells a bit about what you're trying to say with this book? let me say first of all thank you to townhall for having this event. i really wish i could be there. this book is about places in
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america. it be great if i could be in these places talk about the book. but this is certainly much better than nothing i'm grateful for that. thank you to you margaret for moderating this great authority on the >>. it is really helpful. when i set out to do the book is not a book by amazon. it was a book about regional and growing gaps on places in america. and traveling around the country as a national political reporter starting in the obama years the 2008 election. an early administration. i'd be out in the midwest with the great recession and come back to washington to blown away again by the incredible prosperity on display there
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and disconnect with what was going on around the country. i had previous expense with this. i grew up in a small city has been devastated by the departure of ge in massachusetts. watching it fall so far behind metro boston as it spiraled into its own kind of prosperity. and ended up moving back to baltimore eight years ago. that gap between washington and baltimore the two cities 40 miles apart that been growing so wide apart and prosperity in their prospects. it's credibly unhealthy ballots with the winner take all both take major problems as a result of this i want to write about this trump got elected at that and i really need to write about it because it clearly played a role in
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trump spray spent the next year trying to figure out how to write about these disparities i finally settled on amazon for two reasons. the company is so ubiquitous everywhere to show american how we live the handy frame date driver of this regional it and the other tech giants have contributed greatly to this concentration of wealth original concentration of wealth is closely tied to whole sectors of our economy. it worked in both ways as a frame. how we said allen's three years ago in here we are.
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>> your book's got some really wonderful reviews very well barb you did all the major outlets. i really appreciate there's a really when the l.a. times last week. which did say effectively threaten a horror story. [laughter] was very complementary. and that is amazon. another product of baltimore the wire is a series of human stories change the political economy in a system of winners and losers and how institutions have failed, whole groups of people. so tell me how you found your people in kind of come about some of the people in this book. tell us sort of why they are
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good vehicles for understanding what is going on in the united states right now. make sure. to keep going as we'll find the people in society and places. i wanted to have certain cities there were hyper prosperous cities that were struggling with the prosperity than left behind in town is very clear what my cities was going to be cl is clear from the outset. the city had been utterly transformed by the company. and i knew i wanted to write about washington d.c. because it was also to me and very classic example i wanted to write about the baltimore divide and i went to pick pc from a city even though amazon did worked up very nicely. baltimore no wanted to write about because i live here and i've seen this up close.
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spent a lot of time in ohio dayton and sort of rural southeast ohio go very much in the book as well as left behind. when it came to the characters , as more people encountered in my reporting there are fascinating people and i wanted to write about them. i knew they had a story to tell. and in some cases that connection to amazon was pretty close like the young man in dayton ohio made cardboard boxes to support amazon. he is in there. the story is his dour mobility has dayton's. some pieces that connection was little more distant. a young man in southeast ohio worked at texas roadhouse as a waiter and trying to save his rural town was another person.
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in the case of seattle, i knew early on that it wanted to write about the central district and what it happened in the central district. i feel that's a story a lot of people outside seattle are not aware of that the city had such incredibly vibrant black community. when we hear a lot about black displacement in d.c. and somewhat in san francisco. but register last in seattle. so i wanted to write about that community and what happened to it. that meant with a whole bunch of members of the community, one of my early visit to seattle, and then decided to focus on pastor right such a compelling person. her story of choir and not just the choir but her expressiveness about her sadness what's happened to the
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central district to me. and so another main character in seattle is katie wilson. i kind of came to her later as a character. a new knothole tax between 2018 happened to be out of the very week the vote to repeal the tax happened. was all very well-timed and traumatic. i met katie at city hall that day and stayed in touch with her. it was clear among all the activists who were sort of working on that issue on the whole fight to deal with housing problems he homelessness problem that she was both out front in the fight very compelling in her own right. it's very eloquent how she talks about these problems. one other character i will
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just mention in passing led to a union hall looking for people, retirees of the huge still work with by amazon warehouses. i wanted -- hope to find someone whose grandson or granddaughter networks amazon so you could draw the generational there. lo and behold i made a requester union hall and afterward 69-year-old man walked up and says looking for someone who works at amazon? he said yes, i do. so this guy still works come back to work for less than half the pay. in amazon warehouse.
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outside the site in baltimore. >> it's really extraordinary. i think he was my favorite character in the book two. i might want to get back to seattle. first, molière on baltimore, this is a book that you really dive deep into this longer history of what work has meant and what industry has meant. in the steel mill in baltimore that is now the warehouse include amazon warehouses with american capitalism and the way that amazon is now, can you talk a little bit more about what was great about it what was not great about it? sometimes we talk about the newest economy right now the giga economy musical back to the good old days of unionized workforce, tell us more about what you discovered in this
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story you're telling about that? >> are so blown away by what they found. the bash i did not know more about this. more than a dozen years right up the road from this place. the notion of how vast and intensive extraordinary this place was. 3000 workers the biggest steel mill in the entire world. fire 6000 people downtown segregated downtown and all about. it became clear, i never one to apologize or idealize that work, at the outset. but as it began to research how important was. the work was incredibly treacherous, incredibly dangerous. there's injuries and fatalities.
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just the basic conditions the extreme heat, just the constant, constant risk. just the grueling dose of it comes through. by donning himself suffered multiple injuries. at 20 finally left the job after yet another injury. but, what becomes clear to get into the history of things changed over time for it at the in the early 20th century still works was so it's younger years things were incredibly brutal. incredibly low pay no say on the job crazy hours to get to holidays off a year and then of course over time they got organized. the 40s and 50s they finally got organized there.
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dramatically improved across the board. greatly improved benefit condition say on the job safety there's just more say how things are run on the floor. you have big gains actually in the integration of the workforce in the 60s heavily black. major advances the americans increases suffered as things decline. especially steel was very badly managed in the latter decade. it completely vanishes. by 2012 it's gone completely. so creepy your gps still says
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east street it's all gone and so now you have these warehouses. a bunch of others too. i talk about the difference in the work. obviously the warehouse work is physically taxing and wearing. and is not as treacherous as what was experienced at the steel mill because there is no comparison. but, one man and many people like him feel the loss of the work routinely. because as dangerous as it was it paid a lot more, but more importantly it just gave them vastly more sense of purpose and camaraderie and community
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and meaning alike. there is a reason why they allow mostly men to stay there for decades for their whole career. not only because they provided middle class kind of income but also because they felt part of something. i was talking to another retired still worker recently and he still lives right there. after the shifts at the warehouse you see all the guys go the workers men and women go screaming out of their. then to put in big speed bumps. they're desperate to get out of there you've done your shift the $15 hour shift. it's incredibly often very repetitive very isolating kind of work. and you are out of there. back in the day you often rolled out with your crew into the bar or the diner, or whatever.
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he filling a fire going to work for drew going to put out fires you're going to rule steel for that you are part of something. i brought this up to talk about the book again, there was a amazon worker called in and said yes there is no way, no way i'm going to leave work now to go have a beer at joe. i only know who joe is. he is 30 feet away but i do not know who he is. that's what the difference comes down too. that's what i call it the book about dignity. it's about purpose and dignity and meaning in your life. that is what has been lost along with the much lower pay. >> host: so -- amazon is not the only postindustrial big employer. that is certainly gotten a lot of scrutiny and been a disruptive force in redefining
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work. walmart is another example. similar huge workforce very contingent and what ways are the two similar? also in what ways is it different? how do we see this model of the work in amazon fulfillment center different from these other new forms of work? >> i think the difference comes onto couple main things. that have to do with the book's main theme of geography. amazon has massive geographic destructive effects devastation of mainstreet all the small towns, small cities, especially in certain parts of the country.
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just wiping out helping to wipe out communities in that way. it was so disruptive. what amazon has done to the landscape is slightly different. while it is also contributing to further weakening of local retail and local business and the sort of community vibrancy that comes with that, that is been very well documented amazon is having in that way on small businesses. it then has the other effect i read about in the book, it has created, helping to create the winner take all or all of that wealth and business activity is now sucked into in a way that did not really happen with walmart. walmart is in bentonville.
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and up and agitated all of these downtown these last couple decades with the tech giants which is incredible racial inequality in the sorting out of the winner cities and the left behind once. one other difference i will note one important thing to note about walmart it pays a lot more taxes than amazon does because of this physical manifestation, the physical kind of gain the system as
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well through the sort of online loophole for sales taxes. but then also managing to pay any federal income taxes by taking huge losses and taking down pay for gains. walmart isn't paying billions more in taxes every year as amazon. one important difference. >> i think amazon's counter would be well, we are just following the u.s. tax code, right question work we are following the rule and that's what the rule exists do. i think that comes to a nether sort of big underlying current throughout the story of regional inequality you're tracing in this book which is the role of politics and
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policy. different levels of government have done over the last 40 years to create and re-create pathways of opportunity. what you think are the big takeaways in this book by whom seek culpability across the spectrum here in your story. >> the book is not a policy argument book or a thesis book. it is that narrative a reported narrative. it definitely leaves one with the conflicted impression that the biggest thing we could do to address this problem of this kind of concentration of wealth regional and equality is antitrust.
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and our lax approach to monopolies over the last four or more decades has played a big role in this. to put it in very blunt terms, the more that certain giant companies dominate whole sectors of the economy, the more that wealth and prosperity and business activity have been hoover into them and the places where they can reside. and that if we could deal with that problem somehow break them up, rein them in, you would end up dispersing wealth and prosperity around the country. the other example is what was done to my industry of media,
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right? it used to be ad revenue which was the lifeblood of journalism was spread across the country. papers, local to become a local radio, whatever. and now we move to a digital world where digital ad revenue is what matters most. in 60% of all digital ad revenue is controlled by two companies. and they reside in the bay area. and the bay area because of this is utopian levels of inequality and crazy wealth. they're gaining on this to an ad revenue. his across-the-board started on the right in the 60s and
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70s. overthrow antitrust the seo obama administration resided for eight years was decided of this massive growth of the giants. will divided administration take a different than the precursors did? >> speaking of levels of inequality in the bay area, usually what else the area it ails seattle to view and don't
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burn quite as hot but we still burn the pain and uncomfortable porch of diversity as it is now, our region. coming in as an outsider, what did you see? what were your takeaways? what you see is the biggest challenges for this place? >> it really knocked me out coming there. i've been there before us back their way back in 2004 is the first of may came. i just loved the city back then. he fell in love with it. just struck me how much it still felt like a raw natural resource outposts. you can still picture the logs rolling down the hill from the sawmill. in the huge rail yards and the port, and the ships, you can see all of this stuff coming down from the northwest, from
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alaska to this frontier trading post. so then to come back for the book in 2018 the wealth is just astonishing. it just knocked me out. not just the wealth the feeling you walk through union and you see all of that blandness of it. the buildings with strange names, but one in the buildings you saw that dog park on the 17th floor, the viewable terrorist. this amazing view on the 17th floor on a dog park terrorists. it's incredible's also surreal. then you go to the central
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district. i've been doing all this reading this great history of it but washington state historian and i found that book the baltimore library stumbled onto it. they had the historical monograph about the central district. meant to come there and see, i thought is in the wrong place, this is it? this is the famous neighborhood? this is like no neighborhood i'd seen transformation was stunning. i was back again a year or two later and saw the parade going down the street it was just heartbreaking. it was so poignant going down the street all the new buildings and people sipping coffee in their balconies
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looking down for a community neighborhood that was just barely hanging on. and then there was the political aspect of it. what happened around that 2018 tax referendum. and how kind of easy it was for amazon to tap into servant on pleasant strain of politics. really a liberal left version of tea party is in. anti- government strain of white should we raise more tax money to pay for causing homelessness customer for just going to waste it anyway. the government saw it wasteful, why even bother? and then the conflicted feelings are on amazon itself. like seeing that it had brought congestion to the city.
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and transformed the city in ways that were not entirely welcome. but at the same time also knowing that it had brought prosperity. in made short little bungalow that you bought for 200 grand years ago worth a million dollars now. and kind of a real pride in that. and not wanting to kind of kill the golden goose. : : : kind of balance to this incredible inequality. >> yeah. >> very liberal city was very striking.
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>> it's got deep roots in multiple causes, and it's going to be -- it's interesting, you are going to write a policy book. you don't end with prescriptions of here how this is will be fixed but i am tempted to ask you, because as to again quote from "the los angeles times" review, noting america done have to be a horror story. we did have at the beginning of the 20th century the concentration of wealth. bethlehem steal, this incredible inequality, and also geographic impanel and concentration of wealth. some cities are now the left-behind skis in your narrative. this is a seattle a question, lot of people listening who are caring deeply but seattle's future, both in terms of its --
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what prosperity looks like, and i think people have different ideas what that entails and recognizing that amazon and mother are big employers and there's a concentration of wealth and seemingly intractable problems. what advice do you have for, yes, antithink can about the -- thinking about the different approach towards antitrust and the local level, what are some things that people who are living this and caring about this, what does one do? >> i actually think that the key is actually not to think about if as local, and to really actually make the kicks between the local problems you're dealing with ask the national one. i fine it really confounding how so often in the winner cities there's a whole housing -- bitter housing debate between kind of the left factions,
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housing reply side, we see -- supply side and build explore runs into the him in byes who don't want you to and i would then the rent control people who think we can fix it by some kind of regulate limits. and that comes with its own problems. and just whole bitter fight, and i just -- so often missing is the broader context which is that this problem-affordability is being driven by this incredible concentration of prosperity and wealth in our country in a handful of places in a way that is hard do -- what kind of numbers we have for back in the day but that we simply haven't seen in very, very long time, if ever. just that income inequality in our done tray has grown continue credible levels, the 1% and all that. we simply are not nearly as
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disparate in -- between cities as we are now, and so i just wish there would be more of a awareness of how one city's problems fits into that broader context and a joining of the fight. on the national level. i worry why that doesn't happen is many people in the cities, while they're very worried about the housing affordability problem and all that, actually don't want to surrender any of their city's winner status. they're actually kind of proud of it, and -- or maybe even see it as good thing or like it's the world to have so much growth concentrated in dense cities that are kind of climate friendly for being dense and all that, but that misses -- these other cities also actually quite
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dense, and baltimore and cleveland and st. louse are pretty dense and you could have climate-friendly growth and possess apart there and row houses empty that are dense and the fact we're now, putting it bluntly in washington, for instance, knocking down -- figuring out what to do with a city where your average townhouse costs $900,000 if not more and 40 mills up the road we're demolishing entire blocks if a a vacant row houses that were nicer than the ones in d.c. and that's madness. but what happened just two years ago, the 25,000 high paid jobs in d.c., not baltimore, and that problem will get only worse so that's connected to that dynamic and too often it's kind of more narrow local fight that
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doesn't connect to the larger issues. >> yaw. so, i want to bring in some audience questions and if anyone has any questions, encourage you to put those in the chat and we'll try to address as many as we can, but we have one really -- i think an interesting provocative one coming in here, asking if amazon the evil player or technology/the internet. if not amazon would be paying, and zoom plays $15 an hour versus walmart's $11 hand hour. what's your reaction. >> i'm well-acquainted with that argue. which is the main argument i got back from amazon. when i was -- i talked at length with them, on the home stretch of the book and that is their main complaint.
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internet was going to happen, e-commerce was going to happen, just happens to be us. could be someone else, some company called something different but it's not. it's us, it's amazon. and that's true to a certain extent, but all these larger structural things happening in the economy and technology but we too often are -- often kind of go to that structural kind of frame too quickly or inclusively. the fact is the company does have agency and responsibility and for civic things it's choice ton. do didn't have to do things in the way it did. you go through all these different choices they made, starting with particularly aggressive approach to the tax avoidance and all these different ways that the book
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describes. particularly demanding workplace for their workers to the point where it has -- just -- the reports again -- the book has a lot of them, of just how high pressured these warehouses are. there's a reason why turnover is so high and a reason why a lot of people just can't hack it. it is pretty -- pretty unremitting, and the choice -- studying locations, they could have taken this as a -- their outgrowing seattle as a choice to -- moment to try to address these regional balance in the country. imagine if they had -- said we'll put it in st. louis. might not have the greatest workforce waiting for us at this moment but they'll come and
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we'll build it. this guess for the country. -- this is good for the country. in the book, when i bring this question up, he laughed at me. he said you don't understand, you don't understand amazon at all. you don't injured jeff. this is not how they thing. there's no notion of something -- good for the country. the larger quality. so, yes there are larger structural things happening, but companies made all sorts of choices along the way that made some of these problems especially dire. >> yeah. and it's also not just one company but i would say that it's kind of idea of the notion that our growth and possess spirit as a company is good for the country and we need to be heads down and focused on that is something that cuts across the tech industry and has for quite some time.
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didn't come out -- and it's common across a lot of industries. and also where the incentives are. what are the leaders of companies being measured on? stock performance? and so there's a real -- so, in this story of regional inequality and i think amazon is a powerful -- it is good connective tissue but this is about a broader political economy of the 21st century america, and one of the other -- it's not just retail. it's also you talk beaut aws, and mother is a big cloud player, google is working very hard to get up there, and also has a physical manifestation. can you talk about that, thinking bob broadly but the tech -- what is the implication of cloud infrastructure and the concentration of the services in a few companies.
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>> yeah. it's a whole chapter in the book. i knew i had to talk about the cloud as well, and go to that world and i win to that world in many places, in northern virginia, which is amazon and the other -- the rest of the industries initial big east coast hub for data centers, this whole sprawl of them, and going out into the horse country of northern virginia, west of washington, and then now increasingly also ohio. in the excerpts of columbus there's a whole new sprawl of them, and it's just -- it's the eerie u.s. thing to spend time in -- eerieest thing to spend time in them, hard to describe how huge and aggressively land and -- us early impersonal.
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almost no work -- only a few dozen people employed, which is why all the more striking that these local communities have just thrown tax incentives at the companies to build them because they're only get to get a couple of dozen employees out of them. and yet they're super heavily guarded and secretive. one of them i was followed by amazon cop who followed me all around and buy knock contractors and it was -- binoculars and it was crazy. the biggest question is really the energy. just they are incredibly only are in very rouse and the keys trying to make them -- as renewable energy depep depth as possible but -- dependent as possible and the reason the whole big cluster in d.c. is
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there's all these cheap coal, electricity, coming right out of appalachia. same thing with ohio, all this coal in ohio and so it's just -- there's this major reckoning around them that has to occur when its comes to the energy part of it. >> yeah. the doppelganger inch he pacific northwest we have hide crow check power which is greener but you get the east coast grid is very dependent on something quite different. so, there's a political dimension to this. the election of trump was a catalyst to write the book and i thought but the intense geographic sorting of america and which you are writing about here, which is something that is new and it is different. you and i are great examples of knowledge workers workers who gp somewhere else.
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grew up in arkansas, now a very red state. i live in seattle which is very blue, and there are lot of people who are in the seattle region who are from somewhere else. been part of its mojo, it's a work center and brought people in from elsewhere, and so that is the -- what is the -- does this help -- how does -- if policy is part of the answer here and finding common ground and common understanding, which i would say books like yours, although very dispiriting portrait, this is giving for folks like me, who live in seattle, and don't have a window into what it's like to be indate -- date ton, -- dayton, ohio. he cultivate empathy by understanding the lives of others. is geography destiny? there is a resorting and
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reseeding the middle of the country with more coastal people and vice versa is part of the answer. >> i'm so glad to hear you feel that grade -- great understanding of the people in the book because that was such a big goal for me. i have been moving between the worlds for the last 10-15 years now, quite a lot, and struck by the disconnect between them and just so wishing to somehow better understanding between them because it's so toxic, what we have right now, and it did play such a big role in trump's election, and as i say the book, it does not -- economic decline and resentment does not fuse racism and xenophobia, it's completely linked. they're fueling each other. and makes you more vulnerable to certain appeals, and the
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re-alignment -- i think we're not grappling yet how much of a re-alignment is underway right now. just how much -- democrat is a little they talk about how how much the parties have become dominate by highly educated upper income professionals in blue cities like seattle and boston and new york and d.c., but just happens, and that's one reason the party has lost a lot of its poll time, to working class white voter is the voter in ohio looks at the people who dominate the party and it's like, that's not me at all. i'm completely not -- i feel no relation to these people, and of course the party still -- democratic party still does have very strong rapport among
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nonwhite working class, hispanic and black voters and this creates a very kind of -- it's an awkward coalition. i kind of think of it as an amazon coalition, all the people in the cities, the well off middle and upper middle class professionals mostly white, who buy tons of stuff on amazon and other online services, so much greater numbers this past year, and then the people who pack and deliver it to them. that's sort of the democratic coalition now. and that's a tough coalition to hold together and you saw last fall in trump's loss, he actually made gains among working class hispanics and smaller gains among some black men but mainly among hispanics and you can see it's not crazy to think we might end up with --
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it's wild to think but it might happen that you could end up with a kind of working class republican coalition that's not exclusively white. because the democratic party has just become so much the party of these winner take all cities, and so -- that's a huge problem for the democrats. you can see in electoral college but you'll never get back the senate in kind of stable way because of the way the senate is just set up, and so i did write a piece back in 2016 before trump was elected, urging liberals to populate the midwest, but still think a better way would be to address the problem that the book describes, which is the regional inequality. if you can make dayton and
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toledo and akron more prosperous cities again, they will be less resentment, and there will be less empanel and kris might actually win the state again -- democrats might win the state again. >> so you think -- this is -- i'm going to push back in part because i have -- in response to a question in the queue here, questioning economic decline vs. racism and xenophobia which was something that trump tapped into, but clinton had a larger share of working class voters and white -- there's a sort of -- the midst of the economic discontent, those left behind voting for trump doesn't totally track and we have always had racism and xenophobia in
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america, and a national problem throughout american history, particularly in times of economic upheaval. will a kind of regional re-alignment help sort that or what more needs to be done? >> it's just a question of making -- it's what is followed -- what we have seen didn't the political map in recent years when certain places experience some kind of prosperity and is spread where it's -- didn't exist before, that has generally made places lure so that is what i meant. i you're a democrat thinking how to deal with this problem of the map, one way to deal with it is not to write in the places off, not just to write them off
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politically but not to write them off economically, and so as far as the class re-alignment, we have to be honest. yes, protect republican party has all sorts sorts of support g upper income voters and country club republicans and business owner republicans and that's all true, but trump -- the reason trump won in 2016 is he did a lot better with lower income white voters that republicans before had done. it's there in the numbers. he did so much better than romney with -- that is the obama-trump voter which did exist. they were crucial, and then the people that he kind of brought in -- nonvoters he brought in out of the woodwork, heavily
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lower income, and so you can cut the number certain ways and looks like the democratics do better with lower income voters but trump dramatically improved lower income voters than republicans and that's how he won. >> i think the economic story that you tell in the book is a really good -- helps explain why so many voters in 2016 looked at the democrats and looked at the republicans and looked at what those two parties had on offer to that group of people, the people in dayton and southeast ohio, and other places, and said, what the heck? let's go with the guy who is prom -- promising to turn the able over. can only get better from here. it's a real indictment. and i think you tell the story really carefully. this is one of the things -- i think this book will have a long
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tale, not just stick it to amazon book it's much about much more than amazon but underscores how amazon epitomizes and be a tail that wags the dog of a certain era of american politics and economics comparable to the great legendary companies of yore, so i appreciate that. we need to wrap up, but i want to just -- i always like to -- when i teach -- american history can be a bummer sometimes, so i always like to end on an up note and i was wondering, what makes you optimistic or who makes you optimistic? from doing this reporting, writing this book, where do you see hope? >> definitely see hope in really just in people.
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there are -- one reason i wanted to include certain people in the become is i see them as hopeful people. i think katy wilson is a very hopeful person. she is even after the tax defeat in 2018, keep fighting and actually the city now is ending up with another version of that tax, and the fight guess on. the young taylor sappington, incredibly hopeful person, young man who goes back home, is at george washington university on scholarship, done feel at home in washington, goes back to southeast ohio, appalachian ohio, ones for local office, has recently finally won local office the town auditor, incredibly poor town, and
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working at the kroger in town, and after previously having worked at the texas roadhouse, now at the kroger and also town auditor and recovering huge local tax fraud by his predecessor on the job and brings his town a lot more money this way a and all these plans for the town. i find such hope in these people, and that's why i actually love reporting, is that you always are going to find these people, and that's why i actually don't get too down about all this, because you actually need the people and see the lying in -- the light in them and the spirit, and that is completely restorative and really is what keeps me going, and what fuels know find even more of those people.
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>> fantastic. great note tend to only. i'm going to turn it over to town hall to take out. thank you for staying up late with is, alec macgillis. >> thank you both so much with appreciate you spending this evening with us and talking with us, interesting topic. and also thank you to everyone who is watching from home. if you'd like to pick up a copy of the book, please do so through our book store partners third place book, there's a rink the chat and have a great evening. thanks again. c-span's booknotes is back at a podcast. book notes louisville here compelling "in depth" interviews with authors and historians, new episodes are available on tuesday morning, on the latest episode we at the influence of
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greeks on the founders. become notes plus is a knew weekly podcast from c-span, describe wherever you gut your podcast and get information but all the c-span podcasts at c-span.org/podcasts. >> a look now at the current best-selling nonfiction books. first on the live is broken by jenny lawson on her personal battles with depression. next is grammy brandy carlisle's memoir, broken horses and then after that, chatser, psychologist's look at the so-called inner voice, and then in women don't owe you pretty, activist florence gibbons offers thoughts on feminism nor what she calls the instagram generation, and wrapping up a look at the best are selling books, is minor feelings, essayist cathy hong los thoughts
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on identity and being raced asian-american in america. you can. >> tonight on booktv in timetime, thoughts how humans can adapt to get through hard times. jeff reflects his tenure ceo of general electric. vox -- how the six conservative scream court justice rulings could effect the country, and then a back on how our memory works. >> boost on c-span -- booktv on c-span2. funding for booktv comes from these television companies who support c-span2 as a public service.

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