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tv   Author Discussion on American Society  CSPAN  January 23, 2021 6:00pm-7:02pm EST

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the c-span nonprofit operations. shop today at c-spanshop.org. >> booktv continues on c-span2. television for serious readers. ... for that, i am very excited to be joining by - >> 99 percent. >> we can do a separate breakout session on the mispronunciations of an austin . but eric
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goodfellow at institute is coming to us live from just outside this been in a pleasant little fishing village i am told. that's in portugal. and speaking a portable in a prior in our political life, bruno was a minister of european affairs portugal. but he joins us now to talk about the united states. and perhaps a slightly capacity as a european visitor an observer on our shores. inspiration for this conversation is in fact his new book with i will hold up right now for not catching too much glare. history has begun. the birth of a new america. i will say just as a maybe by way of slight contrast, a long time ago, i worked at the atlantic and nearly 2000. we assigned the french intellectual the any of you may have heard of.
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to travel the united states and produce a series of essays. ross: the name to be kind of new tocqueville, a new european account of america's seen through other eyes. i don't think i violate the terms of my former employment at the atlantic when i say that the result was somewhat disappointing. i don't think anything about the thank on america in the early 2000 will stand the test of time. i am more hopeful for what history has begun . i think even in places where you next disagree with that . think it's a very interesting book the condition of the united states and what appears to be the end of the trump era now. and also the age of the coronavirus which sort of broke upon us while this book is sort of in transition from the
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european publications to his american publication that includes happily an updated chapter and explains reasonably well why everything that's happened in america in the last year it's the office thesis. as i have my own book amount and were working on own version of that chapter i admire what you have done there. i sparred to the same kind of interpretation. so want to start out by talking starting with the title itself. history has begun which is put a call out the famous work of the end of history which may be standard the era defining book for the period in u.s. and world history that started with the end of the cold war. so history is begun is obviously suggesting something that was happening. it's entering into moment in the american conversation with there's a lot of talk about that just sort of the decline of the american empire and the public
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but also sort of an end to american exceptionalism. i think that one of the most distinctive things about your argument bruno is that again, the title and subtitle suggests, you are arguing in any ways the american era not just the americans the world history might be getting right now. so will get into the conversation as we go but just last start out by talking about what you mean by that provocative argument. >> should unbutton my shirt . ross: no keeping it buttoned with the professor and the strongest contrast. that's good. bruno: okay well yes, it starts as a provocative lesson throughout the apocalyptic writing that is happening about a year to go the starting with trump. i think actually some that
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writing now needs updated immediately after the election and talks about a new beginning. think it fits with the book. but more historically, is an attempt to look at america and separate from europe. in any people listening in, it's obvious that is there you go back in history you look at the exceptions about this paredes. he seen all throughout the 19th century. and even recently. to think of america as the european civilization. i think that is fundamentally true. it is behind the regime. that the relationship seemed very closed. and maybe we have to wake up to the fact that american now, is all-powerful and when the
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differences in power with respect to europe so obvious to everyone for me to perhaps it make sense anymore to begin thinking of america's ultimately subordinate to european ideas. so let's make that effort again which any people have made in the past and not very successful . but trying to decide the better part of it. he mentioned it does exactly the opposite. when i say that other attempts afternoon not being successful, in this model, america becomes the teacher of europe. bringing about a number of changes that was interesting but doing it faster. so what happens when you look at america future in the future of europe and starting at the book. ross: so what is happened . for the features of the new america
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that are distinctly separate from this sort of european drama from the french revolution onward. bruno: obviously even before writing the book, what really distinguishes america is the temptation a fantasy and a virtual reality. in the book i argue that you trace this temptation, the strict back to the very origins that even the pilgrims were escaping social and political reality. and created an alternative world and in fact reality. and then you have that throughout the movement of the west in the frontier. an argument that i find persuasive that he knew not communism in america because it is always possible we've the constraints of capitalistic
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economy just moved west. it and then when meant, with hollywood and disneyland. it all becomes to the servicing attractive to the europeans. the rain of pure imagination in america. but more recently, it's acquired such extreme forms and the check and restraint to the delight of entertainment. i think trump was here precisely because that. the world of reality television is attempted world that donald trump is in the white house . and think that is what defines trump moment. virtual reality now occupying the white house . and you've written a lot about this, the virtual reality about donald trump.
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i think you can see what i am talking about. donald trump is essentially figure a virtual political reality in this what distinguishes the home. it. ross: before i go further, i usually forget the outset to mention that we will be taking questions and trying in the last 15 minutes on your questions and if you have questions, the best way to get them choices to either e-mail them to jackson . woolford petits adi .org 40 tweet them with a # aei to america and again about 30 minutes or so will dig into those questions. so back to virtual reality. my own book, came out earlier this year just before the pandemic which was called the deck contents society which
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argued that overlaps in any ways with your argument about simulation and fantasy is sort of defining features of american life and also. [inaudible]. for my perspective in part like a kind of dating is not exactly the right word but sort of a place where american culture sort of inserts into reputation and political stalemate. it sort of as you reach a certain form where you are reading from the real into the virtual . one the absence of reality means it's your virtual fictions and certainly is become less interesting . mort sort of recycle the same kinds of stories. the day before having this conversation disney announced his 20 new star wars tv shows in his 20 new marvel productions so
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one which is again the extension of the world of disneyland that you talking about. that may be seems be more of an extension towards a kind of sterile repetition. and then in politics, it is what has been striking about the trump phenomenon in any ways at least in the domestic politics there is relatively trump show . goes on but separate from the work of government which is sort of stalemated and gridlocked and just passing budgets and maybe a coronavirus relief bill. that's my preemptive agreement but also counterpoint to your argument that this kind of intense virtual is in the defining feature of the u.s. but historically it seems to have more connection to reality
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and this connection to reality doesn't become sort of less creative and more sterile. bruno: think so. it i saw you had an exchange on twitter just before we came on. something that needs to be connected to reality in order to be creative. i'm not sure about that. sweetie doug with a political side. so once again in the election showing the advantage. is what they've done the last two or three months, you have a transition which at the level of language is as radical as one can imagine. language reduced diametrically opposed. so the switch and able to do it.
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i had no doubts the reason able to do it is because everything takes place socially distance from reality. it you have a civil war. . sure that in one of the columns that all of these conspiracy has a very stabilizing role. because people can inhabit their conspiracies. they can project a successful resolution in their own mind permitted this just one example which actually the omen of american politics is stabilizing. and run risks trying and things without ending up in either civil war and both risks great effectiveness over the last two months. i have had no debts . by the way
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you also express the same. but i think very few people expected that they were as scared same of the past few months. regarding culture and creativity, and every culture the case. there's also an element of transition. something new and abandoning the cultural tradition. some are looking on the internet and expect extraordinary and was happening in hollywood is nuts. but covid-19 will help a little bit. the cultures going downwards. so i have expectations and with the book can do. you mentioned in your book, so
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after describing this extreme time, so extreme that 38 even using a soon as you put it. but you draw all the scenarios. they are really fascinating, interesting and radical, healing and with technology and religion in with world politics. and so on. but the possibilities are in our current lives. but it's sort of as i was reading your book recently, fist of the past 50 pages or so. it's not that they're completely renewed. something new is being created.
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and also in technology but also in the art cultural expect. some radical new things. it. ross: i obviously agree in the sense the ascent think that you can say the fact that even before covid-19 the fact that i could spend almost a fourth of the book about the decadence talking hopefully plausibly about scenarios for the decadence ends . it is possible. it is less decadent and stagnant than it might otherwise be. but i barely gone back and forth of the last year on whether the coronavirus experience sort of proves sort of the hinge into title, history beginning again. new moment of the new era. whether sort of moment that
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punctuates decadence and exposes and reveals sort of problems of stagnation without providing a solution for them. to me it seems like his big gap spee10 what you call the technological responses in the last year and every other kind of response. obviously, the race for a vaccine in the fact that we have a vaccine, when he vaccines it seems in such a short amount of time. the sun decadent. then you can pick out a bunch of sort of mother smaller from the moment but possibly longer developments in technology. they'll suggest from the stuff with space x and travel to novelties and quantum computing the development of artificial meat. and tyler are sort of follows
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all of this stuff, they had run a pieces last week that said what's going to happen on thursday. what is the next technological development. all of that he would say this might be the hinge moment. within a few look at sort of governmental responses in sort of the public systems political responses to the challenge of covid-19. they look terrible. there you do sort of see a lot more commonalities between the failures in the u.s. and the failures in europe versus the relative successes of the state if there isn't to me it was like looking at the covid-19 response he would say, political decadence is an evenly distributed the u.s. and e.u. in spite of the differences have a lot of common unless decadent and south korea japan and taiwan
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and own way. and also china. as others that and then, on the little bit demographic incentive. this sort of covid-19 accelerated kind of retreat and do virtually release temporarily accelerates retreat from normal social lives. and therefore for marriage and child. so on. probably will be a covid-19 baby boom. although there may be imposed who would look . but i think you can see a lot of places where it seems like that 20 is deepened surgeon times the state patient. so sorry look back and forth. it is knowledge, maybe this is the point. if it's politics, even look more decadent than we did before party did you think. bruno: i suppose, i think it is
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too early first of all. running book now on the pandemic and going back to april. and some have not survived it all. so i'm glad i postponed it. i think now it's going to change of the next years to get to the vaccines. and clearly an area where the u.s. and europe have performed better than china. china has have troubles with the vaccine. there's a primitive vaccine is the people that thought into the chinese vaccine are actually regretting that they did rated but it all started, you couldn't anticipate them over the united states would be faced with next digital threat to the wavelength that is so typical of american
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today. everybody pursuing their ideas. one of the collapsed where it suddenly becomes very serious . well organized, motivated, will scandinavian evidence-based, policy or whatever. that would've been come the rule. mr. this would've been an example of extraordinary attempts to my country that did this and where it has abandoned its foundations. and between which are forced to do and with your instincts. that america has not always done this in the way of the self confidence in way of life and continue as if nothing of great importance has happened. transforming the whole affair into a movie is something happening in the book grounded. and people are more concerned with you're going to qualify
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chris. one might resort china virus or covid-19 virus free when he to college rather than fight it. there's something impressive about that in the way. can deliver in terms of developing the technology. but it allows you to ignore with happening of real biological physical world and the environment change of course lewis is going to be heading the same way. but if you can pull it off using technology, than his into leave have in the protocol battle between american reality. i would say is the greatest story over the last 300 years. eventually the really took us project of living. in which reality doesn't exist. in taking one step at a time but always moving forward. and i am an observer prayed i am
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fascinated by that. and don't necessarily call it decadent . but as you described in your book where i think we have a more ambiguous picture. in technology for example the pictures notice rosie's and client now . it could become that way. and you is to be pushed into a better relationship with technology. ira suspect that we briefly talk about this. harry suspected the u.s. is moving towards a solution. having europe and china and in europe, the suspicion of technology and the constraints. they are becoming overwhelming and chatty of technology being issued by political people themselves with the obvious trust in technology and advanced
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regimes. trying to navigate between these two extremes rated you take more risks with technology but you don't absorb it into the political regime and make it a political project. his overall theme any of the things you described in the book, i have a more optimistic view of what is happening in the u.s. today. ross: so talk a little bit about europe. as you have a more pessimistic case on europe at the same time you tend to be more put it this way, in an american context, your set of ideas of sort of right of center. i think it is fair to say which may be why were having this conversation. right of center think tank. it fled in terms of year for me to be more favorably disposed towards optimistic about both the institution or eat you self
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and also sort of the prospects for a simulation of muslim immigrants to the u.s. which tend to be the two things that the right of center observers in the u.s. prefer. regarding europe. some parents about that sort of greater positivity towards european institutions and europe's seemingly immediate challenge joined with this sort of more macro level type to the u.s. and i'm reading right. bruno: broadly aspirated any of the descriptions that you have in your book when i was reading it seemed to me to fit your better than the u.s. senate end of the straight world is doomed to repetition. it and that is doomed to ongoing
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dus the moderation more than a different sense. but in moderation work nothing very risky nothing very adventurous, that is the reason by the way i am so favorable to a new kind of with the muslim world. and also lobby integration but also in trying to go back to the roots of being connected to the muslim world. it will be a top to the european routine think it's exactly what we needed right is an lc in america but europe has some of the problems that you described a well-developed. liberalism because it is political risk and everything that is part of the ordinary and turn into a nasty political experiments. see you try to prevent it as soon as it emerges. and by i'm thinking something
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like donald trump which was tried and experimented. it needs service system is abandoned and dropped and switched. but it was still something encouraging to see working democracy could walk, this kind of deviation from the norm. the big one example would be financial and say the things that struck by the full can't be true because you actually have something it is for five years ago, we do need to think about. and in a society with the unthinkable happens is the president times. and you do ten to measure decadence in terms of repetition. angel on the new book. as an electronic the snow possible in your . it depends on the strategy you are using. but the picture is not
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complicated or ambiguous. ross: did think that saying something like trump can happen in europe, from an american perspective there's been a lot of writing and arguing that tropism was one sort of anticipated in europe. the phenomenon. and in italy and also a fairly right there is some overlap between trump being popular and brexit, he sort of incomplete power of the far right parties in the european politics relative to the recent past. so what is so distinctively american and perhaps decadent about trump relative to italy and as compared. bruno: was interesting that you
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have two types of figures in europe. the political entertainments. on the other hand the far right politicians. asked about the debate, still ongoing about where to place trump. closer but i still think it's a different kind of figure. he's a famous person, a wealthy person who moves into politics and tries to become a serious politician uses this payment and his money as tools to come the successful politician. and trump is the exact reverse of this in your book for exhibit uses politics in order to become a better entertainer. rather than using entertainment in order to become a better politician. neither way that was sometimes trying and i just a late trump ever wanted to be serious.
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is that an example he would not have done that. he's different and what he represents. find him much closer to anything happening even though transitional you might place trump on the far right . with a rep. development that political principle is a myth virtual reality and the idea of a political so that is more important than the reality rated which is actually lost from you completely. statement so then there's a couple of directions we could go that. but let's stay on this for a minute . and and when the george floyd protests broke out, there were similar protests around the world to kill late in the uk and
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again i think in the american press there was a certain kind of writings about this was an example of the globalized world and you left and progressive will be a global phenomenon . but then by contrasting last couple of months you counted this striking divergence between sort of u.s. media treatment of issues in france related to this, and out even the french parts of the french left responded. there certainly this big divergence between the american left and parts of the french left. i think you lean more towards the second tour the view that magnus is very distinctively american. and regarding . clear even sort
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of slightly comic. in large parts of the world. bruno: you don't need to make the argument that russia india or china but they made a before and i think a conference some of the things that i was saying. the disconnect is really very deep. and involving europe, kind of a hybrid institution. it in american journalist but it felt very much so in the european media space. and i had been published. but in europe, it was almost a time, it was canceled. for being too woke. meisel different things in europe as it does in the u.s. in europe it could be canceled.
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i think there's now a level of mixed cases coming in. i think one of the events of virtual reality. you see the far left in particular, they want to change social reality. as a project . and everybody in america still has that and whether bernie sanders has it or not, in some ways it comes from all of the european inspired traditions including marxism. but it will is that you see building up in portland and seattle. it they're not interested in transitioning social reality. i think you've written about trump that level somehow he's disconnected from reality. it doesn't mean he's an effective, is just operating in a different level.
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ross: all of they are trying to change is that reality that they themselves haven't. i think the distinction between the emphases of progressivism consumer 2020 versus progressive them as conceived by bernie sanders was that sanders was more interested in trying to change the condition of a poor person in west virginia. and progressive them in the summer of 2020 officially was more interested in changing the conditions of a black person in inner-city america and her relations to the policeman practicing to be most interested in changing the conditions of power within sort of high-level social institutions and intellectual institutions in the u.s. whether it's by a corporate hr department or internals of my own newspaper perhaps in some ways or academia. it's a one which is not completely virtual previous real-world effects beside project the social
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transformation in the classic socialist sentence. bruno: do you remember the debate about the old amish border. it said the supreme court. space for a fully religious life so perhaps we have the right to send her children to school just a few years ago elementary school . i think this is quite similar to this. and i'm not as critical as the conservatives in the u.s. are . you need to create an environment where you can experiment with in a general sense where you don't have to be wary all the time. it so i understand a lot of the argument where the politicians stand on. rather than being mutual and include everyone.
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so to the argument much more of it happening and experience more deep about how he felt and changing reality. ross: let's use that to push towards a question that you raise earlier will unite tended to agree enemy try to push against our agreement for a minute. we can have it to the questions from the audience this. this question of self stabilization. the idea in america concern of deep into its virtual realities, that that very ritualism means you aren't getting civil war not even a sort of late 1960s style day of rage. the people are talking about cues and civil works on the internet but there's no sort of real thing relative. i find that argument powerful. i do think it's the aftermath of
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troops electoral defeat . were you had pieces that there would be violence at the ballot box and proud boys in the street and someone parted and instead, the attempted frivolous lawsuits and twitter feed. that seems right to a point freighted with the top challenges each major form of virtual lives him is much more threatening to the other at the moment. then the older amish are created so religious conservatism in the u.s., trying down to the size and scope and about two distinct would not be a source of polarization argument. nobody would care what adoption agencies were doing or who evangelical florist, whether
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they would market same-sex weddings, if there were only 100,000 catholics are a hundred in the u.s. because there are any more religious conservatism's as a source of great fear and for liberals and religious conservatives filament the battles and in the press because of battle and so forth. and what does exist as a used to exist as a phenomenon in the for small part colleges. and it is something that can sort of be left alone in effect by the various faction political rights. but once it transcends that sort of very distinctive name matrix and become something that affects how silicon valley companies try to from the internet. how major state schools design their curriculum. how public schools defend their curriculum then it becomes a point of envelopment. nothing to be listening to our
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conversation and disagreeing with us about the relative stability of the u.s. would say that is stable until it's not. trump lost the election but supposedly the election admin favored more insanely close, they use on by some fractional number of votes. maybe that pushes sort of virtual narrative into collision with each other that eventually leads to real political crisis. so what you think about that kind of argument that basically ritualism is on different tracks. and until some moment of actual religion happens. and then the divergences fantasies actually lead to a civil war. bruno: and that argument has been used. that we are coming close that but it did not happen.
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a lot of people make that argument to explain why they were wrong. i think it's obvious that they were targeted as it conceivable for things could have turned wrong. i don't think so. i think precisely jeff today in america, so different from the past. this is something new that tangibly climbing or people just lost interest in trump. any of them. and he's losing millions of followers a week . a new version of separation of powers. but let me put it this way. one of the ultimate decisions. because this seems me politics is always dangerous and we know that . know that very well. the people do regard the other group as a threat and they are willing to fight to the death in order to win.
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so you have a scandinavian alternative where you just, everything they can be dangerous or problematic. it can work well but simply because the inputs are minor things. they don't awakening kind of passionate impact nothing of fundamental interest for that society. and not so critical of turkey because even though it is a trouble democracy, it's because of the input of them into that system are much more important rated by threatening and enhancing . cool so let's not rush to conclude that the better is just different. and then a third option, most ingenious and novel from a historical point of view. it allowed everything in, and then you virtualize it . turn it
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into something real. it is something that people experience. and sometimes the game can have consequences in the real world . can break a leg at a ballgame. but still is not a civil war. they're transforming things into a virtual theme. and therefore could be some consequences but not for the regime the regime survives much better. but i was a bit surprised by how quickly people seem to be moving on. and await the seem to have had a double consciousness. you see some of the trump supporters, their foaming at the mouth but then they go on down the street. and it's a possibility could happen in the future. but there's an awareness, deep down in consciousness that this
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is not real. it's a game of where playing and we have display it seriously. and as my most vivid impression of what is going on . can't get over the fact that all of this is virtual. ross: so just on that last point before we take up a couple of questions. that is my impression as well but it didn't seem like relative to the rest of the trump error there was something distinctive about that. may june and july in the united states that you had protests that had a much more violent edge. he did have the worst rights he was sent added at least since the early 1990s in terms of property damage and some deaths. you did have again sort of
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localized in the revision to the decadent society been working on . that they were more real than just tweeting of people on the internet. the really was some elite professional life creative people really did lose their jobs. it really didn't have sort of a moment where seem to be sort of overturning the systems. and substantiating new sort of idea of the people narratives and so on. my read on that has been the conditions of the pandemic and the lockdown created unusual pressures that sort of in a weird way pushed people so far into virtual is in the people sort of song in the opposite direction and came back out .
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but it did seem like if the contrast is when amy tony barrett was nominated in the supreme court . this was this henge moment in american government. given the powers of the supreme court . sort of an expectation that there was massive turmoil. none of that happened. but things proceeded is normal. i just wonder what you think about the contrast but also the particularity of our summer in the u.s. which wasn't did seem different from the virtual is some of the hera as a whole. bruno: okay i will talk about that and then turned to the question prayed independence, you compared to previous any people compare it to that they have any friends. kids are telling me this is very
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serious and survival of american democracy is at stake. in this what people were saying on the very heart left her for years. they're not aware. you cannot compare it to china. as long as we agree on that, that it is an immersive experience, and you have to balance the ideal any of emergence. if it is immersive, then we are back in denmark hundred think this the balance the u.s. has to figure out. finally we say virtual reality. this is very deep structure in american politics to the point that wyatt wasn't there a group. and they say because we've resisted it.
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we wondered by going out in voting but also by being vigilant and marshaling all kinds of stakeholders to join us. so were really in the realm of interpretation. and everyone actually says whether there wasn't going to be a coup because it was stopped. you may have a certain personal reference but there is no objective reality against which you can measure. i think we are both inclined to say there's never be a cook. but i am aware of the opposite argument that it didn't happen because of the resistance that what is in play. ultimately outside of the different narratives of the question. so that's all the way down i
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think when i call ritualism. ross: so that's a good segue to my first question previous my view was there was never going to be a co- because for any reasons. a group of particular because the nature of donald trump himself. his sort of two virtual to translate his authoritarianism into reality. to actually have regime change into the united states. it's our first question says as more generally, what tools do political leaders have to shape our political fantasies. maybe in more productive ways especially given the possibility that so much of this ritualism and fantasy seems generated from the bottom up. suet's is statement to mean in a virtual society personalized society. bruno: i think so far have a great example trump.
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some will say whether learn the wrong lessons. trump is not about having far right platform. he had no interest in applying that has about the promise of feeding directly into the fantasy life of voters in promising extravagant finances interdependency and that they would be able to pursue their wishes. but trump, no longer follow the rules of what a politician should say or behave. and now this just fantasy life and you don't have to follow the politics anymore. but i think he also was a reassuring figure. if you talk about and some of the republican things never going to become far right the third.
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and to revive him to be of more serious confident, will realize that he won because he was not serious. and if you try to do that you're going to be out in the first round of primaries. his so i think that's the way to do it. without being too real or too serious so that people know that in the end come the region is not safe. i do think one of the reasons the losses is not able to do this consistently over the last three years of his term. in some voters in the middle may have bought into the narrative there was a threat to the american democracy universalized. i think the techniques to be developed. was a genius.
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i think people will recognize it now when he's no longer a danger. ross: do you think there's a distinct human between productive and unproductive and virtuous and un- virtuous fantasy. you think you can say statesmanship inconsistent people not just enact whatever fantasy they want but enact fantasies and somehow induced to the good life. bruno: yes friday i would talk about how precisely his interest in this document fantasy. which is about the desires we walk into a supermarket and you don't wear a mask and he shunned everybody and you can do whatever you want. and there's a fantasy that can include other people perhaps other countries. for the world is complex.
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that is the model. in better options will be able to do this. and otherwise just hit irritability with the real world. where you hate the real world. see if not actually building it. ross: so again perfectly designed segue. asked whether you see ronald ragan is a precursor to trump and sort of foreshadowing a move to political ritualism. and i suspect the answer is yes the baby calling on what we were just say, could you also say that reagan may be more successful than trump in crafting a productive tendency like maybe we ended the cold war through productive fantasy event. assume a oh yes have any pages of the book and reagan. i'm absolutely and off.
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and don't think that people have understood quite well so far that it was the game he was playing the me put that way. i think he was unhappy precisely with the liberalism that limits our fantasies and ability to project a different kind of world. he was in the job of creating complex fantasies they could be taken for the real world. this is life and entrepreneurial life the way he transformed this into a national meth without doing anything really to reduce the size of the state or federal government. he was known in the job of transforming reality or family life he was able to reimagine the schools that had been under attack by liberalism. and to rebuild them as well.
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were still living inside of these myths. it has become in fact and after within these rules the reagan to some extent built . don't think it's a coincidence. there's so any fantasies fight him where he shows an awareness that this is what he's doing. louis changed operations in the white house to pursue the goal and they become like that for him. and he was able to do this. ross: so a question to raise fire argument where in certain ways your suggesting since america sort of coming into own in his practice of these politics, perhaps we talk about the indian the american century
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prohibit maybe is just beginning but at the same time, there's a question from daniel about europe and china. you're saying that in contrast that europe is sort of trapped in one kind of decadence where china is maybe imposing a uniform virtual reality in a sense. so what does that mean for cultural conflict. where china or what would have to happen for china and europe to affect america or for the u.s. to become. i think a lot of people hundred conservative years that america becomes like china. started the power that
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eventually poses a parting narrative through the power of virtual reality. the talk about of those scenarios. bruno: i'm a big believer in the simulation and is particular distinct. not going to converge. and all that they have in people's minds and citizens is so deep. were going to have different civilizations probes in it. europe is still pursuing the project of classical liberalism under new conditions . rules that are neutral. this is with the euro. union stands for. it's a new kind of way to pursue the whole project of the control the wrote state. in china and political power and authority at the center of political life. when they talked about the chinese country.
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chinese socialism characteristics is the rule of the chinese communist party. so you define political authority before even defining kind of principle. there different ways to relate to reality. it i think different political civilizations have different ways to relate to theology. in the american europe and china have fundamentally different ways. i no longer think that america is sort of pointing the way towards the future the others will follow. even in the interest of any people over the world are having with trump and the election. timmy looks like attraction to an exotic world. that is so different and looks so crazy. sometimes so fascinating. spent the two trying to copy or model yourself in america. think the interest now is the
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interest that you have an virtual or japanese peace ceremonies. precisely because it is so different and exotic. it's fascinating that you're interested not because as the case in the past that you think that is the future. and you have to follow it. ross: and is still some kind of zone of contested influence between these civilizations. because there is clearly some of it up between patterns of populism in the u.s. and western europe. you can see zones have north americans that they don't appreciate maybe between the u.s. and latin america these days. and then in the pacific rim, there are clearly ways which ritualism has manifested in video games and so on.
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vincent incredibly powerful and south korea and japan. so is curious are talking and terms about civilization. we now have one minute to go. one of the zones of context between these different models. bruno: i think there is zones of influence and potentially zones of transformation we could be shaped by other civilizations but the fundamental phenomenon, power rivalry where you try to become more powerful than rivals. and some zones, and the control of technology and whether you're better at fighting climate change. some forms of competition will be direct party and sometimes it will be a game. it and you want to be china with
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climate change rather than directly. his son has become impossible. ross: i want to thank everyone for tuning in whether you're turning and live or later party no one think bruno for a fascinating conversation. pillaging book tv on "c-span2". every weekend with the latest nonfiction books and authors. booktv on "c-span2", created by americans cable television company. today brought to you today to move or provide book tv is public service. both tv and primetime starts now. first, stanford university professor matthew claire examines how race and social economic status effect out the defendants are treated in u.s. courts. and then looking back at some of
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the over 400 rabbis who provided opening prayers two sessions of congress. and also tonight frank chose discussing the career former democratic senators sam of georgia. he discusses the loss of his two brothers during the war in afghanistan. in history professor kevin books at the reagan administration through the critical lens on the punk rock movement of the 80s. complete television schedule on your program guide. >> welcome and jennifer and the faculty director for comparative and race and ethnicity at stanford university. in each year the center selects three faculty fellows to do the research to honor . today's top modern a new book by matt claire, an assistant professor. natural and was trained at harvard university. in addition

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