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tv   Attack on Democracy The January 6th Hearings  CNN  June 13, 2022 6:00am-10:00am PDT

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testimony. we don't see a lot of surprises sometimes in washington. i think there was surprise that the key witness today, bill stepien, donald trump's campaign manager in 2020. we'll hear from him first. >> yes, he is appearing on subpoena. he's there, he's subpoenaed. this should be interesting. >> cnn's special coverage continues right now. we're standing by another potentially explosive hearing on capitol hill. the january 6th hearing will reveal more from their investigation, including surprising testimony from a trump campaign insider we haven't heard from before. we want to welcome our viewers here in the united states and around the world. i'm wolf blitzer in washington.
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>> i'm jake tapper. aides say this second hearing will drill down on evidence that president trump knew he lost the election but spread false claims of fraud anyway, ignoring court rulings, ignoring the will of the american people. lead-off witness, bill stepien, who has firsthand knowledge about what trump knew about the election numbers. stepien tells cnn he is appearing under subpoena. also testifying today, former fox digital content director chris stirewalt. he was fired after his accurate call of arizona for joe biden. we'll hear directly from republicans who investigated and rejected claims of election fraud in the key states of georgia and pennsylvania, and felt trump's anger for it, former u.s. attorney bijay . . ak and al schmidt and ben ginsburg will testify there was no widespread fraud in 2020 and
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discuss the trump team's failed challenge to the election results. the select house committee is aiming to connect more dots between the insurrection and its allegation of a coordinated conspiracy to attack democracy. aides say the hearing will reveal how the fund-raising machine capitalized on the lies, raising hundreds of millions of dollars between election day 2020 and january 6th, 2021. congressman zoe lofgren will drive a key role in the hearing. we get more information about bill stepien's testimony, why he matters. let's start with ryan nobles on capitol hill. what is the committee expecting from stepien? >> reporter: we already know stepien met with investigators behind closed doors for a lengthy deposition. they already have a good idea of the information he has to share. the difference, though, in a public setting when there are many people watching him and carefully listening to every word he has to say is that his
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testimony could be, to a certain degree, unpredictable. up to this point the committee has been able to carefully stage each one of these hearings they've presented. committee members are not going as far to call stepien a hostile witness but there's no doubt a degree of unpredictability about what to expect from stepien today when he testifies. he certainly has a lot of information about what was happening with the trump campaign, especially in that period of time after the election was called and as the trump campaign and associates began ramping up this idea that the election was stolen. today the committee, not 100% sure what to expect from bill stepien. it is one of the first times we'll see them take the risk of not exactly knowing what the outcome is as this testimony moves forward. jake? >> let's talk to our special correspondent. this is a risk for the committee to put this potentially,
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potentially hostile witness on the stand. we know he's working right now to unseat, to defeat liz cheney in her primary in wyoming. clearly he's still team maga. why is it so important to have him testify? >> a source close to the committee said to me, quote, well, they are using trump voices to hang trump, end quote. so, as you said, stepien is inner circle. but here's something he brings to the table that most of the inner circle does not. he was not a white house staffer. as campaign manager, he has no claim to privilege. yo unlike vice president chiefs of staff, mike short or mark meadows or anyone else, bill stepien cannot claim privilege. so, my sources tell me he can be a critical witness because
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unlike the others, he can say exactly what trump was saying and, therefore, he can testify that trump knew that he had lost the election and was spreading massive fraud. >> dana bash, do you have any insight into what stepien is thinking in terms of his presentation, how he's going to go about doing this? >> i'm told he plans to approach his testimony as low key as possible. it was described to me as just the facts joe friday approach. maybe we know what that is. i'll explain that to you later, abby. look, he doesn't want to be testifying. he was subpoenaed, as we've been talking about. he didn't want to plead the fifth because in order to do that, you have to, in good faith, believe that you have done something criminal. and he is arguing to the people around him, i did nothing criminal. i did nothing wrong. so, what he is hoping to do is to get in and out of these hearings with as little drama as possible. that is his strategy. we'll see if he's going to be successful there. >> and that makes a lot of sense. stepien is a behind-the-scenes
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guy. he's not typically in front of the cameras in this way. he's someone who continuously worked for donald trump in spite of it all. going from role to role to role. and i think that that says a lot. he's not someone who -- i think we can expect to sort of o a matter of grand principles, throw trump under the bus. he's going to testify he's under subpoena. he knows what it means to lie under oath. he's not going to do that. but he's also not going to incriminate himself. when we think about what he has to offer. there were decisions being made by the campaign to perpetuate the big lie. he would have signed off on those decisions. i think we -- we can expect that he's not going to incriminate himself in any wrongdoing as it relates to that. but he can give us a window into what trump was saying to him, to jamie's point, which is at the heart of what the committee wants to get through to the american public. >> bill stepien is to the outside political operation what mark meadows is to the white house. someone who knew and continued
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to enable donald trump and the big lie. this will be a test today for what the committee has done, which is how you build a case for court, which is how we do our jobs every day of our lives. you want to interview the big guy, the campaign manager. where do you get most of your information? from the lower level people. the committee has talked to a number of people in the campaign that have information that the committee has information to say to bill stepien, you knew. why didn't you just stop? why didn't you resign? why didn't you tell donald trump, this is crazy, stop this? that's today. bill stepien wants to come out -- he wants to protect his future and his livelihood but he's one of the people who knew. he's done this a long time. he knows how campaigns work. he was talking to the state directors, the lawyers. they had every right to go to court, to ask for a recount. as that came back, he knew. donald trump kept saying, keep fighting and the campaign kept doing it. >> one of the things that's significant, even if bill stepien testifies today that he told donald trump, you lost, we don't have a path forward, he also was the campaign manager,
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so that means he signed off on all those emails and text mails and everything that went out to trump supporters and got them to send the campaign tens of millions of dollars based on the lie. >> so, there are two other things that are interesting about bill stepien. he worked for chris christie, the governor of new jersey. and he's been through a controversy, bridgegate. christie fired him over that. so, he does not want -- i'm actually not surprised the committee has called him, even though he may be just the facts kind of witness. he doesn't want to go through that again. the other thing i'm told is, my sources tell me stepien was critical of rudy's attempts to push, as bill barr called it, these outlandish theories. >> i don't think bill barr said outlandish. >> it was clown car, was it the clown car lawyers? >> i think there was a barn yard
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epithet used. we have breaking news. let's go to manu raju on capitol hill. >> reporter: bill stepien will not appear as was previously expected in today's hearing because of an advisory that was just put out by the committee explaining why. it says, due to a family emergency, mr. bill stepien is unable to testify before the select committee this morning. it goes on to say his counsel will appear and make a statement on the record. the hearing will still convene. it will start about 30 to 45 minutes later. the initial time was 10:00 a.m. eastern. a major development, as you've been reporting all morning, high anticipation for what bill stepien was going to say to this committee, how much he would cooperate, what he would reveal about donald trump's thinking in the aftermath of november 3rd in the runup to january 6th. now we will not hear from him because of a family emergency. instead, his counsel will appear in his place. it remains to be seen if later, a later event, if they'll try to bring him in for a separate hearing. no word about that yet.
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at the moment, big news. this hearing significantly different this morning now that bill stepien will not testify before this committee due to a family emergency. >> so, there's a family emergency. i'm also being told the committee is attempting to make accommodations so that stepien can testify at one of the later hearings. there are several more. as of right now, manu raju telling us stepien's attorney will read a statement but he has a family obligation so he's unable to testify today. another individual we're expecting to hear from today is chris stirewalt, the politics editor for fox. he was one of the individuals behind the decision to call arizona for biden. they were very early on that. they were connect on that. we did a documentary about this attempted coup, all of this last fall. and we interviewed chris stirewalt for that. i want to play a little bit from that interview and then we can talk about it.
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>> a sitting united states senator was on talk radio calling for my firing over the arizona call. and you didn't think that this would be the kind of guy who would be calling for your firing on the radio. so, that was my first tell like, hmm, okay, something is weird here. and it got really weird, right? and the conspiracy theorizing starts going. people were sending what people were saying on social media. it was this sort of, you know, psychotic, murderous rage about us. and we don't do anything. we're just the weatherman. >> chris stirewalt from the news operation there at fox, fired, i think i can speak for everybody, that we all respect him, he calls balls and strikes, his favorite metaphor, weatherman. he doesn't tell you if the hurricane is good, just that it's coming. it's remarkable that basically he got fired after doing his job correctly. >> there's a whole conversation to be had about fox and their
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decision to do it, but obviously what the committee will be focused on is why the senator said that. why we know that the then president went completely through the roof when he saw fox correctly call arizona for biden. the reason is because the former president early on wanted to make the argument he was doing even before the election. that if he lost, he would argue it was rigged and it was incorrect. having what at the time was, and still is now, his biggest supporter, the biggest mega phone for what he was trying to do, turn on him, from his perspective, hurt that effort. so it was the entirety of the trump world coming down on him and why they did that that is going to be explored. >> i'll be particularly interested in what he knows, what stirewalt knows about the
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private pressure from the white house to fox news to get them to roll back that call. today is going to be a pivotal day for two of the states. i think the white house was really focused on. they knew that if they weren't able to stop those states from being called, that this whole charade would be over. they focused on arizona because that actually made their problem -- they knew they had a problem in georgia. they knew arizona made it a lot worse. they were pressuring fox in public and in private, white house officials, not just sitting senators and republican lawmakers, to roll back that call. so, what more we can learn about what happened behind the scenes, i think, will paint a very clear picture of some of the people who probably to this point testified to the committee that they knew this was all acharade and still publicly and privately pressuring folks to roll back those calls. >> just to make one note, jamie -- but republican senator kevin kramer, this is november 6th. november 6th he demanded that fox fire chris stirewalt and
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other, quote, knuckleheads, for the arizona call saying they owed the american people an apology. again, chris stirewalt doesn't owe anyone an apology. he was correct. arizona went into the biden column. here you have a u.s. senator from north dakota, not, by the way, one of the more incendiary u.s. senators out there, calling for fox to fire him for an accurate call. >> so, there are a couple of worst kept secrets about what was going to happen election night. one of them was that trump had been told that early on the numbers would look good and then later overnight it was going to get bad. so, there was a plan discussed that early on he was going to declare victory before the counts were in. fox's announcement of arizona interfered in a mighty way with that plan. so much so that we have reported
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that jared kushner had called rupert murdoch directly to tell -- they were so angry, to tell them to stop calling states. so, the relationship -- >> that's so hideous and inappropriate. >> just keep in mind, this is the same jared kushner who says to his friends that the day before election day, he told his wife in the middle of the night, according to "the new york times," it's time to go to miami, it's over. we know that it's lost. the same jared kushner is calling to roll back an arizona call that he probably at that point knew -- >> his father-in-law was breathing down his neck. >> jared kushner is known to play three lanes on a two-lane highway. that's what he does. the record supports it. the key here is chris made the right call. it was bold of fox news. election night we were having conversations. mathematically, it was defensible. given the bush/gore history of 2000. we're much more conservative at
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cnn. that's just our policy. but it was a good call but it was a risky call. but a propagandist needs an echo chamber. that's what fox news was to donald trump. an authoritarian, a guy who wants to promote a lie needs a megaphone. >> the difference between the opinion people and the news people. >> and the news people are leaving in droves. >> or being fired. we're learning about trump's reaction to the hearings and how the panel is using testimony by his family and others against him. our special coverage of the january 6th hearings continues. we'll squeeze in one quick break. stay with us. [♪] if you have diabetetes, it's important to have confidence in the nutritional drink you choose. try boost glucose control®. it's clinically shown to help manage blo sugar levels
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preparing to call multiple witnesses to testify. let's bring in our chief white house correspondent kaitlan collins, a veteran of covering the trump administration. will trump be watching? i know you're doing some reporting on that. >> reporter: we do expect the former. the to be watching closely. he's been paying attention closely since last thursday when that first hearing took place, which the president watched and later irritated by the fact they played that clip of his daughter, ivanka trump, praising the former attorney bill barr at the time, talking about how she accepted when he said there was no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election. the president ever since last thursday, the former president has been complaining about the fact that he believes the january 6th committee is only
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using negative testimony when they have these hearings. he believes that's what was happening thursday night. likely to see more of that today given chris stirewalt, the former fox news analyst, will be testifying who has been at the center of trump's ire since elections night. it was about 11:30 that night and fox called arizona for president biden. that sent shock waves through the trump campaign at the time and kind of caused this eruption in trump's orbit at the white house as they had guests waiting in the east room for the former president to come out because they knew that that really helped narrow that any path to victory, any claims the former president could have to victory. and you saw campaign staff, they were calling fox news, asking them to retract that call for arizona for biden. obviously, that's not something fox news did. biden ultimately went on to win arizona. they just doubled down on saying, yes, they believed he had won that. it really changed the tone that night for the trump campaign,
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for the former president because they realize their window of victory was getting smaller. it's kind of changed his view of fox news ever since then. obviously, one he used to have a very comfortable relationship with. so, we do expect former president trump to be watching when the hearing gets under way. >> i expect he will. thanks. let's discuss with oush analysts who are with us. gloria, the committee is clearly trying to show what they believe was a deliberate effort to undermine the smooth transition from one president to another president of the united states. >> and i think what you're going to see today is a narrative that starts with how the big lie got to be the big lie. how it was -- how it was formed, how trump was repeatedly told, you lost. but then there were some folks like rudy giuliani, for example, and others saying, no, no, no, maybe you didn't, maybe we could win this. he obviously sided with them,
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decided he was going to go on with this big lie. then you move along, it became a rallying cry for trump supporters. it became a fund-raising mechanism for the republican party. and eventually led right up the steps of the capitol on january 6th. and i think they're going to do that through line today to show you how this lie affected everything and, perhaps, how that could happen all over again even with someone else. so, i think it's a very important day of testimony that you can see the inside of what happened in those conversations at the white house and a president who just was unwilling to say, i lost. >> because we're going to be hearing from trump's inner circle. >> that's right. to pick up on what gloria said, i think this is the most important day of all of these hearings.
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not the most dramatic day, not the most explosive day, but the most important. for precisely this reason, because it all flows from donald trump claiming that the election was stolen, that he actually won and that there was fraud or faulty voting machines or whatever in all of these states. if they're successful today, and obviously to trump supporters, nothing they say may be successful, but if they're successful in putting the lie to the big lie, then suddenly trump is not an aggrieved party. he's simply a loser in a naked grab for power and willing to overturn the judgment of 150 million american voters and say that he won when he didn't win. for those of us, and you know this well, when you talk about recounts and fraud, you know, sort of what happened in pennsylvania, the primary, what happened in florida between bush/gore in 2000, hundreds of
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votes. there's a possibility. when you're talking about 14,000 votes in georgia and more than that in wisconsin and michigan, there was never a chance they were going to find enough votes to switch. that's one of the points that bill barr made. he said, it's not just the question of fraud. was there fraud on the dimensions that would actually reverse the results of the election? and there never was a chance. >> where it gets complicated for the hearing is that, first of all, folks have seen a lot of this play out during the impeachment. they're going to see representative luffofgren talki about these things. the other thing, president trump as far back as 2016, he said ted cruz stole the iowa caucuses from him. every single election to him is a rigged election. that's something the public is already familiar with. what the hearing is trying to do is maybe show at what point does that shift into something more coordinated, at what point does that draw the people around him to act against the law?
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and at what point does that metastasize to a point where he and his campaign is putting pressure on states and state officials? that gets to your point about, what does it take to prevent the system from being that vulnerable again. >> do we really know what he really believed? that's the question. >> that's -- >> what does that matter? everyone around him was acting against what they knew to be true. what does it matter what he thought -- >> it matters enormously from a legal perspective. >> other people could have said no. >> let's see more facts about that. i think that's why today is so interesting and important. this is a congressional hearing. it's not a criminal investigation. however, everyone knows, there is at least the possibility of a criminal investigation of the president and the key issue will be, in that criminal investigation, what was the president's state of mind? was there criminal intent? it is one thing to seek to overturn an election that you
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genuinely believe you won and you have evidence that points to that, and that is not a crime. however, if you know that you lost and pushed all these efforts forward in an effort to overturn an election you knew you lost, that is a recipe for a definite criminal investigation, if not charges. that's something -- >> but what does know mean? you can have bill stepien and other campaign professionals, even if your own campaign, saying, you lost but then you've got other people like rudy giuliani coming in or sidney powell coming in and saying, no, you didn't lose. >> your question comes up in white collar crime all the time, because the defense in white collar crime is usually, look, i thought the business was going to succeed. i thought this was a legitimate enterprise and we were just going through tough times. ultimately, those wind up being jury questions.
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how you prove criminal intent is always a difficult thing in white collar crime. it's difficult here. and we'll see what the proof -- >> did he say to anybody at any point, i'm going to say no matter what? did he do that? >> have we -- >> well, that's what these hearings are for. that's what these hearings are for. look at what he told dr. oz to do. go out, declare victory. look at what he did in the middle of the night after the election. i think it was 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning. >> 4:00. >> all right. >> i remember. >> he came out and said, i won. so, if there -- we don't know. that's why these hearings are so important. they can uncover things that were said in depositions that we don't know about. intent is so -- i'm not the lawyer here. i believe you. it's so hard to prove. but there were lots of people around him a lot of the time. and so there's a lot of people to talk -- >> he also -- you say there's a lot of people around him. he switched the people around
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him depending on how he wanted the people to feed his preconception. >> everybody standing by. coming up, how the select committee is using the words of trump insiders against him. two former members of the trump world standing by to join us right after a quick break.
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we're standing by for the second hearing of the january 6th select committee this month. we could hear more of former attorney general bill barr's damning testimony denying any widespread election fraud. two election officials who were targets of trump's pressure to overturn the election are among the witnesses slated to testify
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live. we're getting new information that we may still hear from former trump campaign manager bill stepien today, even though his live testimony has been delayed because of a family emergency. let's go to manu raju live on capitol hill. what's the latest? >> reporter: i'm hearing from multiple sources that, in fact, the committee does plan to use video testimony from his closed deposition. bill stepien's closed deposition and show that in today's proceedings. the committee, i'm told, has done this for pretty much all the witnesses that have come behind closed doors. they've recorded this via video. we saw some clips come out last hearing and we expect more today. they've had these contingency plans in place in case someone cannot attend, like bill stepien today, in case of a family emergency or they get covid. they'll have the testimony to show what that witness would have said. now, a source told me that this is disruptive to the committee's plan. the committee had carefully choreographed all of its hearings since last week and in
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the coming weeks. still they believe they'll be able to make their points because they have this video testimony. stepien has, i'm told, been released from his subpoena to attend to this family emergency. we'll hear from his family attorney later this morning when he'll make a statement for the record. and we'll hear from him himself via the video testimony. >> thank you. dana, it does sound like we are going to hear from bill stepien one way or another. >> yes. and the notion of it being potentially unwieldy because the campaign doesn't know what he's going to say, that's now off the table. and what they have are clips from his private testimony where they know what he said. they know the point they want to make with those clips. they knew it going into this. so, they can pick out, forgive me, the best sound bytes, the most important arguments, the most important points they
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believe he has already made to help paint their broader picture, and presumably that picture that -- well, we know the picture they're trying to paint today is that donald trump knew that the election was not won and he tried to explain or lie to his supporters and to the country and the world about that. >> jake, i think we can assume this videotaped testimony must have been very strong because that's why they wanted him as a live witness in a public hearing. i'm also hearing that there are going to be other trump inner circle witnesses on tape, that they're going to be brought in as part of this. again, they want trump allies testifying that he knew. >> thanks so much. speaking of trump insiders, let's turn now to two former trump insiders. elizabeth griffin, white house communications director for president trump on election day 2020 and david with us.
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both of them are political commentators. you were comps director at the white house during the election. what was the relationship between the white house and fox news at the time? we're going to hear from chris stirewalt, the former politics editor for fox news digital, who called correctly the state of arizona for joe biden and was eventually fired by fox. >> well, the president himself, the former president, donald trump, had a very close relationship with fox news personality. on any given day you'd walk into his back dining room and he would be on the phone with sean hannity, he was close with lou dobbs at fox news, laura ingraham and other personalities. not only were there personal relationships there but his opinion was often swayed by information he got from those individuals. another thing widely reported is after the arizona call, the president directed aides to reach out to rupert murdoch, to go to the top of fox news and try to push back on the decision that that call was made. >> take the call back? >> yeah, to try to take the call
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back. obviously, didn't ultimately happen. the chris stirewalt testimony is really important because he's going to go through the data. he's a highly professional, respected person who is seen as right of center. this is not someone unfriendly to trump or the republican party, who was just calling balls and strikes and lost his job because of it. >> it's very odd. david, you were one of trump's 2020 advisory committee members. based on what you know about trump and his inner circle, do you think the committee will be able to prove that he was lying about the election? >> so, proving somebody's -- i'm not -- i was a lawyer. play one on tv now. so, proving someone's mental state is a very high order, very tall order. that's what's going on in these hearings. they're trying to set up all these different people to say, we told them this, that, so in the end they can say, a-ha, he had all that information so he must have known or should have known these things. that's not necessarily always
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true. in elections, as you know, there are lots of different opinions. i think you'll hear from bill stepien today, this is what i suppose you're going to hear, is he's going to say, look, we told the president these were the paths forward and we were slowly exhausting these paths forward on appeal, on recounts and that's when enter, right, sidney powell and rudy giuliani who said, oh, no, no, no, we have a different opinion as to the facts and to our interpretation of how this election's going. and so, you know, query who was right in that case, i mean, obviously now we know history shows that, you know, the bill stepien and justin clark look like they were on the right track. but in elections, look, i just took place in an election in pennsylvania -- >> you were advising dave mccormack. >> lost by 981 votes. >> very close election. there were a lot of different opinions about how to proceed forward and at the county level, there's a lot of -- a lot of
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unknowns at these different counties. what's going on. you can imagine that across the united states. >> absolutely. i will say, and i want to get your feedback on this, this was a strategy. i mean, trump before the election was talking about democratic cities, you know, democratic-leaning states and pointing to them and saying, there's going to be a bunch of fraud. we'll hear from al schmidt, former philadelphia city commissioner, talking about this for that documentary. i interviewed al schmidt last fall. i want to play a little clip of this. this is schmidt watching trump setting the stage for the false claims he was going to make about election fraud in philadelphia. >> you're watching the debate and president trump says bad things happen in philadelphia. what goes through your mind? >> i think i said out loud, i see what you're doing, or something to that effect.
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it became very clear that running elections in the biggest city in probably the biggest swing state in america that we were in their sights. >> in fact, trump ended up doing better in philadelphia in 2020 than he did in 2016. it was in the suburbs where he lost but it was politically shg at least trump thought, a advantageous to accuse those folks in philadelphia. >> i want to say as early as june 2020 he cast doubt on the potential outcome, it was rigged, and it was actually bill stepien who had to push back and say, you need to stop criticizing mail-in voting. we're going to rely on that to win the election. he early on cast doubt in the potential outcome because we're in the midst of covid, huge social justice protests he was on the wrong side at that point in the country, and i think he knew -- he was seeing the tea leaves he might lose. what's interesting about stepien as a witness, we'll hear from
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his prior deposition testimony, he was data-driven, very serious person, very good campaign manager. doesn't talk much. doesn't say much. i remember flying on the plane, i believe we were going to pennsylvania. david wasn't on this flight. he was walking us through the data weeks before the election. and it aligned almost perfectly with where the results came down. he knew we would likely lose michigan. georgia was the only unforeseen one. it will be interesting to hear his testimony. >> we'll discuss the potential impact of testimony by georgia and pennsylvania republicans who investigated and ultimately rejected trump's claims of voter fraud. ♪ ♪
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we're closing in on the second of a series of historic hearings this month held by the january 6th select committee. a key focus will be trump's campaign to pressure officials to overturn the presidential election. let's bring in cnn senior justice correspondent evan perez. evan, a former u.s. attorney in georgia, in atlanta, is among the witnesses scheduled to testify today. tell us why his testimony is so significant. >> that's right, wolf, bjay pak, the former u.s. attorney in atlanta. atlanta and fwogeorgia was an important state, swing state, closely watched by the trump team. they wanted the state officials there to find the exact number of votes that would have allowed him to claim that he won the state of georgia, which, of
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course, was not true. bjay pak was at the forefront of what became this pressure campaign. he's, frankly, the only person who ended up losing his job, the only person in the government who ended up losing his job for standing up for what was right, for standing up to the former president. in this case, the president wanted to fire him. he ended up submitting his resignation after hearing the president wanted him out, even going so far as to call him a never trumper. he is an important witness because as part of the effort by this committee to show that trump would have known, that he had to have reason to know from all of the officials around him, that there was no fraud, not enough fraud to make a difference in the election. in this case, bjay pak had personally looked into the claims made by rudy giuliani and others and had found they were not -- they were not supported by evidence, wolf. as far as this committee is trying to do, which is to show that if trump didn't know that
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he had lost the election, he should have known because, you see, all of these officials who worked for him, who were supporters of his, who were conservatives, who were looking into this and were finding none of the fraud that he claimed there was. >> that's so, so important. thank you. you're all too familiar with trump's treasure campaigns. what sort of impact could they provide for the former u.s. attorney in georgia. >> i'm very interested in hearing him testify. it's a very unusual thing for a u.s. attorney in the field to receive pressure from people all the way up to the white house, tou up to and including trump himself. he did the right thing. he didn't succomb to the pressure. i think he can talk about the ways in which various people in
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the white house trying to get him to bring cases without merit. tried to get him to put up distractions from the public to show the investigations were taking place that had no basis if fact or law. i think it's very interesting that we'll hear from bj pack today because parallel to that, separate and apart from the proceedings going on in the congress today, there is a grand jury investigation in fulton county georgia being conducted by the d.a. in the county with respect to whether or not donald trump in other ways tried to effect and over turn the outcome of the election. there's jeopardy for donald trump and the people around him from what bj pack will say today because he was on the ground and the subject of the sort of employment extortion scheme. you have an ongoing bit of peril for the former president that will tell us the state of mind of donald trump in the lead up to january 6th.
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there's this active investigation in fulton county. how significant is that probe when we heard trump in his own words on a taped phone call with georgia officials demand to get more votes. >> i think it's a real probe. i haven't heard all the testimony. i think it's a real threat. it's a live threat and there's a basis for it. some people will say, reasonable sap it's a bit of an on thing when talking about something as massive as trying to over turn an election that a local da in fulton county, georgia should hold the president accountable. this dch.a. seems serious. i think it's a distinct possibility. >> bottom line, what other
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prospects any of this resulting in criminal charges against trump? >> you know, that's a question that you and i have discussed for a number of years now, including with respect to the b manhattan d.a. it's still unclear what the state of mind of the department of justice is on this. i'd like to wait and see all the system and documents brought to bear at the hearings. there's still six more to go. i still think if there's going to be accountability for president trump relating to the election lie and insurrection that the best place for that to happen is at the department of justice which is national in scope and has a lot of resources. we know the department of justice is asked for the transcripts of all the depositions taken by members of the committee and staff. that's a positive sign for those who think there should be accountability. i'm not going to, at this moment, make a prediction, but i
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think there's chance s. >> we shall see. thank you very much. we're getting closer to the start of today's hearing. the opening statements, new video evidence, it's all ahead. stay with us. it■s hard eating healthy. unless you happen to be a dog. dry skin is sensitive skin, too. and it's natural. treat it that way. aveeno® daily moisture wi prebiotic oat is proven moisturize dry skin all day. you'll love our formula for face, too. aveeno®. from prom dresses to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have
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it will be packed live and video interview. trump's former campaign manager has been delayed due to a family emergency. this hearing will zero in on evidence that then president trump lit the flame on the insurrection by spreading false claims of election frauds despite knowing he had actually lost. let let's g back to ryan. the select committee plans follow a money trail. >> reporter: there are individuals connected to the trump campaign and the trump family that may be personally benefitted financially from the raising of all this campaign cash that continues to glow into the trump campaign.
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they knew the information with not correct. you're able to kind of follow that money trail because of the documentation that's necessary for modern fund raising. the problem is the committee did attempt to get information from salesforce which is a major vendor for the republican national committee and republican campaign fund raising apparatus. they were unsuccessful in those attempts and even delayed responding to part of that court hearing, that court trial until after the hearings were over. it's not as if the committee has all the information necessary to make this case but i'm told they do have enough to present this information and show it was one of the many ways the trump campaign was pedaling a big lie. not just about the election results itself but in way they were raising funds around that
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period of time. >> thanks, ryryan. we're getting new reporting why the live reporting has been delayed. what can you tell us about this family emergency? >> reporter: yeah, jake. bill stepien was supposed to testify today. we are told it's a genuine family emergency, that his wife is in labor. he was set to come to this committee under the issubpoena. he was not going to defy it like you saw others try to do so. obviously, that's a very costly legal endevour. it's not some in the trump's orbit wanted to do. he was going to come in testify and the committee had general idea of what he was expected to say played and someone who met with
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the former president the night of will election and the days after. he was part of those efforts talking to aids and campaign staff and calls telling them to keep up the fight. if you know bill stepien, he's well aware of what the numbers were. looking at what the former president's odds were of winning. that's why the committee wanted to bring him in, have him on display. he will not be testifying today given his wife is in labor. it still remains to be seen if the committee uses clips of his previous appearances behind closed doors. that's something that really angered the former president when they were talking about this last week. for example, they used ivanka trump saying she respected attorney general bill barr and accepted his conclusion there had opibeen no widespread fraud. that's something that really
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irritated trump as he watched that. we'll see what he says if they use clips of stepien. he remained on the president's good side the last several months. whether or not they bring him back in the future give tennessee central role he played. >> trump responded to ivanka's testimony on his social media site claiming his daughter had quote, unquote checked out at that point which is not my impression of the role of his daughter at this point in time. >> reporter: cnn has gotten a lot of the text messages. they showed group messages that mark meadow was an on and bill getting messages from ivanka trump urging them to keep up the fight.
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the committee is showing is what people are saying when they are testifying and testifying privately about what happened and what they were saying publicly. we know based on our reporting and this witness testimony they did not always align. >> yeah because there's no criminal penalty for lying to the public or the press. just for lying to congress or judge. thanks so much. let's go to jamie. we'll hear testimony from a very respect ed election lawyer. one i met during the florida recount, 300 years ago in was the republican guy. his bono fides were undisputed. >> when ben ginsburks speaks, republicans listen. i'm told he's going to testify today. that this was quote, not a close election and trump and his allies declared fraud and went looking for it.
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by promoting these lies, trump created a dangerous situation. we'll hear from many witnesses that trump was repeatedly told there was no significant fraud. and repeated told that what he was doing could lead to violence sd . >> just to underscore for people who are not familiar are election lawyers in washington, d.c., ben beginsburg was the-day-old standard when it came to a republican election attorney. for him to say there's nothing there, there's a big deal. >> and still is the gold standard for republicans who want to know the actual facts. >> he has long been the gold standard. >> exactly.
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there's no question he will say here what he's said in interviews that you've done. he's done challenges for elections. he is somebody who thinks it's appropriate to do that. then you stop when you know the answers. you don't try the find fraud in order to prove your lie. >> the arguments from trump campaign, it's not that complicated. they were basically making blanket arguments that certain folks shouldn't count because it doesn't seem right. when you're a serious lawyer that looks into, republicans tend to believe there's a little
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more fraud than demonstrates tend to believe. ben ginsberg is on that side of the line. it swrowould have to be so manys that test not possible. it wasn't possible even in that election week yet alone weeks after when all of this was going on. what would could the recourse be? he was pretty clear there could be recourse if there was signs of trouble. as we got to election day, election day in america in 2020 was pretty free of a lot of widespread problems in way that surprised a lot of people. i think that took the trump campaign aback. they were expecting more chaos. they were expecting more trouble. it's because election officials repaired for that day so basic
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r -- rigorously and that's why their plans went haywire at the end of the day. >> every election there is some fraud, some incon sistencincons. it's always happens. you're dealing with human beings, fallibilities. there's a number of pennsylvania republican who is have gotten in trouble for voting on behalf of dead spouses. that happened in florida as well. it does happen. is there enough of it to change an election? >> the answer almost always is no. this is why bill ginsberg is so important. changing demographics.
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ben ginsberg has years of experience. can you look at this for us? for the system to function, it has to have rules and guardrails and an end point . that's why today is so important. told repeatedly by his campaign manager, by the lawyers who understand the law and process and do not make stuff up. it's not there. told that pretty much from the couple of days after the election. remember we had election week in america. it took us several days to call pennsylvania. he was told. he was told. the question can the committee mount that evidence. told by lawyers, data people, told by people around him and he continued to promote this big lie. one of the things we need to
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remember is this is donald trump's trademark. he lies and repeat lies even when told to stop. barack obama is not american. donald trump kept repeating it, repeating it for the point obama released his long determine birth certificate and trump cast doubt on that. during the coronavirus pandemic, the experts kept saying things, he said something different. it's how he built his brand. the question is in this case, it's american democracy. it got to this cap tone where it went from wreckless and dangerous, some are amusing, this is downright dangerous. we have primaries coming up this week where people are running for office around america who election deniideniers. >> keep in mind, donald trump is making the same allegations in 2016 when it looked like he was going to lose in hillary clinton. then he won and suddenly, all those allegations of frauds in philadelphia went away.
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. as we ae wait the january 6
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hearing, stock prices are taking a nose dive on wall street. let's go to alison now. what's the dow doing right now and why? >> we're seeing the dow down over 700 points. the broader market index, the s&p 500 has now entered a bear market. that means it's a 20% fall from a recent high. the most recent high was january. i think what we're seeing here in the stock market today is really capturing not just the mood of investors but the mood of americans about where the u.s. economy is headed. a lot is unknown. this week, there will be a two-day policy meeting for the federal reserve. you're seeing that nervousness about what's going to happen in that policy meeting play out there on wall street. the federal reserve is set to decide how much to raise interest rates. back in may when it raised interest rates a half a percent to try to get a handle on infl inflation, federal reserve chief said any bigger rate increase would be off the table. now there's growing calls for the fed to raise rates at a bigger clip meaning at three quarters of a percent.
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that would actually be a rare moment because the last time that the fed raised rates that much, it was november 1994 when allen greenspan headed the fed. it shows the urgency, at least the numbers do on wall street, it shows the urgency about how concerned investors are about the ability for the fed to get control of inflation. the fed is in a tough spot. as it raises rates even higher or at bigger clip, it looks at the possibility of putting the u.s. economy into a recession because the whole point of raising rates is to kind of tap your foot on the brakes of the speed in which is economy is going trying to cool an over heated economy which we are in. the fed is in a rock and a hard place now. investors are calling out to fed to go ahead and raise rates even more and we're seeing lots of economists saying the same. from 3% to 40% of economists
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from just a few weeks ago saying, hey, fed, you have to go ahead and raise rates more to get ahold of inflation which consumers are saying every day whether it's at the grocery store or the gas station. as far as that bear market goes, for the s&p 500 which it is now in, it will be, the last time the s&p 500 traded at an intraday level like this was about three weeks ago. we will know for sure at the closing, jake, if the s&p 500 actually closes in bear market territory. jake. >> all right. thanks so much. let's turn back to the january 6th hearing. manu spoke with liz cheney. what did she tell you? >> reporter: i asked her about the big news that bill stepien will not appear because of a family enemergency. i asked her how disruptive that is to today's plans. she said we will still have a very important set of hearings.
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she said mr. stepien appeared previously behind closed doors so we will be a i believe to provide the american people with a will the of interesting, new important information that mr. stepien provided to us previously. n in fact, they do plan to use video. she said they will do that later this morning. as part of this hearing that the committee is trying to draw on a theme. if it weren't for a handful of principled people, donald trump's plan to over turn the election could have succeeded. we will see that play out today. it will be a neetheme about the coming hearings. pressure on the justice department but that's one thing they will be talking about as they discuss donald trump's baseless claims of fraud. if it weren't for a handful of
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people, perhaps he could have succeeded. >> thanks so much. let's bring in the former trump white house communications director and david urban. both are cnn political commentators. the committee will emphasize that trump was repeatedly told that he lost. then in fact that his losses lined up perfectly with the polling before the election. does donald trump listen to experts? >> the former president listens to who he wants to listen to. you had bill stepien and i'm sure you will hear that he was advising the president that numbers weren't going to be there. we have limited paths forward after the election. there are options that he had
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that were being provided to him by people outside the white house that weren't necessarily going to produce any fruit but he have still shaking that tree. >> yeah, success that how you see it too. that he just liked the reasonable people in his orbit were telling him information that he didn't like so he went seeking people who were going to tell him other stuff even if it was crack pot crazy? >> yes. there's two phases to the big lie in the post-november 7th, once the election is called. the first phase is somewhat legitimate. the rnc is contesting different state outcomes. you have justin clark saying we're going to fight this. we'll see it through. then it goes this very scary different direction where you have people like sydney powell coming in just bringing genuine conspiracy theories to the president and getting in his head. i've said before i think trump knew he lost in the initial
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aftermath but i think that people around him changed his mind and he became convinced that it was generauinely stolen. what you'll hear from stepien that there was no path to v victory and those like rudy giuliani put things in front of him that the election was s stolen. >> and the conspiracy theories, you can't prove them. the servers were hacked by small group of people. >> the italian military. >> they suggested any number of insane things but commissioner al schmit that they accused
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philadelphia of using a kind of software that philadelphia wasn't using. some of it wasn't possible. >> al is a reasonable, capable got who got elected by battling election corruption in philadelphia. he made his stripes by combatting election fraud in philadelphia. there are inconsistencies but i find it, in my past election experience, it's mostly not because of anybody trying to do anything fraudulent, it's because the way the system works. it's clungy, old. a lot of the machines don't work. it's not perfect but it's nef going to be enough to over turn election .
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>> congressman adam kinsinger made a good point. if donald trump still believes this time he lost the election, he's unfit to be president or that he won. the cases have been knocked down in every court he's been in front of. he is still promoting these attorneys around him who have lost every court case they brought up. there's sort of this cognitive disconnect there's no proof there and yet he continues to spout these lies. >> there is much more ahead of our special coverage as we stand by for the gavel to fall. we'll squeeze in a quick break. we'll be right back. machine all with chase first banking. freedom for kids. ♪ ♪ cocontrol for parents. one bank witith tools for both. chase. make more of what's yours. thinink he's posting about all that ancient roman coinage?
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i'd say suspenseful. aren't they the same thing? can we move on guys, please? alexa, turn on the subtitles. and dim the lights. ok, dimming the lights. your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire lemons. lemons, lemons, lemons. look how nice they are. the moment you become an expedia member, you can instantly start saving on your travels. so you can go and see all those, lovely, lemony, lemons. ♪ and never wonder if you got a good deal. because you did. ♪
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. people are gathering inside the cannon caucus room on the outside of the capitol. we're awaiting the january 6th chairman the open today's hearing. that will include recorded testimony from an unfriendly witness of sorts, the trump campaign manager, bill stepien. he's a key figure the show that then president trump knew his claims of voter fraud for false. he kept pushing them any way. let's bring in cnn senior legal analyst laura coates and george conway. laura, one of the things that the committee will try to prove today is that trump knew that what he was saying was a lie.
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does that matter, do you think? >> absolutely. remember, up till now we have been wondering what he was doing at the time but what he knew and when he knew it. if he really believes he have either, a, relying on his attorney john eastman's memo to say he had the right to do this or unclear about what he was promoting was fraudulent, he might have a leg to stand on. t there's the idea of defraudsing the united states to stop an official proceeding. if he knew he was fraudulent, he knew it was part of the big lie and was the big lie then you have a criminal intention notion here. that's important because we are the audience in the court of the electorate. you have the department of justice looking to figure out what do you know, what can you prove to suggest it was criminal intent and it wasn't somebody just hoping and just believing and relying on lawyer but really knew, i am engaging in behavior that is intended to defraud the american electorate to try to have me remain in office.
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that's violation of law. >> adam kinsinger said over the weekend that if trump, that he thinks trump knew it was all false but if he does think he actually won the election, that's disqualifying because it shows he's not mentally in the right place to be president. what do you think? do you think trump knows it's lie? >> i think deep down he know it's a lie but some level, truth does not matter to him. his mind is this scrambled eggs soft truth, lies, desires and just saying things that he wants to be true or wants people to believe. i don't think in his mind he makes a moral distinction between lies and truth. it's whatever comes out of his mouth is whatever to his advantage at time. the fact of the matter is, his knowledge, the fact he was spotold
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by credible people who work for him and lost to him was lost will be critical in investigations from the justice department and georgia. if it relates to other states, it goes to his state of mind and his criminal intent of him to commit fraud. >> up wone of the arguments on thursday had to do with these extremist groups. the oath keepers and the proud boys. his right wing malitias. members of which stormed the capital, members of which have now been charged with seditious conspiracy for an attempt to stop the county of electoral votes. the question i asked chairman thompson is do you have evidence. we understand that the oath eee keepers and the proud boys were inspired but do you have evidence there was more. conversations between the malitia members and people in trump's orbit and chairman thompson said yes, we do. >> we needs to have that
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evidence. it's not too long ago we heard from somebody named michael cohen that went trump would give an order, you knew what he meant. people would think, is it people believed it or he said something about it. the reason that's important is because you've got to have that causal connection. we heard from the first hearing, you heard the people saying he asked me to be here. he invited us here. one was to vote and the other was the come on january 6th. that's all well and good. if you're trying to suggest that he, in fact, defrauded the government or engaged in other conspiracy related crimes, there had to have been a meeting of the minds. what you just described in terms of the proud boys, i thought why are they focusing so much on them unless they are trying to envelope into the fold donald trump suggest it was an actual conspiracy. you were not just invited, you were supposed to be here and carry out, not just stand by and
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stand back but proceed to the capitol. they will have to suggest that. it's not just about having a bald assertion even with the snippets. they have the show a causal connection. this is a legislative committee whose job they already said to try to convince the american people this is an ongoing threat. if it's all about the notion of a wink and a nod, that's not going to convince people enough to have a codified legislative response. >> that's the big fear is that this big lie continues. it's still out there. you have people running for office trying to get into positions of power where they can influence the next election. they can say, we're not going to count those ballots. that's the fear because the lie is still around and majority of republican voters believe it. >> it's a problem. even if donald trump were to basically say i'm going to retire tomorrow and go just play golf or travel around the world or do whatever, retire rich president would do.
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we have these, i call them termites that he set loose in the foundations of our democracy and they're chews away. the only way we'll get to be able to exterminate them and stop the bugs is to shine the truth on this whole thing. that's what these hearings are about. >> in the meantime, a lot of people who are pushing the lies are the nominee for governor in pennsylvania and all over the country. >> those who will run elections. >> that's the big fear. we expect the hearing to bin in a couple of minutes. squeeze in another quick break. we'll be right back. empire builn black excellence was booming. black wall street. it was a sight to be seen. until one day, it was all burned to the grground. but fire is no match for the fire within black dreamers everywhere.. and so, nenew black wall streets rise. ♪ ♪
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the january 6 committee is about to get a second opportunity to reveal its findings to national television audience. today's hearing was thrown a bit of a curve ball with bill stepien expected to be seen in recorded testimony instead of appearing live. his wife went into labor, we're told. stepien's lawyer just spoke with reporters. what did his lawyer say? >> reporter: he did confirm to reporters the reason for stepien's absence saying his wife has gone into labor and he
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confirmed that stepien was scheduled to appear under subpoena today. he did go onto say that stepien was just going to confirm what he already knew. he said he's one of the finest political consultants in the country and that we're going to hear he followed the numbers, followed the data and advised the president as to what he saw. an interesting side note is that marino has been seen inside the hearing room in a pretty lengthy conservation for the chief counsel. this had required some add adjustments. the hearing was supposed to start at 10:00 eastern. they are hoping to start in next three or four minutes. the committee add justing their plans. we expect to hear from morino on behalf of stepien. he's expected to read a statement on behalf of his client and then as we already reported, the committee does plan to use some of the closed
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door video deposition that stepien already provided the committee as to outline part of the findings and what they want to reveal here ftoday. this is not expected. we're seeing a lot of moving parts as the committee gets prepared to kick this off. >> let's bring in evan perez. the committee is expected to push testimony and evidence suggesting there was no widespread voter fraud and donald trump had been told that over and over by experts. >> that's right. i think you'll hear -- the theme you'll hear emerging from the former justice department witnesses who you will hear from in perhaps a little while later today as well as from the former top doj officials expected to testify on wednesday, we're going to hear from them that even now there's been nothing that is emerged, no evidence to support the former president's claims of fraud.
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this was true in december and november. december, january following the election in 2020 and it's true now. it's important because the former president and some of his supporters are continuing to come up with various, wild theory of what happened in 2020, including this movie that's been making the rounds that conservatives say proves otherwise. that's the theme you'll hear from these people who looked into those claims and decided there wasn't any fraud. >> all right. thanks so much. right there you see on the screen, chris was the politics editors for fox digital during the 2020 election. was one of the guys behind the call of arizona for joe biden
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that night and was fired. >> he writes this long essay in the dispatch explaning why he's here today. he's critical. he said trump should have known better. he's critical of the democrats for how this committee proscess played out. he said i feel uncomfortable playing these small rules. the first rule is to tell the truth as best you can. the second is to stay out of the story. i will fail in latter today but aim for the former. he understands this is an uncomfortable position. he says that he said in this article, it's not like he has a confidential source to protect. he said since they will ask him how fox news went through the process of calling arizona kneels he has to go up there and take the questions and tell the
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truth. >> all he did was his job. he called arizona. he was out there earlier than other networks and news organizations. he was proven correct and instead of standing by him, fox fired him. >> that's exactly right. >> be part about him being in an incredibly uncomfortable pox, i think all of us as journalists can understand that. >> there's the chairman of the committee. >> benny thompson coming in. he feels he has a duty to democracy in order to get the facts out being on the receiving end early on of the twisting of the reality.
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>> we expect him to gavel the proceeding any second. we're hear from chris stirewalt. the subject of today's hear ing. he was aided and abetted in those and there was those in his orbit pushing back. we expect the chairman to gavel in any second. >> the select committee to investigate the january 6th attack on a united states capitol will be in order. without objection, the chair is authorized to declare the
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committee at recess in any point. pursuant to house deposition authority regulation 10, the chair announces the committee's approval to release the deposition material presented during today's hearing. good morning. last week the select committee laid out a preview of our initial findings about the conspiracy overseen and directed by donald trump to over turn the results of the 2020 election and block the transfer of power. a scheme unprecedented in american history. my colleagues and i don't want to spend time talking about ourselves during these hearings but as someone who has run for office a few time, i can tell you at the end of a campaign it all comes down to the numbers. the numbers tell you the winner and the loser. for the most part, the numbers don't lie. if something doesn't add up with
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the numbers, you go to court to get resolution. that's the end of the line. we accept those results. that's what it nmeans to respec the rule of law. that what it means to seek elective office in our democracy. those numbers aren't just numbers. they are votes. they are your votes. they are the will and the voice of the people and the very least we should expect from any person seeking a position of public trust is the acceptance of the will of the people, win or lose. donald trump didn't. he didn't have the numbers. he went to court. he still didn't have the numbers. he lost. he betrayed the trust of the american people. he ignored the will of the voters. he lied to his supporters and the country. he tried to remain in office after the people had voted him
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out, and the courts upheld the will of the people. this morning, we'll tell the story of how donald trump lost an election and knew he lost an election and as a result of his loss, decided to wage an attack on our democracy. an attack on american people by trying to rob you of your voice in our democracy, and in doing so, lit the fuse that led to the horrific violence of january 6th. when a mob of his supporters stormed the capitol, sent by donald trump to stop the transfer of power. today, my colleague from california, miss lofgren and our witnesses will detail the select committee's findings on these matters but first, i will recognize or distinguished vice chair, ms. cheney of wyoming for any opening statement she cares
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to offer. >> thank you very much. last week as the chairman noted, our committee began outlining a seven part plan overseen by trump to over turn the 2020 election. today, we will begin looking at the initial part of that plan. president trump's effort to convince millions of americans that the election was stolen from him by overwhelming fraud. a federal court has already reviewed elements of the committee's evidence on this point, and said this, quote, in the months following the election, numerous credible sources from the president's inner circle to agency leadership and statisticians informed trump and dr. eastman there was no evidence of election fraud, closed quote. sufficient to over turn the 2020 presidential election. the courts opinion methodically documents each of the principled reasons for that conclusion. i would urge all those watching to read it.
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today we will begin to show the american people some of our evidence. today, you will hear much more from a former attorney general bill barr's recorded testimony. you will hear in greater detail what others in the department told president trump, that his claims of election frauds were nonsense. you will also hear much more from trump's own campaign experts who had already concludesed that his fraud claims could not be supported. let me focus briefly on just three points now. first, you will hear first hand testimony that the president's campaign advisers urged him to await the counting of votes and not to declare victory on election night. the president understood even before the election that many more biden voters had voted by mail because president trump ignored the advice of his campaign experts and told his
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supporters only to vote in person. donald trump knew before the election that the counting of those mail in ballots in several states would not begin until late in the day and would not be complete for multiple days. this was expected, reported and widely known. you will also hear testimony that president trump rejected the advice of his campaign experts on election night and instead followed the course recommended by an apparently inebrited rudy giuliani to just claim he won and insist the vote counting stop. the falsely claim everything was fraudulent. he falsely told the american people that the election was not legitimate. in his words, quote, a major fraud. millions of americans believed him. second, pay attention to what donald trump and his legal team said repeatedly about dominion voting machining.
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far flung conspiracies with the deceased venezuelan communist allegedly pulling the strings. this was, quote, complete nonsense as bill barr said. president trump's own campaign advisers, his department of justice and his cyber security experts all told him the same thing. here is white house lawyer eric hersman. his view was shared by many of the trump team whom we interviewed. >> i never saw any to scene those allegations. >> third, as mike pence staff started to get a sense for what donald trump had planned, they called the campaign experts to give them briefing on election frauds and all the other election claims. on january 2nd, the general council of the trump campaign, mat mat
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matthew matthew morgan summarized that none of the arguments about fraud or anything else could actually change the outcome of the election. >> generally discussed on that topic was whether the fraud abused irregularity if aggregated and read most favorably to the campaign, would that be out come determinative. i think every one's assessments in the room was that it was not sufficient to be outcome determinative. >> as is obvious, this was before the attack on the capitol. the trump campaign legal team knew there was no legitimate argument, fraud, irregularities or anything to over turn the election. yet, president trump went ahead
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with his plans for january 6th any way. mr. chamirman, hundreds of our countrymen have faced criminal charges. many are serving criminal sentences because they believed what donald trump said about the election and they acted on it. they came to washington, d.c. at his request. they marched on the capitol at his request. hundreds of them besieged and invaded the building at the heart of our constitutional republic. as one conservative editorial board put it recently, quote, mr. trump betrayed his supporters by conning them on january 6th and he is still doing it. another conservative editorial board that has long supported president trump said last week, donald trump quote, won't stop insisting that 2020 was stolen even though he's offered no proof that is true.
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and this, donald trump now quote, clings to more fan it's a cal theories such as the debunked 2000 mules even as recounts in arizona, georgia and wisconsin confirm trump lost. those are the correct conclusions to draw from the evidence gathered by this committee. we have much more evidence to show the american people on this point than we can reasonably show in one hearing. today, we will begin. thank you mr. chairman. i yield back. >> would you tell us objection, the chair recognizes the gentlewoman from california for an opening statement. >> thank you, mr. chairman. in our opening hearing we gave an over view of our insg investigation into the january 6th attack. the plot the over throw the election was complex and had many parts which we'll explore in remaining hearings.
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today we examine the false narrative that the 2020 election was quote, stolen. for president trump's plan to overturn the election relied on a sustained effort to deceive millions of americans with knowingly false claims of election frauds. all elements of the plot relied on convincing his supporters about these false claims. today, we'll demonstrate the 2020 election was not stolen. the american people elected president joe biden. we'll present evidence that mr. trump's claims of election fraud were false. that he and his closest add visors knew the claims were false but they continued to pedal them any way right up until the moments before a mob of trump supporters attacked the capitol. we'll also show that the trump campaign used these false claims of election frauds to raise hundreds of of millions of dollars from supporters who were
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told their donations were for the legal fight in the courts but the trump campaign didn't use the money for that. the big lie was also a big rip off. the former president laid the ground work for these false claims well in advance of the election. as early as april 2020, mr. trump claimed that the only way he could lose an election would be as a result of fraud. >> you know things we're bundling with thousands of votes are gathered. i'm not going to say which party does it. they are dumped in a location and you lose elections that you think you'll win. >> the only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is rigged. remember that. it's the only way we will lose this election. >> this is going to be a frauds like you've never seen. you see what's going on. take a look at west virginia.
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mailmen selling the ballots. they are being told. they are being dumped in rivers. this is a horrible thing for our country. >> there is no evidence of that. >> this is not going to end well. >> mr. trump decided even before the election that regardless of the facts and the truth, if he lost the election, he would claim it was rigged. he was right about one thing. i want did not end well. on election night, he claimed even before the votes were ro counted that his loss was a result of fraud. on thursday, we had testimony from attorney general barr about the department of justice investigation of mr. trump's fraud claims. barr told trump directly that his claims were bs. yet after hearing the truth and that warning from the ag, mr. trump continued to pedal the false claims of fraud. you'll hear detailed testimony from attorney general barr
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describing the various election fraud claims that the department of justice investigated. he'll tell you how he told mr. trump repeatedly that there was no merit to those claims. mr. barr will tell us the election night claims of frauds were made without regard to the truth and before it was even possible to look for evidence of fraud. attorney general barr wasn't alone. you'll see and hear today other department of justice officials and senior advisers to mr. trump that they told him the claims he was making were not supported by evidence. the election fraud claims were false. mr. trump's closest advisors knew it. mr. trump knew it. that didn't stop him from pushing the false claims and urging his supporters to quote, fight like hell to quote, take back their country. after he lost the election, various legal challenges were
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made. you'll hear testimony today from a renowned republican election litigation lawyer who explained the normal process by which candidates challenge an election. rather than accept the results of the election and the decisions of the courts, mr. trump pursued a different strategy. he tried to convince the american people the election had been stolen. many of his supporters believed him and many still believe him today. the attack on january 6th was a direct and predictable result of mr. trump's decision to use false claims of election frauds to over turn the election and to cling to power. mr. chamber, i yields back. >> thank you very much. i now welcome our first witness. we're joined today by former fox news politics editor, chris
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stirewalt. bill stepien, former president trump's campaign manager was subpoenaed to be here and was in washington this morning prepared to testify. kevin moreno, mr. stepien's attorney is here with us today. thank you for coming. he was advised -- he has advised us that mr. stepien's wife went into labor this morning. mr. stepien unexpectedly had to travel to be with his wife and we wish him the best. we will be presenting that testimony today. i will now swear in our witness. the witness mr. please stand and rise his right hand. do you swear or affirm under
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penalty of perjury that the testimony you're able to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god in. >> i do. >> thank you. you may be seated. let the record reflect the witness answered in the affirmative. i now recognize myself for questions. i want to start by showing a video that tells the story of what was going on in the trump white house on election night in november of 2020. >> do you remember where you were on the night of the election, november 3rd? >> i was at the white house. >> do you know where, specifically, over the course of that night you spent your time within the white house? >> there was an event organized in the residence. i moved between the residence, a room sort of off the residence where some family members were.
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>> i take it the president was upstairs in the residence? >> he was upstairs. we were kind of on the first floor so not upstairs. we were with mostly with ivanka and her brothers and a couple other people. >> what were people expecting that night when you got to the white house? >> i think there was, for people who show up there on election night it's going to be a self-select, more positive environment. i think people were a little bit nervous not knowing what was going to happen with the red wave or the red mirage as the debate was being carried out. >> fox news decision desk is calling arizona for joe biden. that is a big get for the biden campaign. >> arizona's called. do you remember that? >> i do. >> what do you remember happening where you were when arizonas was called?
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>> there was surprise at the call. >> who was surprised? >> most every one in the room. >> you being one of them? >> yes. >> did that shift the atmosphere or the attitude in the white house? >> completely. >> how so, can you describe that? >> because fox news was the first one to go out and say that. >> was it anger kind of directed towards fox news for making that call more son that disappointment that thamaybe th campaign lost arizona? >> all of the above. >> so both? anger and disappointment? >> both disappointment with fox and concern that maybe our data or our numbers weren't accurate. >> were you in the white house residence during the sort of past midnight into the early morning hours of november 4th?
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>> yes. it went over beyond midnight, yes. >> do you remember rudy giuliani being at the white house on election night and into the early hours the next morning? >> i do. >> what do you remember about when he came? >> he was -- i heard he was upstairs in that aforementioned reception area and he was looking to talk to the president, and it was suggested instead that he come talk to several of us down. >> you heard that mr. rudy giuliani wanted to talk to the president and he was directed your way. did you end up talking to him? >> i did. >> what was that conversation?
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>> a lot of conversations were directed my way. a few of us, myself, jason miller, justin clark and mark meadows gathered in a room off the map room to listen to whatever rudy presumably wanted to say to the president. >> was there anyone in that conservation, who in your observation had too much to drink? >> rudy giuliani. >> tell me more about that. what was your observation about his potential intoxication during that discussion about what the president should say when he addressed the nation on election night? >> he was definitely intoxicated but i do not know his level of intoxication when he spoke with the president, for example. >> were you part of any
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discussions with the people i mentioned, mr. stepien, mr. meadows or anyone else about whether the president should make any speech on election night. >> i spoke to the president. they may have been president -- spoke to the president several times that night. >> there were suggestions by, i believe it was major rudy giuliani to declare victory and say we won it out right. >> it was far too early to be making any calls like that. ballots were still being counted. it was far too early to be making any proclamation like that. >> i was saying we should not
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declare victory until we had a better sense of the numbers. >> can you be more specific about that conservation of what major rudy giuliani said and anybody else response in the room. >> i think major giuliani was saying we won it, they're stealing it from us. where did the votes come from. and anyone who didn't agree with this position was being weak. >> what was your view at the time as to what he should or shouldn't say? >> i don't know that i had a firm view as to what he should say in that circumstance. the results were still being counted. it was becoming clear that the race would not be called on election night. >> my belief, my recommendation
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was to say that vote were still being counted, it's too early to tell, too early to call the race. we proud of the race we ran and we think we're in good position and we'll have more to say about this the next day or the next day. when ever we had something to say. >> did anybody who is a part of that conversation disagree with your message? >> yes. >> who was that? >> the president disagreed with that. i don't recall the particular words. he thought i was wrong. he told me so. they were going to go in -- he was going to go in a different direction. >> this is a fraud on the american public.
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this is an embarrassment to our country. we were getting ready to win this election. frankly, we did win this election. [ cheers and applause ] >> mr. stirewalt, did president trump have any basis to declare victory on november 4th, 2020? thank you. mr. stepien also testified that president trump also had no basis for declaring victory at that point in time. >> my belief, my recommendation was to say that votes were still being counted, it's too early to tell, too early to call the race
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but, you know, we proud of the race we ran and we think we're in good position and we'll have more to say about this the next day or the next day. when ever we had something so say. >> thank you. >> thank you. after the votes were counted, who won the presidential election of 2020? >> joseph robinette biden junior of the state of delaware. >> that's the bottom line. we had an election, mr. trump lost. he refuse to accept the results of the democratic process. f i now recognize the gentlewoman
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from california for questions. >> thank you. i'd like you to explain a term that was thrown around a lot during the election. that's the so called red mirage. what does that mean? >> in the 40 or 50 years, let's say, that americans have increasingly chosen to vote by mail or early or absentee. democrats prefer that method of voting more than republicans do. basically republicans win election day and democrats win the early vote. then you wait and start counting. usually it's election day votes that get counted first and you see the republicans shoot ahead and the process of bail and kind booinding and unbinding those mail in votes and some states like pennsylvania refuse to count the votes first so you have to wait for that to come
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in. in every election, it's a national election, you expect to see the republican with a lead but it's not really a lead. for us, who cares. that's because no candidate had ever tried to avail themselves of this quirk in the election counting system. we had gone to pains and i'm proud of the pains we went to to make sure that we were informing viewers that this was going to happen because the trump campaign and the president had made it clear they were going to try to exploit this anomaly and we knew it was going to be bigger because the percentage of early votes was higher. we went from about 45% of the votes being early and absentee to because of the pandemic, that increased by about 50 %. we knew it would be longer and more. we wanted to tell viewers the number you see her is only ir
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relevant because it's only a small percentage of the votes. >> thank you. i'd like to play a clip of attorney general bill barr who also explains what was expected to happen on election night. >> right out of the box on election night, the president claimed there was major fraud under way. it's happened, as far as i could tell before there was any potential evidence. it seemed to be based on the dynamic that at the end of the evening, a will the of democratic votes came in which changed the vote counts in certain states. that seemed to be the basis for this broad claim there was major fraud. i didn't much of that because people had been talking for weeks and every one understood
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for weeks that would be what happened on election night. >> mr. stepien, obviously could not be with us today and it's proper for him to be with his wife as they welcome their child, but he also had discussions with the president about the red mirage that is it would be a long night and that early votes would favor him. lots more votes would be counted over the course of the night and the days after. let's play clip one from our interview with mr. stepien. >> i recounted back to that conversation with him in which i said, just like i said in 2016 it's going to be a long night. i told him in 2020 that it was going to be a process, again, as the early returns will be positive and we're going to be watching the returns of ballots
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as they rolled in. >> present what you thought would be a realistic picture of what you thought might happen? >> that night and the days that followed. i always, you know, i always told the president the truth and, you know, i think he expected that from me and i told him it was going to be a process. it was going to be, you know, we'll have to wait and see how this turned out. just like i did in 2016, i did the same thing in 2020. >> let's watch a short clip of president trump speaking after he received that information from his campaign advisors.
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>> we won all voting to stop. we don't want them to find any ballots at 4:00 in the morning and add them to the list. >> when former president trump said that, it contradicted what his advisors warned what would happen. we all know that mail in ballots played an important role in the 2020 election. however, president trump continuously discouraged mail in voting. mr. stepien was so concerned about the president's position on mail in voting that in the summer of 2020, he met with president trump along with house minority leader kevin mccarthy. let's play clip four. >> meeting that was had, in particular, i invited kevin mccarthy to join the meeting. he being of like mind on the issue with me.
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we made our case for why we believed mail in voting not to be a bad thing for his campaig, but the president's mind was made up and he understands how many times to go to the well on a particular topic. >> yeah, i understand. tell me a bit more about the argument that you and mr. mccarthy made to the president in that meeting as to why it wasn't a bad thing that mail in voting was available. >> largely two pillars to that argument both of which i've previously mentioned. one, you know, leaving a good deal to chance, pushing or
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urging voters to vote on lek day leaves a lot to chance. that's a. b, also previously mentions the fact that the trump campaign, republican national committee, republican party had an advantage of grass roots workers and volunteers on the ground that would allow an advantage to enhance return rates of ballots that were mailed. those were the two pillars of the argument. >> i see. what, if anything, do you recall representative mccarthy saying during that meeting? >> we were echoing the same argument. his words echoed mine and vice versa on those two topics. >> mr. stirewalt you were at the decision desk on fox news on election night and you called arizona early for president biden, which was controversial. how did you make that call and
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where did you think the race stood in the early hours of the next day? >> well, it was really controversial to our competitors who we beat so badly by making the correct call first. our decision desk was the best in the business and i was very proud to be part of it. because we had partnered with the associated press and the national opinion research center at the university of chicago, thanks to my colleague and friend had built a wonderful device for forecasting the outcomes of lelections. we had a different set of data than our competitors. we had more research, better system and a great team. what you're waiting to see is do the actual votes match up with the expectations in the poll. the real votes are testing the quality of your polls. our poll in arizona was beautiful. it was doing just what we wanted it to do. it was cooking up just right.
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at some point, and i forget exactly who, but at some point it became clear that arizona was getting ready to make a call. we around my boss, bill salmon said wiie're not making any cal until everybody said yes. that was our policy. in this room you have the best. people from academia, democrats, republicans. a broad cross section of people who worked together for decade and really serious about this stuff. we knew it would be a consequential call because it was one of five states that mattered. we knew it would be significant to call any up with of those five. we knew trump's chances were very small and getting smaller based on what we had seen. we were able to make the call early. we were able to beat the competition. we looked around the room,
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everybody says yay and on we go. by the time we found out how much efb was freaking out and losing their minds over this call, we were already trying to call the next state. we were in georgia, north carolina. we were looking at these other states. we thought it was -- we were pleased but not surprised. >> i see. after the election, as of november 7th, in your judgment, what were the chances of president trump winning the election? >> after that point? >> yes. >> none. i guess you -- it's always possible that you could have a truckload of ballots be found somewhere, i suppose. once you get into there space, you know, ahead of today, i thought about what are the largest margins that could ever be over turned by a recount in the normal stuff we heard mike pence talk about sounding like a normal republican that night when he said we'll keep every challenge. nothing like that. in a recount you're talk about
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hundreds of votes. when we think about calling a race, one of the things we would think about is, is it outside the margin of a recount. when we think about that margin, we think about a thousands votes, 1500 votes. at the way, way outside, normally you're talking about hundreds of vote, maybe 300 votes that will change. the idea that through any normal process any any of these states, remember he had to do it thrice. he needed three states to change. in order to do that, you're at -- better off to play the power ball than to have that come in. >> on november 7th, the other major news outlets called the race for president biden. mr. stepien told the committee that he thought the odds were and this is a quote, very, very, very bleak and held a meeting with the president that same
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day. let's show clip 8. >> each day that wore on, the trajectory of the race on lek night, trump ahead, in many states and as that week wore on, the third became the fourth, became the fifth and so on and so forth and the vote by mail ballot were tabulated, trump's lead, you know, grew more narrow and in some places biden surpassed trump in the vote totals. as the week wore on, as we paid attention to those numbers every single, multiple times a day, internally, i was feeling less confident. >> what was your view on the state of the election, at that point? >> you know, very, very, very bleak. we told him the group that went
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over tle out-- there outlined m belief for chance of success at this point. we pegged it at 5, maybe 10% based on recounts that either were automatically initiated or could be initiated based on realistically legal challenges. not all the legal challenges that were pursued. my belief is it was very, very, 5 to 10% is not good optimistic outlook. >> as president trump and others continued to claim that the election was stolen, there were lawyers who were part of the campaign who were responsible for investigating the fraud claims that includes alex cannon who could not validate the
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claims that were being made, including those being made by the president. let's roll video 15. >> this is an e-mail. it's two e-mails. the first is from alex canon to you an faith mcpherson and you forwarded that e-mail onto mark meadows, justin clark and jason miller. the subject being az, federal id voters. if you look at the original e-mail there. it says, bill, we completed the az analalysis you requested. i assume that's about arizona p because of the uncertainty surrounding the databases, this is a highly unreliable way to identify voters. can you explain the task you gave to miss canon for this arizona analysis? >> sure. previously, i described some of
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my frustration with some of the claims that people would throw at president trump regarding, you know, need to look at this. this happened in this state or that happened in that state. it would be, those would flow to us to look into. this is an example of that. i recall in arizona someone had thrown out, i believe this to be the claim that there were thousands of illegal citizens, people not eligible to vote having cast their ballots in arizona. someone had thrown out that claim to president trump and with the margins being as close as they were, as i previously described, that could
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potentially matter. this wild claim is thrown out that on its face didn't seem realistic or possible. i asked alex to look at the, you know, the claim and i haven't read this full e-mail but i recall the response to that reality of that was not illegal citizens voting in the election. it was like over seas voters voting in the election. >> when these findings were passed up the chain to president trump. he became frustrated and he replaced the campaign's legal team. let's play clip 14. >> you know, the president, it was during the second week where things like where he was growing
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increasingly unhappy with his team, me, less so because i was less involved at this point but still me. growing increasingly unhappy with justin clark and that kind of, you know, paved the way for justin to be moved out and major giuliani be moved in as the person in charge of the legal side of the campaign and for all intents and purposes the campaign at that point. >> now, when mr. stepien became campaign manager, he was the second trump campaign manager for the 2020 race and there were only about 115 days until election day. let's play the video. >> i inherited a campaign that
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was, the day i was hired was believe president trump's low point in the 2020 daily average polling against president biden. it was a campaign on low point in the polls. it was structurally and fiscally deficient. there was a great deal wrong with the campaign in both of those areas. most of my day spent fixing what, i think i took over with 115 days left in the campaign. most of my time was spent fixing the things that could be fixed with 115 days left in the campaign. >> now, mr. stepien has been in the campaign field for long time and he worked for lots of different candidates in campaigns. he testified to this committee
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about his concerns given the claims that mr. giuliani and miss powell and their team were making publicly. let's play clip 15. >> okay. it's important for you to pull back, for your own professional reputation, you didn't want to be associated with some of what you were hearing from the giuliani team and others that sort of stepped in the wake of your departure? >> i didn't mind being categorized. there were two groups. we called them my team and rudy's team. i didn't mind being characterized as being part of team normal as reporters kind of started to do around that point in time. i said hours ago, early on that i've been doing this for a long time. 25 years and i've spanned political ideologies from trump
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to mccain to bush to christy. i can work under a lot of circumstances for a lot of varied candidates and politicians but situation where -- i think along the way, i've built up a pretty good reputation for being honest and professional. i didn't think what was happening was necessarily honest or professional at that point in time. that led to me stepping away. >> so, the president did get rid of team normal and i'd like to play a clip showing that the president found the people he needed to perpetuate his claims of fraud. >> they saw a big truck bringing in 100,000 ballots in garbage cans, in waste paper baskets, in
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cardboard boxes and in shopping baskets and every single one of them was for biden because they were being notified by smartic in frankford that biden was behind. we can prove everything i said. if you gave me paper ballots, i could probably turn around each one of these states. i'm convinced if you let me examine each one, i'd pull out enough that were fraudulent. that it would shake the hell out of the country. >> it can set and run an algorithm that probably ran all over the country to take a certain percentage of votes from president trump and flip them to president biden which we might never have uncovered had the votes for president trump not been so overwhelming in so many of these states that it broke the algorithm. >> i remember that one of the things mark said at some point was you can't show an actual
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vote was flipped, which i found, at the time to be a remarkable assertion because p you don't he to have the gun to see the body lying on the floor bleedsing out with five bullet holes in it was killed by a gun. >> what they were proposing, i thought, was nuts. the theory was completely nuts. there's a combination about italians. different things had been flowing around about who was involved. >> did you ever share your view
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of mr. giuliani with the president? >> i guess -- yes. >> tell me what you said. >> basically not the approach i would take if i was you. >> how did he react? how did president trump react when you shared that view with him? >> he said, i have confidence in rudy. >> i think i had conversations with probably all of our counsel who are signed up to assist on election day as they disengaged with the campaign. the general consensus was that law firms were not comfortable making the arguments that rudy giuliani was making. i seem to recall i had a similar conversation with most all of them. >> i made it clear i did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff which i
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told the president was bullshit. i didn't want to be a part of it. that's one of the reasons that went into my deciding to leave when i did. >> even sydney powell defending herself in a defamation lawsuit brought by dominion voting systems argued that quote, no reasonable person would concludes that her statements were truly statements of fact. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> i thank the witness for joining us today. the first panel is now dismissed. without objection.
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the chair recognizes the gentlewoman from california. >> thank you mr., mr. chairman. last week we presented the testimony of former attorney bill barr who testified before this committee. today we present additional evidence, including his testimony that former president trump started making claims of election fraud immediately after the election and that barr concludesed the claims were untrue. due to the length of attorney general barr's testimony we will only include relevant portions at the hearing today. let's play the video. >> when we received specific and credible allegations of fraud, made an effort to look into these to satisfy ourselves that they were without merit. i was in the posture of trying
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to figure out, it was a avalanche of these allegations of fraud that built up and it was like playing whack-a-mole because something would come one day and another day it's another issue. i was influenced by the fact that the early claims that i understood were completely bogus and silly and usually based on complete misinformation. i didn't consider the quality of claims right out of the box to give me any feeling there was really substance here. >> for the first time since the election, the attorney general spoke personally with the president on november 23rd. this was at the white house. let's play the video, please. >> on november 23rd, i had not spoken to the president since the election and in fact, as i said since the middle of october, roughly.
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it was a little getting awkward because obviously he had lost the election and i had not said anything to him. i came over the meet with the president in the oval office and mea meadows was there. the president said there had been major fraud and that as soon as the facts were out, the results of the election would be reversed. he went on for quite a while, as he's prone to do. then he got to something that i was expecting which is to say that apparently the department of justice doesn't think it has a role of looking into these fraud claims. i said, that has to be the campaign that raises that with the state. the department doesn't take sides in elections.
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the department is not an extension of your legal team. our role is to investigate fraud and we'll look at something if it's specific, credible and could effect the outcome of the election. we're doing that. it's just not meritorious. it's not panning out. as i walked out of the oval office, jared was there with dan scavino who ran the president's social media who i thought was a reasonable guy and believed add a reasonable guy, and i said, how long is he going to carry on with this stolen election stuff? where is this going to go? by that time, meadows had caught up with me belie leaving the of and said that, he said i think
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that he's becoming more realistic and knows that it's limit to how far he can take this and jared said, we're working on this. we're working on it. >> even after his attorney general told him his claim of election fraud were false, president trump continued to promote these claims. >> i felt that things continue to deteriorate between the 23rd and the weekend of the 29th. then on november 29th, he appeared on maria bartiroma show, sunday futures, and he said the department was missing in action. >> we had glitches where they moved thousand of votes from my account to biden's account. they are not glitches. they are fraud. this election is over and then they did dumps.
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they call them dumps. big, massive dumps in michigan, in pennsylvania and all over. how the fbi and department of justice, i don't know, maybe their involved. how people are allowed to get away with this stuff is unbelievable. >> now, spurred by what he saw, barr told the associated press on december 1st that there was no evidence of election fraud and immediately after, attorney general barr state went public. mr. trump berated and nearly fired barr but barr persisted in telling the president there was no evidence to support the fraud claims. >> this got under my skin but i also felt it was time for me to say something. i had -- i set up a lunch with the ap reporter and i told him at lunch, i made the statement
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that to date we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different out justice of the peace come in the election. i had a later meeting scheduled at the white house at 3:00 with meadows. this was previously scheduled. i knew this was going to come up. i went over there and i told my secretary that i thought i would probably be fired and not to go back to my office. i said you might have to pack up for me. when i got over there, i met with the chief of staff. he said the president was angry. he didn't really go -- get into the issue of the fraud. then i went up to pat's office and we were talking with each other. the word came down he wanted us both to go to the oval. the president was as mad as i've
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seen him. he was trying to control himself. he said this killing me. you didn't have to say there. you must have said this because you hate trump. you hate trump. then he raised the big vote dump, as he called it, in detroit. he said people saw boxes coming into the counting station at all hours of the morning and so forth. i explained to him that at that point i knew the exact number of precincts in detroit. i think it was 630 something. i said there's 630 precincts in detroit and unlike elsewhere many state, they centralize the counting process. they're not counted in each presp pre precinct. they are plmoved to counting stations. the normal process would involve boxes coming in at different hours. did anyone point out the you that you did better in detroit than you did last time? there's no indication of fraud
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in detroit. i toeld him the stuff people wee shoveling out was bullshit. he was indignant about that. they wasted a whole month on these claims on the dominion voting machines and they were idiotic claims. i raised the voting machines which i found to be among the most disturbing allegations in the sense that i saw absolutely zero basis for the allegations. they were influencing lot of people, members of the public that there was this systemic corruption in the system and their votes didn't count and these machines controlled by somebody else were determining it, which was complete nonsense
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and it was being laid out there. i told them that it was crazy stuff and wasting their time on that. it was doing grave disservice to the country. >> okay. the very next day, the president released a video rehashing some of the very same claims that his chief law enforcement officer had told him were quote, nonsense. >> here is an example. this is michigan. at 6:31 in the morning, a vote dump of 149,772 votes came in. unexpectedly. we were winning by a lot. that batch was received in horror. we have a company that's very
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suspect. it's name is dominion. with the turn of dial, with a change of a clip, you can press a button for trump and the vote goes for biden. what kind of a system is this? >> barr, again told the president that there was nothing to these claims on december 14th. >> when i walked in, sat down, he went off on a monologue saying there was now definitive evidence involving fraud through the dominion machines and a report had been prepared by a very reputable cyber security firm which he identified as allied security operations group and he held up the report and he asked a copy be made for me. while a copy was being made, he
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said this is absolute proof that the dominion machines were rigged. the report means that i'm going to have a second term. then he gave me copy of the report. as he talked more and more about it, i sat there flipping through the report and looking through it. to be frank, it looked very amateurish to me. didn't have the predecredential people involved. the statements were made very c conclusory like. these machines were designed to engage in frauds. i didn't see any supporti ing information for it. i was demoralized because i thought, boy, if he really believes this stuff, he has lost contact with -- he's become detached from reality if he
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detached from reality if he really believes this stuff. on the other hand, i would tell him how critiazy some of the allegations were. there was no interest in what the facts were. my opinion then and now is that the election was not stolen by fraud. and i haven't seen anything since the election that changes my mind on that. including the 2000 mules movie. >> well, maybe you can assess that 2000 mule since people are talking about that. >> well, just in a nutshell, you know, i just think the gbi was unimpressed with it, and i was similarly unimpressed with it, because i was holding my fire on that to see what the photographic evidence was, because i thought well, hell, if
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they have a lot of photographs of the same person dumping a lot of ballots in different boxes, that's hard to explain. so i wanted to see what the photographic evidence was. but the cell phone data is singularly unimpressive. if you take 2 million cell phones and figure out where they are physically in a big city like atlanta or wherever, just by definition you're going to find many hundreds of them have passed by and spent time in the vicinity of these boxes, and the premise that if you go buy five boxes or whatever it was, you know, that that's a mule. it's just indefensible. by definition, you're going to have a lot -- hundreds of this. i saw one contractor said we figured out that our truck alone would account for six cell phone signals. this was some kind of
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contractor. and our rule would take us by these things on a regular basis. when the movie came out, i think the photographic evidence in it was completely lack -- i mean, there was a little bit of it, but it was lacking. you know? it didn't establish widespread illegal harvesting. the other thing is people don't understand, that it's not clear that even if you can show harvesting, that that changes the results of the election. courts are not going to throw out votes and then figure out what votes were harvested and throw them out. the burden is on the challenging party to show that illegal votes were cast. votes were the result of undue influence or bribes, or there was really, the person was non -- but absent that evidence,
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i didn't see courts throwing out votes anyway. i felt that before the the election it was possible to talk sense to the president, and while you sometimes had to engage in big wrestling match with him, that it was possible to keep things on track, but i was -- i felt that after the election he didn't seem to be listening, and i didn't think it was -- you know, that i was inclined not to stay around if he wasn't listening to advice from me or his other cabinet secretaries. >> so on december 14th, barr quit. now, the attorney general wasn't the only person who told the president that his claims were false. other officials and close advisers told him the same thing. >> other than trying to address
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a hypothetical, let me just say there were instances where the president would say people are telling me this, or i've heard this, or i saw on television, you know, this improtryty in pennsylvania or something. we were in a position to say how people might have looked at that and know that you're getting bad information. that's not correct. and he demonstrated to me it's incorrect from our point of view. it's been debunked. >> a month and a half or so after the election day, and at that meeting, various allegations of fraud were discussed. and erik and pat didn't dc r -- told the presgroup, the preside
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included that they couldn't be the basis for litigation challenge to the election. >> president trump's own vice president and his top advisers also knew that there wasn't evidence to support the claims that the president was making. >> anyone else other than mr. meadows who asked you about the status outside of your legal group, you know, mr. morgan and the others you mentioned? and i want to ask you the status of what you're finding and your assessment of it. >> yes, sir. >> who is that? >> peter navarro. >> when did you talk to mr. navarro? >> mid november. >> around the same time as mr. mea meadows? >> yes, sir. >> and tell me about that
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conversation. >> i recall him asking me questions about dominion and maybe some other categories of allegations, voter fraud, and i remember telling him that i didn't believe the dominion allegations because i thought the hand recount in georgia would resolve any issues with the technology problem, and with dominion or dominion flipping votes. and i mentioned at that time that this is chris crabs had recently released a report saying the election was secure, and i believe mr. navarro accused of me being an agent of the deep state working with chris crabs against the president, and i never took another phone call from mr. navarro. >> anyone besides mr. navarro,
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meadows or herselfman that you had discussions with inquiring about what you were finding in your -- in view of the allegations that were pouring in? >> i believe i had about a 15 second conversation with the vice president about it as well. >> when was that? >> during one of the visits to the white house. i don't know which one. i think it was the first one in november. i was -- i had met him briefly at the campaign, and he remembered me and saw me. and he asked what i was doing on the campaign, and i told him that we were looking into some of the issues related to voter fraud. and he asked me, i don't remember his exact words, but he asked me if we were finding anything, and i said that i
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didn't believe we were finding -- or i was not personally finding anything sufficient to alter the results of the election. and he thanked me. that was our interaction. >> at a later hearing, you'll hear live testimony from the former acting deputy attorney general of the department of justice, rich donahue, but now i'd like to play a portion of his testimony. >> i tried to, again, put this in perspective and to try to put it in very clear terms for the president. and i said something to the effect of sir, we've done dozens of investigations, hundreds of interviews. the major allegations are not supported by the evidence developed. we've looked at georgia, pennsylvania, michigan, nevada. we're doing our job. much of the information you're getting is false. and then i went into for instance, this thing from michigan, this report about 68%
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error rate. reality is it was only .0063% error rate. less than one in 15,000. so the president accepted that. he said okay, fine. but what about the others? and again, this gets back to the point that there were so many of the allegations that when you gave him the very direct answer on one of them, he wouldn't fight us on it, but he would move to another allegation. so then i talked about a little bit about the pennsylvania truck driver. this was another allegation that had come up. and this claim was by a truck driver who believed, perhaps, honestly, that he had transported an entire trip -- tractor trailer truck full of ballots from new york to pennsylvania. and this was, again, out there in the public and discussed. and i essentially said look, we looked at that allegation.
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we looked at both ends, both the people who load the truck and the people who unload the truck. and that galgs was not supported by the evidence. again, he said okay, then he said i didn't mention that one. what about the others? and i said okay, well, with regard to georgia, we looked at the tape, interviewed the witnesses y. there is no suitcase. the president kept fix sating oa suitcase that was rolled out from under the table. i said there is no suitcase. watch it over and over. there is a wheeled win where they carried the ballots, and that's just how they move ballots around that facility. there's nothing suspicious about that at all. i told him that there was no multiple scanning of the ballots when part of the allegation was they were taking one ballot and
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scanning it through three or four, five times to rack up votes presumably for vice president biden. i told him the video did not support that. then he went off on double voting. the top of the next page. he said dead people are voting. indians are getting paid to vote. he meant people on native american reservations. he said there's lots of fraud going on here. i told him flat out much of the information he's getting is false. and/or just not supported by the evidence. we looked at the allegations, but they don't pan out. >> mr. barr and his advisers were not the only ones who determined that the president's allegations regarding dominion voting machines were false. mr. chairman, i ask unanimous consent to include in the record of this hearing reports issued by the department of homeland security's cyber security and
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infrastructure security agency. otherwise known as cicss. that rejected the claims of manipulation of voting machines in the 2020 election. >> without objection. so ordered. >> thank you. i also ask unanimous consent to include in the record a report prepared by the michigan senate oversight committee that disproved claims of election fraud in michigan as well as the statement by 59 of the countries leading election security scientists. noting the absence of any credible evidence that the 2020 election had been altered through technical compromise and five other reports from organizations and individuals confirming there was no widespread fraud in the 2020 election, or describing the spread of the former president's lies. >> without objection. so ordered. >> thank you, mr. chairman. and i yield back.
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>> pursuant to the order of the committee for today, the chair declares the committee in recess for a period of approximately ten minutes. >> ten minutes of recess now as the committee takes a quick break. we heard some devastating testimony from a number of trump insiders. perhaps the star witness, former attorney general, bill barr. who at one point said he was beginning to believe that donald trump after the election was becoming detached from reality. we also heard from other justice department officials and other individuals on the trump campaign. all of them testifying to the committee that they had tried to tell donald trump that he had lost the election and he kept believing unhinged conspiracy theory after unhinged conspiracy theory. dana bash? >> absolute vivid descriptions. painting a picture of just what you described. of a president of the united states one after another re
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rejecting the data-based advice he was getting from his campaign manager, from the attorney general of the united states, from the legal team that he ended up firing. all of that advice, he rejected, and he instead, chose -- this is the way they described it. a drunk giuliani and the people in his orbit. and wanting to listen to the people who were telling him what he wanted to hear. what they didn't yet talk about, jake, was whether or not the president knew whether he had intent that he knew what he was saying was false. >> and at some point it's a question of does that matter? when everybody around you is telling you that it's not true, does it really matter? perhaps that's a question for the lawyers. but there's another element to several of the pieces of testimony. bill barr and other people around him, saying it got much more difficult to convince the president of anything rational.
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they're raising the question that we heard from adam kinzinger, one of the republicans on this committee over the weekend who basically said if trump, in fact, does believe all of these lies and conspiracy theories, now we also have questions about his capacity, his mental capacity in that role. and i think that's actually the elephant in the room of a lot of this testimony. bill barr basically saying you can't rationalize with this guy. >> there's something else going on here, though, and this was a huge win for the committee. and donald trump's head is exploding right now. because all of those people are inner circle. from his children to his lawyers to his campaign director. bill barr was the star witness. i agree with you. each and every one said there was no fraud, and here are some of the terms. idiotic, quote, bullshit, nuts, crazy, nonsense, laughable. we heard about team normal.
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this, whatever donald trump's intent was, today was bad for him. >> incredibly important as you look back at what happened to jamie's point. young attorneys. old guard people bill barr. the political team, everybody. he gets roinl and sydney powell. that's looking back where the historical record is critical. he's still the most dominant force in the republican party. the man who wants to be speaker continues to raise money off him. the vast majority of republicans will not say we need a clean break from this. what you're hearing today is corrupt. i'll leave it to the lawyers. i have a good one next to me. is it illegal? i don't know. i'm not a lawyer. it's corrupt, and it's repeatedly corrupt after being told sir, you lost. do the right thing. >> when donald trump could not find a yes man among his cabinet, he created an army of yes men by planting seeds time and time again over the course of more than three months to try
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to secure the yes men in a crowd headed to the capitol. every time you heard about the irony of him claiming fraud or searching for fraud against all rational thought, he was essentially committing overt facts and furtherance of fraud. defrauding the united states. there is every inference that he was aware. that he was no longer the president of the united states. that there had been sates that started to fite it. that they had exhausted all remedies, and he still sought to have the yes man. in this way they have laid out the basic tenets of defrauding the united states. it's astounding it's taken us this long to get here and they're not even done. >> the hearing continues ahead with testimony from former republican officials in georgia and pennsylvania. they were targets of trump's ire after they rejected his false claims of election fraud. stay right there.
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>> the january 6th hearing will resume with more live testimony. we're standing by to hear from two republican officials from georgia who rejected trump's bogus claims of election fraud
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in georgia and pennsylvania. also testifying a highly respected republican election lawyer who has been outspoken in declaring that he has found no evidence of widespread fraud. let's dig deeper right now into all the powerful testimony that we just heard from former attorney general bill barr. he testified behind closed doors that he feared the president of the united states was becoming detached from reality as trump continued embracing bogus and outlandish claims of fraud. evan perez, you're learning more about barr's role in trying to influence trump officials as they faced the president's full court press on these election lies. >> right. jake, look, bill barr is -- he's certainly emerged in this as a key witness who essentially sets the tone for what became known as team normal. the people trying to tell the former president that there was nothing behind -- nothing to support his claims of fraud. and you can hear from barr the fact that not only was he -- did
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he look. he waited a few days, tried to see whether or not any of these claims would stand up, and he decided that there wasn't any. what you're going to hear from the next witnesses including bj pac and from the other officials on wednesday, is more of the same. that they looked. they tried. they did hundreds of witnesses, interviews. they looked at dozens of investigations and could find nothing. >> all right. thank you so much, evan. and let's talk about what we just heard. because one of the things we heard, dana bash, is the degree to which trump sounded like a crazy facebook post. what about the dump in the middle of the night in detroit and what about the pennsylvania tractor trailer driver, and what about the cleveland ice cream vendor. nonsense after nonsense. you heard the election officials. they had answers for all of them. >> bill barr called it whack a mole. that was the feeling you got listening. what we're about to see is an extension of the bill barr
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testimony which is bj pack who worked for the justice department specifically in georgia, and what bar described was a president who believed that the federal government, the doj, was supposed to do his work for him politically. and that's clearly going to be something that we're going to hear talked about, explained in first person accounts. >> and abbey, we have not heard from bj pack. others have done interviews, but this will be the first time the former trump u.s. attorney from northern georgia testifies publicly and shares his story. >> yeah. and that will be so fascinating. because when he resigned basically, it was under mysterious circumstances. it seemed clear it was connected to this. but it was in the context of trump personally. remember, personally making phone calls to georgia officials to ask them to basically find votes, and i'm curious about what the committee has on that front. because when you ask to find votes, it seems to imply that you know that there are no
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legitimate means to uncover fraud that would show that you won. it seems to imply trump knew he needed to just come up with a number that would show him winning over joe biden. >> and the committee is walking in there. the chairman, democrat of mississippi, vice chair liz cheney, republican of wyoming. we'll hear from three election officials. all three of them republican. all three of them underlining the fact that trump's claims of widespread fraud were not true. and these are three proud republicans we should point out, former philadelphia city commissioner al schmidt. bj pack. before he was a u.s. attorney he was a georgia state representative. and ben ginsberg. i believe bennie thompson is going to gavel in. let's listen. >> the committee will be in order. i welcome our second panel of witnesses. we're joined today by bj pack,
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al smith, and ben ginsberg. mr. pack is a former united states attorney for the northern district of georgia. mr. smith is a former city commissioner for the city of philadelphia where he served for more than ten years. mr. ginsberg is one of the leading election law attorneys in the country. and has represented republican presidential candidates in election litigation dating back to 2020 where he represented george w. bush in the bush v gore litigation. i will now swear in the witnesses. please stand and raise your right hand. do you swear or affirm on the penalty of perjury that the testimony you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god? >> i do. >> thank you. please be seated.
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>> let the record reflect the witnesses answered in the affirmative. pursuant to section 5-c-8 of house resolution 503, i now recognize the gentlewoman from california for questions. >> thank you, mr. chairman. before the break, i think you all heard mr. barr and mr. donahue talk about the false claims that mr. trump and his supporters made about suitcases of fake ballots in georgia. we have a witness here today who thoroughly investigated that issue. mr. pack, i want to thank you for appearing before us today. you were appointed by president trump to serve as the u.s. attorney for the northern district of georgia, and you served from 2017 until january of 2021. you were the lead federal prosecutor there, and worked for the department of justice under
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then attorney general bill barr. were you ever asked by attorney general barr to investigate claims of voter fraud in the 2020 election? and if so, what were those claims? >> thank you, congresswoman. thank you for the question. approximately december 4th, i believe, of 2020, attorney general barr and i had a conversation about an unrelated case. the case at issue. at the end of the conversation, mr. barr had asked me if i had seen a certain videotape that was being reported in the news where mr. giuliani in a senate sub committee hearing that was held the day before, may 3rd, showed a videotape of a purportedly -- a security tape at the state farm arena in atlanta which is also in fulton county, the city of atlanta.
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i'm sorry. city of -- yes. at the time, mr. barr asked me that he had made a public statement that he had not seen any widespread election fraud that would question the outcome of the election, and because of the videotape and the serious allegation that mr. giuliani was making with respect to the suitcase full of ballots purported in the video, he asked me to find out what i could about it, because he had envisioned that in some days after our call that he was going to go to the white house for a meeting and that issue might come up. he asked me to make it a priority to get to the bottom of -- to try to substantiate the allegation made by mr. giuliani. >> thank you. i understand the georgia secretary of state's office investigated those state farm arena allegations and didn't find any evidence of fraud.
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what did you find when your office conducted its own investigation? >> we found that the suitcase full of ballots, the alleged black suitcase that was being seen pulled from under the table, was actually an official lock box where ballots were kept safe. we found out that there was a mistake in terms of misunderstanding that they were done counting ballots or tallying ballots for the night, and the partisan watchers that was assigned by each of the respective parties were announced and sent home. once they realized the mistake, someone from the secretary of state's office indicated no, we're not done for the night. you need to go ahead and continue counting. so once they packed up the lock box full of ballots, they brought back the official ballot box again and continued to tally the ballots from that lock box. unfortunately, during the senate
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hearing, mr. giuliani only played a clip that showed them pulling out the official ballot box from under the table, and referring to that as a smoking gun of a fraud in fulton county, but in actuality in review of the entire video, it showed an official ballot box that was kept underneath the table and then we saw them pack up, because the announcement they thought they were done for the night, and then once the announcement was made, then you should continue counting, they brought the ballot box back out, and they continued to count. we interviewed the fbi interviewed the individuals that are depicted in the videos. the purportedly they were double, triple counting of the ballots, and determined that nothing irregular happened in the counting. and the allegations made by mr. giuliani were false. >> thank you very much. i'd like to play again testimony
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from mr. donahue who appeared before the committee before today. >> mr. donahue, we talked at some length about whether or not the white house and the president was informed about the interim report. on the results of the investigation, the interviewed that had gone on on fulton county, how would those results have been communicated to the white house, to the president? >> i don't know how they were initially communicated. i do know they came up in subsequent conversations with the president, and we essentially told them, we looked into that, and it's just not true. >> okay. so he was -- he was informed? >> i told the president myself that several times in several conversations, that these allegations about ballots being smuggled in in a suitcase and run through the machines several times, it was not true.
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that we looked at it and the video and interviewed the witnesses. it was not true. >> mr. pack, after you left the u.s. attorney's office on january 4th, 2021, did the next u.s. attorney there, i think mr. trump's personal pick, did he investigate any remaining claims of fraud, and if so, did he find any evidence that supported the president's claims of voter fraud? >> it is my understanding that mr. christine continued any investigations pending at the time of my departure, but he was unable to find any evidence of fraud that affected the outcome of the election. >> so after investigating the president's and mr. giuliani's claims about voter fraud in georgia, is it your view today that there was no evidence of widespread fraud sufficient to undermine confidence in the outcome of the election in georgia? >> that is correct. >> thank you, mr. pack. and i want to thank you also for the service that you've given
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the our country. we appreciate that. next i'd like to turn to president trump's false allegations about election integrity in philadelphia. the attorney general discussed these allegations at some length. >> you know, the idea the president has repeatedly suggested that there was some kind of outpouring of unexpected votes in inner city areas like philadelphia as recently as january 1st when he walked off the npr set. he was asked by the interviewer, what's -- what's your evidence of fraud? and he said more people voted in philadelphia than there were voters. and that was absolutely rubbish. the turnout in philadelphia was in line with the state's turnout, and in fact, it was not as impressive as many suburban counties, and there was nothing strange about the philadelphia
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turnout. it wasn't like there was all these unexpected votes that came out in philadelphia. so i think once you actually look at the votes and then there's an obvious explanation, he -- for example, in pennsylvania trump ran weaker than the republican ticket generally. he ran weaker than two of the state candidates. he ran weaker than the congressional delegation, running for federal congress, and he ran weaker than the -- i think, i haven't looked at this recently. but he generally was a weak element on the republican ticket. so that does not suggest that the election was stolen by fraud. >> how about pennsylvania and bill mcswan in you were talking to the u.s. attorney in philadelphia about it the alleged discrepancy between the number of ballots issued and cast? >> that was one of the big ones for a period of time. i think that was raised at
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gettysburg by giuliani. but it kept being repeated. i found it annoying, because i didn't think it was right. i called mcswan e. he got back to me, and said the problem is someone threw out a number. and he mixed apples and oranges. he took the number of applications for the republican primary and compared it to the number of absentee votes cast in the general election. once you look and compare apples to apples, there's no discrepancy at all. i think at some point i covered that with the president. >> we have another witness here today who has detailed knowledge about the election process in philadelphia. mr. schmidt, at the time of the 2020 presidential election, you
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were serving as the only republican member of philadelphia's three-member city commission which is responsible for overseeing elections throughout the city. is that correct? >> that's correct. >> so president trump made numerous claims regarding fraudulent voting practices in philadelphia, including the claim that dead people were voting. in fact, mr. giuliani told pennsylvania state legislators that 8,000 dead people voted in pennsylvania. you investigated those claims of voter fraud. can you tell us what you found? >> not only was there not evidence of 8,000 dead voters voting in pennsylvania. there wasn't evidence of eight. we took seriously every case referred to us no matter how fan it's a cal or absurd and took every one of those seriously including these. >> as it turns out, even mr.
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trump's campaign lawyers knew the dead voter claims weren't valid? >> i guess the crooks in philadelphia are disappointed in this. they only submitted 8021 ballots from dead people. mail-in ballots for dead people. probably easier for dead people to submit mail-in ballots than it is to vote in person. >> rudy was at this stage of his life, and the same ability to manage things at this level or not. obviously i think it was publicly said, they never proved the allegations that they were making. and they were trying to develop. >> mr. schmidt, on november 11th, 2020, president trump tweeted about you, saying and here's a quote, a guy named al schmidt, a philadelphia commissioner and so-called republican or rino is being used big time by the fake news media
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to explain how honest things were with respect to the election in philadelphia. he refuses to look at a mountain of corruption dishonesty. we win. as a result of that tweet, and the cnn interview you gave where you stated the dead voter claims in pennsylvania were false, you and your staff were subjected to disturbing threats. can you tell us about that? >> the threats prior to that tweet, and on some level it feels almost silly to talk about a tweet, but we can really see the impact that they have, because prior to that the threats were pretty general in nature. corrupt election officials in philadelphia are dmoing to get what's coming to them. what the second amendment is for for. you're walking into the lion's den. things like that. after the president tweeted at me by name, calling me out the way that he did, the threats became much more specific.
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much more graphic. and included not just me by name but included members of my family by name, their ages, our address, pictures of our home. just every bit of detail that you could imagine. that was what changed with that tweet. >> behind me are redacted threats that you received, that you provided to the committee. now, we redacted portions of the text to protect your family. mr. schmidt, i think i speak for all of my colleagues when i say we are deeply sorry for what you and your loved ones have been through, and i also want to thank you for your service to your country and for standing up for the rule of law. i want to thank both mr. pack and mr. schmidt for their service, their testimony, and for standing up for the rule of law. now i'd like to turn to another
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subject, the courts in our country provide a legitimate venue for campaigns to challenge what they view as irregular election practices. now, courts have the final say in how the law applies to the challenges. we have a renowned legal expert here to address the trump campaign's activities in court. mr. ginsberg, you spent your entire career representing republicans in election-related litigation. you served as the national council on republican presidential campaigns in 2000, in 2004, and in 2012. you played a key role in the 2000 florida recount that led to the supreme court's decision in bush v gore. you served as the co-chair at the presidential commission on election administration. i think it's fair to say you're
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the most prominent republican lawyer who has litigated in the election field. now, you've analyzed the trump campaign's litigation pretty carefully. what's the normal process for post election litigation? how is the trump campaign's different from the kinds of post election litigation you've been involved in and know about? >> in the normal course of things, any campaign on the night of the election and in the days after, we'll do a couple of different things. one is they'll analyze precinct results to look for abnormalities in the results. and they'll send people to those pres presicincts to ask more questio. they have poll workers and observers in the polling places. so campaigns will talk to those people if they saw any
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irregularities that could cause problems in the election. now, the trump campaign talked preelection about having 50,000 poll workers. presumably they did have eyes on the ground in all these places. and so in the normal course of things, a campaign will analyze the reports that come in. trump campaign had a couple of basic problems, however. number one, the 2020 election was not close. in 2000 that was 537 and close in this election, the most narrow margin was 10,000 and something in arizona, and you just don't make up those sorts of numbers in recounts. and when the claims of fraud and irregularities were made, you've heard very compelling testimony from mr. step yan and matt morgan and alex cannon about those claims and how they didn't
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believe them. so that puts the trump campaign on sort of a process of bringing cases without the actual evidence that you have to have in which the process is designed to bring out. >> so are you aware of any instance in which a court found the trump campaign's fraud claims to be credible? >> no. there was never that instance. in all the cases that were brought, and i've looked at the more than 60 that include more than 180 counts. and no, the simple fact is that the trump campaign did not make its case. >> the select committee has identified 62 post election lawsuits filed by the trump campaign and his allies between november 4th, 2020, and january 6th, 2021. those cases resulted in 61 losses and only a single victory which actually didn't affect the
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outcome for either candidate. despite those 61 losses, president trump and his allies claim that the courts refused to hear them out, and as a result, they never had their day in court. mr. ginsberg, what do you say about the claims that mr. trump wasn't given an opportunity to provide the evidence they had of voter fraud? did they, in fact, have their day in court? >> they did have their day in court. about half of those cases that you mentioned were dismissed at the procedural stage for a lack of standing, the proper people didn't bring the case, or there wasn't sufficient evidence and it got dismissed on a motion to dismiss. in the other there were discussions of the merits that were contained in the complaints. and in no instance did a court find that the charges of fraud were real. and it's also worth noting that
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even if the trump campaign complained that it did not have its day in court, there had been post election reviews and battle ground states that could have made a difference. to the michigan senate report during the hand recount in georgia and the address and in each one of the instances, they were produced by the trump campaign or -- >> thank you, as mr. ginsberg explained, there were no cases where the trump campaign was able to prove that there was widespread fraud or irregularities in the 2020 election. over and over judges appointed by democrats and republicans alike, directly rebutted this false narrative. they called out the trump campaign's lack of evidence for its claims and the judges did
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that even in cases where they could have simply thrown out the lawsuit without writing a word. >> you can see behind me a few excerpts from the decisions in the cases. the trump campaign's lack of evidence was criticized by jungs across the political spectrum. in pennsylvania, a trump appointed judge concluded, quote, charges require specific allegations and proof. we have neither here. another trump-oi pointed judge warned that if cases like these succeeded, quote, any disappointed loser in a presidential election able to hire a team of clever lawyers could flag claimed deviations from election results and cast doubt on election results. the list goes on and on. allegations are called, an amalgamation of theories,
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conjecture and speculation. in another strained legal arguments without merit. unsupported by evidence, derived from wholly unreliable sources. a fundamental and obvious misreading of the constitution. the rejection of president trump's litigation efforts was overwhelming. 22 federal judges appointed by republican presidents including ten appointed by president trump himself. and at least 24 elected or appointed republican state judges dismissed the president's claims. at least 11 lawyers have been referred for disciplinary proceedings due to bad faith and baseless efforts to undermine the outcome of the 2020 presidential election. rudy giuliani had his license to practice law suspended in new york and just this week, a newly filed complaint will potentially
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make his suspension from practicing law in d.c. permanent. and as we've just heard from perhaps the most preimminent republican election lawyer in recent history, the trump campaign's unprecedented effort to overturn its election laws in court was a deeply damaging abuse of the judicial process as stated by u.s. district court judge david carter. this was, quote, a coupe in search of a legal theory. thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> i want to thank our witnesses for joining us today. the members of the select committee may have additional questions for today's witnesses, and we ask that you respond expeditiously in writing to those questions. without objection, members will be permitted ten business days to submit statements for the
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record including opening remarks and additional questions for the witnesses. the second panel of witnesses is now dismissed. >> with it objection the chair recognizes the gentlewoman from california for a closing statement. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman. now that we understand the litigation efforts by president trump and his allies, i'd like to present additional actions taken by the trump campaign during this time. president trump continued to push the stolen election narrative even though he and his
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allies knew that their litigation efforts making the same claim had failed. that's worth pointing out that litigation generally does not continue past the safe harbor date of december 14th. but the fact that this litigation went on, well, that decision makes more sense when you consider the trump campaign's fund raising tactics. because if the litigation had stopped on december 14th, there would have been no fight to defend the election. and no clear path to continue to raise millions of dollars. mr. chairman, at this time i'd ask for unanimous consent to include in the record a video presentation describing how president trump used the lies he told to raise millions of dollars from the american people. these fundraising schemes were also part of the effort to disseminate the false claims of election fraud. >> without objection.
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>> amanda wick. i'm senior investigative council house committee. between election day and january 6th, the trump campaign sent millions of fundraising emails to trump supporters. sometimes as many as 25 a day. the emails claimed the, quote, left wing mob was undermining the election. implored supporters to, quote, step up to protect the integrity of the election and encouraged them to, quote, fight back. as the select committee has demonstrated, the trump campaign knew the votes of voter fraud were false. yet they continued to barrage small donors with emails encouraging them to -- the select committee discovered no such fund existed. >> i don't believe there is a fund called the election defense fund. >> the election defense fund was i think we called ate marketing tactic? >> yes. >> and tell us about these funds as marketing tactics.
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>> just topic matter where money could potentially go to be -- how money could be used potentially. >> the claims the election was stolen were so successful. president trump and his allies raised $250 million. nearly $100 million in the first week after the election. on november 9th, 2020, president trump created the save america pac. most of the money raised went to the newly created pac. the select committee discovered that the save america pac made millions of dollar of contributions to pro trump organizations. including $1 million to trump chief of staff mark meadows charitable foundation. $1 million to the america first policy institute. a conservative organization which employs several former trump administration officials. 204 $,857 to the trump hotel collection, and over $5 million to event strategies inc, the
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company that ran the rally. >> all of us here today do not want to see our election day stolen by a radical left democrat which is what they're doing. >> the evidence developed by the select committee highlights how the trump campaign adepressively pushed false claims to fundraise. telling supporters it would be used to fight voter fraud that did not exist. the emails continued through january 6th. even as president trump spoke. 30 minutes after the last email was sent, the capitol was breached. >> every american is entitled and encouraged to participate in our electoral plo sesz. political fundraising is part of that. small dollar donors use scarce
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disposable income to support candidates and causes of their choosing, to make their voices heard, and those donors deserve the truth about what those funds will be used for. throughout the committee's investigation, we found evidence that the trump campaign and its surrogates misled donors as to where their funds would go and what they would be used for. so not only was there the big lie. there was the big ripoff. donors deserve to know where their funds are really going. they deserve better than what president trump and his team did. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> without objection, the chair recognizes the gentlewoman from wyoming. miss cheney for a closing statement. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. chairman, i would like to thank all our witnesses today. and i'd also like to in particular, wish mr. steppian and his family all the best on
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the arrival of a new baby. today's hearing, mr. chairman, was very narrowly focussed. and in the coming days, you will see the committee move onto president trump's broader planning for january 6th. including his plan to corrupt the department of justice, and his detailed planning with lawyer john eastman to pressure the vice president, state legislatures, state officials, and others to overturn the election. let me leave you today with one clip to preview what you will see in one of our hearings to come. this is the testimony of white house lawyer erik her issueman. john eastman called mr. hershman the day after january 6th. here's how that conversation went. >> i said to him, are you out of your f-ing mind? i said i only want to hear who
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words coming out of your mouth from now on. orderly transition. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> at the conclusion of last week's hearing, we showed you a video explaining why they had come to washington on january 6th of rioters. it was because donald trump told h them to be here. today we heard about some of the lies donald trump embraced and amplified when it became clear he didn't have the numbers of votes to win the election. we heard about how officials at different levels of government explored claims of fraud and found in evidence. yet, the former president continued to repeat those false claims over and over again.
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today we'll end things where we did on thursday, back on january 6th. hearing words of individuals who wanted to stop the transfer of power. we know they were there because of donald trump. now we hear some of the things they believed. without objections, i enter into the record a video presentation. >> i know exactly what's going on right now. a fake election. think they're going to see us and -- it ain't happening today. >> you voted? >> yes, sir. >> how did it go? >> voted early. it went well except for can't really trust the software. dominion software. >> we voted, and right in the top right hand corner of the dominion voting machine we used, there was a wi-fi symbol with five bars. so that most definitely connects
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to the internet without a doubt. they stole it from us twice. we're not taking it anymore. we're standing up. we're here, and whatever happens, we're not letting down again. >> i'm from pennsylvania. it didn't work. we voted. >> trust the system. >> 200,000 people that weren't even registered voted. 430,000 voted disappears from president trump's tally, and you can't stand there and tell me that it worked. >> i don't want to say that what we're doing is right. but if the election is being stolen, what is it going to take? >> the chair requests those in the hearing room remain seated until the capitol police have escorted members from the room. without objection, the committee
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stands adjourned. >> we just heard the vice chair's closing statement. we certainly saw the video very, very powerful video of the rioters. and from these three witnesses who testified today detailing how trump's claims of election fraud were bogus, including one who was threatened for refusing to buy into that lie. perhaps the most powerful and damning testimony came from a witness who appeared on video. the former attorney general of the united states, bill barr. that was a really powerful video presentation that we saw the deposition from the former attorney general. >> absolutely, and remember, bill barr had carried a lot of water for this president as attorney general. he was the one that talked about
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the fbi during the 2016 election spying on the trump campaign. he was the one who appointed john durham as a special counsel to investigate. he was the one who according to the mueller team mischaracterized what was in the mueller report. but it was clear that by november of 2020, he was done with donald trump and donald trump's lines, and this was the bill barr show today. november 23rd, he's meeting in the oval office, and trump is talking about fraud, and as he's leaving, he talks to mark med goes, the chief of staff and jared kushner. he says how long is he going to carry this on. meadows says he's becoming more realistic, there's a limit to how far he'll take this, and jarod says we're working on this. on december 14th, he tries to put the lie to all the talk about the big steal, and says i've become demoralized, because it became clear to me that trump
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really believed this and perhaps was becoming detached from reality. this is a trump loyalist. the president's own attorney general basically say ig threw up my hands. i gave him the truth and he would not accept it. >> that's what was stunning today. not only barr, but all of these trump loyalists. these are loyalists. bill steppian's testimony. you get the sense of trump's campaign advisers saying what are we going to do? giuliani who they think is nuts wants to go in there and talk to the president? what are we going to do? we have to talk to rudy before he can get to the president. they deal with rudy. then you have barr calling the president's theories bs, idiotic, stupid, crazy, a disservice to the country. nonsense. and then you have this sense that all of them, when you take all of this testimony put together from deputy ag on
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down -- >> donahue. >> yes. you have a sense that they believe they were dealing with somebody who was completely detached from reality, and who would never admit whether he believed it or not, we don't know the answer. that he could never say i lost. and he didn't care what it took. so they piled on and they piled on, and they piled on, and it didn't matter until he could find the people like rudy giuliani and others, a few, who would, you know, who would play the conspiracy games into courts in which they lost 62 times. it's this kind of stunning picture of this going on behind closed doors in the white house. we always wonder what goes on behind closed doors in the white house? this is what went on behind closed doors in the white house. i can only wonder what these people were saying to each other at the time, because not one of them, not one of them came out
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and said you know, the president's wrong. >> whether he was detached from reality or not, the lies were attached to the bank accounts of many trump supporters. to me the line of the day that really honed in on what at least congressman lofgren was hoping to achieve was it wasn't just the big lie. it was also the great ripoff. talking about the timeline, knowing at what point the president of the united states was at least alerted that time and time again there could be no inference of truth to any of the fraudulent theories he was speaking about, and then knowing that the emails, millions would still go. 25 a day they spoke about this notion. it seemed as much as they were trying to prove the case about donald trump today in the court of electorate. they were also trying to perhaps alert those who still believe the big lie. remember it was an ongoing threat that look, he, in fact, lost the election. let me tell you all the way you were swindled. that was a very big part of this conversation. >> to me, two of the biggest
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pieces of testimony that show that donald trump knew he was lying, one was from barr. i mean, in addition to all that detail that chris described, barr said trump never had any interest in what the facts were. no matter what they were saying to him, it just didn't matter. and donahue, the acting attorney general said he wouldn't fight us when we told him, when we rebutted some stupid theory. he would just move to the next one. it was all instrumental. it was all designed to throw something out there. it didn't matter what the facts were. it didn't matter whether it was true. and you know, he did it from way before the election. they began today with the red ma rauj by talking about how everybody knew and they told donald trump that the republican election day votes would come in first and it would look good,
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and then the democrats early votes would come in and it wouldn't look so good. and he basically, and they said but you can't dump on mail-in-voting does because it hurts us. they have people who can get people out to cast mail-in-votes. >> kevin mccarthy -- don't dump on mail-in-votes. he didn't, because he was planning to claim flawed. it's like once told leslie stal wick. she said this three years ago, that donald trump once told her the reason why he demeans the press is because that way the press is already discredited if it reports something bad about him. he did the same thing with mail-in ballots and with the electoral process. >> i want to pick up on what you said, laura. it's really important.
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an awful lot of what's been done so far in these hearings is to talk to people who were already persuaded that trump has lied. but what i thought they skillfully did at the end of the hearing today was try to make an appeal to the trump supporters. and to say look, we're not the victim of these lies. you're the victim of these lies. financially, because of them, the idea of this official election defense fund, and, in fact, it wasn't a fund. $250 million, which even in washington is real money now, it goes into the fund. it doesn't go for election fraud litigation. it goes to the trump hotel collection. it goes to organize the january 6th rally. and then the very end is when they went to the people who were on the mall on january 6th. and they're saying on here, because trump persuaded me, my vote was stolen. what they're really saying, you, the trump supporters, are the
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doops here. you're the ones that got played for fools by trump and his bogus claims. >> so that point, here's the question that went unasked, but i think it was answered. the question is should this man be back in the oval office? ever. and i think you saw what went on inside the white house. how he would not believe his own people. how he lived this lie because he couldn't stand the notion of ever losing to joe biden as he used to tell people over and over again. and then the question you have to ask as you see the people out on the mall, who were dooped by donald trump, as you see his lawyers who cannot talk any sense into him whatsoever, the question they didn't say, because they don't want the hearing to be political, is would you put this person back in the oval office? >> bill barr would. >> bill barr -- that's right. that's right. that's right. well, that's right. and bill barr said he was
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detached from reality. right. right. >> and not legally. how much of a legal case against trump was unfolded during the course of this testimony? >> i think it was a really dynamic legal case. remember, talking about if the charge was something like defrauding the united states government or the electorate based on unlawful or improper purposes, you have to first prove there was an agreement. a meeting of the mind. you're doing to do this very thing. you're going to at least use deceptive practices in some way or fraudulent practices to promote a lie. you have to have an overt act. that could be any of the meetings, any of the tweets. any of the speeches. any moment you say i'm going to appeal to the american public based on this fraud. but the thing is it has to be for this unlawful or corrupt purpose. corrupt could be this criminal intent. the idea of look, i know it's wrong and i'm going to do it anyway. or it could be an improper purpose, meaning you know you don't have any state certifying in your favor. you have exhausted all your remedies and you want to remain in

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