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tv   Sanjay Sarma and Luke Yoquinto Grasp  CSPAN  April 3, 2021 8:01am-9:01am EDT

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from iran. and on her weekly author interview program, "after words", former white house press secretary and fox news host dana perino discusses her career and offers life lessons. five. information online booktv.org or consult your program guide. and now we kick off this weekend with an examination of the science behind how we learn. >> i will just mention who i am briefly part i am a professor of psychology and cognitive science at the university of arizona and the psychology department. and i am also an associate dean for student academic success the college of science. and so this book meshes wonderfully with my own expertise and my own passion. and so i'm so delighted to welcome sanjay sarma and luke yoquinto joining us here on the panel transforming how we learn grasp science
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transforming how we learn. >> thank you welcome very much. >> excited to be here. >> so sanjay sarma's vice president for open learning at mit for he serves on the board the non- for profit company founded by mit and harvard to create open-source platforms on the distribution of free online education worldwide. sanja also advises several national governments and global companies luke yoquinto is a science writer covers learning as well as aging. and demographic changes role as researcher at the mit h lab. it's working without a publication such as the "washington post", slates, the wall street journal and "the atlantic". he is a graduate of boston university science journalism program. before we start discussion of the book i would like to direct our audience participants to ask questions by clicking on the ask a question box.
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rather than putting your questions in the chat if you ask the question box opens a window or you can type your question and where others can vote to elevate their favorite question. i also want to direct our audience participants to buy the book. so if you decide you are sold on the ideas you can buy the book right here. so now to start, the central concept in the book is the idea of the educational. sanja and luke what you mean by this? and what weight is education windowing happened and how does it affect the growth of human potential? stomach maybe i'll just take a stab at it and say there is a little bit of a conflict of interest in teaching, frankly. because on the one hand as a teacher it is my responsibility to make sure the learners learn something. but on the other hand it also settled with the task of grading the student and who succeeded and failed.
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the problem is that second half which is deciding who succeeded, who has failed, who is good, who is not so good, who is an egg, who hasn't be has begun to dominate everything we do in education. a lot of what we do in education. the pendulum has swung really far away frankly from the fullest goal which is to transform the individual make them a superstar, a rockstar, someone who can enjoy life. and once we start leaning on the who's good who is not, i think it is very seductive to get stuck on that and it gets more and more all about that. you can think about parenting would we ever say to two of our kids, you are good and you are not? no because we're focused on transformation. the whole system, not just the classroom but the entire system is all about admission rates in what score you got in
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the sat. which i sit is a necessary evil but should not be the whole enchilada, luke? >> just from a historical aspect to it, i think when we take the predominant role of sorting students and opposed to transforming students. that is a priority that really became major in school in the 19 tens covid 1920s. it reflects the most cutting edge cognitive edge of 1910 and 1920. in cognitive science does not state frozen in time with all of the standardization type structures designed in part to
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her actually learning as we now know it works. >> even more controversial provocation of, the interchangeable parts. he does not deserve credit for it, others do. the point is we do. i think we slowly morphed to being individual people it's a key element of that. >> right, right. stuck a little bit more, you survive the process in your own education as undergraduate student in the highly selective iit the indian institutes of technology which accepts only the top 2% of testtakers. at the time you took the test of 70000 others you're just one of 500 students selected. so you survive the process and
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see your friends by taking the knowledge you cannot force yourself to eat. and that you had an experience it turned that feeling around completely. can you tells about that? >> i had many experiences but sort of became all about the exam. i got into a system based on exam. i would say that the talent that was it i see was to the extent some believes and talents. it was great. this is not a knock on the amazing people there. but it became all about that. it became all about the race. now many find ourselves via hawaii and end up working in the oil industry. you were sent out to these oil rigs where we were extracting the crude from the rent era,
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scold on the rig there helicopters et cetera. my particular task was to produce the most oil and separate the oil intake samples. there was no -- you could not fail. all about making sure we succeeded at it. not about picking up who is better because it is irrelevant we were going to work on it. they would do things like very intensive coaching it would sabotage a mockup of the system, had it sort of mockup brick i'm sure would have to debunked. little bit boot camp he paper frankly so focused on transforming me as an individual in making sure i succeeded.
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did not matter on the rig if i messed things up, bad things would happen. in fact there were a few accidents the for a few years before i joined. it's all about making sure i could be good. why couldn't our education system be about transformed unfortunate comes a lot about picking out who the winners and losers are. >> writes. so that experience really propels you forward who are in engineer and vice president open learning mit. the first half of the book focuses not only on the history of educational practices that shape these approaches enter education today but also the cognitive science of learning. so i would like to talk a little bit about some of the principles that you talk about in the book.
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and how they are useful in the classrooms. commit to something not facing because start with that. >> i will jump in and site just to back up a tiny bit which talk about cognitive science and neuroscience principles their implications for learning. but these all these different levels of the cellular level you have the brain love you have psychology, educational psychology social psychology with a stack of disciplines. part of the challenges evidence-based in science minded educators have been dealing with for a long time is having you reach the bottom of the stack a section what is affecting students in the classroom as opposed to things that are happening at different levels on the way out. with the spacing effect that is really, really well
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supported, ancient in terms of psychology effect was the don't cram for exams you spaced out your studies over a course of a week or two. that is been described beyond frankly but quantitatively going back to emmy house in 1885. it is a very well supported educational psychology. it turns out not only was it supported in educational psychology but it's studied in animal behavior it shows up incredibly simple animals. we are talking about the roundworm has invariably 302 neurons. you can train it and a space mask protocol and it will remember for a longer period of time if it is trained on the space protocol. it's even more charismatic example which sort of forge
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the modern. with the memory and neuroscience. you can train it to have this reflection responses in a space or mass protocol. if the spacing effect turns up and such simple animals, there's good reason to believe it is fundamental to memory itself. it's almost like what are we doing if we are kind of pushing educational practices that encourage not spacing but cramming which i think frankly we do. and so shows up at the back of it neuroscience it also shows up at the higher kind of level where there is a whole another way of thinking about as well. it's almost like everywhere you look. one of the things that sanja and i want to point out is in every case where we have
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memory as we know it running up against the needs of the classroom as we know it, there is a potential opportunity for improvement. >> i'll use this silly analogy if i make. george clooney and billy were headed from 3040 pounds. none of us want to put on weight i don't think. but let me but that is an example of mental weight acknowledged pretty he did not do it by participating in a hamburger eating contest. he had distorted eat periodically and put on weight, right? if you cram it's like stuffing your mouth full of stuff. a couple of days later it is gone. and not pretty ways. the thing fail is if you want to do well on exam cram, if you want to do well for life learn it once. let your mind just about forget it, remind yourself
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again that's compatible to classroom so choose not to do it. but here's the thing. as i was told many times do not cram for an exam. the teacher doesn't tell you when you said that if you spend in same number of times cramming versus spreading it out, you will butter on the exam if you cram. if you only have eight hours a said either spread over the previous week or do eight hours right for the exam you will often do better on that exam. but after that exam the next week, the next month if you crammed going to forget that stuff. and you don't forget it nearly as quickly if you space it out. so this bad mix of incentives set up. >> right. and so, how do you incorporate spacing instead of cramming into the classroom? how you get students to do that? >> it is not trivial it takes a lot of design. and by the way can i just say
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all of the neuroscience in learning frankly aligned very much with my instincts as a parent, which should not be surprising. because learning is human evolutionary need and parenting is a form of teaching. and you know when your kids their eyes glaze over it you know you can remind them to ask later. so it was sort of get it. for us to design a classroom to do that she can't say well, averaged a semester i'm going to cover this the first week and then i'm gonna treat know you cannot do that. it got to work into the context later. maybe even your problem sets later they have to recall it. projects help a lot projects allowed recall not as in the context is talked about but in a different context. one is to really think it through pretty good educational journey, teaching plan truly a teaching plan takes careful crafting. the great teachers know this.
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teachers are heroes who know this. i don't get ticklish supports it. >> rights, rights. we'll get to that. they have some terrific ideas to help support it. you also talk about the concept of interweaving can you tells what that is and how that helps with learning? statement sure. with interweaving to take a spaced out study schedule this can be over in a time of timescale. it could be over one day, weeks, or months even. one spaced out study schedule and another in spaced use the gaps in one schedule with the active study in another scan bob and elizabeth york. a lot of this refers to block
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schedule which is mass schedules in school. you could also do this if you're practicing golf for instance. instead of hitting at the driving range instead of hitting the driver over and over again yet the driver when she put it down. you had the nine iron once and put it down and so on interweaving different skills. the couple theorized reasons i think it's more effective for this a good amount of research for the recall in terms of performance. it encourages sort of a destructive form of forgetting. forgetting not always bad. sometimes if you forget the little bit something that comes up and spacing of your studying something of a new skill and certain amount of time come back to it and sort of reload that body of
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knowledge that sort of reloading aspect can make you come back stronger than if you never put it down. and so the interweaving to sort of get that. plus your to work in two things at once. in the interweave thing you're doing in addition to the time elapse of forgetting. the forgetting effect to come back actually the memory comes back stronger. sort of getting in the group with your driver you put it down, come back, sort of reload the whole program. and then try again. and it works. stomach may be just give you an example. i will do a math problem. your studying monet and seurat. you do a monet, monet, and sarawak, seurat or go back and
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forth? is significantly better. but every book in every chapter and every book is a chapter on each trade is not forcing out of the groove and back into the groove for that's actual learning is luke just said. >> so talked about these principles. also talked about the importance of embedding learning in a world world context. like you experienced. tell me about this famous class at mit for sophomores. i forget the number 2007. tell me about this course and how it actually embodies and uses these principles to support a student like brandon to follow across the book. >> courses called two.zero
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zero seven license to design like james bond. her things numbered mit. isn't epic epic and historic courses action created by an icon and learning and design a gentleman who passed away very tragically last year end a mentor of mine. atop the course when i came to mit the first time. what happens in the course students are given a kit in there giving a contest where they have to collect some balls and put them in a hole and then battle each other's robots battle each other and so on. the classes about the process of designing the robots in the crescendo. the final event is this epic contest. in fact a lot of the robotics contest you see on tv of their existence to this original course at mit. it's all about creativity, design and so on.
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they do get assignments, grades but it's unaffected by the actual performance in the contest that's the beauty. this is an iconic course and mit. in fact the current department have mechanical engineering was my student when she went to this course and she was actually number one and number two in the contest. and so evelyn is her name. the point is this approach to sin forget the grade, let's just learn. let's bring the context of some achievements. let's coach, coaching is very fundamental. let's look at each other and see how people are being created. how often do we give students a bad opportunity? in the other thing about this approach is that it let's the student sort of wonder print we don't give them time to do in real life because it is so narrow. i think that course if we could replicate more but it's
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the closest of me working on it real oil rig. the final thing i will say is context that some philosophical level in my view create receptacles for learning. if you give learning without a receptacle wears a learner going to put it? given the context they know what to do with it. >> out also point out in this rich context students are having to, they do get very short segments of instruction or they learn about concept. but they are limited to ten minutes in length. and then students actually can go back to the many lectures as much as they want. that's not the only get the information once and they can never revisit it. they also apply these principles, right? the principles of spacing and also very, very powerful principal of retrieving forgotten and then rejuvenated memories that you mentioned
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when you mention the work of robert and elizabeth. >> look to want to talk a little bit? stomach i would just add at a general level have the extreme privilege of sort of embedding with this class of 2007 for the semester. i was just telling sanja this the other day. in the week leading up to the first session that really, really bright mit sophomores. i had the worst educational nightmares of my life just nights after nights of failing exams, not having assignments needing one more course credit to finish high school. it was literally a nightmare. and of course i go into this course and the students are intimidated only bright. but the course is the opposite of what my nightmares are about. this course is about the
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students getting a great at the end but this course is about building something that does something in the world everyone is having a blast. it was developer tori frankly. >> i think because so many educators have gone through this process they have had to work they have succeeded because they worked very, very hard. they experience that learning can persist and get through. what a different way to learn that you describe, right? it's almost as if you look at many classrooms go so hard as instructors to get away from the idea that learning should be hard. and so do you agree learning should be flawed, right? >> it should not be. if you look back to let's take castle spencer renaissance europe right?
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michelangelo. did michelangelo attend lectures? this whole business of focus on instruction and teaching, teachers what you do to student learning is what the student does, right? proper learning should be playful, it should be thoughtful should be at your own pace. can't ms. fraser and that goes by and if you miss one of the lessons on coaches and it just shoots by a few messier done. it should be like a village with a bunch of stores. and as you do stuff you go get stuff. and unfortunately we found two things. one we have collated education with pain so much so that students themselves on the other side expected. so sometimes we do these educational innovations at mit and other students from the students go wait, wait, wait this is too easy there something wrong with this. that's the level of stockholm soldier and we are having.
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>> i agree i agree. it is such a hard idea to get across i think. even in my own teaching i became, somebody studies learning and memory to understand these principles i became committed to flipping my classroom once or just for the audience to make sure that we understand what flipping is, flipping as though it would provide materials ahead of time for cheese students to come and prepare. so they do some of their learning online before. then they come into the classroom actually apply the principles. even if you're committed to these ideas actually implementing them in the classroom is a challenge. but let's go on. i just want to remind the audience that you can ask the questions fight we've got four questions great. i learned to crowd cast and just seeing this.
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so, here's a question. how does experimental learn to -- i have a daughter who learns much about using experimental model. smug experimental learning has many, many benefits of one is spacing pregnant do something and you have to recall how do you some information you learned earlier as natural as how life works that's what we should really be practicing for. and naturally tends to be spaced. because if you are building something it does not show up in the order of the sequencer chapters are written. so it very naturally does spaced but it does other things it does context very fundamentally does something called embodied, which is when you do something with your hands you engage the motor context and so on. interesting and emerging science there. to me the whole point of the
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classroom is to somehow get the hands, the mind, the body, the context the application involved. it's also by the way more equitable. if you have a child come if i am a child of a cobbler and you are the child of an accountant and were talking math and the teacher says trust me this will be useful someday. as a cobbler i don't see my parents using the math. so i don't pay attention. but you see a mom you get gratification. but if you put the experience in its more equitable. >> writes, that is an important points. just to follow up on madeleine's question, it is not so much that the experimental model and spacing are at odds. spacing is something that naturally occurs within an experiential approach to learning. i think that's what you would agree to and that's we have written about, right? >> we go back to 2007
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example. some students on one student already competed on battle bots some ex- students have never done any of the stuff or they come in and learn some early principle of coding for robot model robot that's not actually competition robots. you use that as we build a competition robot over the course of a semester. so instead of working at midterm on that concept and never revisiting again until maybe the final, these it again and again throughout the semester. >> rights, rights, yeah. i just want to turn to some of the comments in the chat that say they raised the challenges associated with flipping a classroom. so for instance a lot of students have negative associations. especially context of remote learning. i mean how would you address that kind of challenge? >> their two or three things. first of all table six both
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the teacher and the student has to be sort of fun taught some trauma from education. just assume this is how once he gets going with on this many time it does work. there are two aspects to it. the first is that we have a -- you have to have video content which is a consumer at their own time. and then the second is a classroom activity to be completely re- taught to enable learning and sort of a experiential way engaging way. in the is oomph sort of world we are and do not use zoom to give if you can possibly help it. if you can point to an academy but zoom should be discussion. there's a comment about people bringing interesting objects if you're teaching something complex like weber ration asked students to bring
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something to the classroom that involves vibration. and then show that. i'll stop there, luke i'm sure you have comments. strict just to expand what sanja is saying it helps take a step back and say what is happening in the classroom is speaking very read this to think there's a top-down delivery of new information and then there is the contextualization of that information where they are working with your hands whether having discussion or q&a it's ping-pong around the classroom between students for the objects in the classroom back up to the teacher. for time but we've sort of been stuck with especially under covid a lot of the top-down delivery of information has been done and asynchronous zoom lecture. which frankly is tough to sit through for one hour date let alone many hours of the day. so it sanja is saying, what if we took that top-down delivery, put on a video of
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the student can watch at their own kind of leisure. but keep the discussion keep the ping-pong aspect of the virtual classroom on the zoom. that's three at the q&a. in fact you small group discussion and the higher context. it works pretty well. with nine or ten students there's no hiding in the back of the classroom and zoom. there are certain advantages even. that is sort of what we are talking about here. this is really exciting to hear about your helping us understand how to actually realize these concepts in the classroom. and in a zoom classroom. let me move onto another audience question. this is from carolyn. she is asking even though you're addressing them portend of window versus transforming as content learning/memory. do you move beyond this, from
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this conscious massive fundamentalist customers i believe the transformational dimensions of learning happen rather than linear space. this gives me the opportunity to ask you about your concept of insight out outside in instruction. can you say what you mean by these ideas? then you'll see how this fits with the question for smith loop unit take that on? >> sure. i guess speaking very broadly launched into a metaphor here. something just happened to sanja i will keep going. if we are talking but understanding the science of learning, you can imagine the optimal path from naïveté to some kind of enlightenment for student, i imagine it's literally a shipping lane out in the ocean somewhere. how do you map the optimal
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path? you take a mechanistic approach might be, we know this about ocean currents we know this about underwater geology. we know this about where there might be ice close. therefore this is pro the safest and most efficient path. in the more holistic approach would say like sartre sanja of just talking about jumping back again the other approach should be more like well, we know if they go off in this direction that ever comes back. we never know why that seems dangerous. if we go in this direction that was get there and we believe the worst. since entering to break it down into an understanding we should just stick with what we know works at a top level. and so it in the history of education are two patriot estates for these approaches are yield thorndike naked 1898
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but through the 1920s and 30s try to understand the nuts and bolts of memory versus everyone possess education also montessori and others. and what's kind of interesting, we talk about experiential learning. we also talked about getting this out to as many people as possible. the question is incredibly expensive feet to put on for the students. i can't get into numbers but it's a specific course to learners is there might not be enough money in the world to do it. so we're trying to understand how can we replicate something just as good or almost as good for vastly larger populations of people. and so we get into the second half of the book is the inside
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out approach is expanding skill versus outside in approaches. and indeed the question i mentioned the experimental spiral their people trying to replicate sort of the john dooey experiential spiral scale with technology. it is a tricky question. the jury is still out. the idea is the student lead and discover where they want to go within certain structures. but if sort of the re- accountability of a softer backbone behind it helps you get to the scale with a certain amount of quality assurance that sort of thing. it is a really interesting kind of dichotomy that ultimately makes its way into how even futuristic way of thinking about education. >> rights. say the insight out and outside and practitioners both
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agree what you mean by a nerd knowledge? when you mean by inert knowledge and why is that a problem? >> i think insight out done in the 1910 was a false. they tried to understand science but they didn't break people who really understand neuroscience now realize it's much deeper and the limitations are much more. we tended to not the almost taylor is him education. taylor is him applies to education. now, let me talk about the inert learning concept, here's what i explained. there is a fundamental that we talk about in education that somehow, some people there is a presumption that learning, the teacher has a pen and the
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learners bring a sheet of paper. and all the teacher has to do is write on and declare victory. that is the presumptions active learning is that the student is forming a model of the world sorted by case plants are growing. you can't just give it a lifetime supply of water on day one and declare victory, right? you've got to give water what it once and every parent knows this. a sort of an active learning is. you're learning you're using it your formulating models we sort of boulders over it. >> just took spano it sanja was talking about the insight out or inherited inside out model from the 19101920s, some people thought we understood what learning was, it involved answering questions correctly on the
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test, that means you have proved that you've learned something. what we now know what the risk of the inside out way of thinking is it's was a very reductive way to think about knowledge join up with knowledge that works on a test but does not actually help you in the real world. that's kind of in the shift in metaphor you think you have it figured out than the shipments of having a ship wreck somewhere along the way. so the holistic way of thinking about is you are missing something we don't know what it is but there's something about the science of how the sea works it's causing your ship to break up on the unknown sure somewhere. so the holistic way the outside in ways that hang on let's take a step back let's do this without breaking down learning into anybody aspects. >> right. and so ultimately he resolve the conflict between inside and outside learning. i think this is really crucial.
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i think it is as if resolving this conflict creates the secret sauce. it captures the secret sauce of the formula you have promoted in the book. and so i wondered if you could say something about that? there's something that it captures by taking these two views into account that is different and that is crucial. systemic wanted think i would say to that is as i said people understand how neurons work are beginning to realize that 86 billion neurons it is very hard to take conclusions and translate them to what a child who's grown up in a certain environment is going to, how they're going to react and how the going to learn is very hard to do that. but we are learning some things. [inaudible]
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>> their beginning to understand some things that we believe can actually apply at the high level of the whole brain student classroom level. but with humility. probably the contact world it was not humble this lace of preconceived notions, racism, et cetera. that led to a very almost a sort of reducing like the worst of all worlds. so we can resolve but we have to understand it's very difficult to resolve it when you do take the insight up and down what you realize it's surprisingly human thankfully. >> it is sort of. [inaudible] a lot of racism and other things that are very bad. you're taking most cutting edge science that he has at
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his disposal applying it to a classroom. as we said in the book it was just a huge swing animists or rather he jumped the gun. the science was not ready to be applied to the classroom. now we are talking about we have with science make good amount but still added mysteries in the stack of diffs disciplines. put non- user to the brain at level. there is a person under microscope and set of neurons. that person is fundamentally mysterious. so how complexity is entered the picture. we talk about the inside out versus outside approaches as we say okay, it's inside out where the thinking about learning. but we can use the outside in approach obligate things in a holistic way to inform and guide the way we think about the inside out stuff.
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>> gotcha. that is very helpful. so you mention on a number of occasions the book the disenchant learning calculus and learning to use calculus. learning physics and thinking to learn physics. when you mean by that? >> only speak let's take literature. one as i think the great values of literature if you study shakespeare you get it for life prefix and the really complex and put it in" what catches a complex thought a newcomen deputy aided in construct even more complex. the same is truthfully mentioning learning actually in my view personally i think in luke's view in the view of many people. i have studied a lot of physics. when i talk to others at mit,
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i can get away with using those terms but if i'm talking to someone who is just educated i can convey to them parts in a way that the other person understands. but even more importantly each discipline gives us a different view of the same concept of knowledge it gives us different ways a different form of x-ray vision. and we can then abstract philosophical things and move them across that is what makes human beings so exciting, different perspectives give us different ways to pass information. so learning calculus as i learned i could hear probably solve it. learning calico's the right ways essay you know i'm looking at that hill medicine crest that's a point of inflection and it's all downhill from there. and the grading attire probably need to go into lower gear in my car. that is a deep level of thinking we are sort of map of the rural world to the abstract world. that bridge takes time and
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effort, passing an exam does not need them. >> right. getting to that point were you have this activated knowledge really does bring together in the way we learned learners would learn to think using calculus or learn to think using physics. that really involves a combination of insight out and outside in approaches. i think you'd argue. like bringing together the two different roads of learning. >> you could see it gets into your bones at some levels. by the way at this point mit we don't really talk that much about teaching programming. we talk about teaching commutation of thinking. >> getting back to the ideas we discussed, is there a way to separate teaching right? if we want to get rid of
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winnowing as are some major focus on teaching instead? i'm thinking about the experience to relate about the young man josh and rene. schematics so they were this is really interesting. they were at a coating of boot camp called 42 really interesting set up for students courting for a mapped out progression of projects, steep teach one another to solve the next project. this boot camp is free for students if you get in. the way you get in vision basically go, live there couple weeks solve promise based on how you do they let you in. there is no overall letters of recommendation there's no previous grade, none of that matters is how you do me go and live there. in fact early on they housed
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the two students, right? >> rate. nothing but performance will get you in. once you're in it will pay your weights quite an efficient set up. because it is students teaching students. sort of the way it works if you're developing a tree of knowledge a student might be a similar level to you. something like a professor would sort of like appearance structure to physics two. so joshua these two great guys who are the pleasure of talking to who are at 42, who in silicon valley had flunked out the first admission cycle and were allowed to come back. it was a major triumph that they got back in. they are just doing this experiential project -based progression you just solve one
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coding project you go to the next one in the next one. it's a pretty interesting way of doing it. that provided a pathway for student who struggled in the traditional university in a way that really engage them. much in the way that sanja, your experience of the first company worked at really engage engaged you as a learner. so much so you went back, got your masters and your phd. and became committed to lifelong learning. you know, in the last ten minutes or so i would like to move onto your your ideas on how we change education. i am thinking about another example of separating teaching this micro masters program that you and your colleagues at mit developed. how does that program reinforce or use the ideas
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that we talked about from science that are so important for learning. and how does it separate teaching? and how can it help i view move opportunity for education and access forward? >> let me explain how it works it consists of courses first of all because in cornice video the video is only ten minutes you can watch them again and again and it's on the sleep train if you miss. you can take its premium seeking to get for free or you can pay and get a certificate it's very novel because it varies by idea and so one. soap micro masters is for these courses. and here's what we did, no admissions. >> no admissions?
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>> no admissions how do you explain that concept? the way it works is at a university like mit space is limited. we can only take a class of 30 people to their masters. but in the online space is infinite. so why should we limit, let anyone join. we give them exams and they can take they can take it for free when they are ready they take the exam. at the end of it at their own pace and finish they get this thing called a micro masters and of story. with the micro masters because it's base it mit they can it attend to mit or hundred of the universities. when they get in give them credit for the semester completed. the micro masters itself there are no admissions. >> let me jump in with sanchez first describing this to me
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sort of an outsider into this, it took me a second to wrap my dear on the genus of this idea the big challenge of coming up with new educational credential that is free basically is no admissions, how do you get people in the labor market to care about it? just so different and it has value. what sanja and the other folks at mit. can this micro masters content the same of the first half of an mit masters degree. it was like backing it with gold. and by the way if you do well enough in the micro masters online component with no other considerations just your performance on the component you can get into the second half of mit masters degree and come home with the masters
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degree from mit and that other colleges and universities as well. having talked to the students of the micro masters course and a supply chain these are very vigorous course. it is no joke. they take it really seriously. as a result, there recognizes the really valuable credential and are hiring people who basically took this on their own time for free or for very little money. >> and at the same time because the courses are essentially free or be at very little cost, your opening up access for people. you are providing them with materials and problem-solving sets that help them integrate these concepts in spacing and interweaving and retrieving forgotten information.
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your increasing access. your also doing something very special when it comes to learning, right? when it comes to them making a step forward, right? it is hard to see how people can lose by engaging in the micro campus. and does not cost much and opens up an opportunity for further education if they succeed. make you are exactly right. i like the way you put it so micro masters on a macro campus left mexican mccright, right. winnowing. can you say something about that customer casted address this problem we face we are narrowing down human potential, right? we are narrowing down because were winnowing people to be so uniform were losing out on
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students were not at a place in their lives were they have been excited enough about learning to actually go through that. or they have been discouraged. >> it's like playing golf and golf you're playing yourself. who do not have the yelling you did not do well. base of the this is done it's there, take it, have at it. no one is there to tell you if you hit a hole-in-one that's great, if you don't, go at it again. stomach another thing that surprised at the masters level and at high school and college and other levels is this was an approach to introduce the principles we talked about without burning it all down. sometimes more frustrated with the way things are sometimes to say let's just start over. being pragmatic you have more
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success probably if you can find a way to fit this into the existing framework. set sanja and i found a way to adjust the framework for the masters degree. there are other ways to wedge somebody's pencils we talked about into a high school physics course for example talk about. instruction in a mention of the more far out physics classrooms and things like that. just to say it like you don't have to always and burn it all down to define a way to make things better. >> great, great. thank you for adding that in. we are coming to the end of our time. we only have a few more minutes. i wondered if you all would like to either or both of you would like to very quickly, in the final minutes address anything that we have not discussed or revisit a topic that we have discussed that we really want the audience to take home with them.
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>> out to say this rebecca and thank you for a wonderful session you're really great guide to this conversation. i think i will say this. i think our instincts of human beings are closer to the truth is what we are discovering for better learning. then the art officials of the systems we set up. we sort of made them up a couple hundred years ago, right? and it has become dogma. we have systems that are armed and so on. we need to sort of unwind a little bit and figure out where we ought to go. it will not happen in one shot believe got to begin the journey they set. >> liquids like to add to that? i can't add to that of just one set project just reinforces the idea that helps to build something with your knowledge. in fact what sanja and i do is
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build this book. it helps to builds a big and the expert on your side so i always thank sanja for being that expert. stomach it truly is a collaboration count on mine. everybody, that is it for today. special thank you to sanjay and luke for your participation. i thank you to all the attenders for visiting stay well and keep reading. to be macbook tv on cspan2, every week and with the latest knowledge of books and authors funding for book tv comes from these television companies. who support cspan2 as a public service. >> here's a look at some publishing industry news. harpercollins america second-largest book book publisher has made a deal to
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acquire for three and $49 million. hm h the sixth largest publisher in the country had over $191 million in revenue last year with the majority of their sales coming from their extensive inventory of older titles. harpercollins is looking to finalize the acquisition still subject to regulatory approval by the end of june. children's book publisher scholastic has pulled from distribution dave pelkey's 2010 graphic novel the adventures of luke and luke kung fu caveman from the future because the publisher said it quote perpetuates passive racism. mr. pelkey the author of the best selling captain underpants series agreed with the decision and wrote on his youtube page that he quote intended to showcase diversity, equality and nonviolent conflict resolution. but this week was brought to my attention that this book also contains harmful racial stereotypes passively racial
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imagery the author intends to donate his advance in all royalties from the book groups that are working to combat racism. and to promote diversity in book publishing. in other news mpd books and reports of book sales were up 37% for the week ending march 20. and to longtime authors died last week larry mcmurtry besson for his novels about the american west lonesome dove and the last picture show. :
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>> sunday on "in depth" a live conversation with harriet washington. her most recent book is carte blanche. her others interviewed medical apartheid and deadly monopolies. >> when companies use profit to measure their success in the medical arena the problem is we can't expect companies to care about us, we can't expect companies to sublimate, make less money because they care about our health. they don't care about our health. our government, the people that we pay and should expect to care about our health and defend us, our government should be raining in these companies come our government should be forcing them to develop things that will fit public needs and it is not. >> join in the conversation with phone calls, texts and tweets for harriet washington sunday at noon eastern on

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