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tv   Reliable Sources with Brian Stelter  CNN  October 31, 2021 8:00am-9:00am PDT

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hey, i'm brian stelter live in new york and this is "reliable sources," where we examine the story behind the story and try to figure out what's reliable. this hour a media frenzy in virginia. new calls for journalists to step up their game. david sirota will join me live. also, mark zuckerberg's
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arrogance, does it know any boundaries at all? cara switcher is here on that and the company formally known as facebook. and lastly, what is pundits thinking, what is he taking a stand for? but first, was the peaceful power in january something of a miracle, and will it be repeated? let me explain why i'm asking. the deterioration of democracy is a daily story in america. look at a politico headline from the other day about just how conspiratorial trump world has become. the headline says, as fear grows in trump world, have we gone too c con spirittorial?" interesting question because on the very same day, trump dropped this for patriot purge, an extremist series. it goes full 1/6 denialism. riot denialism, election
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denialism, it is all of a piece. and some anchors and writers are trying to expose that, trying to to oppose those fears of democracy. saying donald trump's slow-motion coup is becoming a runaway train. but i have to tell you something, there are other journalists outside of cnn who see what is happening, who see the conspiracy clouds forming, who see the election subversion efforts intensifying and they don't feel like they can say so, they feel constrained. i had about a half dozen conversations with a-list journalists about this in the past month. they tell me in private that their news outlets are struggling over how to cover this daily assault on democracy, this drip, drip, drip. well, one way to do it is by mapping out the road ahead. let's look at the stops along the way.
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because so much might happen in the next three years is sadly predictable. imagine it's 2022. right wing media keeps pummeling president biden, weakening him, calling him a tyrant one minute and senile the next. donald trump is in complete control of the gop and his entire political existence is premised on the big lie. he launches his own version of twitter and streams a talk show on the web and it doesn't get as many viewers as fox but it sets the agenda on the hard right and the agenda is revenge, taking back what he says was stolen. big lines rallying cries supplies years worth of headlines for maga media. and they hold on to keep their jobs. trumpers like sean hannity are important, attacking dissenters for daring to stray. some have to leave the party. trump continues to traverse the country, holding rallies under the banner save america, middle easterning america is under such
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dire threat they need to be saved by democrats. these are on newsmax and onn and streamed all over the place. and they continue to place new restrictions on voting rights with local radio hosts and commentators providing all of the rhetorical cover this season. the savvy ones say it's about voter integrity. the cuter ones say it's been making sure real americans are heard and illegals are not. even if republicans are charged with illegal voting, even when it's republicans doing it, they claim democrats are the real criminals. in the right media echo chamber the world democrats con flag rated constantly so the other side loses legitimacy bit by bit. the gop is on board with this. they're on board with a power grab at all costs, driven by 2350er of a changing country, fear propelled by the likes of tucker carlson and laura ingraham, who bring up things like caravans right at key moments during the election. and all of this in 2022 help the
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gop regain control of the house. members of the january 6th sedition caucus are now in control of the body that completes the electoral process. some democrats fret about what will happen in 2024. they worry if the insurrectionists will have the upper hand next time but represent in trump reality, up is down and day is night. his propaganda machine so thoroughly rewrites the story of january 6th, most trump fans now say the riot was legitimate and a vir churous attempt to right or wrong the felonies, brutal injuries and suicides have been written out of the story. the rioters have been turning to the victims, and most people by the end of 2022 have a sinking feeling that more riots are ahead. now imagine it's 2023. trump officially announces he's running again. he faces another challenger but it is still his party, partly because he's great for right wing ratings and clicks.
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he's convinced his base he's the only one who could restore them to power. when critics deride the trump cult, his super fans embrace that word. they start printing cult t-shirts. some guzzle red kool-aid at rallies. some embrace themselves calling themselves trump ets, pledging to share only real news about the candidates to get around the cnns of the world. of course, their real news is largely misinformation. meanwhile key election boards are reshaped in trump's favor and the maga media machine gins up even more hatred gets legislators in states. legislation is one of the key weapons, cars, buses, all mess ig ways. but pro-trumpers say liberals threaten us too so just getting even. there's always an excuse provided for un-democratic behavior. what about ism is the name of the game, turning out shelves of
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books for every liberal instinct and religious blasters blast out daily prophecies about trump being god's vessel against demonic democrats. the average "the new york times" reader almost alnever sees any this but it's out there every day. remember, it's 2023, gop primary season, democrats pointing out trump is a wanna be autocrat are insulted by fox stars, triggering hate campaigns against them. reporters trying to counter lies jeered and smeared more than ever before. his verbal attacks to severe, beatings at rallies, bombs in newsrooms. the bombs don't explode but that's besides the point. fear is the point, silence through force. let's continue down the road a little further. imagine it's 2024 now. trump is the gop nominee. he's feeding off biden's missteps in a foreign crisis. his big lie from 2020 has become absolute accepted truth in his
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party. and there's a clear difference between the people who pay for news and subscribe to news sources and want to know what is true versus people who pay for views, incendiary views that they want to be true. and that's what maga media is all about, incendiary views. there's a market for this. it's a giant grip. even more save america websites are launching to sell affirmation and merch totz fateful. these guys don't cite the news, they spin the news in trump's favor. they start to publish enemies' lists and people dream of what they will do if trump is denied power, which weapons they'll use, who they will hurt. at far right conferences, people ask when do we get to use the guns? and how many elections are they going to steal before we kill these people? americans are at each other's throats, spun up by the sick stuff they see on social media. every day some random hyper local story about a migrant from haiti or refugee from afghanistan is blown out of
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proportion into some doomsday international story about the death of white america's way of life. this is all you hear about on right wing raidia and rumble, they're killing us, that's the election narrative and this 12u6 trickles down destroying civil discourse, even at a local level. neighbors turn on neighbors. normally easy going elections turn into existential battles. it feels like there's republican bars and democrat bars, kmong ground ee roads largely because there's no common media ground anymore. it's as if america's been swallowed up by qanon conspiracy theories. freedom of expression feels trampled, muscled. and, remember, as all of this is happening, as democracy deteriorates in 2024, trump's enablers claim they're the ones protecting democracy. they think, or at least they pretend, they're upholding the declaration of independence. they cloak their autocratic
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actions in the language of the founding father. they claim to be the most patriotic americans of them all and this narrative is advanced 24 hours a day by the abc, the apps, broadcasters and commentators who justify stumping all over the constitution as an attempt to save it. now imagine it's election day 2024. trump is the leader of a new lost-cause movement. every single voice on fox has his back. but outlets like oan still call fox liberal comey pinkio whatever it takes to steal viewers from the top channel and fox responds by moving even further to the right, quad druping down on red meat opinion over news. there will be no repeat of the arizona race call. telling the truth is too risky. the goppers who used to be responsible party officials are you carrering to trump. election boards are, to borrow a
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word, rigged. board up downtown windows. maybe looting starts. i'm not saying all of this will happen, but i'm saying it could. we know it could happen because it's all happened before. almost everything i have described as already happened in one form or another. books like "peril" have all of the evidence and the next big book about trump and election deversion is "betrayal" by jonathan carl. it comes out in november. it has even more evidence of trump betraying democracy. karl writes in his final chapter that trump came so close to the edge last winter, closer than most americans appreciate. i want to read to you one line from what karl says. he says, quote, i didn't realize it at the time but as i reported on this book, became convinced that the peaceful transfer of power that happened as scheduled on january 20th was something of
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a miracle. we know what trump will do, so what will the rest of us do? that's the story for the american media for the next three years. now, let me bring in three guests to talk more about this and to drill down on the murdoch of it all. julie roginsky, former fox news contributor and democratic strategist, astead wesley, "the new york times" and cnn analyst and bill carter, also with me, cnn media analyst. let's bring everybody in for a conversation, hopefully a little more optimistic than i was at the beginning. let's game out and talk through what happened this week. i think the drip, drip, drip element is really important here and we have to go through the details of what's happening day by day. julie, you used to work at fox news and i'm sure you saw tucker
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carlson's promo for this january 6th rewrite, patriot purge thing he's claiming he says is a new war on terror going after conservatives. clearly rupert murdoch and lachlan murdoch are approving of this content. i wonder if you recognize the fox news of today based on what you know from the fox news where you worked? i don't hear julie, and i don't think you all do either. we will try to get that fixed for a second. bill carter, let me go to you, sir. >> sure. >> i know you have strong feelings on the rupert murdoch empire, whether it's "the wall street journal" publishing the lie-filled letter with trump this week. are the murdoches trying to become threats to democracy? is rupert murdoch a threat to american democracy? >> i think they're willing to be. whether they're trying to, they're certainly willing to be. and i feel like they have basically conceded that they can't control the audience
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preferences so they're going to go with it. the thing that carlson is doing right now is so outrageous and over the top that you would think any responsible -- would step back and say we can't do that. we can't allow that. but they got him in a box. if he said, you can't do this, we will take you off the air, they would just go somewhere else and take their viewers with them. and they're not willing to do that because they're in the business of cashing in on people's paranoia and all of the hostility that they gin up. so it's part of their overall strategy. they're not going to back away from it. >> while we try to get julie back, i want to step back and ask you about interviewing voters earlier this month. >> yes. >> do you hear on the ground tz effects, influence of murdoch media, tucker's narratives, do you hear it firsthand? >> you absolutely hear the same themes but i think it's a lot bigger than just fox or rupert
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murdoch. we're talking about an entire ecosystem as you mentioned in the open. so for a lot of people, they are fully engrossed in a social media, in a kind of internet ecosystem that leads up and includes fox news. it's actually much larger than that. it's a self-fulfilling, self-selecting bubble, cocoon that a lot of folks are in. i can tell you from virginia, florida and even the run-up to the election, that cocoon has never been tighter. they are convinced on the false reality of that january 6th was a peaceful protest. they are convinced about the false reality of the november election being stolen and that is the driving factor. they're creating that i think litmus test for the republican politicians who are running now. they say if you don't agree with him on those two issues, they're not going to have any starting point with them. that's how they're purging some of the republicans who do not agree with him on that front, it's because the bait has really motivated itself around this and demanding politicians and fox
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media to follow through. >> astead, you're a political reporter but very sharp media critic. i love your insights on twitter. what do you want newsrooms to be doing differently or what needs to be emphasized more in the coverage of these matters? >> think about it in a couple of ways. one, i think it's a mistake for us to think of january 6th as an isolated event. that was certainly a high-profile one, shocking one coming to the seat of democracy. even as we continue, you have many january 6s. you have rallies pushing the so-called big lie over and over and these woeful and state elections, that narrative is continuing. i would also say we should not think of democracy as something that's been stable for a long time and just upended with donald trump. >> so this is a democrat -- >> has often excluded a lot of people, who has often used the false narrative of fake elections to exclude people of color, exclude rising constituencies that a lot of people didn't think had a real say in this democracy. so i think instead of thinking this as an outlier moment for the country, we are really
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seeing the chickens connme homeo roost in a democracy that's always been very fragile. it's kind of easier for me to see as someone who's black and known to be true their whole lives. but i think it's important for media to understand that also. this isn't a 200-year stable democracy that is now just coming under threat. this is something that's been not applied to many people for a long time, and we are seeing those narratives bubble up and be embraced by higher and higher profile figures. in a more explicit way certainly, in a more challenging way, certainly, but not in a way that's unique to the american story. >> absolutely. we are just getting started here. i think we have julie back. let's give it a try. julie, can you hear me? >> i can. >> i was building you up. you are our former fox insider. i want to hear your impression of tucker carlson's patriot purge doc, the general editorial letter to the editor, what is
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your impression? >> my impression is rupert murdoch is trying to cover his bases and have it both ways. on the other hand i think the part of rupert murdoch who is somewhat responsible knows it's not good for anything else. but business comes first. and as a result he's allowing people like tucker carlson and "the wall street journal" editorial page, which is ultimately is his baby, to do what they need to do to be in good graces with donald trump. and it's not really fooling anybody else to believe that he's doing this to give free speech rights to trump supporters or anybody else. ultimately he's doing this because he believes there's a very good possibility donald trump may be back in the oval office in two more years and that he, rupert murdoch, needs to do what he can for his business model. >> i see. >> that's totally irresponsible. and it's something i really think is bad for the country. he knows it too, which is the worst part of this whole story. >> bill, do you agree with julie? do you think rupert knows it? >> i do. i have interviewed him and he
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presents himself as a dignified guy, business and media titan, but he's always been a disruptive figure and that's the basis of his wealth and power. it's funny, he just turned 90. at 90 most people think of their lives on something they want to look back on and legacy he might leave. his legacy seems to be he was a robber barren. he basically came in, in the 1970s in pursuit of wealth and power and was willing to destroy things like the environment and what they're doing is democracy. i do feel like he thinks it's probably going too far. i don't think he's a wide-eyed radical person like his audience but that's who pays his bills. so he's willing to go with the moral bankruptcy of something like carlson because his bank account depends on it, so he's willing to go with it. but i think it's a terribly risky thing for the country. and the media has to stay on top of this story, that's the essence of your message, we have
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to stay all over this thing. >> julie, and thank you all. go ahead, julie. >> just to add one more thing, tucker carlson was handpicked by rupert murdoch, not roger ailes or suzanne scott. that was a rupert murdoch pick put in that 8:00 chair and everybody at fox knows that and the american people should know too who's responsible for tucker carlson. >> great point. rupert owns it. up next -- we'll chi on the man bites dog problem. plus, is it too late to save local journalism? it can't be, right. the answer to the problem may be found here in baltimore, and we're going to tell you all about it coming up. the exposed dentin to help repair sensitive teeth. life is just too short to miss out on simple things like drinking that cold cup of water or having a sip of hot coffee. i have the science to prove it, i can see that it works and i feel confident recommending it to my patients. i'm really excited to recommend new sensodyne repair and protect with deep repair.
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man bites dog problem. we live in the age of greats. there was the great shutdown of march 2020 or great lockdown when the coronavirus upended life in america and around the globe. and then the great reopening. we heard about businesses returning, people resuming some
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semi-normal life. we also heard about the great awakening, how the pandemic has opened people's eyes, maybe changed people's political preferences. and now we keep hearing about the great resignation and people either leaving jobs or re-evaluating work/life balance, finding better jobs or staying on the sidelines of the labor force. so many greats, causing great disruptions to our politics and, frankly, great american divides as well. for more on that big story, let me bring in david leonhardt, senior writer and columnist for "the new york times," writes the morning newsletter, must-read from "the new york times," good to see you. >> good to see you too, brian. >> i keep thinking about the language, everything has a great language these days, great shutdown, and maybe that's all true or maybe america just loves slogans. it seems journalists love slogans. we love distilling things into a
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sentence or phrase. but we're also living through these tectonic shifts in our lives that are hard to cover in 30-second soundbites and that's why newsletters are doing really well now, people need the longer reads to understand what's happening in our pandemic world. what are you seeing these days? >> you know, that reminds me, i'm a big sports fan. when you go back and look at sporting events and you say, well, it's been going on since 104 years ago but only happened 102 times because it didn't happen after pearl harbor. last year was one of those years, our kids and grandkids will look back and say all of this stuff didn't happen during doe ind covid. i think we're entering a tricky time for people to make decisions. things have gotten so much better. the vaccines overwhelmingly protect people from serious versions of covid. they turn them into a manageable flu or cold for the vast majority of people. not for absolutely everyone. if you're over 75 and you have
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pre-existing health conditions, you still might be vulnerable even if you're vaccinated. but for the vast majority of people, even older people, the vaccines turn this into something completely manageable. and yet we're not simply going to rapidly move towards a pre-covid world. cases have bumped up a little bit over the last four days and my guess is this week, you may start to hear a little bit more about that. we're going to have ebbs and flows in this and i think that's going to be very difficult for people to try to make decisions. the thing i would urge is, let's remember that doing too little to respond to covid has huge costs but doing too much also has costs and we have to get that balance right. >> why is forecasting the future of covid so tricky? you cautioned about this in your newsletter. why is it so tricky? >> because we don't understand it. because i think we understand it even less than we understand that we understand it, right? it's like no unknowns. >> wow. >> we think oh, covid surges
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because we spend more time indoors or covid surges because we take our masks off. but actually if you look at the data, sometimes covid falls even when people are taking more risks. and sometimes it declines when the opposite is happening. so, yes, things like social distancing matter but they don't matter as much as we think they matter. vaccines are the things that overwhelmingly matter and that's how you have this rapid decline in cases in september, even as kids were going back to school. there's no story that actually explains that. and so we just don't understand the way viruses work. and we need to be deeply humble about that. >> deeply humble, i like that. what about the man-bites-dog problem part of all of this? we focus on the outliers, minority, maybe the fringe. we don't focus on when dog bites man, when the normal thing happened, most people get vaccinated and get boosters. are you seeing that problem
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existing in covid coverage? >> i do. i would say if you're not a member of the media, i think it's important to keep in mind we in the media have a real bad news bias. some of that is healthy. we're confronted constantly with spokes people and corporations and politicians and athletes who are trying to tell us how everything is wonderful and perfect. so you really want us to have a certain skepticism, but we often go too far. so what that means is good news, when cases are declining or vaccines are working, tends to not receive very much attention and bad news receives enormous attention. when you're listening to covid news, just remember it's coming through this filter we in the media often have this bad-news bias. so dog bites man, man bites dog, the vaccine has been actually amazingly successful. it led a lot more people to be vaccinated than previously had been vaccinated. not that many people quit or got fired because of it. of course, we tend to hear more about the outliers. they're real, they need some
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attention. but just remember they are outliers. >> speaking of outliers, a popular radio host is out there saying he might quit his radio show, he doesn't agree with cumulus having a vaccine mandate, even though he's vaccinated, he wants to stand up for staffers who don't want to get the vaccination. and there's a story eyed-t quitting a movie because he reported willy doesn't want to get vaccinated. and these outliers, these stories, they're interesting because they're shocking. who would give up $9 million not to get vaccinated? but these stories exist and they do merit some attention. >> they do. the thing i would say if people quit or get fired because they won't take the vaccine, i wouldn't think of that -- there's real good news there. it is your legal right to not take the vaccine. we live in a country that prioritizes individual freedom. but if you refuse to take the vaccine, you're putting a lot of people's parents and
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grandparents, including some who are vaccinated, people who are immunocompromised, you're putting those people at risk of serious illness or even death. so if the punishment that you need to take for potential harming others is you can't have the job you had, i don't have a problem with that. you're choosing to put others at risk, people who can't protect themselves and that means i don't have a lot of sympathy for what you have to forfeit. >> that's a very different frame than the one dan bonn geno's putting on what he's doing. i hope his viewers hear it. thank you very much. >> thanks, brian. my next guest has a blazing critique of the d.c. budget battle. david sirota joins us live next.
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it's a big week, big week for president biden, really big week, biggest week yet. feels like we hear a version of that every single week. maybe we should try to analyze it or scrutinize that framing a little bit. here to do that and much more, david sirota. he is the founder of the daily poster. he also out with a really interesting new podcast called "meltdown," which we will talk about in a minute. david, good to see you. >> good to see you. >> you were writing speeches for bernie sanders in 2020 so we know side you're on or side of the democratic fight you're on. i would love to hear your number one critique of biden's social safety net failed and battle to get it through congress, how it's being covered in the press, your number one critique. >> my number one critique is there hasn't been a lot of following of the money. if you pay attention to the
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conversation in the media, there hasn't been a lot of context about which industries are buying which politicians. you see the parties fighting with each other, you see the pieces of the democratic coalition fighting with each other, but removed from much of the story is the fact the oil industry, fossil fuel industry is pumping a lot of money into this, the pharmaceutical industry is pumping a lot of money into this. many of the members of congress who are trying to kill democrats' promised prescription drug plan, they have taken a huge amount of money from the pharmaceutical industry. so writing the money behind the bill out of the story of the brill is a huge problem. and it doesn't give viewers and readers the context that they need. >> and this relates to your new series "meltdown," which you have done and i think it's important because it gives historical context over the last 12 years. you go back to the financial crisis and say, a lot of what's happened since, trump's election, it's all because of the financial meltdown of 2008/2009. how can we infuse more
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historical context into today's news coverage? >> well, look, i think when you take the reconciliation bill that's in congress right now, there's this baked-in idea that the democrats have to basically pare back the promised agenda to basically win the midterm elections. of course, if you go back to the 2009/2010 era, which we do during our fodpodcast "meltdown democrats do the same thing. they did it for regular people. they did a huge bailout for big bankers, bankers who created the problem unto itself. and there was a huge back lack. democrats ended up getting shellacked, the words of barack obama, they were shellacked in part because there was a lot of disillusionment from voters who said, look, we were promised help. we didn't get help. if you fast forward to today, a lot of the media coverage presumes democrats need to pare back their agenda in order to
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appease so-called moderate voters but the historical context in fact says the exact opposite. >> so we have to infuse what we know from history into the daily coverage. and what we need is a little bit less of the kind of hysterical minute by minute and a little bit more of the broader story here. where can we find "meltdown," by the way? >> it's on audible right now. >> there we go. thanks for coming on the program. good to see you. >> thank you, thanks for having me. up next, the one and only kara swisher here, and we are going to get meta. ♪ ♪
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liver problems,...and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. where can we find "meltdown," by going to get meta. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. with once-a-month cabenuva, i'm good to go. ask your doctor about once-monthly cabenuva. meta. >> meta. >> meta. >> meta. meta. >> all right, if facebook was trying to distract from the facebook files and all of the papers and all of the whistle blowing, maybe it worked. the name change did get a lot of people talking this week. so let's talk about it, and also the bigger story with kara
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swisher. of course she's the host of the "sway" podcast for "the new york times" and she knows everyone in brig big tech. they love or hate her or fear her or all of the above. >> good to see you, brian. >> do they actually love this? >> it's not the point, it's analog and physical. yes, it's matters. it's computing and where people are going next. and there will be a future ar and dr in future computing, the way mobile led to apps. there's an idea with metaverse where you interact with people around the globe. it's not so different than holograms and things like that. his is a little creepy, honestly, but it's fine. it's been in movies. it goes back to "snow crash" but it's where way before that. there's been all of these ideas how to create this from the '60s
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and even before that in early sci-fi movies like "the matrix." you can imagine it whatever you want. >> so we will see if it really does -- if this version comes to fruition. >> yes. >> but what's the big story about facebook now, it's not meta. what's the real issue? >> i think the real issue is how it manages its social media, the biggest business and facebook, however you slice it. the other divisions, oculus and others, are a sideline to what's going on there. and i mash instagram up with facebook because that's the one that's closely aligned to it. whether it's whatsapp, oculus, whatever, most of the focus should be on the main platform, which is facebook. >> do you feel like there's enough focus there? does mark zuckerberg get covered like the head of state that he is? >> oh, yeah. i don't know if you watched last week, but it got a ton of attention and finally congress is paying attention in a substantive way. before they have done the hearings and people made fun of his physical thing, which was
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ridiculous. we should look at the business and look at how it's doing and what it's doing to our society and whether it's being managed in a proper way and then discuss the issues how to solve it. there's all of these thorny first amendment issues mixed in with it and everything else. at the very heart of it is this is an industry, all of tech, that has not been regulated ever by anybody. >> and now there is so much scrutiny over big tech. they have a lot of sway, they're getting scrutiny. who has a lot of sway that doesn't get the scrutiny? who are you trying to book on your podcast? who are the people who have sway but don't get enough media scrutiny? >> we look at all of them. i had tim cook on talking about all things, including the app store. that's the big issue there. i think probably not a enough scrutiny is on youtube. mark gets a lot of scrutiny and this is the biggest and why people are paying attention to it and it's the most impactful but i think youtube and stuff going on there should probably be looked at in a stronger way, in conjunction with facebook, because they're very similar sets of issues.
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i think obviously you have to look at amazon and marketplace issues. overall you have to look at the data issues and privacy issues. we don't have a privacy bill in this country that's national. we have them in certain states. there are all kinds of things, transparency. there was just a story yesterday in "the post" about how much facebook knew about anti-vax stuff, that kind of stuff. >> a lot of it is quite scary. are you dressling up for halloween, kara, maybe be mark zuckerberg? >> no, i don't. i dress up as a broadcaster. >> scarier at your mic. thank you very much for coming on. next, we go back to my home state of maryland. they're looking at the great city of baltimore where there will soon be a new banner for local news. we're going to tell you about it in a moment. rals powered by 100% drug-free ingredients. are you gonna leaf me hanging? soothe your cough naturally. what makes new salonpas arthritis gel so good for arthritis pain?
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this could be a banner headline. there there be a non-profit subscription-based outlet sometimes competing with t"the baltimore sun" newspaper. hiring kim oh machine know of "the los angeles times," hire 50 reporters and launch next year. i asked where his interest came from. he said it came from witnessing declines firsthand.
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>> it stopped when i was in the maryland general assembly for eight years in annapolis between 1979 and 1987. there were six maryland daily robust newspapers covering annapolis and all the shenanigans going on there. gwen ifill was with the morning sun at the time and i could list a half dozen or so others that went on and became nationally important journalists. now instead of six papers, there's basically two there, the sun and the post. they have fewer reporters, and that's just annapolis. then you look at different county and city governments around the state, not to mention the zoning a appeals board, the liquor board and so forth. >> when i was growing up, snooping around annapolis, there
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were very few reporters then. we've seen the decline over the decades. what do you blame -- >> well t business model for local news has changed dramatically. the internet has dis intermediate ated that business. it used to be a business to business operation, in other words, advertisers provided most of the revenue and subscriptions less so. now the advertisers are going national with facebook and google and so forth. so that cash flow is not there for the local news. so it's a business model that's collapsed, and the question is, is there another business model that's self-sustaining that can replace the old business model, because "the sun" used to have 420 reporters, full-time journalists. now there's like 70 at "the sun" and the business model has changed. it's a shadow of what it used to
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be. it's not just there. it's in papers around the country. our aspiration here -- we have two goals, brian. one is local. one is national. both are ambitious. the local one is to build a first-rate local news operation in baltimore that tells the stories of the people in baltimore and holds our leaders to account and strengthens the community. the national one is to do that in such a way that it's a sustainable business that can finance itself. and in that way, that business model can be proven and replicated in communities in all 50 states. >> it's ambitious, but we need it. >> it's a huge need because without it, it's difficult for people on this side of town to know what the stories are on the other side of town in dramatically different neighborhoods at times. so when you don't -- aren't
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sharing those stories, empathy and understanding go down and polarization rises. >> i'm so glad you brought that up. >> and creates more problems. >> that's right. the hollowing out of local news does go a pretty long way to explain what's happening in our politics. >> i think so. i think so. how do you know who you're voting for. how do you know who is on the ballot. how do you know what their values are, what skeletons may not be in their closet and what skeletons might be in their closet if you don't have nosey reporters around profiling these people. >> that's really the heart of the matter. check out the rest of my conversation with stewart bainem. we go into great detail about what "the baltimore banner" hopes to be. check it out, cnn.com/audio. on this happy halloween i thought it would be nice to share how some of your favorite
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cnn anchors are dressing up. i'm not dressing up. jake tapper did, as ted lasso. here are members of jake tapper's team. next kate bolduan as elvis. outstanding. this is why i don't dress up. i can't top these. don lemon and his fiancee tim malone shared this last night. it's incredible. whoopi and joy. we hope you have a great happy halloween. we'll see you back here this time next week. that's certified head turns. and it's all backed by our unlimited mileage warranty. that means unlimited peace of mind. mercedes-benz certified pre-owned. translation: the mercedes of your dreams is closer than you think.
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do or die. president biden gathers with global leaders to tackle a warming planet in what could be the last best chance to curb the climate crisis. >> it's about leading the world or letting the world pass us by. >> will america lead? secretary of state antony blinken joins me to discuss next. and deja vu. democrats set another deadline after the president asks for

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