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tv   Key Capitol Hill Hearings  CSPAN  March 11, 2014 8:00pm-10:01pm EDT

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not have been here a year ago stealing as senior policy analyst piquancy his work at aclu doesn't work or follow him on twitter. we appreciate you joining us this morning. >> on c-span2 tonight a senate confirmation hearing for nsa director nominee mike rogers. homeland security director j. johnson followed by his senate committee hearing on the freedom of the affirmation that. ..
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[inaudible conversations taking place] >> good morning. the committee is meeting to consider the nomination of selva, usaf for reappointment to the grade of general and to be commander, united states, transportation command and the nomination of michael rogers to be command of the u.s. cyber calm and director of the national security agency and director of the center security service. we welcome you and thank you for your years of service. and we thank your families who give up so much to enable you to
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serve. transcom, which is the military mobility, the navy sea lift and the army command is the leech of the mobility. transcom played a crucial role in supplying the operations in afghanistan and iraq. it has brought equipment home and we would be interested in how long we can wait for a bilateral agreement to be signed and meet the december 31st deadline for removing the people and equipment in the event we end up without an agreement. like the other elements of the department of defense, transcom is facing constant threats from cyber intrusions.
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it must be sensitive to be v vulnerble but we must be aware of everything. we will release a report on contractors and the extent about intrusion reaches transcom and other key entities. we welcome your thoughts on dealing with this ongoing program. we heard testimony from general alexander regarding a number of pressing issues facing the command. we look forward to hearing
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admiral rogers on many of those views. we look forward to the tools and data sources the forces will have to work with, the ability of the military services to manage the careers of cyber specialist and the steps that should be taken to ensure the reserve components are integrated into the the cyber mission. the committee will be interested in admiral rogers views on bulk conversation records, internet records and other nsa issues that are raising concern on
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privacy. we will like to know your reaction with respect to 215 telephone record call program. that they have not quote, this is the board saying this, identified a single instance involving a threat to the united states in which the program made a concrete difference in the outcome of a counter terrorism investigation close quote. we would be interested in knowing what stepped you would take if affirmed to assess the value and weigh the value. do you support the president's directive to modify the program so that bulk records are no longer held by the government while ensuring they can be
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accessed. and what is your requirement the government the must meet to require the search. thanks again to both of the nominees for being here, for your service to the nation. senator inhofe. >> di expressed by agreement to minimize the capabilities but despite the strides the lack of cyber deterance and policy left us open to cyber aggression. i am concerned about the events by iran that involved an enduring campaign on united states banks and another
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involving a critical navy intercept wonetwork. this is going on in places where the america grid and wall street are at great risk. the president is going to get serious. the transcom provides the lifeline for every command by enabling them to execute a wide array of missions from combat operations to relief to training exercises to supporting c partners. i am intereded in the viability of assessments. and general frazier testified last year that the number of
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cyber attacks against transcom had doubled from 45,000 in 2011 to nearly 100,000 in 2012. the committee has been investigating these incidents and it appears there are a number of factors that should be addressed to ensure they have the information necessary from its many contractors to defend networks and protect mission criteria data. i look forward to hearing from the nominees and how they will work together to correct this. this isn't something that many people don't know about. i don't draw a difference between cyber attack or military attack. we will talk about that during the questions. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator inhofe. we are delated to have senator
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kirk with us. >> i am here to introduce mike rogers to the committee. i have known mike rogers for almost 40 years. we were in the same home room in high school together. i worked for him when he was the head of intel as the joint chief of staff. i would say uke you cannot pick an officer with a stronger work ethic or detail orientation than mike. i want to say that his -- being a republican i could not reckon anyone better you could have picked for the job. that concludes by statement.
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>> thank you for that. the first question is we will ask is what did we know about the homework in home room? he is going to tell us secrets. thank you for being with us. we will call in order of them being listed. >> chairman levin, inhofe and members of had armed service committee, it is a great honor to appear to you as the commander of the united states transportation command. i want to that knows thank the members of the committee for their support throughout the last decade and have moved mo t mountains to support the sold r
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soldiers and it is because your continued support. i look forward at a working with you to navigate the transportation command. i am proud to introduce you to my wife of 34 years. she served in uniform for nine years and gives her time generously to support the amazing airman and their families that are part of air mobility command. she is the love of my life and apart from my mother the one of few who gives me the feedback i need who i step away from the center line. it is privilege to be here with mike rogers. i can think of no better person to serve in the capacity he is
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up for. if con firmed i look forward to working with the variety of people and the networks that make our nation successful. i appreciate the trust and confidence the president, secretary of defense and general dempsey but in me in considering this position. i am grateful to be here and look forward to the questions >> glad you introduced your family. i should have mentioned you are welcome to introduce family >> chairman levin, senator inhofe, and members of the committee, thank you for opportunity to stand here. i am honored the president has made me the director of the
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national agencies and i thank hagel and general dempsey for their confidence in my ability. i am joined by my wife dana. 30 years one evening, she took a chance on a then young lieutenant rogers that shows to show truly great things can h happen to a sailor on liberty. i want to thank her were her willingness to take on a greater set of challenges. the life we lead in uniform is more difficult for our spouses than it is on us. i am blessed to have a great partner. our sons are not with us, but one is serving duty and one is a hard-working college student.
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and paul silver is here and we had the pleasure of working together before and i can attest to his significant ability fi t firsthand. i look forward, if confirmed to addressing the cyber issues facing today and in the future. we face a growing array of threats from terrorist, criminal groups and hackers who are able to steal information and destroy networks in a matter that risks the security. they do it through a manmade environment and thraw through capabilities that are consta constantically changing. this is hard work. if confirmed as the commander of united states cyber command, my
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priority is to generate the capacity needed to work in this environment and provide a full range of options within the arena. i will partner with others in doing so. particularly are allieallies, partners in defense, and agencies across the government and the congress. i am mindful we are talking about two organizations but execute related to linked mission sets. each has the potential to make the other stronger and i will work to ensure each is appropriately focused. when there is differing opinions between them, i will make the call as the commander. i will also be every mindful we must do all of this in a manner
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that protects the civil liberties of the citizens. i will have the oversight mechanisms in place and i will be an active partner in implementing the changes by the president and my intent is to be as transparent as possible in doing so and in the broader execution of my dud duties if confirmed. i thank you for the commitment to the security of your nation. i believe in your and the missions you execute to defend the nation and its citizen. i am honored to be considered as your leader. and i want to thank keith alexander for his 40 years of service to the commission. he has made a huge contribution in this mission set and i thank
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him and debby for all they have given the nation. finally, let me conclude by thanking the men and women who have given me the love and support of living the treme i have had since i was a young boy. to those who have shaped me, to those who led, mentored or taught, sometime kicked me in the tail, i thank them. i realize i am here because of the efforts of so many others in my life. thank you for the opportunity to a appear before you and i look forward to your questions. >> we have standard said questions we ask and here they are. >> have you both adhered to laws gov rng conflicts of interest
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>> yes, sir. >> do you agree to give personal views? >> yest yes, sir. >> would any thing mess with the outcome of the service? >> no, sir. >> will you meet the deadlines for records and hearings? >> yes, sir. will you cooperate with briefers to congressional responses? >> yes, sir. >> would those witnesses be protected from their testimony or briefings? >> yes, sir. >> do you agree if confirmed to testify upon request for this committee? >> yes, sir. >> do you agree to provide documents into timely manner when requested or to consult with the committee for any good faith or denial of providing such documents. >> yes, sir. >> let's try seven minutes for
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the first round. i will start with you general. i asked consider this. -- how long can negotiations continue before transcom is at risk of getting cargo out of afghanistan if there is no bilateral security agreement and we have to leave afghanistan by the end of the year? >> senator, my undering from consulting with the staff on that question is that through the early fall we still have capacity in the variety of networks we are using to redeploy cargo from afghanistan to make the decision. i don't have a specific date but if confirmed i would get you one. >> the next question has to do
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with the intrusion -- the cyber intrusions and whether or not they affect dod information. is it not important that transcom know of cyber intrusions that can pose a risk to operations even if they don't immediately affect dod data? >> yes, sir. the network consist of logistic providers. 90% is air mobility and traveling on unclassified networks. maintaining the security through appropriate mechanisms is critical to success. we have to assure of what we
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pass on the networks. so we have a stipulation they provide us with intrusions on their networks. i am not aware of the details you speak about but i look forward to working with your staff on them if confirmed. >> the president ordered to a transition to end 215 meta data collection program as it exist to quote prosever the capabilities that we need close quote but without the government collecting and holding the data on call detail records. what in your view are there essential capabilities that need to be preserved in transitions
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the program? >> sir, there is an ongoing process to work through that. i am not part of it. but one thought would be the idea of speed. the ability to query to data to work the new mechanisms we will put in place in a time playmall. >> do you agree the government doesn't need to hold the meta data to determine this information? in other words, it is the possible a third party could be assigned to hold the data and then have the service providers keep the data on the other hand? >> i believe with the right on construct we can make that work.
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>> would it be limited to the service providers or would you want a third party? >> i think they are all under consideration and either scenario could work; whether a service provider or a third party there is challenges but i am confidant we can do so >> the privacy and civil liberty board and the president's technology group characterized 215 as useful but not critical. and the oversight board said quote we have not identified a single instance involving a threat to the united states in which the program made a concrete difference in the investigation. you have an assessment of how -- first the utility of the program and how it compares to the level of concern the american people
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have about its perceived impact on privacy. >> sir, first as a nominee, i am not in a position to comment on the value of 215. but if confirmed i will be able to do so. i believe one of the most important functions is to articilate just that: the value of the effort. >> do you have an opinion as to whether or not there has been an instance involving a threat to the united states in which 215 has made a difference? >> nothing specific. i have not had a chance to sit down and review the events. but if my memory is correct, it was outlined a number of
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instances in which he alexander thought 215 generated value. >> all right. security agency. have a this is also for you, admiral, do you think the department of defense is doing enough to provide capabilities to the defense cyber units by exploited commercial technology? >> i will use my own experience as the navy component to united states cyber command where we have a continual outreach to the industry sector. and there is an aggressive effort to do so. >> thank you. senator inhofe. >> thank you, mr. chairman. we have expressed our concern about iran and the threats they
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oppose to us and that our intelligence and classified intelligence as far back as 2007 np indicated they would have a capability by 2015 with a wep within delivery and it was more expressed in a report classified by intelligence in 2010 refirming their suspicious thoughts earlier. i have been concerned about that. we have a president that thinks there is an opportunity to get them to join the global economy and reform their way. it is said they were able to infiltrate the computer network and raising questions they were able to access the blood stream
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of the navy network. i am going to quote from the report. quote iran's navy hacking was extensive. it took four months to purge them from the biggest unclassified network. if true, such an attack would be profound but it is unclear, what, if anything, the ad munstration would do in response to such behavior. would a similar penetration by war planes be treated with ambivalence? i would hope not. admiral rogers, cyber command means you are responsible for defending navy network so this happened under your watch, correct? >> yes, sir, it did
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>> what the consequences of the iranian nations in the space some >> we never categorized who penetrated the network. i would be glad to talk about this in a classified session. >> this has been discussed in an unclassified session for a long time. we are torque talking about iran. go ahead. >> i am sorry, not to my knowledge. an opponent was able to gain access to the system. in response, i generated a requirement to push them out hof the network and do a review of the entire network and use this as an opportunity to drive change within my service. >> what is the administration doing now in response to this attack? >> i am not in a position to comment. >> my opening statement, i
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quoted general frazier to testified last year that the numberf of cyber attacks went from 45,000 in 2011 to nearly 100,000 in 2012. does that concern you? and to what level? >> my current position is their mobility command commander. i am aware of those statistics and we have taken aggressive action to secure the networks. the nature of the network requires us to have access from their networks as well. we work with those contractor to security the networks. so the number of attacks is more the number of probes and attempts to get into the network.
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is confirmed for the position we worked that issue hard with general rogers team at cyber com and with our 24th air force team which is the designated unit. >> when he had a hearing with general sanders, who we have become good friends, he was asked who a cyber attack is an act of war and to explain the sort of actions an advisary might take he answered be believes if it destroyed military, government operations or the ability to operate, you dross crossed the line.
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do you agree with that characterization? >> i agree. >> do you agree they crossed the line? >> who is the they you are referring to? >> when general alexander was asked who a cyber attack crosses the line and becomes an act of war and affected the ability to operate, do you degree with that characterization and do you degree we crossed that line? >> no, i don't believe be crossed the line. >> do you agree the number of attacks doubling doesn't properly express our deterant against these attacks?
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does this concern you we have doubled in the number of cyber attacks on us? i apologize. is your question t >>o is your question for the general or myself? >> i am saying general frazier testified the number of cyber attacks on transcom, or period, increased from 45,000 to a 100,000 into period of a year, isn't that concerning? are we not doing the job we should be doing? >> it is concerned. i think it is reflected in the level of investment they are maki making. cyber is one area they remain committed to growth and capability. >> i believe a lot of stuff i get from the unclassified media that iran is active in this area. i am concerned about their
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capabilities and i have expressed that concern. it appears me statements we have quote if iran seize this opportunity and joins the blobel global community, we can chip in at the joint forces. we have an enemy out there. a few years ago, no one knew what cyber attack was. but now we understand they have been as critical and damaging as an attack with weapons on this country. i think you all agree with that. >> yes, sir. >> senator udall. >> thank you for your service for the nation.
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admiral rogers, i noticed you said the government could continue to gather records and serve as a bulk alternative. and you wrote the 215 program started quote after a gap to fill something from 911 since a high jacker made a call to a known safehouse in yemen. it saw the call, but couldn't see it was coming from an individual into the united states. i am concerned that 215 program could have prevented 911 and i want to set the record straight. as the 911 commission pointed out, the cia knew about him but didn't tell the fbi. so the argument this could have
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been the key to identifying him doesn't stand up. i don't know why the nsa couldn't have gotten the authorization to see if this number was used in the united states. i am sure you will agree the constitutional is the source of security. we can focus on terrorist and spies without infringing on the rights of americans. the status quo must change and i look forward to working with you on them. if i might, in looking ahead, i want to turn into the 702 program and ask a policy about the authorities under section 702. as to your understanding, nasa can search through data using united states personal
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identifiers without probably cause. you replied the nsa's court approved procedures only permit searches using u.s. identifiers for valid foreign intelligence purposes and over the insight of the justice department. the statues written to collect the american communications and the collection of foreigners to be located overseas but it is intended to be foreigner's communication not americans. but declassified court documents saw the nsa sought and obtained authority to go through the searches and conduct them. my question is simple: have any of those searches been conducted? >> i am not in the position to answer that as the nominee.
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but if you would like me to come back to you if confirmed to address that i would be glad to s s do so. >> you might recall clapper was asked this and didn't believe an open forum was the place to discuss this. we tried get a simple answer yes or no to the question. we want an answer because it relates to american's privacy. can you commit to answer the question before the committee votes on your nomination? >> i believe one of my challenges as the director, if confirmed, is how we engage the american people, and by extension their representative, in a dialog in which they have a level of comfort as to what we are doing and why that is not a challenge for those of us with
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an intelligence background. but i believe the takeaway has been as a senior intelligence leader, i have to be capable of communityicating -- communicating -- a way of showing why it is possible. if it comes to the how and the specifics those are best addressed in classified sessions. but i have to be able to speak in broad terms in a way that most people can understand. i look forward to that chammich. >> i look forward to working with you and rebuilding the confidence. let's turn to cyber for the last half of my time. before i ask specific questions, i don't want to steal senator mccain's thunder, which is
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impossible, but he has a creative idea for a special committee on cyber security so we can cut through jurisdiction tension that exist. but you noted in your comments that we have to work to develop and train a significant number of highly capability cyber personal to meet the nation's needs. and there is no doubt if we are going to achieve dominance we have to have those personal. we have done it in the physical world, the kinetic world, and we can do it in cyber space. but do you believe we are doing enough to cultivate cyber professionals? the airforce is giving cadets the opportunity to fly small aircraft in the college years and enter familiar in the field of flying an airplane or helicopter and i am afraid we are not giving that level to the
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cyber program. should we invest in hands-on opportunity? >> i have worked with our own naval academy on doing that. there is a baseline cyber course requirement for everyone to graduate now and that is a new requirement laid on in the last couple years. >> i look forward to working with you. we will achieve dominance and i think both of us agree. thank you for willing to sever in this. >> thank you. senator mccain. >> thank you. admiral rogers, and chairman alexander when asked said because of the overlapping jurisdictions of many committees
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of congress he thought a select committee to investigate this issues, that covers a wide spectrum, would be a good idea, do you have a view? >> steps that would try -- >> do you have a view on a select committee? would you or would you not agree a select committee would be a good idea? >> yes, sir. >> thank you. general, are you on track to remove all of the necessary equipment and armorments from afghanistan by the end of 2014 that you are tasked to do? >> yes, sir. >> you are confidant? >> yes, sir. >> you are on track right now? >> yes, sir. >> thank you.
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admiral, i wants i want to bring up the issue of iranian hack of navy computers. according to the wall street journal article, the hack took more than four months to resolve raising concern among lawmakers about security gaps exposed by the attack. the hackers were able to remain in the network until this last november and that contradicts what was told to the journal when it was first reported in september. at the time officials told the payable -- paper -- the intruders were removed. quote it was a real big deal and a significant penetration showing a weakness in the system. can you help about the committee? >> it was a significant penetration which is one reason
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why multiple updates to to staffers on the committee so we can learn from this and make sure it doesn't happen again. i directed an operational response that was broader than saying they are just not there anymore. i wanted to drive change with this. i put a longer-term effort in place than if i said i want to remove them. >> and the damage done in your view was significant? quote. >> i am not sure i would agree with significant but it is of concern. in this case, they didn't opt to engage in any destruction behaviors. my concern from the beginning is what if they decided that was there intent. >> i thank you.
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admiral, we have a problem from the standpoint those of us that feel our ability to monitor the behavior of possible attackers on the united states of america is vital. and mr. snowden has done significant damage. and i quote from poles in a january survey where 57% of americans branded him as a quote whistle blower and 34% called him a trader. a fox news pole taken found 68% of americans were glad to know about the nsa program snowden revealed while cbs survey found those disapproving of the conduct out numbers 54-31.
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but there is a significant number of americans that blue him as a whistle blower and many significant portions of americans, as a patriot, approve of the conduct. what do you think we need to do to counter that impression the american people have when i am sure you and i are in agreement this individual violated an oath he made not to reveal this information and damaged our ability to defend this nation >> yes, sir, i would agree with your assessment. there is a couple things. the idea of transparency as senator udall mentioned. the idea we have we have to have a dialogue that talks about whau we are doing and why. we have ensure strict accountability and we have to make sure we follow the processes appropriately and when we make a mistake, if we fail to
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meet the requirements, we are up front about the how and why. >> do you have any thoughts about the allegations that the fisa courts are a rubber stamp for the administration? >> i don't believe that to be the case. >> you believe they are exercises sufficient oversight? >> yes, sir. >> so you do appreciate the fact that we have at least with a large number of americans and people around the world a significant problem with the pr aspect of the work that you and your organization will be doing? >> yes, sir, which is why my personal opinion is the fisa structure worked well and i am open to the view that instilling great greater confidence we should look at improving that.
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>> if i had a recommendation for you it would be as much as possible given the aspects of con national security and maybe give speeches in various venues where you could explain better to the american people what you are doing or perhaps not what you are doing but why you are doing it. and these threats, including this one that hacked into the navy on your watch, which i doubt if hardly americans are aware of. i don't think americans are aware of the extent of the penetration that is not only accomplished but being attempted by people around the world. do you agree? >> yes, sir, i think you are
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correct. >> senator blumenthal? >> admiral, the whitehouse announced the framework to establish a security guide for organizations involved in running critical infrastructure and this effort and framework standardizes the cyber security to identify and protect and detecting, responding and recovering from potential intrusions. how effective do you think this framework will be in protecting us from cyber attack? and what additional measures should the senate, or the nsa,
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take? >> sir, i think it is step in the right direction. but i do believe in the end, a form of legislation that is addressing the requirement and the need to share information as well as the addressing the issues of setting standard for critical infrastructure for the nation in the long run is the right answer. if confirmed i look forward to work wilderness generati working with host of other people. >> i agree legislation will be strongly. there are bipartisan efforts to to achieve this. and some have been opposed by the representatives of the business community on the ground there is no need or urgency or other reasons i think are species. i look forward to working with you. how urgent do you think it is we have this legislation? >> the sooner the better.
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it is only a matter of time before we start to see more destruction activity. >> are there areas of the private industry you are concerned about that you regard as most vulnerable? >> there is core infrastructure that is critical as a nation and in unclassified form i would be leery of saying what was the greatest. >> if the chairman does have a briefing in another setting, a more classified session, that maybe an area i would like to explore with you. let me shift to the role of the national guard in cyber security. the cyber com commander general alexander talked about the
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critical value of the national guard as a resource and the role it could play in expanding the military cyber warfare and defense capabilities. do you agree with him? how would you define the valule the national guard can bring to the department? >> yes, sir, i do agree. there is an analysis right now being done to addresst this and if confirmed i will dig deeper into this. one of my takeaways is the naval commander is this is about how you build an integrative team that uses the power and exper s expertise of the team. the reserve structure we have used has been effective to us. scombl >> and frequently the members of the reserve or army national
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guard bring capabilitiecapabili training and education and skills that are very volleybaal. >> yes, sir. >> turning to another area, the use of contractors. and following up on the important questions asked by my colleague, senator mccain, just to state the obvious here was a contractor entrusted with responsibility that never should have been and american of us are concerned by the scope and scale thof use of private contractors ever n to screen and evaluate other contractors. are you concerned? >> yes, sir, i share your concern. if confirmed this is an area i need to ask hard questions of why we are here, what led us here, and are we comfortable with the role of contractors.
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>> are their obvious defects you can see right away? >> nothing comes to mind immediately. in my current duty this isn't the same issues on the navy side. >> do you think that concern is shared widely in the intelligence community? >> i would believe so. ld believe so. >> general, if i can ask you a question. a chairman began by asking questions about how quickly we need to make determinations about the presence in afghanistan. what is your assessment now about how flexible in determining the timeframe there? in drawing down and withdrawing equipment and personal power we have? >> senator, today i would say we have the greatest flexibility we
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have had in the past several months. but as each day passes, the options decrease and there is a limited capacity to bring the equipment and personal out. i will commit to consulting with general austin and dunford assessment of the limits of the networks. in transcom, our ubligation is making sure transportation is where it is for whatever comes at us. >> thank you both. >> senator chambliss. >> thank you for your service, commitment to freedom and we aprecate the great job you do. i want to make a comment for the record, first, admiral rogers,
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are regard to comments senator udall made, i don't want to leave a false impression if we had 702 and 215 in place in 2011, there is a strong probability we would have been able to determine that a major attack was going to occur. there is the probability that we would have picked up on conversation between midhar and those in yemen with who he was planning attack. knowing that he was in the country versus knowing he was in communication with terrorist planning an attack with two different things. we didn't have 215. we didn't have 702. we knew a phone call came to the united states.
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we didn't know it went to san diego. we would have gleamed from these programs more information and there is strong probability within the intel community we might have picked up on that. so i don't want to make a comment on that, but i want to make sure the record reflects the actual facts on the ground relative to this. now, admiral rogers, we discu discussed something senator mccain mentioned earlier and that is with respect trying communicate the programs to the american people is going to be difficult. he mentioned doing speeches. and i think we agree that is part of it.
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but i would like for you to elaborate more on what do you think you think we can do to show transparency and let the american people understandhow the programs work. >> i think we can communicate more with why we are doing this. what led us to these decisions and it needs to be broader than the director of national security agency. there is a lot more aspect than just the intelligence piece. this boils down to an assessment of risks in terms of the security as a nation and our rights as individuals. we value both have to come up with a way to enable us and make sure both side of the risk coin are addressed. there is a threat out that aimed
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to do us harm and want to defeat what this nation represents. >> you are exactly right. it is unfortunate general alexander been out there to express this. he did a good job, but had the president been out there with him, he would have a better underi undering -- understanding on the american people -- and the information on what is clecks collected with the information and accessing personal information on any single american. it is simply extremely difficult and requires the same process
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that you would have to go through if you were a u.s. attorney seeking to get information on individual american. ... to do is look at the makeup of the court as well as the decisions. some of them will be made public. i think that is a good idea. as long as we do not real sources -- reveal sources. administrationhe did not give general alexander the kind of support that they pretty discerning on my part. i am hopeful. yesterday,ned to you i have expressed this to the administration. i hope they will give you more support in explaining these programs than they have given ral exande
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i have confidence matt that maybe they'll give you more support. let's talk about information sharing. as you know we have been work only a cyberbill for years now, and we're getting very close to an agreement within the intelligence committee between the chairman and myself on a cyber bill that is needed. the last remaining obstacle is the immunity provision or liability protection provision. would you talk for a minute about your opinion regarding how necessary liability protection is to companies who will share privileged and personal information if we're truly going to have a program that works relative to cyber. >> i'm not a lawyer, but my sense is, it's a critical element in any legislation. i believe to be asksful have to
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provide the corporate partneres we share information with, some level of liability protection. >> and do you think that firms will participate in the sharing of information if they're not granted pretty much blanket liability protection? >> i would think they'd be much less inclined to do so without it. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> senator donnelly. >> the chairman mentioned an aural in the "new york times" today, and i thought one of the interesting quotes was, where they said why would somebody want to be the head of cybercom, and it remind me of paul low 13 and said this could -- apollo
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13. we're giving you the football and expecting big things from both of you on this. and i wanted to ask you, general, in regards to what we have seen in ukraine and the dealings we have had with russia before, are you making alternate plans in terms of transcom as to the work we do with russia? are you gaming out worst-case see -- scenarios. >> not being in the seat, i'd have to say, as confirmed, that's a priority. is a the air component and looking with the transcom director of -- we have been building alternative plans. the northern distribution network consists of five different options how to move cargo in and out of afghan. so we'll have to look at using other options than overflight or
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transsilt through russia should the conflict the ukraine couple. >> i recommend we get working on that right away in light of what we have seen going forward these days. admiral, when you look at what happened with mr. snowden, i know we have done reviews. have you continued to look and and what-if about this or that in regards to where we are now, our operations now, to make sure we are not going to face this again internally? >> as the nominee i have not done that for cyber or nsa. >> have you thought that through? >> if confirmed, yes, sir. need to ask ourselves what be the indicators that would highlight to us that in fact would point out -- now we're seeing changes in behavior and how to change that to stay ahead of the threats that face us as nation.
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>> i would suggest that one of the first things you do is sit down and determine what policies -- where did we go off the highway? how do we fix it? how do we square it away? one of the areas of interest to me is contractors. and i guess, again, you're not in the position yet, but why is it that we have contractors in those positions as opposed to perhaps military personnel or other government personnel who are expert in those areas? is it a lack of individuals who can fill those positions? >> i can't speak to the specifics of mr. snowden, the function he was fulfilling, why that was chosen to be a contractor vice government, but i think it's reflective of a trend over the last decade or so where we look at the size of government and the size of our
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work force, some decisions were made that perhaps some of the functions could be executed on a contractor basis by versus using permanent government employee. i always believe what you should use contractors for are those functions that are either so specialized that you don't have the capability or skill resident within the work force, or it is prohibitively expensive to try to achieve that capable, but what we consider to be core operational functions, those need to be government. >> i guess in regards to mr. snowden's area, will there be a review through all of these contractors, as to what is core to what we need to do, and when we regard and review expense, i guess the next question is, what is the expense of what we're dealing with now, with the situations created by mr. snowden's conduct?
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>> i apologize. i don't know the answer. >> i understand. i'm trying to lay out, here's some things as we move forward that we look at. mr. snowden also remarked recently, the u.s. government has no idea what i have, and will not know what i have, and they'll find out as it goes on. in fact. not his exact words but when we look at ukraine, one concern that has to come up is how much of mr. putin's actions are based on knowledge that may have been given to him by mr. snowden, and how good a handle do we have at this point on what he has and does not have? >> we have an in-depth analytic evident going on. i have not been party to the review but have seen some of the initial work, which is highlighting where the data he took came from.
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we tried to identify exactly what the implications are of what took. that will take a period of time to finish. >> in another area, it would be remiss of me not to ask you about supply chain integrity. something of concern for me. counterfeit parts. how are we going to partner with industry, how are we going to work together with our intelligence officials and others, to secure the integrity of the supply chain of what we have? we see showers fit parts in missiles, in planes, and it is an extraordinarily dangerous situation, and i was wondering what your plans were to try to get this squared away. >> senator, our obligation is to works the distribution process owner. part of the obligation is to work directly with the defense
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logistics agency on the issue of supply chain management and integrity of the supply chain. it's out of the lane i'vein' for the last year and a half. it is one of the areas that hive commit teed spend time with, with admiral at doa to get at the details of the supply chain integrity process. it's more than just the data. it is the ability of counterfeiters to bring to that market parts that appear to be genuine but in fact aren't, so it's physical issue as well as a data security issue. it goes right to the heart of our industrial capacity and ownership of intellectual rights and be able to produce the products or medical tear use -- military in battle. >> we're one counterfeit part away from disaster. thank you very much. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, mr. donnelly.
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senator ayotte. >> thank you to you and your family for their support and sacrifices. general selva, with regard to dods air refueling capability, how fortunate our national security? >> senator, the capacity of air mobility command to operate at u.s. transcome speed to provide refueling around the world is critical to be able to move our forces to places they need to be. the air force, as you have probably heard over months and years, talks about global vigilance, global reach, and global power. tankers make us global. >> i'm really pleased, we -- that the 157th air refueling wing appeased -- the new hampshire air national guard is the top air national guard unit to receive the new tankers, the
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kg46-a. we had vary positive public hearing for the basing of the ck46-a last week in new hampshire. so i wanted to ask you, in your role as commander of'm -- to be air mobility command what is your assessment of the refueling wing, how they performed and how important is the guard in all of this capability as we go forward? >> senator, the 157th has a exteriored heritage in the tanker world and they're a high performing organization. they're one of the ewans to which we have appended an active duty unit and the unit is performing quite well. the base and corrupt exist in an 'er of a high demand for tanker services and as a result their performance speaks for itself. they're a great unit, and we look forward to being able to base the kc46a. pegasus there. >> fantastic.
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you're going to get a very positive outcome. the whole community is really excited, and very supportive of having the new tanker there. i look forward to working with you on that. it's incredibly important to our national security. i also wanted to ask you, i know that senator donnelly asked you about the issue of -- i don't know how specific you got into it -- the northern distribution network with regard to our retrograde from afghanistan, and in light of what is happening in the ukraine, we are, as you know, the president, many of us, are pushing for further economic sanctions 0, other types of sanctions against russia for their invasion of crimea, and if the russians were to take retaliatory action to shut down the northern distribution network with regard to the transit operations on those roads, what impact would that have to us and how would we
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address it? i think it's something we have to understand and be prepared to address. >> yes, ma'am. if the russians were to take action to constrain our access to the russian segments of the northern distribution network, we have other options to move that cargo in and out of afghanistan. the singular item that moves across that network that would concern me at this point is the subsis stance cargo in the form of food and noncombat articles. i'm told about 20% of the subsistence cargo is moved through that net work, so we have several options in the northern streaks network that do not include transiting russia. >> if for some reason -- obviously i hope they wouldn't take that action but we'd be prepared to use other options if we had to and could do so. >> yes, senator, we would. >> thank you, i appreciate it. admiral rogers, thank you for taking on at a very challenging
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time this important position. last week it was reported in the press that russia is using cyber attacks against the ukrainian telecommunication system to block the ukrainian leadership from assessing -- accessing the country's phone network. to what extent do you believe russia is conducting cyberattacks against ukraine and what could the u.s. do to help the ukraine better defend itself against attacks from russia? >> ma'am, in an open and classified forum, i'm not prepared to speak on a nation state's behavior. cybersecurity has been an independent the past, in ukraine, syria, georgia, a norm. as we work to partner with others to develop norms of behavior and expectations for what is acceptable and what is not, examples like this highlight to us, i think, what
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is not acceptable. as we work with the ukrainians and other nations to attempt to figure out what is the best way too address them, whether at the ukrainians ask for specific technical assistance. we have to work through everything on a case-by-case basis. >> do you believe we should help our allies if they're receiving cyber attacks and work with them to combat the attacks. >> yes, ma'am. >> that's personality particularly with what is happening in the ukraine that we're active in this area in countering any type of actions by the russias itch wanted to ask you about the department of defense's vulnerability overall to a cyberattack; in january of 2013 the defense science board issued a task force report entitled "resilient military systemses" the report concluded the united states cannot be confident or critical information technology systems will work under attack from a sophies tick indicated and well-resourced opponent,
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utilizing cybercapabilities in combination with intelligence capabilities. in other words we're not confident our military systems would work if we're attack bade pierce-to-peer adversary. do you share the assessment? >> i certainly share that concern, which is one reason why i believe creating a defensible architecture has to be the moe important. the network structure of today reflects a different time and place. have experienced that first hand on my current duty in the navy. i have watched that challenge across the entire department. it's why the joint information environment is so critical for us. we have to get to a defensible architecture. >> and we have to work with you on that. there's been a lot of discussion about edward snowden here today. do you believe that the disclosures that he made have put american -- potentially put at risk the lives of americans
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and our allies 0 or at greater risk because he released this type of classified information. >> yes, ma'am. >> so yes, the answer to that. >> yes. >> i think that people need to understand that. that he has put potentially at risk american lives and the lives of our allies. that is very, very important for people to understand in terms of what we're addressing and dealing with and how we characterize his behavior. thank you both. thank you both. >> thank you. senator king. >> thank you, senator. it's always good to see you again. if i was in an airplane out of gas over the north atlantic i would call the guys from pangor. forking forking -- the 101st 101st could take care of you adequately. as you look across the broad range of commercial assets, military assets, that transcome
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employs cross the globe, that would you feel are the greatest risks and vulnerabilities to transcom today, to execute its responsibilities, and how about the vulnerability of commercial carriers to events like cyberintrusions? what do you see -- going into this new job what's going to keep you awake at night? >> senator, think there's probably two things that worry me the most over the coming couple of years. the first is, once we have completed whatever retrograde operation happens in afghanistan, whether we have residual force or no force, the demand signal for lift, surface and air, will diminish significantly. we have seen a 50% reduction in the requirement for sustainment cargoes into and out of afghanistan. combater articles as well as regular sustainment. that has an implication for our
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organic fleets, sea lift, surface, and our commercial partners whose networks we access to make the entire transportation network work. so a return to a more stable environment has some negative readiness implications across the enterprise. we're studying those in all of the organic and commercial sectors of the market, to try to understand those implications. they have significant impacts on the commercial cargo carriers, sea lift and air lift, whether have been an integral part of the network. >> what percentage of transcom's assets are organic versus commercial at this moment? >> that's a difficult number to quantify, but i'll take a stab at it. roughly 40% of our capacity is organic. in the air environment, and
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about 50%, if we access all of the available assets through the civil reserve air fleet, would be brought to us by our commercial partners. >> as the demands of afghanistan diminish, there is kind of an industrial base issue here in terms of the commercial carriers? are they going to go away? are they going to be able to find other business? is there a risk of not having the capacity when we need it? >> there are two dynamics that play, senator in that environment. one is the health of the airline industry as a whole, both commercial and passenger carriers and two segment within that industry, charter and scheduled carriers, that the decline in the demand signal on those commercial carriers will change the economics of that industrial segment. the second thing that is changing is the very nature of commercial charter cargo across all of the global economy.
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with the introduction of large aircraft with large cargo bay busy below the passenger decrees we now see commercial passenger carriers re-entering the charter cargo market, and that has changed the dynamic of our civil reservary fleet partners, and we have to understand the impact of that change in the economy on their capacity to be with news crisis. >> that's an issue we have to watch as it evolves. >> yes, sir. to be fair we have an ongoing study. we're bat year into working with our commercial partners to understand the economic dynamics of what is changing in the cargo and passenger markets. we're right now in a three-month period of receiving their comments. we owe this committee a report in mid-june, if i understand correctly, on the outcome of that discussion. >> thank you. admiral rogers, i'm going to ask a question i don't think you're prepared to answer but may ask
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it again in a year. i'veen in a number of hearings both in intelligence and this committee, on cyberissues, cyber chant, nsa. how can you possibly do both of these jobs? >> there is no doubt a challenge and i'll be in a much better position to look back and say how hard has it been and what have been the challenges. i believe where we are right now, many of their missions and functions for intertwined and related that to not do it this way would create real concern, and i say that right now in my current duties on the navy i work for general alexander as cyberand nsa and i have experienced these same challenges -- >> you understand over the palls year both jobs have grown in responsibility and in -- you have to be a spokesman, have to manage, and i just think it's
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something that we're going to really have to think about along with the administration, going forward. i understand that desire to have it in one person, but, boy, i would think running the nsa itself is more than a full-time job. >> i will be busy, sir. >> one of the major issues we have been discussing again for the past year and a half, actually for the past years before i was here, is the necessity of some kind of cyber legislation that allows better coordination between the private sector and the federal government. how do you assess the importance of that kind of legislation coming out of this congress? >> i believe that legislation is a key for our future. we have to change the current dynamic. >> well, i certainly hope people are listening around here. ever since i've been here everybody has been saying that, but doesn't -- my father used to say if you drove straight at the pentagon it kept getting further away and that's where we are
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with this legislation. everybody talking it but i hope you'll work with us to develop the legislation in the multiple committees with jurisdiction. i believe one of our greatest vulnerabilities is cyber attack. i think the nest pearl harbor will be cyber, and the problem it we're more vulnerable than many other places. it's asymmetrical disadvantage because we're so advanced in terms of our linked up network to society. how do we prevent that -- what are the tools and are we where we should be in i certainly don't want to have hearing, a set of hearings here, about why we were asleep at the switch. >> i think clearly we're not where we want to be. we're generating capability, generating capacity, and those are all positive steps in the right direction, but in the end i believe we have got to get to
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some idea of the deterrence within the cyber arena. >> i think you're absolutely right, and deterrence -- we have the whole strategy of deterrence on the nuclear side and we have to develop a strategy of deterrence on the cyber side, if somebody comes into our networks, they're going to have some serious problems with their network. thank you, admiral. >> thank you senator king. senator lee. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thanks to both of you for joining us today and for your service to our country. admiral rogers, i thank you in particular for visiting with me in my office. i appreciated the opportunity to discuss those important issues. there does have to be a balance struck between achieving our national security goals and protecting the constitutionally guaranteed rights of american citizens. ultimately i agree with my
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friend, senator udall, that properly understood, these two things are the same thing. our security lies in our constitutional protections, and so we can't overlook constitutional protections in the interest of national security without compromising other good deal of what is embodied in our national security interests. in our well-intended efforts to recover and move forward past september 11, 2001, we have at times tried to strike a balance in a way that i find troubling. as i've stated before i have some deep-seated concerns with some of the things that have been revealed in recent months to the public. things that previously were known only to members of congress and other people with the right security clearance
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within the government. i worry about the nsa's surveillance and metadata collection programs and the risks that such programs could pose to the constitutionally protected rights of american citizens. the fourth amendment stands to a safeguard those rights, and and even if one assumes for purposes of this discussion that currently the only people employed at the nsa are people with only our best interests at heart, we still run a risk, even if that assumption is made, that at some point in the future, whether it's a week from now, a month from now, year from now, ten or 20 years from now, unless we have the right safeguards in place, those powers will be abused. they will be abused with respect to american citizens.
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and particularly given the fact nsa's mission is related to foreign intelligence gathering. we need to make sure we protect american citizens in their constitutionally protected rights. >> so, admiral rogers, if confirmed, how would you work to protect the constitutionally protected rights of american citizens while doing your job? >> yes, sir. i would attempt to be as transparent as possible with the broader nation what we are doing and. why i would try to ensure a sense of accountability and what the national security agency does. we're given, if confirmed, the nation places a great deal of trust in this organization. it has an incredibly important mission. a mission that involves attention in our society, given the fact that the fundamental right to the individuals are so foundational to our very concept as a nation. i welcome a dialogue on this topic. it's important for us as a
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nation. i look forward to being part of that dialogue, and as we have previously discussed i'm committed to trying to be a good partner in that effort. >> i understand that a certain level of confidentiality must almost on unavoidably surround many of the nsa programs that might be of concern to the american people to ensure their effectiveness and to keep our enemy actors from working around our systems. but the public has developed a certain distrust of many of those programs inch discussing this concept with senator mccain you mentioned that there might be a range of options available to us. can you describe what some of those options might look like, in balancing the need for confidentiality on the one hand in order to protect our programs, and the need for transparency on the other?
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>> i'd be looking at what are the mechanisms we use to assess the value portion of this, and how can we do this potentially in a more public way? i'm not -- i haven't fully formed my own thought inside this regard but i think it's something that is incredibly important and is very specific to the duties of the director of the nsa, if confirmed, the ability to be able to lead an honest and open dialogue about the value of these efforts as we try to move forward. also i said i'm not in the job yet. i need to get much smarter. i'm committed to doing so. >> president directed that the government start to transition out of having the government itself hold on to the bulk metadata collected pursuant to section 215 of the patriot act, and give you an update on how that process is going and how it might unfold. >> it is -- as a nominee i have
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not been part of the process so i -- i know it is ongoing. the president set he deadline of 28th of march, indicating he want it feedback the best way to move forward. the issue i have -- that is among the many that is important to me as we move furford and figure out what this betts way, how do we address the idea of speed, the ability to query the data in a way that protects the rights of the individual and enables to us get answers in a quick, rome time -- reasonable time period. >> president obama stated in a speech in january the following i directed the attorney general to work with the foreign intelligence surveillance court so that during this transition period the database can be queried only after a journal dined north case of a true emergency. what do you think might constitute a true emergency in this context.
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>> potential loss of life, hostage, criminal type of scenarios. >> i assume that in those scenarios, that three there would have to be a time component, an urgency component, for that qualify. >> i would think so. >> not a mere inconvenience to the government personnel involved. but some practical reason that would make it impossible rather than just inconvenient to go to the fisa court. >> inconvenience is clearly not the standard intended here. >> ill see my time has expired. thank you very much. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you senator lee. senator manchin. >> congratulations on your nominations. i read your resumes. quite impressive. and thank you for your service to our great country. i want to acknowledge that the passing on sunday march 9th of one of your fellow air force
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officers in one of your fellow comrades at the air force academy and the passing of major general stewart. we're very sorry for that and a loss for all of us. if i can, general selva, the equipment in iraq, where did it go? the equipment we -- how much did we leave behind? where did it go? and that leads right into what we're going to do in afghanistan. i'm hearing we're going to leave so much stuff behind and from a standpoint of coming from a state of west virginia, kind of watching its ps and q's pennies and nickels and dimes, how is that fair? >> i'm not in a position to comment on what we left behind in iraq, but in -- >> i wasn't party to the -- >> could you maybe -- >> i can try to find out for you. i will let you know in the
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community discussions we having on what we might leave behind in afghanistan, one of the key issues we have to address is the residual value of the equipment and whether or not the cost of lifting it out of afghanistan is worth that investment. so we have to do that essentially a business case -- >> do we have any buyers in that part of the world? >> in some cases the equipment would be -- through grants -- i can get you that information. >> if you can, give me an overview of the cyber attacks from russia and especially with ukraine situation we have right now, we're dealing with and how that a escalates to concerns and maybe more activity into the former soviet union countries, such as kazakhstan and others, and even o' -- poland.
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>> there's an ongoing cyber element to the challenges in ukraine at the moment in terms of specific is respect through ask this we best be shared in a classified settling. >> okay. i just want to dish assume there has been. so if you can do that i'd appreciate it, sir. also, as you know, my state of west virginia has gone through a water crisis because of a spill, and i said this before. if anyone wanted to know the effect it has on a population and the concerns and historia, and we lad no loss of life no one seriously ill, what a cyber attack would do to the confidence of the pooch. we're a perfect example. if you can come down and work with us on that. with that being said, our most vulnerability i see is our water, our food, and our grid system. are we taking active -- all this is privately owned or corporately opened.
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are you interacting and how much are you interacting with the concerns to beef up the security? >> yes, sir. clearly not in my current duties but if confirmed that would be an aspect of the mission. absent legislation or attempting to do that on a voluntary and partnership basis. those partnerships in some areas working well, in others clear live not mature as we would like. >> now that senator king had mentioned, you wouldn't be able to answer it today, you could year from now. tell us what has been thrown into the mix, if you will, of what you're expected and how you can bring everything together with the demands and the growth? i think is what we're concerned about. and if we should still stand under one umbrella, and i think we're going down that direction. how much more has been thrown at you? >> clearly it's a demanding set of duties.
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ite also highlight the -- the commander does not operate alone by themselves. there's strong team in place. i have had the honor of working with the team for the has two and a half years in my current duties they're a real strength for the team. >> it's amazing to me -- i don't see this in west virginia at all -- trying to lift snowden up to any type of hero. he is basically a traitor in our eyes. and what he has done to our country. with that being said, there had to be a frustration level to where he felt that maybe nat was the direct for him to go because there was no outlet. are you able to in your new position, looking at how you can work -- you're going to have contractors involved and going to have more contractors. are they able to come and have their concerns and y'all have any time of an outatlanta there that would work with them so we don't continue to go down this road?
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>> yes, sir. there are of news within the national security agency main of command and within an inspect juror general structure and nsa and cyber command agencies. >> did snowden ever try to air his concern? >> i don't know. i'm sure in the ongoing investigation, as we review the particulars of the snowden case, that will be one of the questions of high interest. >> because basically he just went down through sabotage route, and you said before, some of the things he has done and has continued to do is irreparable. >> i'm not sure i said irreparable but. damages and consequences. >> you look at him traitsor. >> i don't know i would use the word traitor but could i not consider him to be a hero. >> thank you. >> thank you, senator manchin. senator graham. >> thank you both for your service, and i look forward to working with you in the father.
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i have every confidence you'll be confirmed and these will be difficult but i think very rewarding jobs. general, on the transportation side, what effect will sequestration have on the ability of air transportation command to meet our defense needs over the next eight years? >> senator, i think there's two significant impacts sequestration will have. the first will be as an industrially funded organization, where our users that use transportation services pay out of their operation and maintenance accounts for those services. the decrease in availability of those funds is likely to cause a decrease in the demand signal. the corollary is that will force our organic capacity, the training and seasoning of the people that do that work work whether it's military sea left command or air mobility command -- to spend more of their dollars to achieve the training they could as a byproduct of moving transportation requirements around the world. so there is a bit of two-sided
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copy on the impact of sequestration on the readiness of that fleet. >> in simpler terms would it be really damaging? >> yes, sir. >> from an air mobility command point of view, which you're familiar with, huhs -- . >> we have had a high off tempo in our airlift and refueling fleets. the fleets are holding up well. we do a continuous assessment of our structures in the large aircraft -- >> is it fire say when we accepted each plane into the fleet, ten or 11 -- the operational tempo has been realup press departmented since world war ii probably -- unprecedented since world war ii and when it comes time to evaluate our future needs, we're flying the wings off these planes, basically. i know they're structurally sound but no one envisioned this
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level of operational tempo before 9/11 and we have to make accommodations for it. admiral, are we at war? >> i wouldn't use the word "war." but there is no doubt we're in a conflict. >> well, what -- not a war, what is it? >> a war has -- >> is there disagreement? >> i apologize. i didn't understand the question. >> i said, we are at war? you said, no. i think it's something else. conflict. how can you say we're not at war? >> war has a very specific legal definition. i don't believe we have met -- >> do you believe al qaeda -- we're at war with al qaeda and their affiliates. >> yes, sir. i assumed you were talking in
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the cyber -- >> my bad. >> yes, sir, there is no doubt -- >> i got you. but we are at war in terms of radical islam being the enemy of the nation. >> yes, sir. >> the nsa program is designed to protect us against an enemy who has hell bent on attacking our nation at home and throughout the world. do you agree? >> yes, sir. >> is it likely that there are movements in the united states imbedded in our country, sympathetic to the enemy? >> we have seen those actions by people in the united states, sympathetic to that, previously. >> do believe if we had the nsa capabilities in effect in september 2001, that we have today, there's a high likelihood would have intercepted the attack. >> the potential certainly would have been much greater. >> as we reform the program, will you keep in the forefront of your thinking not to take us
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back to pre9/11 capabilities? >> yes, sir. >> when it comes to monitoring cob tent of an american citizen on a phone, the nsa program is very restricted in that regard. is that a true statement? >> very restrictive. >> but the threat we face is very real. major asan, are you familiar with that gentleman? >> fort hood, i believe. >> how could he, major in the united states army, communicate on the internet with al quarterback can i, leader of al qaeda and n yemen and an american citizen, and we not find out about -- detect that. do you know? >> no, sir, other than to say in general, i believe he took advantage of the protections afforded our citizens. >> could you do in the a favor and evaluate how we missed major hasan? i believe in privacy and transparency but i believe any system that going to protect an
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american -- america from an attack has to be able to pick up a communication from a major in the united states army, one of the leading terrorists in the world. if we can't do that, something is wrong. so would you please go back, evaluate how we missed major hasan. we need to change the law to catch future major hasans i would like to help. the boston attacks, is it fair to say that our ability to pick, intercept communications, identify the perpetrators fairly quickly and gave us some lead time about anything they may have been planning in new york? >> yes, sir. >> when it comes to being at war with radical islam, do you consider the homeland one of their chief targets? >> yes, sir. >> if they could attack anyplace in the world, the top priority would probably be here at home. >> yes, sir. >> now, when it comes to reforming this program, how much
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can we talk about how the program works before we destroy its ability to protect us. >> there's clearly always an element there we don't want to divulge sources and methods. >> would you say the discussions how this program works and the details probably have already helped the enemy in terms of being able to adapt. >> it's given them greater insight what we do and how we do it. >> is it fire say the enemy when they community uses economy shat networks. >> yes, sir. >> and the acknowledge way to detect what they're up to is to be able to access these commercial networks in a reasonable fashion. >> yes, sir. >> do you agree with me the only way to deter them is to prevent them from attacking us because killing them is not a deterrent.
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they welcome death. the best way to protect deaths against radical islam is to stop them before they hit us, is that the world in which we live? >> yes, sir. >> thank you. >> thank you. senator reed. >> thank you very much for your devote service to the nation and -- let me begin with general selva. one of the important componentses of transcom is a civil reserve air fleet, and you're stewing the relationship -- studying and the relationships and what we do after we receipt after significant sessions in iraq and around the globe. can you give us an idea, preliminary at least, on what we have to do to ensure the program continues to support our wartime needs and any highlights of the study that are ready for prime
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time? >> senator, inside the relationship with the civil reserve air fleet we have, as you know, 28 separate carriers that provide cargo and passenger services, each with their own business plan, each with their own motivation for how they run their businesses. so part of study was to get at the eachs of how the industry runs and get at the broad macroeconomic how industry will evolve over time. we're working with the senior executives in those individual carriers, to come to some agreement on what a contract mechanism might look like to incentivize their service in the civil reserve air fleet. the policy that governs how we manage national airlift policy was last updated in 1987. so this study is the first major effort post desert storm to get at what the economics of the industry look like and how they affect our relationship with the craft.
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i fully expect, basedman interaction with senior executives from many airlines, their volunteerism will continue. the question is how to mak at it meaningful business incentive. >> do you anticipate any legislative requirements you would have that would help you achieve a more efficient outcome for the government? >> based on the preliminary work we have done in the study and our interaction with the carrier don't believe any legislative changes are required. >> if they do you will inform us. >> yes, sir. >> admiral rogers, congratulations. i don't know if that's in order or not but congratulations. >> thank you. >> you have two huge responsibilities, cyber command, chase dod function, and nsa. in your organization, are you going to have or contemplate or have now deputies to -- principal deputies that would
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essentially focus exclusively on one or the other? >> yes, sir. each organization has its own deputy and a complete operational organization. >> and there's no changes to my -- at this time, those deputies. >> i believe you may see the u.s. cyber command deputy changing in the course of the next few months. that's part of the normal -- >> part of the anticipated rotation. now, let me change gears slightly. we've all recognized a growing importance of cyber in every mat. -- in every capacity. and i think the lessons of history suggest that the more we practice, the better we are when they -- the game starts. to my mind i don't think we have had the kind of coordinated exercises between cyber command, nsa, homeland security, every
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other agency, which basically will give us some -- confirm what we believe and maybe surprise us about what we don't know. it that your impression, too? >> i think we have done a good job of exercising within the department was he bring more capacity online, the next major revolution how to exercise more broadly across the u.s. government. >> there's the issue of not only across the u.s. got but also reaching out to utilities, financial utilities and publicities -- public utilities, is that something you need funding or authorization or encouragement from the congress? >> at this stage of the game, i don't know. i do make the commitment that if -- if i am confirmed, i will assess that, and if i do believe that money or authorities or support from the legislative side is required, i will approach you. >> i encourage you to do that.
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i think there's so many different moving parts in these issues that you're addressing. not just in terms of operational but privacy, constitutional policy, commercial enterprises versus government enterprises, not for profits, that i think this exercise would be hugely important in -- again, this is probably not the most precise analogy but a when we saw war beginning in 1939, 1940, we learned a lot in a louisiana maneuvers because in fact we discovered, by the way, some very capable leadership done there at the junior rank and i don't sense we have done that in the scale that we talked about, and i would urge you to look very quickly and get back to us very quickly in terms of what we
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have to do to assist you. again, i think both of you gentlemen bring this extraordinary dedication and service, and not just yourselves personally but your families, and also you bring appreciation that all of what we do ultimately is about the young men and women wear the uniform that are really in harm's way, and what you do for them, i thank you. >> thank you, senator reed. senator wicker. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and thanks to both of our witnesses today. let me try to be brief. publish general selva, i want to talk about moving c130js. but let me say that the dod wants to do another background, and often we hear defense officials say, not going to be like the 2005 background.
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they say our days of spending lots of money just moving things around that won't result in financial savings, those dies are over. yet with the air force plans to shut down the 815th airlift squadron and their active duty partners, the 345th airlift squadron, and move the squadron of c 30j air craft from the air force base. i guess the official announcement came yesterday. i have a news report from wlox, biloxi, mississippi, which says the air force base will lose ten aircraft under proposed cuts. the air force reserve command plans to transfer the ten c130j aircraft to the newly
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reactivated 9 3rd airlift group in little rock. first, i -- i am willing to work with the air force in making overall savings. every senate is going to defend its own -- our own bases. but if this is going to help the greater good, count me in to be your teammate here. but first these air craft were going to dobbins in georgia. the air force aban donned them. -- abandoned them and then send them to pope, north carolina. now that wing is going to be deactivated. and we are newly reactivating an airlift group in little rock, and sending these c130js from
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keesler to little rock air force base to this newly activated group. the taxpayers have spent million of dollars to provide keesler air force base with state state-of-the-art modern hangars and facilities. they have enough space to house two squadrons, yet the air force continues to propose to spend millions of dollars to move these aircraftway and i just want you to hips understand at the committee level the rope for this. of course, the move would also cause serious disrunnings -- disruptions to the unit's personnel and their families. i want to ask you three direct questions. how much will this move cost? >> senator, my understanding is that the move itself is cost
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neutral to little rock. the savings are on the order of 600 manpower billets across the air force reserve specifically as the reserves looked at this decision, which equates to about $100 million across the -- for savings. >> okay. is there going to be any milkan at little rock to accomplish this move. >> not to my knowledge. >> i want you to supply me a statement, then, on the record, not to your knowledge, and i want you to be able to look news the eye in this committee, general, and assure us that not one dollar of mlcan will be needed to accomplish this move. >> i'll look into the cost of
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the move from the specifics of what might be required at little rock that would e -- would not be reinquired at pope or any other station. >> it is your testimony that moving these ten air craft from a base where there's already modern hangars and facilities to a new base, is actually going to save enough money to offset the cost of making this move? >> senator, based on the consultations i've head withthe air fierce row serve -- air force reserve, any understanding they'll save upwards of 600 manpower billetts and it's rome. >> i want you to get back to us with the specific numbers. let me follow up on senator manchin's question about equipment being left in afghanistan. i think your testimony was that you really weren't in a position
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to comment about the equipment left in iraq. >> i'm not in a position to testify about the details of the equipment left in iraq because i wasn't in the decision process. >> you are going to get back with the committee and senator manchin on some followup answers regarding equipment being left in afghanistan. is that correct. >> senator, the decisions left on equipment in afghanistan will be up to general austin and sendcome and our dod leadership. the comment i made to senator manchin was, there is some equipment that would normally be left in afghanistan as a result of the value of the equipment. the residual value being less than the transportation costs of bringing it home. >> will you -- are you going to be able to get back to the committee about the factors there or do you suggest that we look elsewhere? >> i would have to consult with the -- >> it's a question for another command. >> yes, sir. >> okay.
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but it goes without saying, number one, we're going leave friends there, hopefully we'll leave a follow-on force. hopefully try to continue to be successful in afghanistan. and there's force that are going to need this equipment, and secondly, there is -- there would be a cost to the taxpayers of transporting some of this equipment book that not going to be necessary for us to exposeful -- to be success envelope long haul and would make no sense to spend the money to bring it back if it is going to cost more. would that be fair statement? ... both of you. >> senator david better. >> let me interrupt you for one
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second. -- is the first of four that are still scheduled. bidder -- vitter, if there are no other senators, i will ask senator kaine and has ahofnhofe -- who different plan. >> thank you for your service and for being here. admiral rogers, do you think the necessary support and policies and authority, and relationships and act, are all of those in place, and would you supplement any of those, what additional allah sees would you like to set? and what additional policies would you like to see set? --

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