tv Bloomberg Daybreak Europe Bloomberg October 4, 2021 1:00am-2:00am EDT
the alliance will discuss policy today amid rising crude prices. we speak to our dust. boris johnson says brexit britain must adapt among food and fuel shortages. we are live in manchester. good morning. it is all about the core, the super heart core, the pci. in 1999, britney spears was top of the charts. we have not seen hard-core inflection. britney spears and inflation. there was a river in 1999. that is the essence. the core is crucial. the gap is closing to taper. jump through the window. good morning. dani: oops, inflation did it again? that is the best pun i've got. the question that comes to the fore is if we have core pce
running so hot, does growth keep up. does the trade move from reflation to stagflation. you want a stagflation environment with your portfolio. manus: i know you will talk about duration. i had an idea. it caught my eye last night. this is what no dia had to say. please ask the czar. she is referring to russia. stagflation, is it coming? economic momentum is hanging by a thread, as the fate of the euro area is now in the hands of putin's national gas. gas is trading the equivalent of $190 a barrel of oil. that is what opec-plus faces today. dani: let me show you what investors have been facing. it is all about cutting back your long-duration exposure. you can see it in the big tech taking a hit and the etf.
here you are looking at long bond etf. that is over $8 billion coming out of that fund. manus: it is indeed. there is a little bit of a shakedown in equities. let's take it away with the board. dani: u.s. futures not moving as high as we saw on friday. they had gained more than 1% in the market session. u.s. futures and asia not able to sustain any gains. you are looking at one basis point lower on your 10 yield, still below 10.5. we are under $80 a barrel when it comes to brent crude. manus: let's set the agenda. evergrande is at the top of it. we are waiting on the next red hot headline from hong kong amid reports of a major transaction. what could that be? juliette saly, what do we reckon? what is the price of success? juliette: we did see evergrande shares and its property services
arm halted, suspended from trade. we were unclear as to what that would be because there had not been an official announcement to the stock exchange. this redhead coming through that it is regarding a major transaction announcement, speculating it could be on the report we have already seen from the chinese financial news platform about hobson development planning to acquire a 51% stake in the unit. there has been a huge liquidity crunch. the market cap trading 15% of its liquidation value. it has been reading have it -- wreaking havoc through the hang seng. the trading suspension could be related to a massive asset disposal. if we continue to flip the boards, we know that evergrande shares have tumbled by about 80% this year, bonds going to levels that suggests they are bracing for a default. we are hearing news of a 51 percent stake in the properties services unit.
this coming through as a hefty discount. something like 5.1 billion hong kong dollars with a market liquidity cost of $7 billion, which has been reflected on one of our charts, bringing relief to the credit woes. dani: juliette saly on breaking news watch for us. to america, and progressive democrats are looking for ways to rescue president biden's stalled economic agenda, opening the door to scaling back social spending. house speaker nancy pelosi has set october 31 as the new target date to pass the stalled $550 billion bipartisan infrastructure bill. let's get to the details with our bloomberg reporter, bruce einhorn. at this point, do we have any signs of progress in these very much stalled and contentious negotiations? bruce: the negotiations are underway, and we are starting to hear the two sides. we know that the reconciliation
bill, the one that has all of the health, education, climates, all of those bits, that is the $3.5 trillion bill, joe manson -- joe manchin has said he wants it to be less. another democrat has said there is no way, it has to be higher. we are seeing where they are putting their redlines. we also know that alexandria ocasio-cortez, one of the leading progressives in the house, she went on the sunday talk shows and was talking about how there is a way to bring down the price tag of some of the things they want in the bill so instead of having programs go for the full 10 years, they could only have over five years, fully funded for five years. that would lower your the price tag significantly which, which
could get closer to the amount joe manchin wants. that is what we are looking at. this will go on for quite a while because nancy pelosi has said now that she is looking for a vote by the end of the month. we are in negotiations. the democratic party is like a coalition. you have different groups, different interests. there is going to be ongoing negotiations. we will have to see for a while, but we will have to be patient. manus: to quote the president, it could be six months, six days, six minutes, but they will get there. and we will be with you as soon as that comes across the tape. bruce einhorn with the latest on the infrastructure bill. european finance ministers meet in luxembourg today amid the worst energy crisis the bloc has seen in years. european natural gas prices jump to records, signaling the supply shortage will only get worse as we go into the winter season. maria tadeo has finished chasing chairman politicians.
she is in luxembourg. the debate, how concerned will they be about this energy situation, energy crisis? maria: good morning, manus. yes, we luxembourg. behind me -- yes, we are back in luxembourg. i am hoping you will get to see it behind me in the next hour. today, the finance ministers have the competing narratives. we know the european economy had been regaining momentum. a lot of those are due to the successful vaccination campaign. but we also have tight supply going into the winter months. the risk is it could imperil and hurt the european recovery, but also translate into household heating. we know last week every energy
price went up to a record high. friday, european governments had been taking measures to stop the wholesale cost being translated to households, but they worry some of the momentum could be coming off. social tensions are boiling into winter months, which could be very cold this year. there are three questions to answer. one is how long will they subsidize the cheaper energy prices, and if they don't, who will pay for the bills? dani: maria asking the important questions. that is bloomberg's maria tadeo. let's get over to the first word news with juliette saly. juliette: prime minister boris johnson says he will not hold back on immigration to solve the u.k.'s shortage. it has left supermarkets bear and gas stations dry. the party is holding its annual conference. >> the way forward for our
country is not to just pull the big lever on him controlled immigration. juliette: new covid vaccines will be needed next year according to the head of biontech. he says a new formula will likely be needed by mid 2022 to protect against future mutations of the virus. he is warning that new strains may emerge that could evade booster shots and the body's immune response. document leak has revealed how the superrich hide money in offshore accounts. the international consortium of investigative journalists dubbed the papers the pandora papers. they say secret a clamps includes -- the secret documents include tony blair and associates of vladimir putin. global news 24 hours a day, on air and at bloomberg quicktake, powered by more than 2700 journalists and analysts in more than 120 countries. this is bloomberg. manus?
manus: thank you very much. just a few things to put on your radar as we kick into gear. watch for inflation, anything on inflation. opec-plus meets. it is virtual. how would the rising crude prices impact the production policy? dani: here in the u.k., the tory party conference kicks off, where tom mackenzie will be there. energy prices will also be high on the agenda there. with pressure building over those fuel shortages and living costs, they are set to announce a 500 million pound expansion of britain's job program. we will stick on this theme from reflation to stagflation. we will discuss heading into the final quarter of the year with our guest. that is next, manus. manus: plus, we speak with a guest about the open -- the opec meeting today.
>> inflation is not going down. inflation is hot. if you do the pure statistical calculation, it is very unlikely we will get to the target. they will be revising the target up yet again. inflation is a global issue. but i call them stagflationary winds, because they need not result in a stagflationary track if you get a policy adjustment. dani: hot. mohamed el-erian on inflation. how big of a threat is
stagflation? let's us that question to fiona frick. i know this is a topic you have been paying close attention to. thank you for joining us this morning. where do you pin the chances that the economy slips into a stagflationary environment? fiona: obviously, the risk has been going up. we have seen inflation risks for a while, but in the past, we used to see inflation as a positive. now, we start to see inflation have an impact on earnings and the global economy. so obviously the risk of inflation is more acute than it was months ago and makes us go out on risky assets. manus: the back some risks, but you have redeployed. you break it down into the stag and the flation . the focus could turn onto the stag. where have you heard back, and how have you redeployed?
fiona: it is interesting because we went from a narrative of goldilocks, which was a sort of ideal environment but you have a little inflation, then you have interest rates and policies very dovish. now we see the narrative has changed and we go to something like stagflation. policymakers are being more dispersed. we had been overweight in the risky assets, and now we have neutralized this. we invest in some commodities and the u.s. dollar, because we believe it is a good hedge, a defensive environment. dani: you say you want to pare back on some of the higher risks, but we look at where spreads are unchanged.
is this where you want to play around in? fiona: not really, because if we believe that growth will be coming back and the risk of stagflation ceases, we will go into the equities space in go back there. manus: dani and i started the debate on sunday night. you have to ask the czar. you have to ask the russians in terms of the flow. energy prices has left economic momentum hanging by a thread. the whole euro area hangs in the hands of natural gas from putin. my question is very much line one, sentence two. economic momentum hangs by a thread. is it that perilous? fiona: we are very dependent on russia in gas.
it explains partially why we have a crisis in energy. it is not the whole story. there are also conditions that explained that for the u.k. and some problems in north africa. the problem of inflation goes beyond energy. it is also in other areas like microchips. with the cost of transportation, a labor shortage. we can see that in germany. i would say the problem of inflation is more global than just the energy crisis today. dani: that translates into earnings as well. we see that upgrades start to slow. how unknown is the fourth quarter right now? fiona: it is very unknown because between the crisis of energy, the crisis of inflation on the larger scale due to the
labor shortages, and also the crisis of evergrande in china, which could spill over, i would say the risk of the fourth quarter is quite important, and that is why we are quite prudent in submitting our allocations. manus: you are playing to my inner bear, which is sitting parentally waiting to -- perennially waiting to break out. in moments of crisis, and i have many, where do i go for protection? do i buy some bonds? would it be shockingly bad for me? fiona: for the moment, we prefer to hide where inflation will break even because we think bonds could still go up, especially if there is a change in monetary policy. we by cyclical shares with
cyclical commodities, and we buy dollar because we think the dollar is a different place for currency. dani: you are going to drive manus to embrace his inner bear even more. you mentioned evergrande and china. what is the mechanism for transmission if that does indeed go on to affect global earnings and global markets? fiona: first of all, we don't think evergrande is a moment. there is no systemic risk with evergrande because it is much less connected to the rest of the financial system. nevertheless, evergrande goes bankrupt, then perhaps other players have the same. perhaps it has an impact on china where real estate is a large part of gdp.
we imagine the government will do everything it can to refinance evergrande. beijing is putting liquidity into the markets in order to make sure there is not a shortage there. but we don't think they will save evergrande because it is part of the shift they want to do on the long-term approach to be less about real estate. manus: thank you so much. fiona frick, unigestion ceo. thank you very much. coming up, evergrande's woes as shares in the troubled chinese firm are halted in hong kong. waiting on reports for a major transaction. what could it be, and how will it quell the angst? this is bloomberg. ♪
dani: it is bloomberg daybreak: europe." i am dani burger in london, alongside manus cranny in dubai. evergrande halted trading amid reports that the developer agreed to sell a controlling stake in the unit to raise much-needed cash. a lot of headlines coming fast and thick. keeping on track with them is stephen engle. lots of reports here of the key evergrande asset sale. what is the latest we know over the sale. stephen: this is what the chinese government would like to see being the unwinding of evergrande, with a key asset sale. they would like to sell the vehicle unit, no sale. they have tried to sell their tower in hong kong, no sale. they did sell a bank recently to the shenyang government to pay
back debts to that lender. the government coming in slightly there, a local government. but this time, this is a key asset. evergrande property services is the property management arm. it is after the big taking of 80% of the evergrande shares. it is the most valuable asset in the evergrande portfolio. it is a listed company here in hong kong. they are suspended, as well as evergrande today. through this crisis, the shares have not been suspended, so there was lots of speculation. will this be an announcement of the bond coupon payments, or the big jumbo fortune enterprise maturity that was yesterday? was it going to be the debt restructuring we have long been awaiting? but no, there is a new site in china -- a news site in china reporting they will be selling a 51% stake in evergrande services.
in what i thought was way out of the ballpark, a 40% premium over the last traded market price last thursday, $5.1 billion u.s., it did not sound right to me. sure enough, that news media site has corrected that. that 51% reported purchase is going to value the company at about 40% -- or at about a 28% discount. that makes more sense. but we are still waiting for that announcement to come to the market. manus: anymore news on the evergrande jumbo fortune? they have an opaque bond, some would refer to it as. there are a lot of caveats. they have a number of days they have to make an interest payment. there are a lot of nuances. any clarity on that? stephen: generally, a principal
payment, there would not be the same kind of grace period you would get on the coupon payments of interest that we saw the last couple weeks, where they missed $127 million -- $277 million i should say in missed payments. there will be three more coupon payments that are due next week on october 11. this one is much more opaque. it is the majority, the principle that is due, and there has been no word yet on whether evergrande has that bond or whether payments are coming from, and whether they are going to fulfill that obligation. but if they don't buy today, since yesterday was the maturity date, it was a sunday, today is the day. we have not heard any word. manus: we are going to keep our eyes on that headline. thank you for the context around evergrande. you know i am always keen on
>> good morning from bloomberg's european headquarters where it is 6:30 a.m. in the city of london. i am dani burger manus cranny alongside me in dubai. this is "bloomberg daybreak: europe." here is what you need to know. a major transaction. the embattled -- opec-plus meets. they will discuss their production policy amid rising
crude prices. plus boris johnson says brexit britain must adopt a mid fuel -- adapt amid fuel shortages. we are on the ground. good morning. happy monday. it is all about putting it back in the inflation. the inflationary narrative. the ceo wants to move out of risk and buy some of those inflationary breakevens. manus: that is where she wants to deploy the money. the court is running hot, hot, hot. the high since 1999. that has invoked a distinct shift across the curve and it is perhaps most resplendent in the longer end of the curve. dani: it is all about taking
away, paring back your long-duration exposure in this type of environment, especially if you will see bond yields move higher. growth does not keep up with that. we saw them have major outflows and that means you pare back on long bonds. bond etf's from blackrock, one of the biggest daily outflows since march 2020. manus: that's $20 billion -- $16 billion in it and it was 1.2 billion dollars in the space of one day. goes back to the narrative between johnson and hamed, which was at the fed should take this window, closing in terms of their ability to actually taper in a timely and constructive manner without causing any further insight give from the bond market. let's go through the bonds and equities. waiting on the evergrande news to roll through. our part of the world.
you have got really a hunkering down, potentially bunkering. that is a major hub for us. let's have a look at oil. would opec add more oil? more than 400,000 barrels that they are doing per month. they want to buy the dollar. inflationary environment. is that what they want to do? 147 is where you are. put on 20 basis points in the space of september. more to go on the potential for a taper re-rating. to the crypto, we have the pictures. let me to show you some of the images. some tough impact across oman. these are the images. really quite serious. readying for the risk of that
cyclone to have a little bit more of an impact. flights are canceled at the moment between the uae and all men -- oman. the storm moves into oman. there is a death toll of five in oman on monday. fishermen from iran remain missing. it is bearing down on our geography. let's get back to the markets. the crude oil market is rallying. it certainly has been throughout september. 15%. tightening global supply and an energy crisis in the making. increasing demand. opec plus's supply has put brent over for the first time in three years. the question for opec watchers on monday would be whether the block picks up production. let's take a listen. >> the recovery will continue.
it may be slow. it may be bumpy. >> the demand for jet fuel will pick up. at the same time, we are going into winter and we do not have enough gas the world form and that is going to lead to a surge in demand so it could potentially happen sooner. >> we still have a long way to go. a lot stronger for oil demand. >> we stick to our $80 target with potential risk, maybe even tonight -- $10 higher than that. >> and then you create a new cycle. manus: they track every barrel around the world, founder of energy aspects. you say that they would not dare add anymore. you don't think that they will add more than the 400 million
barrels because of saudi. what would it take to stir his royal highness to add more than the 400,000 barrels at the moment? good morning. >> good morning. don't put words in my mouth. they still have caution. we are coming into winter. more important, oil being pulled out. the biggest reason it is being pulled up is because of gas prices. this is the fallout of the policy of the west. saudi arabia did very well. my conversation is that they are keenly following this right now. they have been calling -- we need more investments in oil and gas. demand is not falling any time soon but the western world policy of climate change has meant that supplies are falling far quicker than demand.
this is the very first of the inflationary impacts we are seeing. there will be a lot more to come. this is a wider issue. adding more than 400,000 barrels per day will not necessarily solve the problem right now. and also, a lot of the longevity of gas prices to this winter will depend on the weather. i'm not saying they will add more than 400,000 barrels per day down the line but today, we think that is unlikely. >> fair enough. down the line, will it be these macro pressures or is there any price clued could surpass that would pressure opec to more quickly add barrels online? >> i would say do not focus on the price of crude. focus on the volatility. saudi arabia is very keen to reduce volatility both on the upside and on the downside. that is the key. if suddenly spices spike, underlying the oil market,
inventories are superlow everywhere and that does lead us to the possibility of price spikes. then they will be very quick to react. this time last month, prices were at 625 and everyone was asking are they going to cut, are they going to pause? we are still within a range, 70 to $80 range. as long as we are within that, the urgency to act beyond what is required from the current deal is limited. manus: i caught up with the secretary-general last week. i have to say, that man gets an oscar for sometimes talking to me and not giving me an answer. he said it would be a bumpy ride. but i want to get your view in terms of the oversupply. we are caught in this eye of the storm. jeff curry talking about 10 years underinvestment. bank of america at $100 oil. you say we are going to go into an oversupplied market in 2022. is that one of the things that
will hold opec-plus in restraint and if so, how oversupplied will we be? amrita: that is on our view. that is opec severe. if you look at the secretariat's view, they are saying we will be in an oversupplied market next year which was another reason why the opec-plus ministers are cautious. we have been bullish way before the banks turn bullish. we have been talking about $100 oil next year. late next year into 2023. well over a couple of years precisely because of under in -- underinvestment. if anything, banks are coming around towards what we have been saying for a while. what is critical is at the joint technical committee came out even two days ago. we are expecting 1.4 million barrels per day of oversupply next year. if that is the case, it makes it difficult for ministers to add
barrels to the market right now. dani: you write about how opec says they will not reach peak oil in the next 25 years and that is not necessarily what you are seeing so what is opec getting wrong in this forecast? amrita: for us, i think the critical thing is that we do think oil demand will start peeking when we talk about oil demand, transportation demand. gasoline, diesel, late 20 20's, early 20 30's. total liquids, that still continues to grow into the mid-20 30's and then it starts to peak. opec in their long-term report that they pushed out last week, they don't see a peak until 2021. in the horizon of 2025, oil does not peak. given everything we have seen with regards to efficiency, electric cars, there is going to be a push that will apply to oil. i am saying it is incredibly hard to get oil demand below 100 million barrels per day. it comes back down toward 100
but it does not fall below that. we are not aligned in the fact that we do see a peak and it comes down but i would really warned that it does not come below 100 million barrels per day which means we absolutely need to get investments, otherwise we will keep getting high oil and gas prices. manus: i wonder how much the spare capacity that citigroup talk about is deliverable. can we give it to gas? we started the show talking about gas being the equivalent of $190. that is a big economic impact. how tight is the gas market? how under reserved are we? what is next in that market in that story? amrita: it is a fascinating story, isn't it? the biggest story is european stocks are low mainly because russian exports have been low.
russia's own demand has been very strong so they have to do their own inventories. there is nord stream 2 and that should start of next year. we are expecting more flows from russia next year. that should ease prices. this again goes back to the very first thing we can talk about. energy transition. at least demand for fossil fuels has fallen which means gas is baseload. structurally, we think that this is a higher gas price environment. yes, prices will calm off current levels but they will remain much higher than we have seen in the last 10 years. that is the new reality of it. if there is a winter, prices go much higher. on friday, china came out and said buy at all costs. this is the crux of it. we have to make choices between economic growth and climate change and i think that is why we should stop demonizing fossil
fuels. dani: fair enough. the gloves are off. it is a boxing match for energy prices. so great to have you on with us today, giving us a reality check before the opec meeting. amrita sen, thanks again for joining sp at first word news with juliette saly. juliette: the house looking for rules to rescue president biden's stalled domestic agenda, opening the door to scaling back sums ending. a vote was delayed late last week after progressives balked at a standalone infrastructure bill. >> one of the ideas that is out there is to fully fund what we can fully fund but may be instead of doing it for 10 years, you fully fund it for five years. juliette: a new covid vaccine will be needed next year, according to the head of biontech, speaking to the financial times be at he says a
new formula will be needed by mid-2022 to protect against future mutations of the virus. he is warning new drains may emerge that can invade mr. schatz and the body's immune response. dutere says he is retiring from politics and will not be seeking the vice presidency in 2022. prior to the 2016 election, he said he was retiring. he ultimately ran for president and won. the list of presidential contenders will not be finalized until mid-november. global news, 24 hours a day, on air and on bloomberg quicktake, powered by more than 2700 journalists and analysts in more than 120 countries. this is bloomberg. manus. manus: thank you very much. coming up on the show, head of the ruling conservative party conference, boris johnson says with supply issues gripping the nation are linked to a post-brexit period of adjustment. we are to manchester and the conference. this is bloomberg. ♪
>> what we cannot do is, in all these centers, simply go back to the old model, reach for the lever called uncontrolled immigration, get people in. > and that is part of the plan. >> let me ask about something else. >> there will be a period of adjustment but that is i think what we need to see. >> a very fiery interview. boris johnson saying the u.k. is in a period of adjustment after brexit as the country faces gas shortages and supply issues. johnson's ruling conservatives are gathering in manchester for the first in-person conference
in two years. tom mackenzie on the ground at manchester, keeping tabs for us on the latest in the conference with cracking interviews to come. tom, thank you for joining us. what has the prime minister been saying about how he plans to tackle these labor shortages in the u.k.? tom: this is a prime minister that comes into the conservative party conference. the first one since 2019. facing a range of very serious pressures. you have been discussing those in terms of the second week of this petrol price crisis, this rush. the military will be deployed from today. supermarket shelves running empty. price pressures in terms of record energy prices impacting utility bills, utility companies themselves going to the walls. the cost of living for households across the u.k. going up, inflation at the highest level in nine years. what boris johnson has been pushing back on is the fact that he will go for a quick solution
to labor shortages that many are behind what is happening in the price pressures, the petrol pump, and the shortages in supermarkets. we know that they have allowed her 5000 visas for drivers from europe. that timeframe will be expended it looks like until the new year but he pushed back on the idea that we will see any radical changes to allow far greater numbers of foreign workers to lead those labor shortages. a high skilled and high wage economy. it looks like you will be trying to push through the pressures that the economy is facing now for those long-term goals of having higher wages or higher skilled economy. there is discontent across the country about some of these issues and discontent in the party as well. some present a clearer plan or strategy for dealing with these issues. manus: one can say you are welcomed to british politics.
it is far from the great hall of china. you are in manchester in a hotel, so the grandiosity is less far behind. but what do we expect the chancellor to deliver today? if boris is not able to open the doors on immigration, will he backstop the economy again or is that too far? tom: that is the key question. the exhibition hall in manchester is a work of art, a beautiful piece of architecture. not quite the grandiosity of the great hall of the people but a more relaxed atmosphere. rishi sunak will be under pressure to try and come out with some policy measures and address these concerns hitting the pockets of households but also corporations as well across the country. we know he will outline plans for 500 million pounds to help people who are in low-wage households and that is part of his focus. also reskilling for the modern
economy and for the high wage economy that boris johnson is going for. trying to improve productivity. something politicians have wrestled with for generations. this is also a chancellor who very much has one eye on october 27 and that is when he will unveil his budget and the spending review for the next three years or so. he is also a chancellor who will want to address conservative party members here and stressed that he is someone who wants to balance the budget and have firepower ahead of any future election. some people suggesting that that alexion could come as soon as 2023, 2024. he is trying to strike that balance after spending very heavily to offset the pressures of the pandemic. he will reassure foreign investors that britain is a good bet and some are turning cautious after the pound falling 2.3% in the last six months. nomura saying they are turning parish on sterling.
also, the u.k. could face a recession next year. that is not consensus but these are the concerns that rishi sunak will try and address in manchester. manus: lots of calls. the bank of england could be caught on the back foot. great to see you. enjoy the political season in manchester. he has a host of guests at the conference. coming up on the show, the finance ministers gather in luxembourg. they are facing one of the worst energy crises in decades. ♪
manus: it is your monday morning edition of "bloomberg daybreak: europe." i am manus cranny in dubai. dani burger. they are facing one of the worst energy crises that the block has seen in decades. power prices jumping to records, signaling the shortage will only get worse this winter season. let's bring in maria tadeo in luxembourg. the concern for europe is that energy demand picks up. we go through a cold map. the hands of economic growth in europe lie in the hands of mr. putin. that is an extreme call. how delicate is a situation? good morning. -- the situation? good morning. maria: it is a provocative call but nonetheless a reflection of reality. this is the story about an economy that is picking up and regaining momentum. the demand will go up. it is also about the types of
play. russia runs a very tight ship. for finance ministers meeting today, they will talk about energy prices. energy prices going from record to record. there is also the other conversation that seeps in with this which is what happens with the inflation picture? he energy crisis is seen as a wildcard going into the final quarter of the year and also the element that could derail what until now has been an optimistic forecast for the european union so there is real concern here especially also when you look at how this may feed into households. dani: definitely a very important conversation for markets and politics as well. maria tadeo, thank you so much. we should expect more flow coming from russia. manus: absolutely. gas is trading at the equivalent
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