tv CNN Tonight With Don Lemon CNN April 21, 2021 11:00pm-12:00am PDT
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so, don and i heard about this story last night, on social media, while we were doing coverage for you, of the chauvin verdict. last night. and the initial reports didn't seem right. and it was so interesting, for me, as emotional and personal as these stories are, as someone of color, especially, don, you with your background. you were cautious about it. you were saying, huh. i want to see this one. i want to see this. because there was a lot of emotion, and understandably so. you got a 16-year-old kid that's gone. >> yeah. >> and it's a hard one. i do not know how to explain this to people, in a way that doesn't make somebody very angry. >> well, yes, and we are dealing with a lot of emotion right now. and i am going to talk about that, in a moment. and i think that is -- it's real. and you have to take that -- that part has to be taken into account. there is a lot of anguish that people are very emotional right now. but we have got to be fair about what happens, when police arrive at scenes. it is tragic that it's a
16-year-old girl. just, as it is tragic that it's a 13-year-old, in chicago. when police are chasing people, they don't know how old they are. and they don't run and say, hey, how old are you? oh, i'm 13. you know, my mom let -- you don't know that. when they roll up on the scene, tussling, someone has a knife, and their job is to protect and serve every life on that scene. and if they see someone, who is in the process of taking a life, what does that decision -- what decision do they have to make? and i know that people say, well, you know, you could do this. you could do that. tasers don't work the way guns work. >> not at that distance. and not with that amount of time. >> yeah. right. tasers. and they don't always connect. so you got to get, you know, two prongs, or what have you. and it's got to connect or whatever. but i -- i see it, if the woman in the pink was my sister, niece, wife, whatever. i -- you have to make a
decision. is one life, on that scene, more valuable than another? and if someone is trying to take a life, on that scene, do you protect the life of the person trying to take the life? or do you protect the life of the person, whose life is in imminent danger, at that point? that's why i'm not a police officer. but when i look at that, i just -- it -- as i said, it is tough. because one is a 16-year-old. i don't know how old the other person is. but the other person's life was in imminent danger. and as you know, from the hostile-environment training that we get on this job. and -- and because of our proximity to law enforcement. that, at a certain distance, a stabbing, a knife, can be much-more lethal than a bullet. and especially, if you get stabbed in the -- in a -- in a -- in the artery, in the temple. somewhere, that you're going to bleed out. >> look. i feel for the -- i feel for -- you always feel for everybody involved. sometimes, i don't feel for certain parties, as much as
others. but i feel for that officer. you could hear it in his voice when he said -- you know, the man on the side was saying, you know, you shot my baby. the shot my baby. and he said, she had a knife, she went right at her. this is something that he is going to have to live with, also. i did have one person make one good point that i hope doesn't come across offensive because it's certainly not what i mean. >> no, but this is what people are talking about. because, again, we weren't on the scene. >> no. >> but before you say that, chris, even in the slowed-down version, the slow-mo version, that slowed version was a second. >> right. >> imagine in real time, how fast that's happening. you are like looking around. did someone call the police? and you see someone with a knife and they are trying to stab the other person. and you are like, what do you do? the taser doesn't work that fast. what do i do? right? and so, you've got to -- what you see is a life that is in jeopardy. in imminent jeopardy, at the moment. i don't know. yeah, that man is right. you shot my baby. and he is in grief and in pain. i get that. and the other person could have
been bleeding out on the sidewalk, as well. either way, in that position, i think, someone's life probably would have ended. it could have been the other woman, in the pink. or it could have been the -- the 16-year-old, who, sadly, ended up dying. go on. sorry. >> no, it's just that -- listen. everything you are saying is instructive. and brave. because people don't want to hear you say that this was a justified shooting. >> and we don't know. >> but we don't know. but i don't know that this sets up like it did when we first saw george floyd. >> no. >> i mean, you know, the moment you saw that, you knew it was wrong. the whole country knew it was wrong. white, black, you know, whatever, you knew. but here, somebody said something, to me, today, that gave me a little bit of clarity. older woman of color. said to me, i was like, man, this is really hard. you know, the piece of the tape where the guy says what he says. you know, you shot my baby. she goes, shame on him. i said, well, why? he just lost a family member. i don't know if it's his kid or whatever it was.
and the response was, you -- he came running out of that house. why didn't he stop it? where were the -- you know, what were they doing? why? why didn't he stop it? you know, why did the police have to come and control that situation? why didn't he? and, you know, i do see that perspective, as well. i hadn't thought of that before. but the guy comes running out of the house. tries to kick one woman in the head. you know, he is an active part of the fight. >> yeah. >> you know, the adults have to be adults, too. >> well, and listen. in that -- in that -- you know, i have got to run. because i have got to get to this. and i am going to talk to -- but in that part, it's like the -- it's like what people said before the 9 minutes and 29 seconds. that, oh, he was resisting, he was doing that. we all know, what it really came down to, is what happened in that 9 minutes and 29 seconds. so regardless of what he said, where was he? i get it. where was he before? why didn't he deescalate it? i don't know. but what -- what it will come down to is whether the police shooting, in that moment, in
those seconds, were justified. and police -- was him saving a third party's life on that scene justified? >> he has a duty. >> and he has a duty to do that. >> to use force to protect his own life or the life of another. >> it's not going to come to this. what happened in the house. it's going to come when he rolls up on that scene. they are tussling. they are rolling around. and then, he sees someone with a knife. boom. that is the part that is gonna be whether it's justified or not. that part. not everything that happened before. >> the analysis is only of the instant circumstances. i am saying, if you want to have this contextual conversation that people seem to want to have about what else we do, people fight with knives all the time. do we really need cops? the answer is no. learn how to control your kids and don't be so violent and we won't need cops. but that's not the reality. >> the reality is i got to go. >> i love you, don lemon. i love the conversation. >> thank you for these conversations. again, we need a lot of grace. people are in their feelings, right now, as well they should be.
this is "cnn tonight." i am don lemon. and this country is at a crossroads tonight, which we have been talking about. it's at a crossroads. a white-ex-police officer held accountable. held accountable for murdering george floyd. held accountable for the horror we all saw in that 9 minutes and 29 second video. the nightmare playing out, on a loop in our heads. we are talking about derek chauvin. he is going to be in prison for years, for what he did. that's accountability. it hasn't come nearly often enough, in this country. but the question is, what happens now? what will america do, now? what do we do now? george floyd's brother, philonise, writing in "the washington post" op-ed. he said, this verdict is a story but it shouldn't be historic to punish people who do bad things, even if they wear a police uniform. especially, if they wear a police uniform. george floyd's cousin saying this. >> accountability is -- is exactly what -- what we have gotten.
but it won't -- it sends a message. but we, also, need to have the laws change. >> the family got accountability. and we should celebrate that, for them, because it was far from a sure thing. but, a man they loved, a brother, a cousin, a father, is dead. george floyd didn't live to see justice, because that officer took away his life. his murder opened the eyes of a lot of white people, to the violence that black people face and fear on a daily basis. a lot of people watched that video. 9 minutes 29 seconds of a black man being murdered before our very eyes. and thought, of course, the officer will be found guilty. nothing could be more egregious. but i have got to tell you that black people know there have been so many egregious cases, before. we know the rollcall of death. daunte wright, whose funeral is tomorrow, who was shot to death
by a police officer shouting taser, taser, just a few miles away. ahmaud arbery, breonna taylor, philando castile, walter scott, michael brown, eric garner. all the way back to emmett till, and beyond. we shouldn't need an extraordinary set of circumstances to get justice. we can't expect black people to be constantly filming police violence every-single time it happens. >> there's so many people. it seems like it took a unique-and-extraordinary convergence of factors. a brave, young woman, and a smartphone camera. a crowd, that was traumatized. traumatized witnesses. a murder, that last almost ten minutes, in broad daylight. for the whole world to see. for so many, it feels like it took all of that for the judicial system to deliver a just -- just basic accountability. >> meanwhile, there is more
death every day. every case is different. and we don't know all the facts about this one. but, we do know that a black 16-year-old girl, ma'khia bryant, was shot to death by a police officer, in columbus, ohio. questions about the use of force here are very different. since, in a series of clips, from police body cam video, the girl is seen holding a knife during a tussle with another young woman. an officer arrived at the scene and opened fire, when the girl appeared to attempt to stab a second woman. the moments before the shooting captured on the officer's body cam. and i wish that this were the last time that i'd have to warn you, it is graphic. >> hey. what's going on? what's going on? hey! hey! hey! get down! get down! get down! >> [ bleep ]. you shot my baby. are you [ bleep ] kidding?
>> i didn't do anything! this man is not supposed to be here! >> shut up. >> back up. >> is she shot? >> she had a knife. she just went at her. >> she's a [ bleep ] kid, man. you stupid? [ bleep ]. [ bleep ]. the city's public-safety director saying this. >> we don't, yet, have those answers. but, these are some of the questions that are asked and addressed in disciplinary hearings that come before me.
as chief woods has indicated, a fully-independent investigation is being conducted by bci. the results will be public. so, i plead with the community, let us not rush to judgment. as i said last night, fast facts should not come at the cost of complete-and-accurate facts. the loved ones of ma'khia bryant have my most sincere sympathies. and we, as a community, should wrap them in love. and we should allow the process to play out. thank you. >> people are anguished watching another video, like this. and i get it. but even in our anguish, we cannot abandon the responsibility we have to be fair. and even while our hearts are
hurting, we have to judge each incident, based on what we see and the facts we know. when i look at this video, i see police responding to a dangerous incident. where someone is armed with a knife. police have walked up on a situation, they need to figure out what's happening. other lives are in danger. if we are going to discuss this case, we need to be honest, and use our common sense. we cannot have a double standard. we have to acknowledge that police have jobs to do. but, with people dying every day, we have got to find a pathway to justice. a roadmap to take this country to where we need to be. to liberty and justice, for all. and we may be taking the first steps on that pathway, right now. the attorney general, merrick garland, announcing a sweeping-doj investigation that goes beyond george floyd's case, to investigate the minneapolis-police department, itself, where derek chauvin worked. >> today, i am announcing that
the justice department has opened a civil investigation to determine whether the minneapolis-police department engages in a pattern or practice of unconstitutional or unlawful policing. >> the investigation will dig into whether the minneapolis-police department uses excessive force. including during protests or engages in discriminatory conduct. minneapolis-police leadership, pledging to cooperate, now. but it is up to our elected officials in washington to rise to the task, too. it has been almost a year, since george floyd died. and congress has yet to pass a single police-reform bill. they have yet to strike a deal on the george floyd justice in policing act. which would ban choke holds, and no-knock warrants. mandate deadly force by -- be used only as a last resort and ban racial and religious prof profiling law enforcement. that is happening as the
president joe biden is set to discuss police reform in his first address to a joint session of congress, in a week from tonight. we still have a lot of work to do. yes. let's celebrate for george floyd's family. but let's, also, honor his memory by opening our eyes to systemic injustice, in this country. the verdict in that minneapolis courtroom was not the end. it's just the beginning. i am going to talk to george floyd's cousin, as the family tries to figure out where they go from here. and as they all wait for the next step in this case. and that's sentencing. how long should derek chauvin be behind bars? >> totally, the max. you know, i think, the max because he did the maximum killing to my brother, when he put his knee on his neck for 9 minutes and 29 seconds. i love my brother. i never get him back. and my brother is doing his time in the ground, now.
many people are united behind derek chauvin's murder conviction, which he calls historic, and saying that he keeps hearing the word guilty, over and over. philonise also wants chauvin to be given the maximum sentence, because his brother is never coming back. joining me now is george floyd's cousin who is the president of the george floyd foundation. i'm so glad that you are here. thank you so much. you doing okay? >> i'm doing wonderful. thank you. >> yeah. you know, it's been so emotional, for so many, since this verdict. really, it's been an emotional year with all that is going on. how are you -- now that you have had this -- had time to have this sink in. did you get any sleep last night? how is the family doing? what's going through your head? >> well, i didn't get any sleep, last night. surprisingly. i think, it was just a, you know, the -- the adrenaline or the rush from, you know, finally, getting the convictions.
and we -- so, i tried, several times, to go to sleep, and i just couldn't go to sleep. and by the time i finally did go to sleep, it was time to get up. but i'll take that, any day, over what we have had to contend with for the last year. >> justice or accountability? how do you see this conviction? >> accountability is huge. and i think it's a measure of justice, at the same time. i think, there's still more that needs to be done, for sure. but i think, having him, finally, whether he wants to acknowledge that he's accountable. the -- the jurors deliberated. and they came to the decision that he is guilty of all the charges. so he's being held accountable, whether he wants to, or not. >> are you hopeful that this can be a turning point, for the fight for racial justice and police reform? because everyone -- everyone is hoping that this is, you know, this is the moment that's gonna propel the country forward.
and to some sort of reform. >> i am hopeful. i think -- i think, all of us are hopeful that, you know, the momentum will continue to move in the right direction. we think, obviously, getting the conviction. and having, you know, the policing acts being at the forefront right now. and having so many people in support of trying to make sure that we have a situation where all the officers who have sworn to take an oath to protect and serve are held accountable to do just that. and i feel like that we have the best environment or climate for that to take place right now. >> the grace and the strength of your -- i have said this to philonise, last night. the grace and the strength that your family has shown over the last year is truly commendable. what -- where does your family go, from here? what's the next step? >> i think, we continue, all of us, continue to work as hard as
we can to make sure that we do everything to see that the true change that we want to see takes place. each of us committed, way back in may right after all of this occurred, one of the things that we said that we would do is we would work towards making sure changes take place. and so, that is -- i think, we have demonstrated our commitment to do so. and i believe we will continue to do that. >> thank you, very much, i appreciate it. you be well. >> thank you, so much. >> thank you. police in columbus, ohio, releasing more body-cam video that shows a police officer fatally shooting a black teen, who appears to be holding a knife while charging at two others. we are going to break down what happened. that's next.
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cnn's athena jones has the latest. and i have to warn you, the video is very disturbing. >> reporter: new videos released in the case of ma'khia bryant. a 16-year-old black girl in columbus, ohio, shot by police after they say she attempted to stab two people with a knife. >> you are trying to fight us. grandma, get her now. >> reporter: upon receiving that chaotic-911 call, officers were dispatched to the scene. police say they still don't know the identity of the caller. police body-cam footage shows officer nicholas rearden approaching a group of individuals in a driveway outside a home. >> what's going on? hey, hey, hey! get down, get down! get down! >> reporter: the video shows bryant appearing to push one person to the ground. and then, lunging at another person, in pink, with what appears to be a knife in her hand. the officer then fires four shots, killing bryant.
franklin county children services says bryant was a foster child in the county's care. >> she came after me. >> reporter: tonight, newly-released body cam videos from two-additional officers show the moments after the shooting, as well. officers can be seen performing lifesaving measures on bryant. and ceilisealing off the scene. the officer has been a member of the columbus police department since 2019. police say he is on paid-administrative leave while an independent investigation takes place. columbus mayor, andrew ginther said it was a failure of the community. >> the fact we had a 16-year-old armed and involved with physical violence with other folks in that community. that's something for us to look in the mirror and say what are we doing or not doing? >> reporter: the shooting happened about-30 minutes before the guilty verdict was delivered for the murder of george floyd. at a time when police use of force around the nation, and in columbus, specifically, is under renewed scrutiny. >> and we'll be sharing more in
the hours, days, weeks ahead, that doesn't compromise the investigation because it's critically important, for us, for the public to have the information that we have. so we can be transparent, as possible. >> reporter: now, cnn's reached out to officer rearden and the police union but has not heard back. and one more thing that is important to note here. both, the mayor and the interim-police chief, are stressing transparency. the police department worked swiftly to release the initial police body-camera footage last night. chief michael woods saying his goal is to share as much information with the public as possible, as quickly as possible. this was especially important, last night, because you had videos shot by bystanders that were already circulating on social media. sparking outrage. don. >> athena jones reporting. athena, thank you so much. now, i want to bring in former captain of the missouri state highway patrol, ron johnson, who was tasked with restoring peace in ferguson after michael brown's death. good evening. here we are.
discussing another shooting. captain, the mayor of columbus saying that officer rearden acted to protect another, young girl. what did rearden have to consider, in that moment? >> well, he had to consider if the other, young girl was going to inflict serious injury or death on another. and so, in that moment, he had to decide to take action, based on that. and that's a part of the training. and that's what the public expects officers to do. to protect and serve. >> so, do you, in that moment, do you think that he was doing what his training showed him? i know, that we don't have all the evidence. but if -- when you look at that video, what do you -- what do you make of it? >> on the surface, it appears so. but i think, you know, i have said always, we need to let the investigation go through. and -- and look at everything and every vantage point. but on the surface, it would seem like, that he took the action that he felt that he needed to take in that moment. because as you can see, it's a
matter of seconds or less, you know, when you play that video in real time. and so, he has to analyze that in -- in -- in a -- in a short moment of time. >> yeah. in real time and a chaotic time. listen. the city acting very quickly to release this body -- the body-cam videos. but you say they don't tell the full story. can you explain that, please, captain? >> well, i think we just saw that in the -- in the george floyd trial. there were many videos. and you had to analyze it all from different angles. and you had to see what happened before that, when the fight started, when the officer got out of the car. so, i think we needed to see every-vantage point. we know there's -- probably, video was taken before, maybe by someone's phone camera. so let's look at it all. you know? but right now, there is such distrust with african-americans and police, that they want a full investigation of everything. and even when something appears to be justified, it is going to be questioned until we bridge
this gap. and there is a sense of accountability within the profession. >> okay. so, then let's talk about that because you keep saying appears to be. my question is -- people are saying -- let's go through one. so, why did he -- why not use a taser? >> well, tasers don't have the same impact. tasers. both, you know, prongs have to hit. and the distance that you're from, you're from the person. and will that actually stop that act from going? you know, when someone's wielding a knife and it's a chance for serious injury or death. and so, the officer has to take all that into account in a matter of moments. >> uh-huh. what -- why not shoot to injure? >> you know, we hear that about shoot to injure. you know, but officers are trained to -- to shoot at a certain point in the target. and so, you have to make sure you're -- if you're -- you're going to stop that transaction. and so, let's say, that you
shoot someone in the leg. is that going to stop them from wielding a knife? and so, you've got to stop that. and i think if, you know, if you shoot someone in the leg and they continue on and they stab the person. then, we're going to be here with another conversation. but i do think that's something we can look at, in some situations. practices of -- of -- of how we use our weapons. and so, that may be something we need to look at in our training and i have discussed that before. and a lot of people throughout our country ask that same question. >> why -- why four times, and not just one? four shots, and not just one? >> and right now, i think we need to let the investigation pan out. because i can't answer that question. >> yeah. >> captain ron johnson, i appreciate your time and your expertise. thank you so much. >> thank you. lebron james and dwayne wade saying justice for george floyd is a win for accountability. yesterday's verdict, really, is a big step in that process. so, how do athletes use their platform to keep the momentum going? that is the question for jalen
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look. this -- this is where, really, where the conversation is going -- i couldn't take my eyes off the sports folks today, as they were discussing this intersection between politics, race, policing, and sports. major-sports stars, teams, leagues, speaking out following the guilty verdict against the ex-officer, who killed george floyd. lebron james tweeting out the word, accountability. all caps. that was shortly after the news. but even with the guilty verdict, the fight for police reform is far from over. so, how will athletes keep moving forward on racial justice? so joining me now to discuss is former-indiana pacers star, espn analyst, jalen rose. i had you guys on. i could barely get my workout in watching all of you guys today. seriously. it's -- it was fascinating to
see your take on it, versus the cnn take on it. even the business channel's take on how it affects the markets. all of that, right? because it's all -- all of it intersects. jay, i am so happy to have you on. thank you. first of all, what was it like waiting on this verdict? and then, hearing guilty, guilty, guilty? >> thank you for having me on, don. i am a huge fan of the show. it -- it's -- it's a little unnerving, that i can watch a video of my own two eyes of 9 minutes and 29 seconds of an officer with his knee to the neck of george floyd. while he's handcuffed. >> uh-huh. >> and i'm looking at the court proceedings, don, and there's some people that get up there and say, maybe, he could have died because of the exhaust? >> uh-huh. >> and then, there are people that talked about his health concerns. >> uh-huh. >> and so, as a black person, in america, i felt exactly how you felt. as a matter of fact, exactly how we felt, on january 6th, when we
looked at the capitol being stormed. and we said, what would happen if that was a different race doing that? and so, therefore, i didn't, necessarily, believe that there were going to be three-guilty pleas. you know why? because they're barely guilty pleas when these situations take place. >> you must have been watching me yesterday because i said the same thing. sorry, go on. >> no question. but i want to highlight one important thing that seems to get lost. and i would love any law enforcement to come on to answer this for me, as well. in the george floyd case, they falsified the police report. >> right. >> in the breonna taylor case, they falsified the police report. what happens in those situations? >> uh-huh. uh-huh. >> what kind of discipline happens, from within, on those? that should be automatic punishment, discipline, firing. lose your pension. something very strong. but since those type of measures aren't in place, we kind of get to these scenarios that we're in
now. but i'm really happy for george floyd, rest in peace, and his family. that they got a sense of justice for their loved one. but as you know, there are going to be more. what's next? >> so, it sounds like -- i -- i think -- i think, in this moment. i mean, you are talking about these things -- well, let's put it this way. everything that you just mentioned sort of exposes when you look at the initial reporting from the police department in minneapolis, right? they were exposed because we got to see the real report. and then, we know what happened when it played out, in court. so, are you -- are you optimistic? before we go on to talk more about sports. are you optimistic? >> i'm not optimistic, until i see some actual reform happening. >> are you hopeful? >> the george -- i -- i'm hopeful. but here's an analogy i'll leave for you. since you were talking about sports. here's how i feel. when the justice for george
floyd happens, it's all equated to a sporting event in football when you talk about field position. so the game starts, don, we look up at the score, it's 400 years of slavery to zero. we just got a score with george floyd. but we still need to continue to play the game. to get field position. we know we're not going to win the game. it's not happening, in our lifetime. however, we owe society, our community, and each other, to continue to fight for this field position. and that's what we're doing. but, a couple of things have really only changed the dynamics. number one, smartphones. smartphones have unlocked the violence that has been perpetrated, by police, for so, very long, against people of color. the other thing is protest. there is a reason why, even if you look over my shoulder, that's one of the most iconic pictures in sports. it have nothing to do with the
score of the game. because people know, the power of an athlete and an entertainer in the community. that's why they're told to shut up and dribble. >> are you talking about ali? >> absolutely. that's the ali summit. >> so, let me ask you, then. before -- before -- before we go. so, you think about ali. and you think about shut up and dribble, right? when you think -- um -- about colin kaepernick. all of these efforts. how critical are they, to the movement? >> they're extremely important. that's why people are telling you to stick to sports. because they know that, don. they know the power and the influence in the voice of athletes and entertainers in their community. and how important it is for us to invest our time, our energy, our money, back, into our community. when we do that, we see change. today, i was just doing a recording for more than a vote about voter-suppression laws. voter-suppression laws. 250 laws in atlanta have been changed since the election. it's happening in michigan. it's happening in texas.
it continues to happen. so, smartphones, protests, and the ability to vote. those three things have been game-changers. let's continue to do each. >> jalen. let me tell you this. i mean it. you are welcome back here, anytime. i love watching you. i love -- >> thank you. >> -- what you are contributing, what you are doing, and your perspective. please, come back. thank you for your time. okay? >> my pleasure. i appreciate the love. >> and i want those glasses. thank you. jalen rose, thank you very much. americans demanding justice and equal treatment. they don't just want action in the courtroom. they want action in congress. but is any legislation or police reform possible, when republicans have become the party of obstruction? -free life. honey, i'm home from my really important job! scuff defense. honey! scuff defense. [ chuckles ] scuff! -defense!
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for republicans who don't think there is anything wrong with the current state of the party, they may want to listen to former president george w. bush. who calls the gop isolationist protectionist and nativist. is it time for some big changes in the party's positions? let's discuss. senior commentator john kasich is here, the former republican governor of ohio. i think i know what he's going to say about this. john, good evening to you. i'm so glad you're here. you know, we just witnessed a historic verdict, a former police officer convicted of murdering a black man. quite honestly, it's rare, if you look back in history. now people are demanding systemic change. but republicans have been a wall of opposition in policing and voting rights legislation, gun legislation. are they on the wrong side of history? >> well, they're on the wrong side of those issues, don. we talked about this briefly. and i will be brief here, when
we had our terrible situations here and we have one now we're having to deal with in columbus, we created a task force on community and police to take a look at the use of force, the use of deadly force. people have to be trained to it. you have to collect data to see if there's inherent bias, all you have to recruit people to reflect the neighborhood. all those things are critical. that doesn't mean you're taking one side or the other. you've been trying to be fair on this. as you point out, police have to do their job, the community wants them there, but they don't want abuse. a lot of communities are just hoping this will go away. but without training, don, without adequate training to what the standards are, you're always going to have problems. that doesn't mean it's going to take care of all of your problems, but that is what you have to do. that's a question of humanity, it's a question of justice, it's a question of fairness for everyone involved. the community, the police officer. get them around a table, hash it out. the same thing with guns. we have too many problems with guns.
nobody wants to take people's second amendment away, but it's time to get on top of that issue. >> yeah. >> the reason i've been more positive about bush here is because he represents sort of the more hopeful wing of the partied on immigration and thing like that. we've got to open ourselves up. >> yeah. listen, i want to -- how long is this, 30 seconds? because i want to spend some time with you. listen, you heard what george bush had to say, right? that he was disappointed in the party, that were becoming more nativist. john boehner saying the same thing. what do you think? you have two former gop leaders who don't recognize their current party right now. is this party becoming more isolationist, more nativist? >> tug-of-war going on, don, i think. i think bush and boehner are emerging. i wish they had been out sooner and i wish they had been speaking out earlier. but the fact is they're starting to emerge and they're starting to talk, and i welcome it. i think it's critically important.
again, they're hopeful, they're they're not the eyeore branch where everything is dark, bad, and people are out to get people. this is the more hopeful wing of the party, of which i'm a member. >> okay, here we go. do you think that, listen, i know that is what you're like, what the former president george bush is like, and what john boehner is saying that he's like. many people are calling john boehner with his book and what he's saying revisionist history, because he ushered in the tea party, which ushered in the whole trump era. but do you think that what you want for the party, that that's over, those days are gone and this is the new republican party we have right now? >> no. no, i don't think so. don, it may mean there's going to have to be another crushing on the part of republicans for them to wake up and realize those negative approaches simply don't work. >> people like you don't have the numbers. i don't want to be insulting. but the number of people who think like you guys -- >> it can change. >> you don't have the numbers.
okay, go on. >> but it can change, don. the other thing is, i don't buy this business that if you don't kowtow to donald trump, you can't get elected. i believe you can if you have great ideas and you're a great presenter. i won elections because of ideas, energy, saying what it is i was going to do. and that's how -- that's what leaders do. that's how you get elected. you can't give up on the fact that the wing of the party is now tied to trump. there's a lot of them, state party officials. but local officials are tired of this thing with trump. they're just tired of it. that doesn't mean there aren't people in the party that are not still there. it doesn't mean that there is not a significant number. you're asking me so i'm giving you the honest answer. i haven't given up. if i thought the republican party would continue to be negative and dark, i would leave. >> yeah. >> i don't want to be associated with something that will be negative and get people more depressed and play the blame game and scapegoats for a party that doesn't recognize the fact
that we have to deal with things like guns and race and issues like that. i wouldn't stay in it. of course i think you can win it. >> and i appreciate that you were candid. i didn't cut you off. i let you speak. i let you say your piece. thank you. >> thank you, sir, i appreciate it. one day after the guilty verdict in the derek chauvin trial in minneapolis, people in minneapolis putting daunte wright to rest. truly mixed emotions tonight.