tv This Is Life With Lisa Ling CNN October 31, 2021 7:00pm-8:00pm PDT
very difficult path for everyone else. >> you can't divorce yourself from the media. >> princess diana frolicking with dodi al fayed. >> the clock was ticking out and she was about to run out of time. xxxx . there is no denying that america is changing. and that is not sitting well with a lot of folks. guns and ammo are flying off the shelves and armed groups that call themselves militias are readying for a fight. >> stop the steal! >> the west is the best! >> just bring it to the capitol. >> the white men you talk about look backwards to an american dream that was very real for them and then we have the other
half that america left behind. >> passions are boiling over. >> get the -- out of our town. >> we the people are in charge. >> no you're not. >> who are these militias? what do they represent? are they our last line of defense? >> who's here for freedom? >> or the front line of terror? should we be afraid of militias? >> absolutely not. the tyrants need to be frightened of the militia. >> are these groups protecting the american way of life? >> we know what we're here for. >> what are you here for? >> security. >> o are a direct threat to it? are you an advocate for literally overthrowing the government sf. >> oh, yes, a hundred percent. >> our founding fathers wrote the second amendment to protect our country. why does it feel like it is being used to tear it apart?
when we were kids we were taught about america's fight for independence and the minutemen who helped win the war. they were america's first militia, an army of citizen soldiers who trained once a month and were able to mobilize at a moment's notice to grab their guns and protect their communities. today you'll see symbols and images from that period attached to many right wing paramilitary groups also referred to as militias. they see themselves as the modern day equivalent of the minute men. but how close are they? i first encountered one of these groups back in november of 2016
as president obama was ending his second term. i headed west to spend a weekend with the southern arizona militia, a right leaning group whose members are focused on securing our southern border. they're led by a man who calls himself silver back. would you consider yourself an extremist? >> in a good way yes. >> in what way would you consider yourself an extremist? >> the strict belief in the constitution. >> fire! >> we watched silver back and his men train. >> there you go. >> we shot some guns. >> you hit it. >> and we talked about the future. do you think the government's concerned about groups like yours is justifiable, a valid concern? >> the only reason they should have that concern is if they plan on doing something bad to the people. there is no other reason to be concerned about it, because at this point, to my knowledge, there is not a bunch of militia groups banding together and taking over the white house.
>> while it is five years later, and unbelievably we've landed in that very scenario except it wasn't the white house that was breached. it was the united states capitol on january 6th, 2021, by a mob that included militia members who charged the recent presidential election was a fraud. today more than 60 members of private militia groups have been arrested and charged with crimes related to the insurrection. >> so the last time i saw silver back, donald trump had just become president, and so much has happened since then. in fact, militias and patriot movements have become part of headline news. >> silver back and his militia weren't involved in the d.c. riot but i imagine it's had an impact on them. >> hey, silver back.
>> hi, lisa. >> it's been a while. >> it has been. about five years i guess. >> yeah, yeah. >> you ready to go? camp is this way. >> let's go. >> all right. >> this time around, getting in touch with silver back wasn't all that easy. first of all, you haven't returned any of my messages on facebook. >> that's because i'm banned off facebook. >> you're banned on facebook. >> yeah. as far as i know for life. >> do you know a lot of people who have been kicked off of big social media platforms? >> many. and not just facebook. instagram, youtube. twitter. >> if you don't mind me asking were you threatening violence of any kind? >> no. >> facebook would not confirm a reason for taking down silver back's pages, but since january, 2021, they did confirm removing over 25,000 profiles connected to militarized social movements. do you think because you had the
word militia in, on your public page that could have had something to do with it? >> i could almost guarantee it. no doubt in my mind. >> has that made you want to rethink your role in a militia? >> not at all. no, not at all. what we do is more important than any facebook page. >> in this abandoned ranch silver back and his men meet twice a month to patrol the desert hoping their presence will deter narcotics smugglers originating in mexico. >> honestly if we spend a week out here straight in the grueling heat and stop one drug mule from making his drop, and that means that some 14-year-old in phoenix doesn't overdose tomorrow, as far as i'm concerned, job well done. all right. so this is an area that we hit a
week ago. a lot of that stuff -- >> oh, wow. >> -- still here. and it looks like maybe there's new stuff over here as well. >> deoderant, shoes. what is this stuff? >> they put this over their regular shoe to help disguise their foot prints out in the desert. >> so how long has this camera been out here? >> about a week, week and a half. this is a pretty heavy trafficked area. i expect something is going to be on it. >> silver back's cameras did pick up images of migrants who might be crossing the border illegally but without the authority to conduct searches or make arrests, they'll just pass their findings on to customs and border protection and work on readiness training. but readiness for what? while silver back's group is careful to operate within the bounds of the law, the border patrol has stated they don't condone their activity and don't
want citizens taking security matters into their own hands. since january 6th the government has been showing increasing concern that groups like the southern arizona militia could serve as a breeding ground for domestic terrorism. what do you think of those guys who took part in storming the capitol? there certainly were people who professed to be part militia members. >> i don't think much of them. it's something that happened and i think -- i actually think it got blown way out of proportion. >> under what circumstances would you see yourself ever having to rise up and bear arms against the government? >> if they struck first i suppose. i mean, we don't come out here because we're going to make some assault on a government agency, you know? i mean, is it the total banning of firearms? is it the banning of a certain type of speech?
i don't know. but i think everybody has a point to which they would go, that's enough. >> are people stocking up as far as you know? >> they been doing that for a long time. ammo prices went up over a year ago. shelves have been empty over a year. it's been -- covid, lockdowns, riots, it's been those sort of things and now you add biden into it, it's just -- i don't know that it is going to get worse. i don't know that it can get worse. the shelves are already empty. >> would you ever relinquish your weapons? >> not a chance. no. no. >> even if you had to. even if it were the law? >> when guns become outlawed i'll become an outlaw. this country was founded on telling a tyrannical government to stick it. it is no different. it is just 200 years later.
>> are we really in the same position? i want to understand how those events of 200 years ago are driving our current history so i've come to the banks of the river rezin in michigan where america once battled british forces to meet with professor woody houlton an expert on colonial america. what was the militia? >> it was the law. every free white male had to be in it. you were required to own a musket and meet once a month on a saturday with the other militiamen from your district. they were similar to a regular army in that they're supposed to be trained and ready. >> our early militia was mostly focused on skirmishes with native americans and putting down slave rebellions but in 1776 colonists declared independence from british tyranny. washington created an army, and the militia joined the fight. >> it is not an exaggeration to say that militiamen played a really important role in winning
the revolutionary war and getting rid of the british. >> after winning independence the founding fathers drafted the constitution and a bill of rights, including the second amendment, which reads, a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. today these have become some of the most hotly contested words in american history. what does the second amendment really intend to say sn? >> the second amendment says now that we have a popularly chosen government, we need to protect that government and the best way to protect that government is with a militia. the point of the militia was not to overthrow the government or even to act as a check on the government. the point of the militia is to defend the government. >> that is a far cry from where
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unconventional thinking means we see things differently, so you can focus on what matters most. that's how we've become the leader in 5g and a partner who delivers exceptional customer support, and 5g included in every plan, so you get it all. in the earliest days of our country america's founding fathers believed a citizens militia could handle most of our military needs, but after hundreds of years of wars and conflicts we now maintain the most powerful professional armed forces in the world.
but we never disbanded our official militia. since 1903 it has been organized as part of the u.s. army and can be called up by state governors and the president in times of crisis. it's a militia that has evolved from minutemen animus kets to pilots and supersonic fighter jets and has a name you probably know, the united states national guard. >> we're your neighbors, your school teachers. we come from all walks of life because we're motivated by patriotism and the desire to serve the country. >> i've come to arlington, virginia to talk to the guard's second in command, lieutenant general mark sassville. what are the different kinds of militias? >> the first category which is what we are is federally recognized and their primary job is to fight the nation's wars. the second category is the state militias and they support the states, fighting fires, floods,
and clearly covid now. if you talk about militias there is this other category of private militias that are private organizations that have nothing to do with the first two categories. >> it's those private organizations that have been keeping lawmakers up at night. paramilitary groups that often refer to themselves as militia but exist in a legal gray zone. where individuals have the right to bear arms but as groups they don't have the legal standing to drill or conduct law enforcement. on january 6, 2021, members of some of those groups crossed a red line. >> all of us here today do not want to see our election victory stolen by a bold and radical left democrats. >> in an attempt to overthrow the presidential election hundreds of protesters overpowered police and stormed the u.s. capitol building. >> we aren't putting up with this rule. if we don't come back here and start a revolution and take all of these traitors out which is
what should be done, then we will. >> in the days after the insurrection the fbi found plenty of clues that some of the rioters were members of private militias. to regain control of the capitol area the government responded with a massive activation of the national guard. >> the pentagon has authorized up to 25,000 national guard to be on guard in washington for the inauguration. that means more u.s. troops in our nation's capital than in afghanistan, iraq, and syria combined. >> reporter: today there is a foreboding feeling in the air in washington, d.c. >> this is something that i have seen overseas in conflict zones. these federal buildings that are fenced in with razor wire on top. it's surreal to see the perimeter of the united states capitol this way. as someone who has been in the
national guard for a very long time, did you ever think that the guard would be engaged in this kind of mission safeguarding the capitol and defending it again even americans? >> we always prepare for the worst and hope for the best. i can't say that i or anybody really saw this event happening. it is the first time i'm aware of that all 54, all 50 states, three territories, and the district of columbia, have all participated in one event. it just shows you how important an event that was for the entire nation to put that right and to get back on a healing path. >> but how did we get to this point? why did these armed extremists feel so betrayed by the government? mark has spent the last 30 years tracing movements of far right militias. >> once upon a time the colonists saw the government after the british were kicked out as their friend. as history progressed, though,
the government became bigger and it came to be seen more and more as an enemy. >> over the course of the next 200 years the government would abolish slavery and in modern times promote policies for racial equality that inflamed elements on the far right. then tech jobs and globalization decimated blue collar manufacturing jobs and for white men without a college degree average wages have been dropping for the past four decades. the majority of militia members in the united states are white men. who seem to have a lot of grievances. do you think the grievances are valid? >> whole most people in the militia movement don't explicitly talk about it behind it all is the idea that whites in this country are going to lose their majority. today they are about 62%. in the next 25 years they'll be simply one more minority in a genuinely multi cultural country. so you would hear things like i live in a country i don't feel
is my own anymore. >> increasingly, over the last 30 years, radicalized groups came to believe the government was trying to limit second amendment rights through gun control. tensions boiled over in 1992 when federal authorities came to arrest a white supremacist named randy weaver on a mountain top in ruby ridge, idaho. >> weaver had illegally sold a sawed off shotgun. kind of a minor weapons charge but it escalated into a huge confrontation in which his cabin was surrounded by federal forces. >> after an 11-day siege one federal agent and weaver's 14-year-old son were killed in a shoot out. weaver's unarmed wife was shot and killed by an fbi sniper. >> they're coming after us. >> just six months later another tragedy unfolded that would galvanize a modern militia movement. >> when justice is taken out of the equation revenge,
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today." >> i got a frantic call from my editor in washington saying go to waco immediately. >> what was happening there? >> there was a group of religious cultists and their leader david koresh telling the followers that the government is coming for us any day now and we will have to fight when that happens. >> now, mr. koresh, your group has been described and i don't know if it's accurate, as heavily armed. >> yeah we're heavily armed all right. >> after the initial gun fight and a week-long stand-off the fbi launched a raid that would end in the death of 75 branch davidians including 25 children. >> now we have a very large scale fire breaking out on what must be the south side. >> the claim from some of the davidians and from conspiracy theorists all over is that the fbi proceeded to murder the people inside. >> a justice department investigation would later conclude that davidians themselves had set fires and shot one another and some of the children when the siege began.
that's not what people remembered. >> this was an absolutely massive news story. for 51 days every major cable channel prominently featured a story about what happened that day. literally tens of millions of americans came to believe that the government carried out an intentional mass murder in waco. and this is what the government will do to you if you have un-orthodox beliefs and particularly if you are interested in and traffic in guns. this became a single most important event propelling the birth of the militia movement. >> i believe there is a tyranny and corruption in all levels of government from the local government all the way to the top. >> this is norm olson a retired air force master sergeant who formed a group called the michigan militia the same year as the waco siege. >> over the course of the rest of that year, we saw an enormous number of these groups pop up to
the point where at the end of 1994 there were literally militias in all 50 states. >> that growth brought scrutiny by the federal government and in 1 1995 norm was called to testify before the u.s. senate where he was anything but apologetic. >> the increasing amount of federal encroachment into our lives indicates the need of parental correction in short the federal government needs a good spanking to make it behave. >> 25 years later norm now lives in alaska. though he is no longer part of any specific militia he is widely revered as the father of the modern movement. i know it's been a long time since you were in the militia in michigan but what compelled you to start it to begin with? >> back in 1994 and 1993 we caught a glimpse of what we are facing today. we saw the beginnings of racial
strife. we saw the beginnings of government corruption. and that hasn't ended. >> should we be afraid of militias, norm? >> oh, absolutely not. no. the tyrants, the tyrants need to be frightened of the militia. if anybody fails to be reminded sufficiently enough all they have to do is pick up a history book and you'll find out that there are times when we have to stand up and defend ourselves. the day may come -- i don't know for sure -- but the day may come we have to do it again. >> so now that donald trump is no longer president, what do you think is happening with the militia movement? >> we're dug in. we're dug in and waiting. there is no more ammo on the shelves. all the guns and the ammo have been bought up. people are frightened. but the militia, we're not
frightened. we are not going to go out and attack or hurt anybody. but any threat to our liberty and freedom has to be met with i think decisive action. >> but what constitutes a threat to liberty? and what is an appropriate response? for one militia group opposed to covid lockdowns the answer was simple. detonate a bridge and kidnap the governor of michigan. to 8hr, transfer resistant new super stay ink crayon brooklyn blush only from maybelline new york ♪ things you start when you're 45. coaching. new workouts. and screening for colon cancer. yep. the american cancer society recommends screening starting at age 45, instead of 50, since colon cancer is increasing in younger adults. i'm cologuard®. i'm convenient and find 92% of colon cancers... ...even in early stages.
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we are on the outskirts of detroit and it is an entirely different kind of environment. in a place this serene it is hard to picture guys dressed up in fatigues and training with assault rifles but rural michigan has been the epicenter of antigovernment militia activity for the past three decades. this past year as local legislators were voting to extend covid restrictions a mob that included armed militia members showed up at michigan's capitol. >> we won't be bullied or brow beaten or intimidated and we're not going away. >> reporter: while pandemonium broke out in the lobby a group
toting semiautomatic weapons was watching which under michigan law is legal. >> people need to wake the hell up. this isn't about a -- virus. we're being sheep. get the -- off your ass. >> this is william null a member of a new militia group that emerged during the covid lockdowns. five months later the country would see him again. >> the fbi says they have stopped a domestic terrorist group, a militia plot to kidnap the governor of michigan and overthrow the government. >> we're doing a recount or something and come up on some of them dude you either tell them to go right now or else they're going to die. period. >> this chilling footage of one member was released by federal prosecutors and shows just how far they were willing to go. at various points the plot included shooting the governor at her vacation house and demolishing a bridge to slow police response >> i am sick of being robbed and enslaved by the state, period. >> after spending so much time overseas focused on terrorism
did you ever think that there would be such a challenging domestic terrorism threat here in your own country? >> no. it has been a hard thing for me to take some of the skills that i learned in a very specific time in my career and apply them to people who i see becoming radicalized in my own community in my own country. >> a former cia analyst michigan congresswoman alyssa slotkin has spent her career pursuing extremist groups and now chairs the house subcommittee on domestic terrorism. >> michigan is one of the few states that has a domestic terrorism law that has anti-militia laws. if you're trying to assassinate an elected leader you've crossed a real line. if you're going to threaten violence there are going to be consequences to that. >> in the case of the wolverine watchmen 8 of the 14 defendants were charged under michigan's domestic terrorism law while the remaining six were charged with federal crimes. >> this wasn't just a bunch of
guys sitting around in a basement drinking beers and kind of wishing they could do something. they took action. they conducted surveillance. they thought through weapons. they thought through supreme court plans. >> what are the parallels between overseas terrorism and domestic terrorism? >> certainly that road that people take, you know, from someone who is sitting in their house and kind of dabbling online particularly young men are just fed a diet of disinformation and misinformation and they absorb it and they start believing it and they start holding fast to these conspiracy theories. >> so a lawyer for one of the men involved in the kidnapping plot of governor whitmer has agreed to talk to us. he suggested that i come over and meet him at his hunting club. hey, mark. >> hi, lisa. >> how are you? nice to see you. >> nice to meet you. bandit here.
>> he is ready. hello, bandit. mark represents one of the wolverine watchmen, a shy 25-year-old aircraft mechanic named ty garbon who grew up in a blue collar suburb of detroit. he has pled guilty to a federal kidnapping conspiracy charge which carries a potential life sentence. i know michigan is known for being a big hunting state. >> november 15th the opening day of rifle season is a state holiday here. so you can see bandit on point right there. bandit has a pheasant. >> you got that one weefrjs did. bandit, dead bird. fetch it up. >> why is this state such a haven for armed groups and militias?
>> you have a very thriving hunting culture. you find a group that likes guns and then they find that they share common interests that believe in things like the first amendment right to air their grievances or bitch about their government. the second amendment right to possess guns while they're doing it. i think there is a certain element of sort of pushing each other incrementally toward a place where they wake up one day and they start saying things like, somebody has to change this. >> in michigan which had some of the nation's toughest covid restrictions many residents felt the governor's extension of the stay at home order constituted government overreach. what did governor whitmer represent to people like your client? >> fear, hypocrisy, everything that they don't like about government. our client said i got into a place because of the pandemic, because of the political culture in this country, where i really felt like talking about kidnapping the governor was a
realistic option and i shouldn't have. >> but garbon did more than just talk. he trained with the group, conducted reconnaissance, and attempted to manufacture explosive devices. many of the members of these armed groups are white men. do you think there is a fear that whoite men are feeling abot the state of this country, the state of the world? >> the thing that divides us the most is that the white men you talk about look backwards to an american dream that was very real for them. it provided opportunity. it provided economic freedom. then we have the other half that america left behind. and those folks say, fine. that america was great for you. it didn't work for us. and so the conflict comes from this group saying, you're trying to destroy that america because you're changing it. and the other group is saying,
no. we just want it for us, too. >> to understand the kind of drastic upheaval that's taken place in michigan over the past hundred years we just need to look to detroit. in the first half of the 20th century the city was an industrial boom town with high paying blue collar jobs in manufacturing. after world war ii many of those good jobs began to disappear. racial tension and widespread reports of police brutality fueled riots in 1967 and fault lines were drawn. detroit became the blackest city in america and a democratic stronghold. while many whites headed for the suburbs and rural michigan with grievances of a lost way of life. >> given this political climate, this period of instability woe are feeling, do you think this is going to continue? >> i wish i was more comfortable saying no.
but with every passing day it seems like we're dliriven furth apart and the same elements driving people to do this are not going anywhere. >> and the thing that complicates it is there are so many guns in this country. >> some of the folks i have represented would answer that by saying, okay, lisa. i grant what you say is true. but you're more afraid of the populists with guns than you are of the government. i'm more afraid of the government than the people with the guns. >> an estimated 23 million guns were purchased in 2020. enough weapons to arm every single person in the state of florida. meanwhile, manufacturers can't produce bullets fast enough to keep them on the shelves. now with newly armed militia groups on the streets it seems woe are precariously close to a breaking point. >> woe the people are in charge. >> no you're not.
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leader in 5g and a partner who delivers exceptional customer support, and 5g included in every plan, so you get it all. ♪ ♪ i know the best coffee spot in town. i can make a rustic cabin feel modern. i am a guidebook for guests. i can make an indoorsy person, outdoorsy. i give families a home, not just a place to stay. i am a vrbo host. ♪ ♪ two years ago you would likely find magnus painting dungeons and draegon figures in
his living room and making a modest living selling them at festivals. today you'd be more likely to find him painting this. magnus identifies as a boogaloo boy part of a group that emerged two years ago in online forums. it began as a bunch of memes. a play on the name of a break dancing movie. which morphed into civil war 2 and then simply boogaloo as a term for impending war in america. a shared internet culture then jumped into a real life paramilitary movement complete with its own wardrobe of hawaiian shirts, big igloo symbols, and, yes, semiautomatic weapons. how would you characterize the boogaloo movement? >> broad, antigovernment in all forms and fashions more than anything else. >> the boogaloo boys are pro gun but unlike many right leaning militias they don't sympathize with trump or the republican
party. they're libertarian and anti-police with no leaders or central organization. i want to understand what drew magnus to the movement and why he feels we've reached a point of no return. so tell moe a little bit about your upbringing. >> my family are all kind of like hippies sort of. so i grew up in the middle of nowhere, northern michigan, population 300 town. very isolated. >> what were some of the things that really made an impact on you after you left your bubble? >> definitely living in detroit and just kind of seeing, like, the idea of what america is supposed to be kind of doesn't exist there. there are abandoned buildings, the infrastructure destroyed but we have a state income tax and pay a lot of money. where is all the money going? >> in 2014 the city of detroit shut down water access to thousands who couldn't pay their water bills. magnus became an activist, helping residents illegally turn their water back on. what was your interaction with
law enforcement back then? >> always extreme. multiple times just getting pulled over, thrown over the front of the car, car searched. being hit with batons, yelled at. >> in the wake of back-to-back police killings in march of 2020 including that of breonna taylor magnus began attending rallies fully armed in support of black lives matter protesters. >> if the government continues to be illegitimate and tie ran call and uncaring the summer will be nothing compared to what is to come. >> do you think militias have too often been painted as kind of extremist white supremacists? >> yes. a hundred percent. you have leftist militias, communist militias, asian militias, and that is kind of where you got to this point now where you can be at an event and have seven different militias open carrying rifles in the same place. >> with totally different ideologies. >> yes. >> what was it like for you as this tall, white guy with a
beard >> like some places it's aggressive and people don't want us there, by others we're welcome there, we're they're dedicated security. >> what kinds of firearms do you show up with? >> usually rifles. the whole point of showing up with guns is people are infinitely less willing to start a fistfight when a bunch of people have guns and the same with the police. the police's demeanor towards activists and protesters changes when guns are involved. they will escalate and use force on the protesters for nothing. armed protests, they don't want anything to do with it. >> so do you just think everyone at this point should just arm up? >> yeah. i would love it to be utopia we could snap our fingers and all the scary guns go away and everything would be fine and peaceful, but especially now, you think you're going to go to a bunch of black panthers and blm activists and tell them to
hand the guns over to the cops they've been protesting for the last year. don't think that's going to happen, no. >> are you being looked at as a domestic terrorist organization? >> i've been visited by dhs, fbi, they'll show up to our work, show up to our houses. >> what's your social media status? >> banned off of literally everything. i can't make a new facebook on my account. my instagram on my business, i never posted anything political at all, didn't have my name on it. that got banned. my etsy page got banned. >> you were banned from etsy? >> yes, my etsy page was taken down. >> where is this all going to end? >> i mean, if you look at the last four years, constant doubting of elections, street violence, different factions fighting each other, murders, assassinations, a car bomb blew up in nashville, i don't think that america is going to be what we see it as now for much longer. >> are you willing to give your life for this cause?
>> oh, 100%. we almost all agree it's a death sentence to be involved with this whatsoever that you're going to get your door kicked in eventually no matter what. >> that doesn't scare you? >> i kind of would rather live free and try to accomplish something than live forever, scared and desperately hoping not to get the door knocked. >> that sentiment, risking your life for freedom, was central to the identity of the founding fathers and our nation. but their battle was against a foreign power. what happens when the battle pits us against one another?
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during an emergency. ♪ what happened on january 6th was more than an attack on the capitol. according to congresswoman, it was an attack on you and me. the american people. what did january 6th represent to this country in terms of the threat that it poses to our national security? >> if 9/11 was this generational event where the greatest threats to the united states were coming from abroad, january 6th was the beginning of a different era where the greatest threat to american national security right now is the divisiveness between americans. >> so many of these militia members will say that they have
a right to rise up against a tyrannical government. >> they believe they do. but as we saw from the number of arrests that came out of january 6th, you do not have the right to an armed insurrection against the u.s. government. i have tried to read very carefully the words of our founders. i do not believe they meant that every tom, dick and harry could start their own militia for whatever cause they felt. and in some instances reek havoc on a community. >> with many private militia groups in a legal gray zone, there's little for a government to do proactively but social media companies have pulled the accounts of silver back, magnus and thousands of other users with militia leanings. and i wonder just how productive that really is. i know that a lot of people affiliated with militias are deplatformed off social media,
why is that when they haven't actually commit nid crimes? >> i think we have to acknowledge that we are not settled as a nation on how social media should be governed. for many years they allowed plenty of radicalization to take place on their platforms. and after january 6th, the social media companies say, oh, that was too much for us. you know, that was over the line. and so they just shut down people en masse. and neither approach before or after january 6th is right. >> i talked to a guy who can't get a grubhub account. i wonder if that makes it more difficult to monitor his activity. >> absolutely. >> and it could drive these guys even further under ground. >> this is the same conundrum we had in the post 9/11 era is that you would see groups organizing and once you expose them, they scattered. and they became harder for us to know what they were plotting and planning.
>> is there something to the idea of kind of reaching out to these people who are feeling like their voices have become marginalized? >> absolutely. if we just decide we're going to close the door, and that's it, we'll go live in our corner and you go live in your corner. that's just not possible. that will not work. and that will mean bigger problems down the road. we have to figure out how to get to a place where we can absolutely disagree, but not with anger and violence and vitriol. but the only way we're going to do that is if people stop seeing each other as the other and and work on things that they have in common. >> you know, the world has just changed so much in the last year, in fact, over the last couple of years there has just been so much unpredictability and instability and change. in america, that often comes along with guns. and the right to bear them is
enshrined in our constitution, so it's hard to know if there's a way back from this, and i just hope that as this chapter of american history is being written that it doesn't end in more violence. ♪ ♪ did you know what you were taking on in that kind of sense, not being able to just walk down the street? >> no. i didn't. >> i don't think the royal family quite knew what to do with her. >> there was just a real frenzy around diana. >> it was like having