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tv   Reliable Sources with Brian Stelter  CNN  October 24, 2021 8:00am-9:00am PDT

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positions gives workers the leverage to experiment. many workers have left their jobs to start their own businesses, and rise in entrepreneurship would add much-needed dinism to the american economy. striketober, cerebral word, and the great resignation may look cha chaotic, but this is just the kind of chaos america needs. thanks for all of you for being part of my program this week. i will see you all next week. hey, i'm brian stelter live in studio here in new york. this is "reliable sources," where we examine the story behind the story. we try to figure out what's reliable? this hour a veteran political reporter who just can't take in anymore. she says the press is failing the public by soft pedaling the gop's radicalization. her name is jackie comous and she will join me live. and why bursting the fox media bubble is so hard. we look at the youtube rabbit
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holes. and a productive point of view about the delusions that fueled the big lie. first, what is facebook doing to us? maybe the better question is phrased this way, what are we doing to each other with the tools, with the weapons facebook is providing? that is going to be a big theme this coming week as a consortium you of news outlets come out with stories based observe internal facebook reports and discussions. these are just a few of the participating news outfits, cnn, ap, "the times," the atlantic, bloomberg, and the ap said it's coming out monday, kicking off what axios called a week-long facebook flood. but all we're we are seeing reports like this one on the top page of "the washington post" this morning looking at reactions signed facebook after january 6th. the stories are based in part on the documents that frances haugen smuggled out of facebook. she handed over evidence to the sec alleging facebook had been misleading investors and the
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public. now redacted versions of those papers she provided are in the hands of dozens of journalists, who are combing through them looking for new insight, and the result is the reporting you're starting to see this weekend. reporting about misinformation tripping alarms inside facebook, about debates internally, about what and how to do. a lot of stories overnight and this morning about the rampant spread of hate in india, how facebook platforms in india stoked religious hatred and caused so much violence and even death in india, a reminder this is a global story we're talking about. and that's why this next quote stood out to me the most. this is from a news story in "the wall street journal," citing a july 2020 report from inside facebook. a muslim man in mub buy said to facebook researchers, quote, if social media survives ten more years like this, there will be only hatred. there will be only hatred.
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these platforms, they're pulling at us, pulling us apart. that's one of the themes of the facebook papers and that's one of the big events on monday. we're going to see more stories from the facebook papers on monday. also on monday, expected testimony from the parliament for its draft online safety of bill. third, when markets close in the u.s., facebook will release its quarterly earnings on monday, sure to show extraordinary profits from its billions of users and many advertising customers. p so while facebook gets richer, we all get poorer. standing by here, facebook oversight board member suzanne nossel. first, senator democratic richard blume thal, chair of the science and safety subcommittee and the committee that held the first hearing with facebook whis whistle-blower frances haugen. senator, thank you for coming on the program. you've been reading the story
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based on the facebook papers this weekend. what new have you learned? >> what we are seeing, brian, is really a drumbeat of disclosures from facebook and instagram's own files, and that point is really important because the research and the studies that reveal facebook putting profits over people are from facebook's own files revealed to them long before it was revealed to us, and yes they disregarded them and continued exploiting children to fatten their bottom lines. and i think what we are seeing here is a building drumbeat for accountability. a movement for reform that will require disclosure of the powerful algorithms that drive destructive content to children and others, the hate speech in foreign countries and also the anger and depression that is
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amplified by those algorithms as it leads children down rabbit holes in this kind of feedback cycle. be prepared for more disclosures coming this week and in the coming weeks. >> you have been putting pressure on mark zuckerberg to testify before your committee. what day, can you tell us, when he's coming? >> i wish i could. i wish mark zuckerberg would stand up to his responsibility. he controls that company in a way few other single individuals do in corporate america, and he should be held accountable, so should facebook, for the kind of destructive content they're pushing. we're asking not only from mark zuckerberg but disclosure for all of these documents that you're seeing now in realtime from other whistle-blowers and we anticipate and hope there will be more whistle-blowers. >> that's interesting, have you heard from many others? >> we know of others. we hope to hear from others. we hope we'll have testimony
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from others if they're willing to step forward. i think what you are seeing is facebook employees who are disgusted and just fed up saying enough is enough, coming forward because facebook itself disbanded that civic integrity unit that was supposed to impose some accountability. but, clearly, facebook is unable to police itself, unable to impose self-moderation, and that's why this reform is going to build as a movement. >> and all of this leads us to what exactly? facebook says it wants regulations. what exactly are you hoping to accomplish? >> what we are hearing from facebook is platitudes and brougham ides. when it says it wants regulations, at the same time it's fighting that regulation tooth and nail day and night with armies of lawyers, billions of dollars in lobbying.
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so i must say, facebook saying it wants regulations is the height of disingenuousness. what we want is facebook in fact to cooperate in imposing legal accountability, piercing the shield of legal immunity that it has and other tech platforms have, we want to go and explore other tech platforms as well. we're having tiktok, snapchat, youtube testify on tuesday. i've heard from parents, they see the same problem that occurs on facebook and instagram, eating disorders, online bullying, self-harm, even suicide. we want facebook in effect to face the music here and come clean, reveal all of its files. it says we've been selectively curating what's been disclosed but facebook ought to come clean and reveal everything.
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>> so that next hearing on tuesday, you're broadening out, you're looking at these other platforms as well. do you view them in rank order? do you view facebook as the worst offender and others lower down? how do you handle that? >> for me the question is not who's the worst but how do we reform them all, not a race to the bottom. it should be a race to the top. and what i would like to see is there will be competition for who can be the best. instead what we saw over the weekend was a report that google a year or so ago, in fact, tried to discourage participation by other tech platforms in cooperating with the government. and so i think that we're on the verge of the public really demanding this reform movement and rather than try to rank who's worse, i would like to see the ranking as to who is the
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best. >> ptouche. senator blumenthal, thank you so much for being here. this just in, a new memo from nick clegg, top executive at facebook saying, hey, staffers, brace for more bad headlines in the coming days. that is because the facebook papers we were talking about, disclosures coming from frances haug's's document dump that reporters are combing through and we're going to see more of those stories in the coming days. another perspective, let me bring in suzanne nossel, ceo of the oversight board and ceo of fan america. great to see you. >> great to be here. >> for folks who don't know what it is, what is it you all do on the board? >> sure. facebook decided roughly two years ago that they wanted to bring in outside expertise to oversee their content decisions. they didn't want to bear the full weight of responsibility for big questions like should donald trump be allowed on the platform? i think they're very ambivalent about regulation. a lot of people think the creation of the board was an effort to fend off regulation. so what they decided to do was
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assemble a group of experts from around the world. there are about 20 of us so far. people with human rights background, journalism background, legal background. we come together, our main role is to adjudicate cases. so if content is left up on the platform and people find it objectionable, think it breaks facebook's rules, we can view that. or content is taken undo and people protest and say hey, why was that picture objected to? we can review that and render a decision. we really scrutinized how facebook came to a judgment. of course, over the last couple of months we've seen the cases are sort of the tip of the iceberg when it comes to overnight and responsibility of facebook. >> this was from your froifrt that just came out this week that found people don't know why they're getting banned, why they're getting content taken down, that a lot of users are in the dark when they're moderated or affected by facebook. that seems like a big problem you're flagging among other problems? >> absolutely. you don't get a coherent answer
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as to what rule you supposedly broken, what exactly in your post violated that rule, what, if anything, you can do to remediate it? it's almost impossible to get a human being on the line to ask a question. facebook treats individuals as users, not customers. so there's no customer service that we're attuned to in other industries where there's recourse, there's a website, there's a chat bot at least and you can escalate it to a human being if it's a serious subject. >> correct me if i'm wrong, that begins with the customersers. >> that's right, it's the users generating the profitability of the business and that's part of the culture shift that i think is necessary here. they've got to do more to police hatred vitriol and bullying on the platform and we are seeing that come out through space on all of these revelations. at the same time my background free expression, ceo of pet america by today, i don't want facebook to just wipe content out without any explanation. i want people to have a recourse
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if they believe their ability to express themselves has been unjustifiably impaired, they ought to have somewhere to go to be get an answer to resolve it if it was done without a basis. >> what are you expecting to learn from these papers? are we at the point where there is still more to know about what's going on inside facebook? or are we at the point, suzanne, where everyone sees the problem but wep can the figure out what you to do about it? >> yes, the revelations are beginning to have a repetitive be quality there. >> little bit. >> hand-wringing staffers saying this is terrible what happened in india or sri lanka or myanmar or right here in the united states of america, we could have done more. here are the tools and techniques and here's what we knew at the time about what was going wrong. what we're trying to do as a board is use the authority, power, relationship that we have with facebook to press for more transparency, really dig into some of these systems, like the cross-check system that they have for a large account where
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just added scrutiny is given when there's content that is flagged for a takedown. >> what you mean is if you're a celebrity, you can get away with this? >> seems to me. that is not what they say about it but it seems at least, in some cases, the in effect so-called white listing where nothing gets taken down, not because the content is not violating but perhaps because of the identity of the poster. >> you're calling oppo saying there's a lot more to be said about that and a lot more to learn. >> very much so and that's why we're trying to use the authority and responsibility we have. >> suzanne, thank you very much for being here. coming back after the break, take a trip with us down a youtube rabbit hole. and later from school board meetings to congressional hearings, what's going wrong on the education beat.
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it's like hearing a broken
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record repeating and repeating, playing the same tune until you can't get it out of your head. youtube is that good or that bad at locking people into echo chambers. a group called tech transparency project is releasing a new study today that's all about this. it says the echo chamber problem is worse in fox of america. they're a nonpartisan wash dog group funded by people like fred newmark. looking at how fox recommended how often and how many and found a real disparity. look on screen. i asked the group's director about this, katie paul, and here's what she said about the findings. >> one of the major differences we found between right wing content on youtube and left wing content on youtube is the fox viewer never broke out of the fox lead while the youtube eventually sorted up mixed videos to the msnbc viewer, including quite a bit of fox. >> this is an issue across the
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tech ecos sphere. twitter saying they use more right wing content than content from left wing sources. is that because right wing sources are catchier, better going viral? supported by a stronger media machine or are the algorithms favoring the right? paula points out it doesn't have to be this way. >> there are ways for platforms like youtube to kbatz these filter bubbles. youtube players, for instance, stop the auto play feature for ail go rhythmically expected videos. this can be used to be sure people aren't being towards radicalized content. >> ultimately she said the business model is about maximizing time on site, keeping people online as long as possible, it's hard to imagine anything changing. i'm joipd by fill up bump, journalist and host of the run
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tell this podcast, severe severe and cnn senior media reporter darcy. welcome to you all. and this is something that's been emerging for years, right? not only are these echo chambers insidious but louder on one side than the other? >> right. and i don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone, including folks at youtube, their recommendation algorithm is really a radicalization machine. the question is what are they going to do good this problem? it's one thing to recommend puppy videos to somebody interested in dogs but totally a different thing to send someone down a rabbit hole where they're seeing misinformation, extremist or political rhetoric, et cetera, et cetera. so the question for youtube and for all of these social media companies, facebook, youtube or twitter, what are they going to do to solve this issue? i don't think we've heard a real great solution or answer yet. >> and tech platforms say, and i think it's fair to say, cable
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news has the same problem, virtual news the same problem. if you're watching videos on fox, republican the just watching fox news? isn't it true our virtual houses are not clean he even as we talk about big tech? >> yes, the right wing media has always performed well. you can look at talk radio and see how astra notically successful they've been there. and not just that, podcasts, you look at the apple charts, the top-performing news podcasts are almost all on the right. but now you have the algorithm that's essentially putting a thumb on the scale, putting weight to assist them in growing audiences. even if you have extremist views or your views are considered fringe, you know how the algorithm to keep people on the site as long as possible and the best way to do that is bring up these deep emotional responses. and that is what is tilting the balance. that's what's different. people's personal views are not affecting television programming but they are affecting what they see on youtube. >> and it's about feelings over
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facts so observe. so a new entry into the world this week. donald trump announcing truth social, this business venture he has where he's getting a new infusion of cash and launching a media operation that looks just like twitter. he also said it's going to launch a media platform, maybe make tv shows. the big news, philip, he's going to launch a version of twitter. he says he's doing it. raising a lot of money doing it, a lot of trump fans buy into his stock. should the press take this seriously? >> we can't not take it seriously because this is essentially donald trump reinstating his direct to the pipeline communication with his base, which is how he was able to gain power in 2015/2016. but what's truth in social media part of what we haven't talked about yet is the right is very good at policing technology in media companies as well. they're good at saying you're cracking down too hard and need to scale it back. that's causing twitter and facebook to say, okay, we need
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to change what we're doing because we don't want to silence the voices yelling at us the loudest. so basically p electric's platform allows him to say hey, this is the play where you not twitter the way facebook and twitter and creates make america great again and elevates this idea you can say whatever you want to say and go back to the old times when the rules didn't apply and that's what's prompting trump and his platform. >> what about you? >> a lot of people can discredit this. >> a lot of people have. >> it's easy to dismiss as a joke because donald trump, arguably has not created a success brings. running a social media platform is not an easy business. however, that would be as much of a mistake as discounting his candidacy for presidency and we all saw that was something that should have been taken seriously. and there's a lot of potential here. you have a man who's the de facto leader of 75 million americans who feel very strongly about him, very strong about their freedoms and very upet set
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about the fact these been kicked off these platforms and him having a direct tie to his audience that no one can police is a very, very scary thought. >> where do we end up, oliver? a year from now if he launches this thing, where are we going to be? one america, two different worlds, split right down, no overlap at all? >> if it succeeds perhaps you see more of a splintering of the information -- >> you're skeptical. you said if he succeeds. >> i have a hard -- this is coming from the person who couldn't even run a successful blog for more than a month. >> that's fair. >> this has been tried time and time again. there are a lot of people who put a lot of money into trying to create a right wing social media platform and they really have not succeeded so far. i am, i would say, in the skeptical camp here. but if anyone can do it, maybe it's the 230r78er frez. he has a big built-in base. right when it was launched, it was immediately hacked in the space. so i'm in the skeptical category.
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if he does launch it, i think it will really again just splinter the economy further. >> when he said he's going to launch tv shows, i thought that exists. it's called fox news. trump tv exists, newsmax media. it's a crowded market, don't you find that, philip? this is a very crowded space. >> it is. i'm curious, there's always going to be an appetite for things that people want to hear. part of the reason facebook is so successful because people hear the things they want and then they can share that with other people as well. it's not just the algorithm but people consciously choosing to share these things. donald trump in these media spaces allows him to inject more stuff and people can amplify. he's very frustrating. i like to refer to this as the vertigo movement, jimmy stewart movie where he lost his first love, twitter, and now he's re-creating twitter because he's desperate to be back in the conversation. if nothing else, he will certainly have the direct pipeline, which can be
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problematic. >> all of the talk about facebook and youtube and how all of these platforms are hurting society, makes they thing if facebook didn't exist, bookface would exit. if twitter didn't exist, bitter would exist. trump will make its own platform, maybe the issue is not entirely the site but ourselves, is that fair? we got to look inward, some of this is about ourselves? all right. up next here on the program, everybody's coming back to talk about the dangers of both ciderism. veteran reporter jackie calmes will join me. and what the press gets wrong when it comes attempts to cover in washington.
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welcome back to "reliable sources." i'm brian stelter. a thought-provoking column in "the los angeles times" recently, let me show you the headline, journalists are failing the public with both-siderism in political coverage. the author of that column is a veteran journalist who spent many years at the "the new york times" and now at "the l.a. times," jackie calmes and she's here with me now. jackie, good to see you. i want to dive right in to what both-siderism is? is it we're treating the democrats and republicans equally and ignoring the heart of radicalism, is that part of the problem? >> in a sense. there's no question that journalists are recognizing the radicalization of the republican party. i think what's changed a little bit since trump left office, there's more of a sense that maybe we're back to normal.
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but it is, you know, this is not a new problem or a new dynamic. i first started to chase -- you mentioned i was at, no and for ten years before that i was at "the wall street journal." >> yes. >> i have never done my job, more than a quarter century, i have never done my job or did as a reporter any differently at both papers, even though the journal is known as a conservative paper, "the new york times" liberal paper. they both gave news the same way, which was fact-based, and i tried to always -- i think i'm a very fair reporter and give both sides of the story. but what started to happen back in the mid-'90s with the takeover of the house by house republicans and in particular newt gingrich was a new, nasty -- i mean, his byword was be nasty and norm-busting and
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obstructionist sort of governance. you couldn't really call it governance that sort of was a precursor or trump. and, you know, when both sides were sort of to be simplistic about it, you say well, you reported something that's somewhat critical of republicans, then you sort of have to say something along the lines of, well, both sides do it. democrats are guilty as well. for years, that was sort of simplistically, that was -- i was able to do that and everyone else was able to do that. but by increasingly from 1995 on, no, it was asymmetric as the political scientists call it and it was more descriptive of republicans than democrats. >> and you cover this in your book "dissent" showing, it's called "dissent" but it's also the descent of the gop. >> it is. >> with that in mind, you say reporters are starting to get it, you get more to this.
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i think reporters are getting it right more often but that causes alienation and causes republican readers to just dismiss all of the coverage. so this is a vicious cycle. where do you see us going, jackie? >> it is difficult. i have to say some of the response i got that was critical to that column suggested that i was saying we shouldn't be objective anymore, we shouldn't be fair and balanced. of course we should. i just think an objective and fact-based treatment of the news often means you can't report something that republicans are doing without -- and suggest that this is indicative of a broad or more general problem in our politics without being clearer somehow that, no, this is peculiar to republicans, this is the nature of the republican party. and i think it's rooted in a dynamic in which the republican party, which at the beginning of my career probably was a small
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government party, styled itself that way, is also an anti-government party. and which means it doesn't really care if government works well, and, in fact, when there's a democrat as president, they do their darndest to make sure government doesn't work well because they that i that resounds to them politically. so i just think the one thing that made me write that column is a sense that there has been, like i said at the outset, people feeling like well, without trump in the picture, we're sort of back to normal, and in fact we're not. trump still runs the party. the republicans in congress still march to his beat. and he, himself, is very much still in the picture and could conceivably be president again someday. >> it's a present tense story, it's not a past tense story, i
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totally agree. jackie, thank you so much for coming on. >> thank you. thanks, brian. up next, why journalism alone is not enough to explain belief in the big lie, belief in vaccine lies. we're going to get into the psychology in a moment. my patients are able to have that quality of life back. i recommend sensodyne repair and protect with deep repair. ♪ you pour your heart into everything you do, which is a lot. so take care of that heart with lipton. because sippin' on unsweetened lipton can help support a healthy heart. lipton. stop chuggin'. start sippin'. woman: i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are getting clearer ♪ ♪ yeah i feel free ♪ ♪ to bare my skin, yeah that's all me. ♪ ♪ nothing and me go hand in hand ♪ ♪ nothing on my skin that's my new plan. ♪ ♪ nothing is everything. ♪ woman: keep your skin clearer with skyrizi. most who achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months
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lies and vaccine lies related? why are they connected? why is there so much overlap between folks who think president biden lost and folks who think covid vaccines are a threat? i increasingly think the answers lie not in political analysis but in psychology. we need to be booking more psychologists on television. so we decided to do that today. let me bring in javin bavel, professor of college and science at newark university and author of the book "the power of us." i have been wondering, why is there a big identity between the big lie and vaccines for us?
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>> when you identify with a party or leader, you believe information shared by that leader and fellow party members, and that becomes your belief system. that could mean elections, vaccines, pandemic or any number of issues. >> so it all becomes it's really led by that leader, hence the work leader. you wrote this in march 2020. let's puts this on screen. you wrote for "the washington post," in a pandemic political polarization could kill people. this was like week two of the great shutdown. this was the very beginning of everything going downhill. do you read that now and think i have never been so angry about being white? what is that like? you called it, you saw it coming. you said people are going to die if we polarize and it's happened. >> we're now over 700,000 people died in the pandemic and big risk factor that's a problem in the u.s. more than any other countries is polarization. other countries who have handled it well, like new zealand, have rallied together around a common identity. you look across the border north
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to canada, they're polarized but they didn't polar iz 00 the pandemic. so leaders from conservative party and liberal party fed rhetoric online and media and social media were similar so people across the political spectrum in canada believed in the seriousness in the pandemic and did the right thing. >> but be able to see it coming and not be able to stop it, is there frustration there? >> yes, incredibly frustrating. we can study these things in the lab or field as much as we want, but if political leadership isn't there to do the right thing and compel people to believe what the science is telling people, then we're at a loss. >> i want to show you something that comes from the realm of comedy but may have a serious point. this is from the daily show from, he's been going to rallies, went to one and interviewed a bunch of people. he came back with some so shocking, you hope it was a joke and these people were edited out of context, you hope they didn't say what they said, but here, just watch. >> antifa, like the corrupt fbi,
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basically rhino politicians, deep state, all of that. >> i don't believe it's people like me and people that you see over there in that crowd who did it. >> who was it? >> fbi, cia, antifa were used. >> who is running the government right now? >> president trump. >> so who is running the government right now? president trump. when you hear that, first of all, let's hope it's just comedy, but there's something real there. we know there's something real there in the country. is that all about identity? do we explain these delusions just through people's identity? >> identity is part of it, right, so that's a psychological piece but it's what universe of information people live in that interacts with their identity. so if they're hearing misinformation from the news sources they tune into, from the people they follow on social media, from their local community leaders and peers, then they're going to be misled into believing all kinds of misinformation, lies and conspiracy theories. >> do you see delusion is a fair word to be using at this point when it comes to people who
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believe the election was stolen or trump was still president? >> i mean, it's not a clinical delusion so these are people in theory who wouldn't need like clinical help, they just need social support. they need people in their social environment to give them accurate information. >> i so often think this is about social trust or lack of social trust. people alienated from institutions or society, they go down these identity rabbit holes. what does research show us in psychology about bringing people back up out of them in. >> that's where it gets tough. one of the reasons, there's research on, for example, people in cults. so we can think of hard-core cults, people real kplited to eye certain belief, and what they found is when the beliefness is falsified, people feel a certain amount of dismissiveness, i stick with the people i care about and trust or accept it's false and completely move or and start another life elsewhere. that's incredibly challenging for people. so when this happens in doomsday
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cults, when their prophecies fail, they will stick to the system and oftentimes to proselytize it and convince other people to join it because they have to rationalize the fact they're that committed to it. >> we're not ending on an optimistic note, are we professor? >> no, no. >> but that's the reality of it. thank you for coming on. coming up -- we will dissect something. you may have heard about it, doj called domestic terrorists? where did that come from? we have answers next. mission control, we are go for launch. ♪ t-minus two minutes and counting. ♪ um, she's eating the rocket. -copy that, she's eating the rocket. i assume we needed that? [chomping sound]
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so let's look at how a narrative is born. the narrative is that the government is targeting american parents as domgs terrorists. scary. where did this come from and why? pandemic school close yours sparked a level of activism at school 3w50rd meetings. at the same time a conservative media crew aed against critical race theory spurred local concerns and conflicts in a new wave of book banning. many eruptions were authentic. sleepy school board meeting rooms have become battlegrounds with local disputes turning to national news driven by fox news. that's the context for what came next. the national school board association pleading for help, saying educators need help dealing with the growing number of threats of acts of violence
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and intimidation. school boards want to hear from parents they said. this letter said some of the threats could be the equivalent to the form of domestic terrorism. there was the t word. within days attorney general merrick garland addressed the doj to investigate. criminal conduct, not parents shouting at school board meetings. that letter has triggered weeks and weeks of content. as family stand up against -- on fox news you heard the phrase domestic terrorist dozens of times. obviously the biden doj never said it. it was the school board association that kind of sort of said it in a letter about serious threats, not about parents exercising their rights. but that's how a narrative is born. flash forward to the day garland testified on capitol hill. many of the gop lawmakers
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sounded like fox talking heads. watch. >> they may be domestic terrorists. >> domestic terrorists. >> an act of domestic terrorists. >> are we domestic terrorists? >> no. >> no, no, of course not, but this is how a narrative is form. it's how it spreads. it's why the ag had to react. this weekend there's breaking news about this. let me bring the panel back. philip bump, mara schiavocampo are with me. you wrote about how the issue of schools, education has become so high profile in the right, this is a winning issue in right wing media. >> it's really important. i'm glad you brought in the legislators echoing what they heard on fox news. monmouth polling showed a spike of education and what kids are learning in school which is a critical bellwether for next
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year. your context was exactly right, this is not about parents, but it is about people making violent threats against mostly volunteer school administrative officials. we've seen, since the start of the trump era, this weird conflation on the right of people being accused of -- it started with deplorables. >> the racists are deplorable and then everyone called themselves deplorable. >> exactly. this victimization fox news helps amp phi. >> january 6th a great example. oliver, national askeschool boa backed off, said we shouldn't have used that language. is that a win for fox? what does this mean? >> i'm not sure it's a win for fox. >> it is more content though. >> it is more content. i think it's really important to
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point out in the segment that fox news coverage, this right wing media coverage led to important time with the attorney general this past week being basically wasted as the lawmakers play to the cameras. they know the biden doj is not targeting school board parents at domestic terrorists, but the audience believes that. you have the attorney general, an important guy in front of him, and there are a lot of serious questions to ask him. instead, they totally waste their time playing to cameras because they know this is airing on fox and will go viral and earn them political points. that is really one of the side effects of this information economy. >> right. mara, it occurs to me this is about education, it's about people being afraid of what is taught. it's almost like an anti education beat. >> we see the same things with the conversations about critical race theory. the issue is they're completely divorce friday reality. you have people saying to ban
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critical race theory when nobody was teaching it. fox needs these narratives of it's us against the government, us against these major school board shifts. domestic terrorism is unlawful persecution for political purposes, which fits a lot of these situations. they backed it up with pages of specific threats to them. i feel like they had to back up because of the optics of it. it didn't look good to call parents domestic terrorists. they were talking about violent threats, not just people being upset. it's this narrative being create thad is not based on your reality. >> to your point, there's something real going on and there are real threats happening, and then there's a distraction from that and we end up talking about something that's not really happening. that's the upside down. thank you, panel. thank you very much. that's all here on television. we'll join you online tonight
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deal or no deal. democrats scale back their plans for the social safety net. >> we will have an agreement that we will pass both houses. >> the latest on what the bill will do and how democrat will pay for it. i will speak exclusively with house speaker pelosi next. americans worked about

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