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tv   Cuomo Prime Time  CNN  October 7, 2021 6:00pm-7:00pm PDT

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will do anything to hide. one guy is literally in hiding. dan scavino and now cnn has learned trump may try to block the january 6 committee from getting information from those subpoenaed. lie, deny, and now defy. remember, we define that as the triple play of trumpery. according to "the washington post" a trump attorney instructed his former advisers not to comply with congressional investigators and with good reason. they clearly may have damaging information. the senate judiciary committee just made that obvious in a new report about january 6th titled "subverting justice." nearly 400 pages and they have the receipts. we'll give you some of the biggest headlines tonight but i argue that the obvious headlines about the main report aren't the real thing to focus on. the rebuttal from the gop is what you must look at.
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why? because those who empowered this, ignored it, also empowered it, but all of them collectively. they are still in power and the rebuttal is proof that the big lie will not die. in their defense of trump you don't just see a disservice to justice but clear proof they are in service to him and his lies about the election. starting with their defense. trump didn't do anything wrong because the coup didn't happen. this is the same lame defense, the same people gave trump on that ukraine shakedown. well, ukraine didn't comply with putting out dirt on biden to get the meeting and other goodies from trump and the united states government so no harm. you know an act does not have to be completed for there to be a crime. >> right? a crime can be incomplete.
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aka attempted. for example, if i try to rob you but i fail, it's not okay. we all get this. and so do trump's defenders. but this is not about logic. ranking member chuck grassley's office put out this report, the president pro tempore emeritus of the senate defending trump's coup attempt multiple times as, ready? not unreasonable. do you think they would therefore offer what was a reasonable basis for him to question the election let alone try to overturn it? they don't. but again, this is not about logic. the proof of grassley's per fid bad faith is clear from the past. after the capitol attack senator grassley said this. the courts didn't back up trump's claims. he belittled and harassed
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elected officials across the country to get his way. he encouraged his own loyal vice president mike pence to take extraordinary and un-constitutional actions. but now? his coup attempt was not unreasonable? what changed? the threat of trump to him. nice and slow because that's all it is. okay? the problem therefore is not trump being out of power as president. it is all of those still in power who are worried about his reach and his base and their complicity in helping to keep the big lie alive. the grahams, the cruzs, mccarthys, hawley, jordan, yes, mitch mcconnell. and don't forget 147 in the
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trump party in congress that backed the attempted overthrow of democracy by wanting to decertify the election with no good basis. the rebuttal report is the focus. that and the silence from those not involved with the rebuttal about its lameness because that is just as poisonous. i'm telling you the big lie could come back and be played exactly the same way in the midterms. so here is what the democrat led judiciary committee is hoping to expose to highlight what happened and therefore maybe do something about it. trump asked the doj nine times after the election to undermine the election result. nine times. not just take a look. not just, hey, have you seen this really obvious piece of proof? it's just, do something. do something. and they have the receipts. he considered replacing then
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acting ag rosen with doj lawyer clark who supported his fraud conspiracies. then white house counsel pat cipollone threatened to quit if the president replaced rosen with clark calling a letter trump and clark wanted to send to georgia officials a, quote, murder-suicide pact. and then chief of staff mark meadows made, quote, multiple, unquote requests for acting a.g. rosen to launch election fraud probes. again, he was pressuring him to do it not offering him information or sources that would lead to his own decisions. you see the difference? here is a picture put in the report of a new year's eve meeting where trump was threatening justice department leaders to overthrow democracy for him. just three days later, three days before the january 6th insurrection there was another
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meeting and according to the acting ag trump opened by saying, quote, one thing we know is, you, rosen, aren't going to do anything to overturn the election. unquote. and yet the defense in the rebuttal, trump did not use the justice department to overturn the election. meaning it's okay because he didn't succeed. and these people see nothing wrong with the clear proof that he tried to and had his people try to. at least nine times. all they're missing in their rebuttal with this is, remember this line, it isn't illegal when the president does it. that's the only thing they're missing from the nixon cover up playbook. you know, nixon didn't have this power in his own party. he didn't have these kinds of people in power worried about
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him and his base going forward. trump does. what will they do next? let's ask a member of the senate judiciary committee, senator from delaware, good to see you. >> good to be on with you, chris. it's been quite a day in the senate. >> every day is a month's worth of drama. let's start with what just happened. the republicans voted to end cloture but none voted to raise the debt ceiling. they left that to the democrats and you passed it on a party line vote 50-48. i don't know what happened to the other two. what does that tell you about your future? >> it means unfortunately that we will be right back here in two months needing another vote configured exactly like tonight's vote in order to raise or suspend the debt ceiling going forward. chris, i frankly think part of what happened was mitch mcconnell became convinced he
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was playing this dangerous game of chicken too close to the line and there was a lot of passion in the democratic caucases about simply ending the rule that requires a margin for the debt ceiling and frankly he caved. >> why when he knows joe manchin wouldn't do it? >> i suspect he had a conversation with senator manchin and sinema where they expressed alarm, concern, and possibly even willingness to change that rule. i don't know. i wasn't in the room. my sense is that is what ultimately moved him to act. here is what it gets us. two months when we can focus on passing president biden's build back better agenda. two months when we can come to an agreement about how to get the bipartisan infrastructure bill and how to get this critical, i hope, more than $2 trillion package of investments in elder care, daycare, child care, early childhood support, making health care less expensive, providing a
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tax cut to america's middle class, and making it all paid for by ensuring the wealthiest americans and our most profitable companies pay their fair share. that is roughly the build back better agenda that we hope to get through the house and senate and to the president's desk including some robust action on climate. we now have the time and the space to finish those negotiations and get that done before we have to turn to our end of year appropriations, continuing to pay for the government to stay open, and another vote on the debt ceiling. i hope we take this window and get this work done. >> small point. then two big points. the small point, we had heard you were trying to get it done by the end of october. do you think that is unreasonable? >> it is possible. that is when the surface transportation bill expires. and so it would make sense for us to finish the work on build back better and on the infrastructure bill and get them to the president's desk.
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but frankly it means we've got two members of my caucus who need to be really clear about what they're willing to support and not and then let our committee chairs get to work right sizing this bill to fit within the agenda of what we'll be able to pass. >> statement against interest. i want to know every detail of how you guys talk among yourselves and the strife and haggling. however, tactically, is there any lesson being learned on the democratic fold about how bad this looks that you guys can't make a deal with yourselves? >> yes. i think it is very clear. within our caucus that we have the pen. we have the opportunity to take bold action that is going to help tens of millions of american families and the fact that it's been dragging on for weeks and that there are some internal disagreements about how big the package should be and how bold it can be distracts from the fact that folks are
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eager for us to get it done and move forward. the elements of this plan are widely popular. polling shows the american people think we should invest in things like paid family leave. >> yeah. >> high quality daycare, reducing the cost of health care, making it easier for folks to get back to work, and for families to afford the things that keep them up at night. so we need to get busy and get this done but we have a few key disagreements we need to get past first >> i had a caller on my radio show say only the democrats would fight with themselves to not get done something american people from both sides of the aisle want done. let that be a clue to you. one other big policyish yow in terms of getting this done. what is coming out from the former president and his people and that rebuttal to the senate judiciary report has one clear message. we don't care and we are on
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board with the big lie. while you guys are arguing over how much money to put in this plan how worried are you that your mid-term elections are marred before they begin? that any race they don't like they'll say is rigged and half the country is ready to believe it? >> chris, that is one of the ways in which i see our democracy steadily being undermined from within. by republicans who know better being willing to stay onboard with president trump, former president trump's big lie about the 2020 election. even bill barr, his incredibly loyal former attorney general, has in print said that he knew that the claims of fraud in the election were bs and what you're seeing today in this report from the senate judiciary committee is that president trump didn't try to inappropriately muscle the acting leader of the department of justice into buying into his fraud claims about the election once not
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twice not three times -- nine times. if it hadn't been for a few folks like pat cipollone who refused to go along with this, we might have had a different outcome. we came very, very close to a terrible and tragic outcome to the election in 2020 and you are absolutely right. the midterms of 2022 i think we'll see false claims of election fraud widespread throughout the country that undermines the strength of our elections and credibility of our democracy. >> thank you very much for your insight into the goings-on and people's business. appreciate you. >> thank you, chris. let's go deeper into this. executive privilege. what does it mean if trump asserts that? we have a former impeachment counsel to take us through the dos and don'ts when it comes to executive privilege and what the options are in getting past the wall of silence in trump world, next. mutual.
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this is deadline night for the first round of trumpers to decide if they will do what the law compels them to and comply with subpoenas from the january 6th select committee. "the washington post" is reporting trump's lawyers don't want his former aides to comply. that is not unusual. the question is, what are you willing to do? do you want to fight the subpoena? okay. but what if you want to play games? what if you want to do worse? let's take it to a better mind. counselor, welcome back. >> thanks for having me back, chris. >> so quickly, the obvious route is i don't like the subpoena. i don't think you have a legitimate reason to send it to me. i'll fight to quash it in court. that hasn't been done yet. dan scavino is hiding so they can't personally serve him as if personal service were necessary here which it isn't. the idea of executive privilege, will that end any chance to
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inquire of these men about these events? >> chris, i do not think executive privilege is going to provide the shelter that according to "the post" trump and his lawyers are seeking in informing these men that executive privilege applies and they shouldn't cooperate. let me tell you why. it is based on my experience litigating these issues fighting with trump on these issues as special counsel in the impeachment, the first impeachment. executive privilege belongs to the president of the united states. the courts have said in the nixon case that the privilege is the property of the nation. we only have one president at a time. so trump was able when he was in office to tie people in knots. now it is not your father's white house or justice
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department and whether trump goes to court or congress pursues civil or criminal contempt, these executive privilege claims are not going to hold water. >> so okay. if that's not going to happen then they're going to come in and talk but they're going to limit what they say as best they can and they'll be coached. then you have what we saw in the rebuttal which is that the republicans -- i'm telling you i've never seen anything like that rebuttal before. i know this story is the main report, the nine times he tried to use doj. that rebuttal would never make it through a law school class for any kind of moot court situation. they basically say, well he didn't succeed at any of this. what is the big deal? he didn't use the doj. he just tried. this coup attempt wasn't unreasonable. just think of the words, norm.
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the president's coup attempt wasn't unreasonable. in america? >> chris, the big lie is bad enough when trump and his ex-white house cronies purr vey it but when that cancer of falsehood invades the senate, the world's greatest deliberative body i wrote down what this minority report said because it turns reality on its head. president trump did not exert improper influence on doj? his concerns centered on legitimate complaints and reports of crimes? i filed two ethics complaints this week against the other insurrection lawyers including mr. clark, who is so prominent in this complaint, and mr. eastman out in california. if any lawyer dared to file
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these statements in court what this minority has put in the report they would immediately be subject to investigation, sanctions, and potentially losing their license. it's outrageous and dangerous for our country when this cancer of deceit has crept into the minority in the senate. >> all you have to do is look at what they do in terms of attaching the proof of these legitimate complaints and claims and it gets shaky really fast. i tell you what it is the best indication the big lie is not going away, norm, at all. i appreciate you taking us through this first step. let's see what happens once woe get into it. i will call on your counsel once again. be well until. >> thanks, chris. >> all right. another case that has us stymied. the homicide case of gabby petito. we have new information on when police had eyes on her missing fiance but a question also. if they had eyes on him how did they let him get away?
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brian laundrie's father joined investigators in the search at a florida reserve. i thought nobody had asked him to help. i tell you, finding officials who are just straight with you these days is really at a premium. okay? we also have a survivalist. what would it take to live in this reserve for as long as it's been so far? what kind of place is it? what do you need to know or have? right? he knows. next. and that's just basic wavy guy maintenance, right? next up, carvana.
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a couple developments and then some insight into the big question of the unknown right now. in terms of the gabby petito case. northport, florida police are defending themselves against criticism they let brian laundrie get away. a spokesman tells cnn laundrie was under surveillance before he vanished but says officers were limited in how much they could act. brian disappeared three weeks ago. would surveillance or nonsurveillance preclude officers from going where any citizen goes? the answer is no. they could have followed. they could follow you somewhere. if they have a reason to or even if they don't have a reason to. they're not going to do anything to you. if they're just watching
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somebody, and they leave and go to the reserve, why didn't they go to the reserve? we're not allowed to do that? says who? please show us. so three weeks ago this happens before there was an open homicide investigation. at that time petito's body has not yet been found. here is what the police spokesman told randi kaye. >> if you talk to a lot of people who have experience in law enforcement, i mean, the guy goes for a walk in the carlton reserve. he is not wanted for a crime. what are we supposed to do? we're going to go treat a tree, following him back through the woods? i mean, you know, it just wasn't there with the information we had in this case. >> i don't disagree. i don't disagree. i don't think they had reasonable suspicion. they didn't even know that gabby petito was dead.
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so was it fair to say they lost him? no. i don't think it's fair to say they lost him. he wasn't a wanted man. he is now. the spokesman also says police are not in possession of the cell phone brian laundrie was using on his road trip with gabby and they don't have her phone either. does that mean the feds don't? one of the problems in this situation is you have local cops and then you have the feds. for example, one of these problems with the laundrie family, the family is going to have trouble. all right? certainly in a court of public opinion. we'll see if there is any legal exposure. but the cops didn't know that brian was gone until the 17th. okay. that's a long time. because he was gone since like the 13th. but the feds did. now, why didn't they tell the cops? i don't know. but that's not on the laundrie family. if the family is in contact with the feds and they tell them, hey, the kid didn't come home, is it their fault the cops don't
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know? meanwhile, brian laundrie's father local cops were saying nobody has asked him for the family of the wanted guy, we don't want his help. he was there today. he took part in the search for his son. they asked him, do unthe routes brian liked in the reserve? he said yeah. so they went and met him at the carlton reserve. his parents believe that is where this guy is. i know i keep calling him a kid. it's just because i'm old. i know he is a man and should be treated as a man under the law. no question about that. we keep glossing over the fact this guy has been in the jungle basically for weeks. is that do-able? the founder of mountain scout survival school, it's good to have you. appreciate you. i should have had you sooner. people who know him and who know hiking say he is a hiker. he is a good hiker. he is a trained hiker and
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camper. they say he is not a survivalist. what is the difference when it comes to the context of trying to figure out if he could still be alive in there? >> that is a great question, chris. being a hiker you're usually dependent on your gear. he is carrying a backpack, we don't know what's in it. we don't know what kind of supplies he already has or what he started with. when was the last time he had food or water. how much does he have before he runs out and has to replenish it. so a hiker usually carries things in with them. a camper and that type of deal. when it comes to survivalists this is the idea of not having those things and utilizing the resources already available on the landscape. now, his sister i believe was quoted as saying he is a moderate survivalist. he is decent but not an expert. even that can sustain somebody and certainly in that climate you're not dealing with the harshness of the north here as
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seasons change. he still has a lot of resources he can tap into. >> help me understand that. because to someone like me i'm not into that. i feel like i'd be a dead man. >> sure. >> as soon as it got dark. i would step into some water with an alligator or snake or eat the wrong thing. what does he have access to if he is what his sister termed a mediocre survivalist? >> well, that would tell me he has decent concepts in terms of shelter. there's plenty of water down there. i don't know what kind of gear or what he has in his backpack. i'm going to assume he does have something because he is a hiker and backpacker and normally they carry gear. he has water location and purification to deal with, fire. you don't necessarily need it because it is not a cold climate. food, there is plenty of fish, snake, yeah, gators. he could be on the menu as well. but there is plenty of resource
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there. the other thing to remember is even though this is a preserve surrounding the preserve there are seasonal homes and things that could be vacant. there is no reason why like spokes on a wheel he can't be coming in and out of urban environments without anybody knowing this and still resupplying and going back into the reserve. a survivalist doesn't have to do that. they can stay indefinitely on the landscape because everything you need is already there. i don't believe this is the type of person we're dealing with. >> so even if it isn't the type meaning that he could do it by himself you are saying he doesn't have to because though to us we look at it as wilderness there are opportunities for him especially if he knows the reserve which according to his family he does. thank you very much. when we learn more, about what they think they're seeing or finding, please come back and give us some context because i don't know what the heck i'm talking about. good to have you. >> my pleasure. >> we have good news to report
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so the former fda commissioner scott gotleib says the end is finally near. the covid pandemic may soon be over. the u.s. surgeon general however isn't ready to make any big pronouncements yet. here we go with messaging again. he tells cnn he is cautiously optimistic. listen. >> we'll have hopefully a vaccine available for children and at some point before the end of the year probably will have the orally available drug from merck if things go well and that undergoes a favorable review. those two things are going to be sort of the book end i think on the sort of pandemic phase of this virus and we'll be entering the more endemic phase.
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>> certainly a move in the right direction. if we have good vaccines and oral medicines and use masks when we need them we'll be in good shape against covid-19. >> until we aren't. is that going to be another iteration of the same kind of it's good until it isn't situation? how optimistic should we be? more vaccines? more antivirals? people going to take them? right? if approved for kids will reasonable parents feel safe about it? will unreasonable parents keep their kids from it? our top doctor sanjay gupta is here to discuss that and much more including his new book "world war c, lessons from the covid-19 pandemic, and how to prepare for the next one." yes, amen. for finally taking us through what should have been done, which was done in a movie ten plus years ago which is it's coming. be ready. congratulations on the book. i'm sure it is going to be a big hit because what you say is well
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researched and well reasoned. >> thank you. >> now you feeling good about pfizer putting this in and the merck pill? do you believe this is the added tools we need? >> yeah. those are important tools. what i feel best about, chris, though, is the fact that the numbers are all coming down. in medicine you give a treatment and then you may get another scan to see if the tumor is sh rifr shrinking or not. in this case because the numbers are coming down apply the same metaphor. all these things, the amount of vaccination, natural immunity occurring because so many people are getting infected, these other things, these other things on the horizon in terms of getting more kids vaccinated, all of that makes a difference but the fact the treatment appears to be working right now is good. i want to show you one thing. everyone says winter is coming and that is when it all gets worse. so i look back at the last two
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pandemics. 2009, 1918. it is really interesting because it was right around this time that you had the significant surge. this time of the year. then in 2009 once the numbers started to come down they stayed down. this is south korea. not the right graphic. after the numbers started to come down they stayed down. same thing happened in 1918. there was a little surge back again february or march of that year. but what you found was that enough people had immunity really by this time in the pandemic that you started to have the cases and hospitalizations come down at this point and not really have a significant surge back. that is the key i think. it happened before and i think it can happen again. >> so even without the vaccine, and the merck pill, do you believe it's worked its way through? or are we still vulnerable to the variant that comes next if the thing is allowed to keep replicating? >> we're looking at all these variants making its way through
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the greek alphabet. delta, then lamda, mu. there are some that look a little more concerning than others just based on the characteristics of the virus. when i talk to these virologists and i have talked to some arountd world they're not as worried about those as delta. delta was a bad one. we know that. very contagious the way that particular virus rearranged itself. it was a problem. right now there's others that are always going to be on the horizon but not of huge concern. what we do see is the immunity that you have right now from the vaccinations or natural immunity should offer at least some protection against what is coming down the pike. >> we saw the studies at israel and somewhere else that it is waning but still 90% against hospitalizations and deaths. pretty good. to the book. "world war c." catchy. now, why did you want to write this book especially with the
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emphasis of preparing for the next one when you know we never prepare for anything? >> that is a good point and part of the reason for the book. according to the pandemic preparedness index the united states was the best prepared country in the world for this pandemic. as you know and i am not saying this to make anybody feel bad we did among the worst. 4% of the world's population we had 20% to 25% of the cases and hospitalizations and deaths. those things were terrible here. what happened? how do you model for human behavior? two things. there are lots of different ideas i came across and put into the book. we don't think of pandemics as we think of defense. we spend a lot of money on keeping ourselves safe from potential attacks from a defense standpoint. we treat pandemics like potential weather events, preordained, powerless. it's not true. there are things we can do and even going back to 2004 we had a pandemic preparedness plan in this country we let wither away. as you say we don't like to invest in preparation and
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prevention but if you do, about 3w 30 bucks per person you could become pandemic proof. we have to treat it more like a defense issue than naturally occurring weatheri issue. we are not healthy. this is one of those things we don't talk about enough because people comingle it with shame. not my intent. 42% of the country is obese. these diseases of affluence put us in tough shape for this pandemic. we think about things causing disease, problems later in the life. four or five times more severe illness in those who had severe obesity, chronic kidney disease. all these things. this is a wakeup call we have to obviously get healthier. we spend $4 trillion a year on health care. if we spent 1% of that in
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actually addressing some of the things you just saw on the screen it would go a long way toward making us healthier and more pandemic proof. >> explain to us what micro biomeans and why we should care. >> it is the various bacteria and things that live in your gut. the reason you should care is because about 80% of your immunity is in your gut. that surprises people. they say i want to build up my immunity. what does that mean? go to the gym? in part yes. but really understanding your micro biom, why it is important and if you want to improve immunity you got to actually improve your micro biome overall. one scientist said to me that's been studying this for a long time that what you eat in the morning could influence how you react to the disease that night. that is how quickly it can take effect. also by the way, chris, most of the seratonin, the feel good neuro transmitter, is also in
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your gut. so your mood aside from your immunity your mood, overall mental well being is directly related to your gut as well. a lot of people know this but we haven't executed on actually doing something about this. again, hopefully if anything good comes from this that stuff will serve as a wakeup call. >> if it were the size of your gut america would be in great shape. if it is what is in your gut we have a lot to work on. this book is a good guide for people who don't want to live through this again. dr. sanjay gupta, our best. world war c. catchy. on sale now. i'll take three. good to see you brother. the pandemic tragically set off a new wave of anti-asian hate crimes in america. you remember we were reporting on it. lisa ling is about to put the prejudice into context with history in the debut of an all new season of her award-winning
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honeywell forge. industrial grade software. this is life with lisa ling. it's back and once again lisa is uncovering some hard truths. take a look. >> in 1882 the u.s. government responded to those fears with racist legislation. the chinese exclusion act. and for the first time in american history the doors closed on a population because of where they were from. chinese immigrants who were already in the u.s. became the target of vicious attacks. >> people show up on the chinese settlement en masse with pitchforks and guns. they force people out into the dead of night. and literally thousands of folks
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are massacred because of this violence. >> why don't we ever hear about this in american history books? >> it's not something that is part of this great mythology of settling the frontier. >> and a great nation was built. >> it's not something that makes us look good. but we created this powerful, prosperous country on the backs of a lot of people. >> lisa ling is here. if i may, the gift of the show is the way you depict realities that people are able to see and be immersed in. and it makes it harder to question them then. you know what i mean? you have less reason to speculate and opposition when you are actually really soaked in it. and you're doing that once again. you're looking at what we're calling on the screen anti-asian
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hate in the united states. it's existed. it is spiking. it is often ignored. we covered it for a little while. but then people get tired and we move away. compassion fatigue. you're looking at it through the murder of vincent chin. i remember this. this was in the early '80s. talk about why you picked that case and why you want to take something from the past to project into the present. >> well, chris, this whole season our season 8, we are dedicated to telling stories examining aspects of american history that didn't make it into the books because i've always believed if we don't know where we've been how do we know where we're going. and in the case of vincent chin he was a chinese-american man working in detroit during a time of an economic downturn in the automotive capital of the world. and as a result so many workers were being laid off from their jobs and it became very easy to blame japanese auto
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manufacturers because they were producing these fuel-efficient cars during a time when the country was going through an energy crisis. so vincent chin is in a bar celebrating his bachelor party with some friends and he gets into an altercation with two out of work auto workers who accuse him of of being japanese and taking their jobs. they get kicked out of the bar. they wait for vincent chin. when he he comes out, they chase him down and they beat him to death with a baseball bat. and those two men never served a single day in jail or prison. but that case did become the first ever civil rights case involving an asian american in this country. and when you look at what has been happening in the last year and a half in this country since covid has taken root and the scapegoating of asian americans, violence and attacks against the community have increased over 1000%. there is this pattern of
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scapegoating that has existed, that has continued for more than a century. and so we are highlighting that in this episode. and you know, there's been this incredible movement that has arisen in the wake of all of this violence. and the community is galvanized. and the federal government, corporations, schools are considering teaching asian american history. when i grew up, we had no asian american history. and when you don't have any context for people living in this country, it becomes really easy to overlook and even dehumanize them. >> listen, and we're seeing it now. and it was interesting, in the most recent wave, whenever you heard that a case was of an asian being abused or assaulted and it wasn't done by a white guy, all of a sudden it confused people. like that's the only people who can come after asians. like there hasn't been selectivity within minority communities and different types of infighting in communities. and you're going to take that on. and lisa, nobody takes that on the way you do. i know you open up your heart in
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these things. obviously, this is close to home, being asian yourself. so we're all going to tune in once again and it's good to see you, my friend. >> thank you so much, chris. >> keep doing what you do better than anybody else. it's an all new season of "this is life with lisa ling." premieres sunday night 10:00 p.m. only on cnn. there's only one lisa ling. you'll see why when you watch. we'll be right back with the hand-off.
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