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tv   Don Lemon Tonight  CNN  January 13, 2022 8:00pm-9:00pm PST

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a chilling charge. the doj filing seditious conspiracy charges against the leader of the far-right extremist group the oath keepers and ten others. what may be the final nail in the coffin for voting rights legislation tonight. >> i hope we can get this done. the honest to god answer is, i don't know whether we can get this done. the daughter of dr. martin luther king jr. joins me to talk about it just ahead. do three unpaid speeding tickets amount to a rap sheet? >> on the eve of his hearing, it has been made public that he has a rap sheet with a laundry list of citations. >> stereotyping much? that's a u.s. senator leveling those loaded charges against a black nominee for the federal
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bench. we'll talk about that just ahead. i want to get straight to cnn's senior legal affairs correspondent, paul reach, with the latest on the charges against the leader of the oath keepers and ten other people. >> the justice department today escalating its efforts to prosecute those responsible for january 6th, charging oath keepers leader stewart rhodes, along with ten others, with seditious conspiracy leading to the attack on the capitol. it's the first time prosecutors have used the sedition charge after bringing ever 700 cases related to the insurrection. prosecutors have long signaled they considered using the rarely applied section of federal law. rhodes is the most high-profile individual charged in the investigation so far. court documents filed today lay out a wide-ranging plot to storm the capitol and disrupt the certification of the 2020 election. two days after election day, rhodes allegedly urged his
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followers to refuse to accept the election results, writing in a signal message, we aren't getting through this without a civil war. according to federal prosecutors, on his way to d.c. on january 3rd, rhodes allegedly bought an ar platform rifle and other firearms equipment, including sights, mounts, triggers, slings, and other firearms attachments in texas. the next day he allegedly bought more firearms equipment in mississippi. rode is, a former army paratrooper who went on to earn a law degree from yale did not enter the capitol on january 6th but video captures oath keepers wearing military gear forcing their way into the building in a military stack formation. in this clip you can see a group of oath keepers very close to the capitol doors breaching the building. and here, members inside the capitol rotunda, including jessica watkins, who is among those charged today with seditious conspiracy. >> we're in the [ bleep ]
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capitol! >> the new indictment reveals the group allegedly had quick reaction forces from three states -- arizona, north carolina, and florida -- to rush into d.c. if needed. according to court documents, oath keeper thomas caldwell, arrested in january, claimed he took a reconnaissance trip to d.c. prior to the insurrection. and prosecutors say rhodes was planning for violence well beyond january 6th, allegedly referring to the capitol attack as "nothing compared to what is coming." in the weeks after the attack on the capitol, he allegedly spent more than $17,000 on weapons, equipment, and ammunition. then around inauguration day, rhodes told his associates, local organized militias to oppose the biden administration. another member allegedly said, after this, if nothing happens, it's war, civil war 2.0. rhodes was arrested at his home in texas today. he is expected to make his
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initial appearance in federal court in plano tomorrow. if convicted, seditious conspiracy carries a maximum sentence of 20 years. don? >> paula, thank you so much. appreciate it. joining me, former fbi deputy director andrew mccabe, cnn law enforcement analyst. this is scary stuff. i mean, when you think about everything that paula just went through, the litany of things that he was carrying and all of that, this indictment lays out a full-scale, preplanned, paramilitary operation to stop the electoral process. these people were armed for war. what was their goal? >> well, don, it's -- yeah, you're right, it's absolutely chilling. and look, let's remember the indictment is an allegation. the government still has to prove this in a court of law. but the detail that's laid out in this massive document, the specific communications between
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coconspirators, the expenditures of massing to massing arms and thousands of rounds of ammunition, both before january 6th, then also after january 6th, presumably planning for some sort of action that would come next that's not detailed in the indictment. it is a wide ranging conspiracy that starts immediately after the election, goes through january 6th, and after, and talks about committing just heinous acts of violence to essentially overthrow our democracy, basically what it comes down to. >> this is sarcasm, but where are the charges for, you know, blm and antifa and where are the charges for blm and antifa and the
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democrats? >> they only do it when they have evidence it happened. that's laid out in great detail here. so stewart rhodes, the alleged leader of this group, he disabuses that himself. he says are these real patriots or people posing as patriots trying to start up trouble? he says quite clearly, no, these are real patriots, they're pissed off and getting the job done, something to that effect. >> it's a very interesting idea of what patriotism is. it's actually a warped idea of what patriotism is. is the next step in this investigation likely happening now to see if there was any coordination between these seditious conspirators or others with any trump white house officials or cronies or the so-called war room? >> there's no question. what d.o.j. will do in a case like this is try to continue going up the chain of command.
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now, i am confident they have several cooperators already. they wouldn't have this indictment without insiders and the way we know that is these encrypted communication channels like signal and proton e-mail, you can't get those records with a subpoena. the only way the government would have these actual quotes is if they had access to a person with a device in those conversations that means somebody is cooperating providing that information. now that you have these charges, the pressure is on them to cooperate on them as well. so we'll see who comes in and knocks on the government's door next and that's what could take you up the chain in another link. >> there's another oathkeeper charged today, thomas caldwell. this is him on january 6th. >> every single person in there is a traitor!
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every single one! >> the indictment includes a message -- "i can't believe i just thought of this, how many people in the militia or not who are still supportive of our efforts to save the republic have a boat on a trailer that could handle a potomac crossing if we had somebody standing by the dock ramp, we could have our quick response team with the heavy weapons standing by, quickly load them and ferry them across the river to our waiting arles, if it all went to shit, our guy loads our weps and blue ridge militia weps and ferris them across." wow. as bad as january 6th was, it could have been worse. >> a lot worse. some of this is so ridiculous. >> is this why people are
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pretending it didn't happen because they don't want people to find out things like this? sorry to interrupt. >> i have to believe that people are pretending because to not pretend, to embrace the fact and what actually happened is frightening. it's a realization that many don't want to have to come out with, that some of the people who support them and their causes were behind this. mr. caldwell has a very confused understanding of what a traitor is. in this scenario, he's the traitor. he's smuggling arm in the capitol. it reads like a cheap dime store novel but then you see the details that the massive cash of weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition right outside the capitol prepared to be brought in in case they're needed for
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some thing, it's chilling. and that happened. >> thank you, i appreciate it. >> now to president biden's growing list of setbacks. here to discuss is gergen and mark mackinnon, he's former adviser have george w. bush and executive producer of "the circus." today the supreme court ended up blocking the vaccine requirement for large businesses, getting nowhere on voting rights, build back better is stalled. clearly a one-vote majority is
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tough but does it feel like the white house is under siege right now? as i said during the break, the president, this guy can't get a break. >> i'm sure, i wasn't who that was directed to. >> that was for you, david gergen. >> okay, i'm here. the striking thing is that he got off to such a good start as president. the first 100 days he was successful, he won the heart of americans who wanted to see him succeed. but since half a year ago, the wheels have been coming off the wagon. we violated our own legal codes. he's got two major defeats on the legislation that got pumped up by the white house and then they lost, which is a real loss. you don't pump us up for something you're going to lose. and you've got natural disasters. the country's exhausted, the country's tired of all of this.
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they don't really particularly like either side. and we're krifting away. so we're less united than we were six months ago. and this serious talk about a potential civil war i don't think should be ignored. i don't think we're there yet, i don't belong to that club but i'm getting a little closer. >> what do you think about that, mark? >> i'm a hopeful soul but it's getting awful dark. and john mccain says it's always darkest before it goes completely black. >> i think he's right on that one. >> i think there are two things -- listen, it can't get much worse obviously. i really think that the president has hit bottom and there are two significant things i think in the near future or at least over the course of the next year before the election, a couple things are going to
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happen. one is i do think and i think most health experts will say that the virus is going to diminish. we've burned through the dead wood in the forest with the omicron virus and we're finally going to get past this, i believe, and experts who know a lot more about this than i do think that. once that happens, there's a lot of economic factors in place that are very good. a lot of -- we're fighting inflation of course but there's incredibly strong job numbers that are only going to get stronger as omicron recedes and so there are some things to look forward to. i don't think that's going to help so much in the short term but over the long haul those are a couple of things that biden can look forward to. >> you can't see but i had my fingers crossed. we're in our third winter now of -- winter of 2020, 2021, now we're going to 2022 wearing
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masks and social distancing and all of those things. we'll see. i hope you're right, mark. president biden invited senators manchin and sinema to the white house after meeting with the democratic senators on the hill today. nothing has changed, though. he still doesn't have the votes. why did he go through this whole exercise? does it make him look weak? that's to mark. >> part of the problem with the voting rights, don, is that biden hasn't really showed a lot of passion for it over the past year. he had other priorities that he made clear. >> and you and i have talked about that. >> yeah, we have. and activists on the democratic side have believed that biden has not put his weight behind it. i think the speech was late and it was insufficient and it was super partisan. when you draw the line in the sand and say you're either with us or you're a racist, you're certainly not going to -- >> or you're on the side of the
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racist he said. >> there wasn't going to be any. i don't know if that's helpful. so the only hope you had was sinema or manchin and he's still trying to pick that lock. >> it's like he's using the billy pulpit, immediapresident s but he's fundamentally up able to be the bully. what happens now? >> i think he's got a hard road ahead. his supporters are going to have to be patient. this is going to be a long, hard road back. this is not judgment on his competence and leadership by the country. his numbers are down and they're down around 40% or so american approval. it's really hard to turn that around. i do think one of the things that he needs do is make it clearer on these things what the reality is, how hard it is, not to get expectations up as they were with the social bill and climate bill, you had
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expectations describe high. going down on the civil rights bill it was a nice gesture but it raised expectations and then he comes off weak. you doesn't want to get into posture of overpromising and underdelivering. that's a road to the oblivion. he's got to get back out of that. a lot of the disputes that are going on are within the democratic party. mark can speak to this. he's got to get away from going after his own party and sharpen where the republicans are blocking us on everything we need to do for this country and make that the case. get some republicans down there to talk up the white house. why does he just have to have democrats to continue the conversations? >> to be continued. next we'll talk to the drawer of martin luther king jr. she said voting rights should be
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letsgetchecked. care can be this good. president biden admitting today he may not be able to get voting rights across the finish line. senate republicans are digging in their heels while manchin and sinema aren't willing to carve out the filibuster. >> like every other major civil rights bill that came along, if we missed the first time, we could come back and try it the second time. i don't know that we can get it done but i know one thing, as long as i have a breath in me, as long as i'm in the white house, as long as i'm engaged at all, i'm going to be fighting to change the way the way these legislatures are moving. the daughter of dr. martin
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luther king jr. manchin and sinema say they're against changing the filibusters roles. even biden today sounding defeated. what's your response to what happened? >> well, you know, it's unfortunate that we can't get voting rights legislation passed in the senate of the united states when we've been able to do it in the past. and so, you know, the reality is this should have been a bipartisan effort. and, you know, i know it going to happen. i know it's going to happen. when it's going to happen is the question and how it's going to happen is the other question. there's just, you know, it's real. if it doesn't happen, we just have to keep working. we got to keep working not just
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on the democratic side but on the republican side. >> well, let's talk about that because you say voting rights it should be bipartisan goal, as you said. >> should be the goal. >> but the gop is in lock step over refusing to work with democrats and actively working to restrict the vote on the state level. is there any world where there is a bipartisan solution, you believe? >> you know, i know that when my father and them faced these kind of situations, they used the twin approaches of direct action and negotiation. and we have to continue in that vein. when we talk about that moral arc being bent towards justice, we have to be that force. so you never know when the heart changes. if we just buy into the notion they don't support it, let's be done with the republicans, we
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won't get there. i think we still have to continue negotiation and corral more people around this issue and continue to even win over people who are considered republican voters. because this is not a republican or a democratic issue. this is an issue of our democracy. >> it's an american issue. >> yes, it's an american issue. but democracy. it's going to affect the rest of the world. as go america in this regard goes the rest of democracy. >> but you talked about your dad. i mean, that was 50 -- more than 50 years ago and here we are virtually, you know, in a similar place. not the exact same place but a similar place. >> right. but we have to be very thoughtful and critical about why we're in a similar place. some of it is that you have evil forces, not people, you have people who are using evil means to try to continue to resist progress and change.
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but you also have had times and seasons in this country where we've been indifferent, we've been apathetic and have not been diligent and determined. my father said the tragic of human still and i will say today that the children of darkness are often more zealous and determined than the children of light. we have to examine where have we dropped the ball as well? was there a period of time where we didn't corral and make sure that there had always been a force of people engaged on these issues, aware of these issues? you know, i think if we critique it, we will see we did drop some balls. so that's why we are here today, unfortunately. but there is -- i call it a generation, an accountability generation. the younger generation has continued to keep us on our tippy toes and they're not liking where you can go right
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down and push it under the rug. they're continuing to apply the pressure. that's why i said i think it going to -- and i'm not speaking of that just younger in age but also the generation of this time that has connected less with the young are generation and say we're not longer going to be apathetic and indifferent. >> monday is martin luther king jr. day but your family is calling for no celebration that day without the passage of voter legislation. so how does your family want to mark his birthday this year? >> well, martin and andrea called for the no celebration. i come to say that we must commemorate this day, which they are actually doing by focusing more attention on the things that are critical to our nation and our democracy, which is voting rights. and so it's not that we're not to celebrate but we cannot -- what do we have to celebrate? we need to really be focusing
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effort on the king holiday to honor and commemorate him in this way, to education, to advocate and to activate. those are the three things that must happen during the king holiday. >> berneice king, it's always a pleasure to hear your wisdom and we're so happy to have you here. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> from voting rights to the pandemic, americans are more divided than ever. seems like it's only getting worse. is there a way to fix it? john meacham and bishop michael curry, both are here to talk about it. they are next. the sleep number 360 smart bed is on sale now. only from sleep number.
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voting rights going nowhere in the senate. deep distrust on covid still rampant two years in the pandemic, from the highest levels of government, americans can't seem to agree on basic truths. joining us is john meacham and bishop curry. they spoke on the vanderbilt property about how religion and politics intersect in the u.s. and now we're going to have that discussion. so good to see both of you. thank you for joining. john, america is is so divided. there's a lot of anger out there. our political party seems to be -- one political party seems to be abandoning democracy. what's happened to the sense of cohesiveness americans have felt as a country and what is all this division do to the country? >> the forces that are buffeting
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us now are presenerennial. they ebb and flow. the task of a pure democracy is to make those forces ebb more than they flow. and democracy is a human enterprise and as human beings and i don't want to drag the bishop into this but we're fallen, frail and fallible. and i think that every day is a struggle between our better angels and our worst instincts. if i get it right 51% of the time, that's a heck of a good day and i don't have many of those. and the country is -- and i want some ambabe absolution. if you're feeling forgiving, your grace. >> yes. >> we're all accountable but
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it's also kind of thrilling because it means that we can make a difference. and i think we have to instill -- i'm not going to say recover, i'm going to say i think we have to instill and as reverend king just said, activate the sense that we have to see each other as neighbors and not as adversaries and think about how we want the future to think about us. >> you said something that was -- i wanted you to be hopeful. did you say the forces are perennial? you don't think this is an o outlier in our history? >> no, this is real. the subversion of democracy, the attempt to take elections by all authoritative forces are full and free and fair, that is putting the will to power at the center are our public enterprise. and the whole point of the
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constitution, however imperfect it may be, is -- was to check our appetites. because they figured that if we tried to do things, most of the them we could do them wrong, we would rtry to do wrong things. i don't want to us act as though there's going to be a happily ever after. there was never a once upon a time in american history. there's never going to be a happily after. this is a day-to-day, year-to-year, decade-to-decade struggle. >> bishop, there's not even a shared understanding of truth or shared set of values anymore. we see politicians gas lighting the public, people willing to put themselves and others in danger because they won't get a vaccine or wear a mask and they're going to go after
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lawmakers and hang the president. is america facing a moral crisis? >> yes. much of our history has been a consistent facing of a moral crisis and this particular moment -- let there be no doubt, this is a dark moment. this very well may be as dr. king said a long time ago, this may be midnight in the social order. it is the most dangerous i'm because it is darkest and it is the time of potential hope because light has the potential of dawning. we are at midnight. we really are. there's no question about that. and yet the result of that will be determined by our actions and our willingness, i would claim, to affirm the high ideals and principles that are a part of who we are. and i believe -- i'm not an optimist. i believe that the vast majority of americans truly believe in the highest ideals. there is more good among us.
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there are more ideals that we share among us, but unfortunately, and i hate to use the phrase, there is a silent majority that is too silent, that is too quiet. there is a decent majority that is too quiet and too silent and we must activate that silent majority, the better angels of our nature. and i think the more we do that, then we have the capacity and the potential to turn midnight not into our darkest hour but maybe into, i pray, our finest hour. >> how do you do that? because you then have -- listen, i think historically the right, the religious right, they were the party of morals and religion and god and so forth, moral values, right. and they believe that they're acting upon that even though they're doing the exact opposite. so there's some sort of confusion. i'm not sure what it is, some sort of co-opting, i have no
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idea what's going on. are religious leaders in your opinion doing enough to cut through the noise, call out the ideas of the behaviors that is destructive or dangerous? >> i think on the one hand many of us as religious leaders are not doing enough, but on the other hand we're not getting as much air time either. and sometimes we have not been as smart activating and getting air time. one of the things we have to do i think as religious folk is reclaim the devalues and ideas that are at the roots of many of our religious traditions. i speak as a christian and i can tell you as a christian that when you read the four gospels, matthew, martin, luke and john, when you read the four gospels and look at the life and teachings, you don't find hate, bigotry, you fight one person from one culture helping another
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out because they're a child of god. >> can i ask you something? >> yeah. >> do you think that is too esoteric? perhaps they should be in the pulpit saying -- look, i'm not obviously a preacher. i like the preach the gospel of the news. perhaps they should be saying if you believe in god and the tenets of the bible and christianity, that doesn't mean up should be taking part in an insurrection. >> yes. >> that doesn't mean you should be listening to someone who is lying about a stolen election. thou shalt not lie. >> don, you got to apply the parables, apply the scriptures, not in an partisan way but that
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seeks to elevate us morally. talk about the good samaritan and then talk about law enforcement. we want our police officers to be good samaritans. that's their job. you see what i'm saying? let take the religious tradition and apply it but let's reclaim the real essence of it. i believe we must reclaim the essence of the ideas of our tradition as americans. this country has not always lived up to its ideals, but cannon professor john meacham will tell us in the declaration of independence, in the getty'sburg address, in king's, "i have a dream" and on and on and on, we have ideals that most of us will share. we learned i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god, i divisionible with liberty and justice for all.
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>> for all. >> you helped to draft the speech the president game on the anniversary of january 6th where he really took the gloves off, going after trump, spreading the big lie, but some worried it was too tough, that it was going to cause more polarization. is that part of the price of telling the truth in 2022, john? >> well, the president speaks for the president. so to answer your question for me, yes. in greek, truth means unconcealed. it means it is something that you see that is real. and i don't think any of us are helping ourselves by pretending that this is an ordinary hour of crisis. this is not bob dole and george mitchum squaring off over a continuing resolution in 1986. >> right, right, right. >> it's just not.
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i wish to thell it was -- sorry bishop. oops. i wish it were but i think this is a stress test. pick your metaphor. it's a crisis of citizenship, of citizenship. we have to decide, are we going to put the will to power ahead of everything else? the american covenant is fractured. and, god, i hate having to say that. but a covenant is, in fact, this notion that i'm going to help you in the morning -- not because i'm a good byut becausei might need to you help me in the afternoon. >> thank you both. i'm just going to let the church say amen. >> amen. >> can i get an amen, john? >> always. amen. >> episcopalians don't do it
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with quite as much passion. >> i noticed that. i'm a southern baptist. we say amen! >> if you want to hear more from these two gentlemen, you can find their conversations online at we'll be right back. crepe corrector lotion... only from gold bond. have you checked singlecare? i think you can get a cheaper price on this. cheaper meds with singlecare. stop! i should spread the word. but how? i wanna be remembered for the savings, with singlecare. you walk into the pharmacy, with great insurance. but then, (screams) singlecare beats the price of your copay. singlecare the musical. are people ready? (sings dramatically) oh, i need to get to work. telling people to check the singlecare price.
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>> on the eve of his hearing, it has been made public that he has a rap sheet with a laundry list of citations, including multiple failures to appear in court. in tennessee we expect our judges to respect the law, not disregard it. if mr. mathis thought he was above the law before, imagine how he'll conduct himself if he's confirmed as a federal judge. >> let's bring in cnn political -- sorry. bakari, let's get your book in, the author of "who are your peo people." i mean, that was quite the performance. i don't know what you would call it because andre mathis forgetting to pay three speeding tickets more than a decade ago. one was five miles per hour over the speed limit. what is happening here? >> what do you expect exactly? i mean, this is who we have
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known senator blackburn to be. this is like performative racism and you utilize it like a political currency and you get up there and you'll see it from ted cruz and tom cotton every now and then. it's an art form that some have perfected. listen, they don't want to see my driving record if that's the case. >> you're an attorney. you're an officer of the court now. >> i'm doing better. i've been clean now. when she said rap sheet, i thought it meant -- oh, man, i didn't know he was so reckless and such a criminal, listening to tupac going five miles over the speed limit. and unfortunately he had to be embarrassed
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>> i highly regret that i'm in this situation. i feel like i've embarrassed my family. i truly regret that. while i deserve this, they don't. >> why is he apologizing, though in. >> i don't -- i think that he didn't have a choice. i feel bad that senator black bil blackburn attempted to break this man like that. it is inexcusable, but it's not surprising. >> it shows that he has humility. it shows that he can take it and that he's classy. >> it shows that he's better than she is. >> sorry our segment was short tonight, but thank you so much. congratulations on the book. i'll see you soon. >> thank you, brother. >> all right. don't have a rap sheet now. take care o. investing strategies
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