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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  July 22, 2021 5:00pm-6:00pm PDT

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>> the nation academy of sciences a year ago in a very extensive report they did suggested that the most plausible theory for what caused this was some form of directed energy, and that sort of narrows then, you know, the number of potential suspects who could have used this, have used it historically, and have the reach to do this in more than one part of the world. >> barnes says havana syndrome cases number in the hundreds here and overseas. thanks for joining us. it's time for anderson. good evening. the biden administration tonight striking an urgent new tone on covid. now repeatedly calling it a pandemic of the unvaccinated. and that is certainly true. now, most of the hospitalizations and deaths of people from covid are people who have chosen not to be vaccinated. and that choice not to get vaccinated does put millions of other americans at risk. those who can't get the vaccine because they are
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immunocompromised or because they're children and the vaccine hasn't been approved for kids under the age of 12 yeet. while this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated, there are millions of children who can get sick because adults won't do something to protect them. the delta variant highly infectious, much easier to catch if you're unvaccinated, is now the dominant strain in the country. cases have doubled, tripled, and now nearly quadrupled over the last four weeks. listen to hhs secretary xavier becerra in las vegas where the state's positivity rate approaching 15%, and only 39% of the county encompassing las vegas fully vaccinated. >> this is not fiction. this is not some kind of disinformation campaign. this is just a fact. if you are dying today in america from covid, it's because essentially you're unvaccinated. why would you want to die? >> and as we have been seeing all week, icus in nevada, arkansas, louisiana, and florida are once again getting busy.
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that's not just a problem for the unvaccinated. er doctorses, hospital staffers are once again forced to deal with the stress and strain of treating people who wouldn't be in the icu if they had gotten a vaccine. we have seen the stock market dip on fears the delta variant would put a chill on what was starting to look like a post-covid economy. we saw job ltsz claims rise unexpectedly. we have also seen tempers flare as localities grapple over restrictions that people just a few weeks ago thought were behind us. >> i'm here fighting with hundreds of other parents because we don't want our kids masked for seven hours a day. and i look around and i see all of you sitting here without masks. seriously, what's the deal? >> that's a parpt in virginia beach, virginia, over the question of whether kids should have to wear masks when school returns in september. this isn't a state where nearly 65% of adults are vaccinated which is significantly better than the country as a whole. the truth is, though, no matter
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where you live, it's clear that a lot of people are simply confused and frustrated over how to handle this new delta surge. emily baker hurley and her husband got vaccinated and they let up on mask wearing and they got infected. though she's asymptomatic and he has minor symptoms, their daughters are 5 years old and 9 months old, too young to be vaccinated, and both got infected and it hasn't been easy. >> the kids have been really, really sick. 103 fevers, diarrhea and vomiting. and it's been especially scary with a baby. >> this is a pandemic of the unvaccinated. those are the people getting hospitalized and dying. until more americans choose to take this vaccine, this miracle of medicine, this pandemic of the unvaccinated is going to continue to impact us all. cnn's kaitlan collins at the white house for us tonight. the administration is now acknowledging the pandemic has entered a new phase, it seems. >> yeah, a troubling new phase for them, because anderson, while they incest they're not
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worried about vaccinated people still, they still think they're enjoying good protection from the vaccines, you're seeing stories like that woman's just there and also the concern about the half of america that is not yet vaccinated. 50% of americans still have not gotten the vaccine. and you are seeing the delta variant circulate, and the cdc director is warning it's nothing like what she's ever seen in her two decades in public health. and i talked to another health official tonight who said this is something they have been warning about for a month, and we're now seeing the consequences of it, but they said it is spreading faster and wider than they had anticipated when it comes to this delta variant. and so president biden held a briefing today with his coronavirus team. they talked about the state of the pandemic, the state of vaccinations. he was even an hour late to an event he had in the east room because of the briefing, anderson, and he himself is acknowledging they're putting the 25-person team to talk about what is going on right now in this phase of the pandemic given it is not at where they expected it to be six months in, several months in to taking office. and now it's a new phase they
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have to deal with that looks very different than what it did on day one. >> more than half of americans not fully vaccinated. it's extraordinary that that is the situation right now. what are you learning about the discussions between the white house and health officials about possibly revising a mask mandate? >> this is where it comes to affect people who did get vaccinated because we are hearing from sources that inside the white house and that top federal health officials are having conversations, maybe preliminary ones. but they're talking about whether they need to update the mask guidance for those of us who are fully vaccinated. when you're in an indoor setting, when you're around other people who are not vaccinated, given we are seeing breakthrough cases happening to those people who are fully vaccinated. they are still investigating what the spread of that is going to look like. and so the white house was insistent today, they wouldn't even confirm these conversations were happening, though we know they are from multiple sources. they did say right now, the guidance still stands as it was from what the cdc said a few months ago. if you're fully vaccinated, you don't need to wear a mask. but the cdc director told me she
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believes it's a individual choice and if you feel like you need another layer of protection, you can wear the mask. the big question is, are they going to change the guidance and will people follow it if they do. >> thank you. all of it, a lot to take in. we want to take time to map out exactly where we are. to do that, we're joined by two people who have guided us for the past year and a half. dr. sanjay gupta is in tokyo where covid has shaken up the olympic games. also dr. lena wen. sanjay, as you wrote just last week, we got very close, tantalizingly close in the race against covid. now, as i mentioned, we find ourselves in this unsettling, confusing time. from a medical perspective, where are we in the course of the pandemic now? >> well, you know, if the country came in for a checkup right now, anderson, i think the doctors and nurses would tell them they're concerned. i mean, you have about a third of the country now that has high levels of viral transmission. we're in july. this is supposed to be the best
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time of the year as far as viral transmission being low. people are outside, the virus doesn't like to be outside. this could be as good as it gets, at least for a period of time. and yet a third of the country can take a look at the map. viral transmission is high. at the same time that the viral transmission is high, vaccination rates are low. i mean, they're really remarkably low. i have to tell you, i'm here in tokyo. we have been talking a lot about athletes around the world, and there are people who are begging for these vaccines in countries where they only have 1% of the country vaccinated. and we can't give them away, apparently, in the united states. so those two things in particular, i think, you know, raise the level of concern. as we go into the fall, the weather gets cooler and drier, the virus transmits more easily, that's a concern. and i just gotta say as well, just based on what caitlyn was talking about, and i talked to dr. walensky about the masks. it's very interesting to me to say are we going to get ahead of this or not?
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have we learned lessons from just last year or are we going to be late on this again? this is really concerning. and frankly, if this mask issue wasn't so politicized, i think the answer would be very clear, that indoors, especially when -- even if you're vaccinated, if you're around a lot of unvaccinated people and you're in an area where the viral transmission is high, you should probably put a mask on. i am not sure why this is still so challenging a year and a half into this pandemic. >> obviously, there's concern that if that message is sent to a lot of people, that some people are going to interpret it as, well, if i still have to wear a mask, and i'm vaccinated, what's the point of being vaccinated? >> well, i hear that. and i also realize that it might be from a psyche standpoint, hard to absorb for the country. but people need to understand that that does not mean the vaccines aren't effective. the vaccines are remarkably effective. but you have to think about this not as a binary, like either i'm totally protected or i'm not.
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the vaccines may take what would otherwise be a critical illness where you end up in the hospitals in an icu and turn it into a mild illness. but even that is something you don't want. you don't want to have a fever of 103 and sick for two weeks, even if it doesn't take you to the hospital. there are people who get vaccinated that may still develop symptoms. that's the thing you have got to remember here. if you're around all vaccinated people all the time, that's great. unfortunately, in the united states, we haven't gotten to that point. 50% not even of the country is vaccinated. when you go out and about, you're likely going to be showered with viral particles. your body is going to do a better job of protecting yourself, but it's not perfect. the idea of slipping on two ear loops and protecting yourself like we have been talking about for a year and a half, it confound me that we're still having this conversation and we're finding all these loopholes and excuses not to do what we should obviously be
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doing. >> dr. wen, to me, one of the arguments about that i respond tee, maybe because i'm a new parent, of wearing a mask even though i have been vaccinated, is the idea that we still don't know if you have been vaccinated if you -- how much you can transmit a virus to your child. so in your home, your kid, and we still have this idea that kids don't, you know, brush this off and it doesn't affect kids, although we have now seen cases with delta where kids have been hospitalized. so to you, what is the argument for wearing a mask if you have been vaccinated? >> well, the biggest argument that i can see is that we just don't know at this point about the delta variant. and if we don't know key questions, we should be using an abuddance of caution. the cdc is still operating in the past. the data they're basing their advice on saying if you're vaccinated you're protected, that was pre-delta. we actually don't know the data
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about if you're fully vaccinated, but you contract the delta variant, are you able to tr traps mitt it to others, including parents to unvaccinated children? if we don't know what the risk is, how are parents or anyone supposed to make a decision for themselves and their families. it makes a big difference if the risk is 1 in 100 versus 1 in 2. we don't know because the cdc is not collecting that data. it's said the cdc is a great institution in peace time, but it's slow, and we're now in the middle of a war, and we can't wait. i will say one more thing about the biden administration's message that is really off. they keep saying, if you're vaccinated, you're protected, implying it only matters to you if you're vaccinated. it doesn't matter if other people around you are vaccinated or not. but that's just not true. as sanjay was saying, if there's all kinds of virus around you, if you're in a community with a lot of virus, then because these vaccines are not 100%, it is going to impact you. as to whether this will undermine confidence in the
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vaccines, we wear seat belts, we don't expect they're going to save our lives every time. we might need more than a seat belt, but saying that doesn't mean it's undermining confidence in seat belts. it's saying the choices other people are making influence us too. >> dr. wen, sanjay gupta, appreciate it. next, sports anchor rich eisen talks about his breakthrough infection and why getting vaccinated is still a good idea. it's his first on-camera interview since his diagnosis and recovery. you'll only see it here. >> also, that tape we all heard of, the former president ranting about the election he lost, given the tone and the content of it, we'll ask a former friend of the first family if she thinks he's losing it. we'll be right back. a fund that invests in the innovators of the nasdaq-100 like you become an agent of innovation with invesco qqq
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at today's white house covid briefing, officials spent time discussing breakthrough cases in people who had already had the vaccine. here's what anthony fauci had to say. >> infections after vaccination
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are expected. no vaccine is 100% effective. however, even if a vaccine does not completely protect against infection, it usually, if it's successful, protects against serious disease. >> which brings us to the nfl network's rich eisen. he was vaccinated, then came down with a case of covid recently. here's part of what he posted on social media last week. quote, as someone sitting day four in quarantine, fighting off symptoms, i can personally attest, you still need to be careful, and most importantly, get vaccinated. why? especially since mine didn't keep covid from my body? so there aren't any more variants to pierce highly effective vaccines that would ordinarily get all of us back to normal life. if you want an answer more personal to you, get vaccinated so you won't go to the hospital and die. rich eisen joins us for his first interview since being infected. good to see you. first, how are you feeling? >> i'm feeling fine. i got out of quarantine
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yesterday. other than just being fatigued, the symptoms that i had, which were very difficult, they're gone. >> so for people who say, well, i have been vaccinated. if i get this thing, you know, i'm not even going to notice it, what did it feel like for you? >> it started with just a tickle in my throat. and then a small cough the next day. i thought it was allergies. and it turned out to be covid. and after my test was confirmed with another test, it really began to hit me. but in a weird way, to be honest, with chills and body aches. but no fever. i still have a sense of taste and smell, but no appetite. it was just really weird but very difficult at times to get through, certainly because you just never knew how it could manifest itself in a way that could go in the wrong direction. >> to people who, you know, read what you said, hear your story,
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and say, well, why then get vaccinated if this thing, if i'm still going to get sick from it? >> well, i have seen that, actually. in response to my post, that why should i get vaccinated? rich eisen got covid even when he was vaccinated. and the fact that i'm here to talk to you, anderson, is a testament to my vaccine, that i'm not ventilatored right now. i'm not in a hospital. i never was in a hospital. also, my daughter got it. nothing is more personal than your 7-year-old daughter getting it. and it's entirely possible. it's very feasible i gave it to her. she's okay right now, but that is harrowing. that is as white knuckle of an experience as you can get. plus the fact that i attempted to have a normal summer. my wife and i were heading on vacation out of the country, which is why i tested. otherwise, i would have thought maybe it's just some sort of an
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all allergy, and i could have spread it around even worse. but i was trying to be normal. that's what i have been told, we should live with it. and that life should get back to normal, but nothing is normal about a 52-year-old who is healthy staring out a window in quarantine for ten days while his 7-year-old daughter has it after being so careful, my wife and i have been so careful for a year plus. so the fact that i am here to talk to you is because i was vaccinated. and the fact that i went through it is not enough people are vaccinated, because the delta variant pierced my vaccine. >> that's what i don't understand about people who have chosen not to get vaccinated. is that there are millions of children who can't be vaccinated at this point because they're under the age of 12, you can't be. maybe that will change. but hopefully it will change. but there's millions of kids running around, and there's people who are -- have the delta variant because they haven't been vaccinated.
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they have chosen not to get vaccinated, and they say if you're vaccinated, youtient be concerned about what i'm doing to my own body. there's a lot of people, these kids can't make a choice on it. they don't have a choice to make, and they are endangering kids. >> there's no question about the fact that my 7-year-old daughter, after my wife and i were extremely careful for a year plus, got it, most likely because i got it. i have no idea how i got it. all i know is i did take a blood test because my physicians thought, let's take a look at why a 52-year-old relatively healthy and in shape individual got covid despite being double vaxed with pfizer, by the way. i was fully vaccinated as of late february. and my antibodies that they could test prior to my getting sick showed that i had a full protection. this delta variant is no joke. if people are unvaccinated, who the heck knows what the next
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variant might be. it could actually be easier for all of us who are vaccinated to get it. so i -- that's why i'm urging everybody to get vaccinated, that my story should not be used in any way, shape, or form as proof that things don't work. it does work. it did not keep me from getting infected, the reason why is because there's too much of a part of our population in the world as well who are not vaccinated. that's why there's a variant that put me in quarantine for ten days. >> and why there may be other variants coming down the pike that we still don't know about at this point because not enough people are vaccinated. now, there's certainly a lot of questions about the use of masks. we have seen in los angeles county, there's now a mask mandate for public indoor settings. to those who say this is punishing people who have been vaccinated or an inconvenience they shouldn't have to go through, what do you say? >> i am fed up, quite frankly, anderson, that the people who are vaccinated frequently need to take precautions and acede to
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those who are not vaccinated. it's part of our country where you think that there is something going on, and you should be responsible for your actions, that is true. but all that said, despite how angry i am, i am going to mask up. i heard dr. gupta, a fellow wolverine, saying in the previous segment, you're just putting two loops around your ears. it is an inconvenience, but i'm also going to wear a mask the rest of my life in a grocery store, indoors, on planes. it is just going to be a facet of life that is inconvenient, but if it protects me and then so doing protects my children, my 83-year-old mother, my mother-in-law, my uncle-in-law, my aunt-in-law, people like that, if that's what i have to do, and keep it from my children, and protect others around me, that's what i will
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do. >> i just want to change gears and ask you about an announcement from the nfl today that any covid outbreak among unvaccinated players or staff will automatically forfeit that week's game as a loss. were you surprised the nfl did this? what do you think of it? >> well, last year, anderson, when we did not have a vaccine to help out, the nfl held a game on every day of the week. now, thursday, saturday, sunday, monday are scheduled game days throughout the year. but tuesdays and wednesdays are not. there was a friday game because it was a scheduled christmas day, which made it every single day of the week had an nfl game scheduled on it last year. there was a thanksgiving night game on a partner nbc that got pushed all the way to the following wednesday. the nfl does not want to do that again. nor should they do it again if there is science that can be relied on to make things potentially easier and safer.
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and so i think the nfl has decided to make this maneuver. i will say that if the game can't be rescheduled throughout the year somehow, it's not going to be an automatic forfeiture on the spot for that week. they're going to try to get the game in. but last year, there were no cancellations. and there was a very low positivity rate in the nfl of .08, so hopefully, this year, with vaccines, it can be even better. i would just counsel all of the players who are unvaccinated right now to consult their team doctor who will tell them i think what i just said. >> yeah. rich eisen, i'm so glad you are doing okay, and i hope your daughter continues to do okay. and the rest of your family as well. and i appreciate you speaking out because everybody needs to talk about this stuff. and the more we talk about it, hopefully more people will get vaccinated. thank you very much. >> thanks for having me on. >> up next, the former president on tape continuing to rant about how he lost the election. we'll play you some of his
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words. the question is, is he kind of losing his grip on reality down in mar-a-lago, just rambling about this stuff over and over and over every single day? former friend of the family weighs in. the first full prescription strength gel for powerful arthritis pain relief... voltaren the joy of movement ♪ ♪ oh, son of a poppyseed! ah, there's no place like panera. enjoy the cool, refreshing strawberry poppyseed salad. panera. order on the app today. vo: the climate crisis is here. berardelli: these temperatures are almost unbelievable even for a meteorologist. vo: and the solution is here too: clean energy. like wind turbines and solar panels. now, congress has to invest in it and the millions of workers ready to install it across the country. because in america, we don't hide from problems like climate change. we take them on.
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former administration, but they brought exclusive excerpts with the former president for their book, i alone can fix it. i want to play a portion of one of those conversations that made bearing on the house committee's selection to the capitol riot. it's a portion of a much longer conversation between the ex-president and the authors of the book about what he said he wanted his supporters to do on january 6th. >> what did you hope they would do when you said go up there and stop? >> i heard people wanted to go down to -- that wasn't my rally, per se. there were a lot of people that spoke. they had rallies the night before. they had speakers all over the city. you had hundreds of thousands of people. i would venture to say -- i think it was the largest crowd i have ever spoken to before. it went from that point, which is almost at the white house, to beyond the washington monument. it was -- and wide.
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>> but if you could have waved your wand -- >> it was a loving crowd. there was a lot of love. many, many people have told me. that was a loving crowd. and, you know, it was too bad. it was too bad that they did that. but my statement -- >> mr. president, i apologize, what we're trying to understand is, not blame, not castigate. we want to understand, what did you want when you said go up there? what would you have dreamed for them to do? >> i would have said you will show not to go in, although they were ushered in by the police. in all fairness, the capitol police were ushering people in. the capitol police were very friendly. you know, they were hugging. you don't see that. but plenty of tape on that, too. you know, because the capitol police were -- that's the way it is. but i wanted -- i mean, personally, what i wanted is what they wanted. they showed up.
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just to show support because i happen to believe the election was rigged at a level like nothing has ever been rigged before. >> the full thing goes on for about four more minutes or so, when he rambles all through the big lie, just saying things which are just completely not true. perspective now from stephanie, who was an adviser to the former first lady. she's author of the book, melania and me, the rise and fall of my friendship with the first lady. also with us, john dean, former white house counsel to president nixon and cnn contributor. stephanie, you spent quite a bit of time with the tormer president over the years. i wonder from what you heard in these recordings, the continued delusions and conspiracies, i mean, does that sound like the person you knew? >> it does, anderson. it sounds very much like donald trump. very much in denial, and very convincing to his followers. this is something that happens
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behind closed doors. and if you weren't watching it and listening to it, you do, you believe him. i mean, that's why so many people still follow him. >> it's interesting, john, last night when we first heard these recordings from carol and philip's interview with the former president, the longer one goes on and on. my immediate reaction was, the first time i had heard it, was it reminds me of some of those tapes of nixon, drunk, rambling in his final days in the white house. i assume he was drunk. obviously, the former president says he doesn't drink, but it is just as rambling and lying in a way, maybe perhaps that nixon wasn't even lying, as someone who was part of the administration, what do you hear when you hear the former president? >> well, it's baffled me for a long time about trump. and i have gone between thinking the man is crazy, the man is crazy like a fox, where i really, i have read about everything you can read about
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him. i have watched him as we all have closely for four years. where i think he is, anderson, this is just another con. and he's just not going to let up on it. he's focused on it. as stephanie said, he's very good at this. he's very convincing. he's a salesman. and this is his start for his rebid to get back in the white house. he wants power. he wants attention. this is going to draw it for him. he thinks this is his ticket. >> you know, stephanie, when i heard this also, this tape, it reminded me of what i kind of imagined his life in mar-a-lago to be, which is, you know, just there all day, people coming to have meetings with him, to praise him, you know, eating. he sits in the lobby, he holds these meetings, according to michael wolff, he wants to be seen holding meetings with people. he's, you know, schmoozing at dinner. people come up to the table. he sort of is like a maitre d' at times, going to people's tables, crashing people's weddings, making speeches.
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i imagine him saying this over and over. i mean, talking about the big lie every single day. one of his -- i don't know if it's a genius or just a pathology, but when he has something he wants to make everybody believe, he just repeats it so much that it exhausts you, and then repeats it even more. >> absolutely. i mean, anderson, i personally witnessed, had an experience with mr. trump and melania at trump tower, where he convinced me so much, and i speak about it in my book, about rich gates, that he didn't know who this person was, and he was his deputy chairman. there is this nature within him, and i think that his lies are so convincing that he actually believes them himself. and he's made all of his followers believe them as well. >> john, it is rare in life that one encounters a conman who, you
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know, reaches the heights that this man did and has. but i don't know that we as humans are sort of wired to -- i think in general, from the research i have read, people kind of believe in other people. people want to believe the best in other people. and that's why we're so susceptible to these kind of cons. he's certainly the master of this. >> he indeed is. the only parallel i can think, anderson, and i understand your reaction to hearing the tapes and the nixonian reaction, which is well placed, is the parallel with nixon never admitting that he was guilty of any crime. well, he was a sophisticated lawyer. he knew well, in fact, crimes that hadn't even surfaced while he was still alive, there were multitudes of them, but he never would admit to guilt. that's a similar lie. he just couldn't let himself go there. because he said he didn't feel like he had committed a crime. trump doesn't feel like he should have lost. he watched those crowds and thinks he should have won.
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so therefore he's going to say it was rigged. because he didn't win. >> stephanie, i also think, what a slap in the face to capitol hill police officers, you know, dozens of whom were injured, traumatized, you know, will have things that they're dealing with for the rest of their lives in some cases, for the former president to be saying, well, you know, the capitol police, there was so much love in the crowd, and the capitol police just let them in, and they were hugging the protesters. you know, as somebody who, you know, you were intimate with the family, more so melania, and not really from a political realm. you were a friend of hers and working on the inauguration. i'm wondering what you saw on january 6th. how did you see it? >> well, i saw it exactly as it was. i mean, this was a, you know, destruction of our democracy. and what happened to the police officers was, you know, it was a
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disgrace on everything that america stands for. and for him to say that they were open armed and loving is really, i don't want to use the word, but it is sick because it's anything but loving and caring. >> john, the other thing that really strikes me is that, and i think it was interesting because that's what carol and philip rucker were trying to do, you asked the president what did you want them to do when you said go to the capitol and i'll walk with you, of course he was not going to do that, though many people thought he was, he can't answer that question because he doesn't have an answer to that question. so you hear in that tape, you know, he starts to say, well, you know, i wanted them to show -- and then he goes off to say, well, they were welcomed in. the capitol police let them in. he goes off on tangents. they try to bring him back and said what did you want. he said well, i wanted what they wanted. well, we know what they wanted. they wanted to hang mike pence.
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that's what the crowd, many in the crowd were chanting. we saw what they wanted. and how they wanted to accomplish it, by overcoming police lines and breaking into the capitol. >> anderson, if you look at that transcript of that conversation he had with them, he stops just short of answering the questions. he obviously knows what the answer is and blocks himself from revealing it. that's very telling to me. i think it says a lot. >> yeah, john dean, stephanie winston, thank you very much. >> just ahead, what china told the world today about the lab leak theory and whether it will help in the investigation if the origin of the coronavirus. we'll have that and where the investigation stands when we come back.
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batteries and first aid kit are a good start to learn more, visit stand-off now between the u.s., china, and the world health organization over the investigation into the origin of the coronavirus. the white house says it is, quote, deeply disappointed, unquote, in china's decision today that it will not cooperate in the second phase of the study. david culver is in shanghai with the details. where do things stand right now in the investigation? has china shut the door permanently to allowing international scientists back into the country? >> shut the doors. anderson, probably locked it several times over. we saw it going in this direction. it's not incredibly surprising to see them increasingly hesitant about letting anyone in here. but it is something that is
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disappointing for a lot of scientists because they said this is now become political manipulation, rhetoric we have heard before. they also say that this goes against common sense and science. allowing this phase two investigation. and you have to recommend, the w.h.o. was here already. they had a team on the ground. we were in wuhan earlier this year. think of the timing when that team was here doing their field research. 12 months after the initial outbreak. so investigators that we spoke with who really are deeply tied into this initial field mission said that's like going to a crime scene 12 months later, after having it been washed over multiple times. when we were there initially after the outbreak, we saw them cleaning it. they had shut it down, so doing any sort of field research seemed at that point to yield no positive results and really no subst substantive data. getting access to some of the chinese data has been increasingly difficult for these scientists as well. a lot of these scientists i had been speaking with hoped they
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would get another chance to get back in here, that perhaps the politics would subside a little bit and they would have that opportunity. looking like it's not going to happen. >> yeah, unless some data has been captured somehow or through technological means or there's some, you know, human intelligence, somebody who was directly associated with the lab who comes forward, how can investigators really figure this out? >> getting access is everything. and that's not going to happen, to your point. and if there is somebody who has potentially been connected to that lab that would have knowledge, they're not going to have the comfort to speak out here. i mean, that's something we have worked at quite diligently to try to get access to some of those individuals. which win you have to remember, the individuals they had speaking at the health official conference were head of the wuhan head of virology, they hold the biosafety lab, which is
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suspected to be one of the origin places, and the head of the w.h.o. mission from china's representation side of things. so they're the ones pushing forward this narrative and determined in all times ahead of the beijing 2022 olympics and as china celebrates 100 years of the communist party to make sure the narrative stayathize way it, and they're not going to allow this really scientific investigation to move past politics. >> thank you, david. >> perspective from jamie metzl, currently an adviser to the world health organization. he was the lead drafter of four open letters saying china needs to be called out and to investigate the lab leak theory. so, you have been a critic from the beginning of this joint investigation with the world health organization, and china has been supposedly working together. are you at all surprised by how this process has broken down? because it doesn't seem like china certainly really has a lot to gain by allowing any kind of investigation. i'm not sure why they would. >> i'm not all that surprised, but basically, this process has
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been compromised from the very beginning. the agreement at the world health assembly last year called for a joint study by an international committee and their chinese government counterparts. that was what happened earlier this year. but it was really the leadership and incredible courage of the w.h.o. director general that pushed things forward, that said we need a full investigation. we need transparency. we need access to the raw data. we need to audit the laboratories in wuhan. and once he and the w.h.o. came forward calling for what needs to be done, the chinese, not surprisingly, said forget it because it's been clear from day one the chinese have no interest in a full investigation into pandemic origins, and from day one, they have been doing everything possible to block that. >> and i guess that can be read two ways. either clearly they're hiding something and they caused this, you know, either accidentally or intentionally, or this is a reflexive move by an authoritarian regime which doesn't have the same methods
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and standards as the international community does. do you know which it is? >> you could say that. well, i mean, i really don't like that argument, oh, that's just china being china. pick your number, maybe 10 million people dead as a result of this totally avoidable pandemic. it's just not acceptable that china is destroying samples, hiding records, imprisoning chinese citizen journalists, has a gag order preventing scientists from saying or writing anything publicly about pandemic origins without prior government approval. it's just not acceptable. if this happened in any other place in the world, everyone would be demanding a full investigation. everyone on earth, including everyone in china, is at risk if we don't understand how this terrible crisis began and take steps to fix our greatest vulnerabilities. >> what happens now? last week, the head of the world health organization acknowledged it was premature to rule out a link between the pandemic and a leak from the coronavirus lab -- from the chinese lab.
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we're nearly a year and a half into this. what happens now? >> yeah, i have a piece, as you may know, on that just released moments ago with the strategy for moving forward. first, we need to fully support dr. tedrose and the world health organization, but wi need to be clear china is going to block that process. we then need to set up an alternative mechanism for investigating to the full extent possible through some other mechanism that china can't block, and whether that's the g-7, the oecd, the quad countries or something else. then the united states needs to establish our own 9/11-style bipartisan covid commission. other countries need to do the same. and then we need a comprehensive process for identifying and addressing our greatest vulnerabilities. if china wants to thumb its nose at the rest of the world, if china wants to disrespect the 10 million people who are dead as a result of this totally preventable pandemic and insult
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every one of their families. that's on them. but we shouldn't give china a veto over whether or not we investigate the worst pandemic in a century. >> yeah. jamie metzl, i appreciate it. thank you. up next, as new covid cases in florida rise, what happened to a mother of eight there who decide not to get a covid vaccination and got infected and fought to live. her harrowing story when we come back. ally-adjustable, foot-warming, temperature-balancing... proven quality night sleep we've ever made. save up to $1,000 on select sleep number 360 smart beds and adjustable bases. plus, 0% interest for 24 months. only for a limited time.
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in florida, the new covid-19 cases is on the rise. so much so the highest in the nation. this despite the governor urging people to get vaccinated, tonight 360s randy kcow has a story of a mom that refused to get her shot and found herself in the fight for her life. >> it was horrifying. i never in my life felt like i was going to die until that day. >> this mother of eight from lake butler, florida, is opening up about how close she came to dying from covid-19. she chose not to get the vaccine. her husband was not vak sib ated either. >> what was it about the vaccine that concerned you? that made you not want to get
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it? >> just that it had not been around long. you said oh, i know, that -- this is the government just trying to fill our bodies with stuff and, you know, and, you know, they're trying to push the shot on us. >> but earlier this month, her husband got covid-19. then it spread to her and their four kids living at home. including their youngest who is just 6. soon she was struggling to breathe. so they rushed her to the hospital. >> i remember being very desperate, grabbing the mask. and feeling, you know, the oxygen come in. >> she spent nine days in the hospital. six of them in the icu. >> and those moments when you can't breenl like that, even with all the oxygen they were giving me, it feels like you have a ziploc bag over your head and somebody is holding it.
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and, i mean, i had oxygen on. i was still feeling that way. >> at 43, did you ever think that you would get that sick from covid-19? >> no. 100%. i had conversations with my husband and said we probably already had it. just didn't even know it. and honestly, he agreed. we had probably already had it. there had been times i was sick, probably covid-19 number big deal. >> no big deal? not exactly. her oxygen had dropped to dangerously low levels. just 68%. she says she was told she had about a 20% chance of survival. >> my youngest baby is 6 years old. and so when you're told that and you have a 6-year-old, you know, like he's probably -- if i die, he's not going to remember me. >> she is speaking out now because she wants people to know
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how much she regrets not getting the vaccine. a decision that nearly cost her her life. >> i was one of the people like i can't believe people are just going to inject their body with this medication. we don't know enough about it. now i'm just like it is just a shot. just get the stupid shot. that vaccine could have stopped all of this. just one little shot. and i feel foolish that i didn't get it. i wish to god i would have got it. it's not just about what it could have prevented me from experiencing physically in my life right now, but it could have saved my family so much heartache, my children from seeing me go through that and my husband. and, you know, my siblings from seeing it. >> so you're full of regret? >> so much regret. >> randy joins us now from jacksonville, florida. is she planning to get the vaccine now and what about the
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rest of her family? >> anderson, she is planning to get the vaccine as soon as she's strong enough to do so. she is also planning on getting her whole family vaccinated including her 6-year-old boy that already had covid-19. she wants to make sure he is vaccinated as well. she thinks vaccines for some professions should be mandatory for teachers included. she plans to home-school her children. she doesn't want anybody near her children now that is not vaccinated. she still, even though she's home from the hospital, she is still dealing with a lot of pain and discomfort. you saw she's on an oxygen machine. she is attached to that. she is having trouble breathing still. she can't walk to the mail box without help from her daughter. her 19-year-old daughter is bathing her. certainly not out of the woods, anderson, even though she was lucky enough to survive it. >> no word on when children under the age of 12 can get vaccinated. will appreciate it, thank you. >> up next, breaking news and a shooting in the nation's capitol. plus more covid-19 concern with the pace of vaccination slowing
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good evening. chris cuomo is off tonight. a shooting in a heavily frequented part of the city known for night spots. the facts are just coming in. we expect to learn more as we go. this is video seen on the scene as people fled. take a look.