this is bbc news. we'll have the headlines and all the main news stories for you at the top of the hour, as newsday continues — straight after hardtalk. welcome to hardalk, i'm stephen sackur. south africa is in a long—term flirtation with political and economic chaos. mass unemployment, power cuts, and rising crime are stoking discontent and instability. my guest today is julius malema, a former anc loyalist—turned—populist enemy of the ruling party. could one of africa's richest nations be consumed by insurrectionist violence?
julius malema in bloemfontein, south africa, welcome to hardtalk. thank you very much. mr malema, south africans are facing a very grave economic crisis. there's deep uncertainty in the country. why are you adding to that uncertainty by calling for the removal of president ramaphosa? it's the most logical thing that, when a leader of a current government doesn't perform well, or the country
is in a crisis, that leader should leave office and give others an opportunity who can come and do a much better work. because i don't think that mr ramaphosa has got a coherent plan as to how he'll save south africa. but that's not the way democracy works, mr malema. mr ramaphosa has a mandate given to him by the south african people. and, indeed, if you look at the business community, if we're talking about the economy, it seems business leaders think that removing ramaphosa would actually make south africa's situation worse. no, democracy works like that. that's why our constitution provides for the resignation of the president, or impeachment, or a motion of no—confidence. so the democracy you are trying to define now, you can't find it in any of the definitions of democracy.
presidents from time to time, including prime ministers, will be asked to step down. you say he should be impeached — you seem to believe he's committed crimes. but there is absolutely no evidence so far that he has committed the crimes that you're accusing him of. there was money which was stored at this house, not declared to the reserve bank, to financial intelligence, to the banks, to sars — south african revenue services. nothing has happened. ramaphosa went to look for people who stole from him from another country without having opened a case with the police, and used the police facility to pursue those who stole from him, managed to get some of them, went to torture them at his house. when you say there is no evidence, i don't know what you are talking about, because... well, you've just cast a host of different accusations and allegations.
mr ramaphosa is quite clear that the cash that was apparently found in his farm was cash that he got from selling livestock, and he's absolutely denied all of the allegations that you've just aired. and the public protector, the ethics guardian in south africa, is now investigating the case — so why don't you just back off a little bit and let due process happen? politics don't work like that, where someone from london tells you to "back off". there's no one from london who can tell us to back off. we do what we do, and we do it for the best of our people. ramaphosa has brought the office of the president into disrepute, and we must be worried, we who love south africa, that our office cannot be occupied by a person with so many accusations against him, including
torturing of women. we shouldn't be only obsessed with money. there was a female there who was tortured. and the chief bodyguard of ramaphosa has now come clean, confirming the allegations that were made against ramaphosa as a person was leading that investigation. all i can do is remind our audience that mr ramaphosa denies all of these accusations that you keep sending his way. and the point is, how credible are you? you've been running a vendetta against ramaphosa for years. it's 6—7 years since you labelled him a "murderer". but the truth is, ramaphosa has won elections, he is the leader of the anc, and you simply refuse to accept his authority. no, but you are also peddling a lie — because ramaphosa never denied the allegations.
he said he will answer at an appropriate forum. so you can't to your audience speak with authority that ramaphosa denied any wrongdoing. the reason why he's been struggling to answer questions to the public protector is because he's got no answers to give. so it's not true that ramaphosa has ever denied — because to deny is to lie, and to lie is another charge of perjury. that the whole president existing under oath can loosely lie. you can't quote ramaphosa here on hardtalk where he says, "i vehemently deny the allegations". he says, "i will cooperate with the investigation, authorities" — he's never denied that there was something that went wrong. so let's not say things that the man did not say, and there is no vendetta from us. we are in the opposition.
we pursue and hold the executive accountable. we still want answers from what happened in marikana, because... well, let's not... all right, let's not go back to the marikana mine's incident, because you had your say on that many times over many years. let us focus on what is happening to the people of south africa today. you've got an unemployment rate at a record well over 30%. you've got hunger across the nation. there are people in your nation who are facing starvation. and you, because of your politicking right now, are calling for a "national shutdown". you seem to want to bring the country to a halt. how is that going to help? if you have not been part of picket lines, you will never know how important picket lines are. in south africa, we are where we are today because we have always opted for picket lines.
and now, we have a crisis with a government that is not held accountable, with a president that thinks he's above the law because he enjoys the protection of the capitalist white media in south africa and internationally. so the only thing we have is ourselves. we are going to bring our bodies to the streets and demand that ramaphosa must resign, and that the new president must look into the cost of living, including working on finding us a possible reasonable oil which will ease our pain. because our problem starts with the price of oil in south africa. what's going on here? is it you trying to stir trouble in this country to a point where ramaphosa can no longer govern, and perhaps jacob zuma can somehow be brought back into power?
i remember last year you tweeted, saying, "mr zuma, i really need to meet you, can i meet you for tea?" you went to his farmstead to meet him. nobody knows what you talked about, but there are rumours in south africa that zuma is still plotting some sort of move against the current government — are you involved in that? zuma will never be president of south africa again. he must enjoy his pension, and people must stop troubling him there in the villages. he's looking after cattle, he's no longer a factor. there is no zuma who is going to come back. there's going to be the eff that will take over south africa and run it for the better. so do not confuse us with the internal factional battles of the anc.
and if we needed something like that, we'd have said it ourselves with our mouth. we never hide what we think. what did you say to zuma when you met him? no, i met president zuma to persuade him to go to the zondo commission. because i had an appreciation that if he doesn't go, and ultimately he gets arrested, there's going to be a problem in south africa. and also, reminding him that we grew up under you, you guys used to teach us that we ought to respect the constitutional court as a final arbiter, and then, comply with whatever the constitutional court says. so today, you guys want to create an impression that if the constitutional court has spoken, there can still be others who speak apart from the court, which is wrong. so the criminal court said, "you go to the zondo commission." that's what i said to him. well, what we know is that next month, zuma's corruption
trial is due to resume — and there is an awful lot of tension across south africa right now because, again, there is speculation that there are forces loyal to mr zuma in some elements of south africa's security forces who may be planning, how can one put it, actions against the government. a year ago, we saw violence across parts of your country where guns were looted and stolen. do you fear that insurrection is a possibility in the coming months, as tension rises around the zuma trial? firstly, there were no guns which were looted ever in south africa during thejuly unrest — so it's incorrect to say that there were guns looted. people looted the most basic things because of the levels of poverty in south africa. so the peddling of guns being looted is an imagination that...
that's not true — containers containers of weapons disappeared in durban. you know it as well as i do, it was widely reported. no, no, but there was no looting of guns. if containers are missing something, it's because... looting would mean that there was different areas, that it was happening injuly where people were looting guns. there was no such thing as an isolated incident of a container — and therefore, it must not be conclusively that there was a looting of guns in south africa. there was a problem with one container. out here, there were no guns that were looted except that container that we are speaking of. right, but you haven't you haven't actually answered my question — do you think violent insurrection is a possibility? you, for years, have called yourself a revolutionary. you've quoted revolutionary leaders who ultimately say violence has to be the solution if politicians will not listen. so i'm just wondering right now
whether you think south africa faces serious political violence? not for zuma. there can't be any violence because zuma is going on trial. that is not going to happen. the violence that is going to happen in south africa is because the elite is disappearing, and that the poor are becoming more poorer — and therefore, there's going to be something that looks like an arab spring. that we are guaranteed, i can tell you now, one day we're going to wake up with very angry people who are not going to be reasonable if there is no immediate intervention to try and help with the social conditions of our people in south africa. but for zuma, there won't be any violence for zuma. it's going to go to go to trial, whether he likes it or not, and the judge will take
a decision about that. you, of course, have been convicted of hate speech in the past. there was, of course, the whole trial about your use of the "kill the boer" song, which you were responsible and your supporters were responsible for airing many times, in which in the end, the courts convicted you of hate speech for using. you actually face new allegations of using hate speech toward white people in the last few months. do you think that you are responsible for some of the rising tensions in your country today? if i was responsible for rising tensions in my country today, what you see is a picnic. it could have been worse than that if i was commanding it. i've engaged in democratic ways of trying to resolve problems in south africa.
and therefore, those who are scared of our ideas try and create an impression of very violent people — we are not. we are not responsible for any single violent activity that has happened in south africa. you can't link us to anything. you can't link us to corruption, you can't link us to the abuse and violation of women in south africa. but there is always this attempt to want to project us as being unreasonable people. but at the end of the day, when you break things down... hang on, hang on, hang on. if you are so reasonable, why are you still using this language of race hate? you, as recently as february of this year, were were cross—examined by afriforum, an advocate working for them,
the representative of one of the white communities in south africa. you were alleged to have said, suggested that the slaughter of white people might happen in the future. and you said this, "i can't guarantee that i won't do it. i'm not ruling out that possibility." why do you continue to use this sort of language? nobody wants to deny me a right to analyse society and give my own perception of what could be a possible outcome. when the unled revolution comes in south africa, the first target will be white people — because they are the ones who've got the means. and the black elite which has committed class suicide will also be pursued. but the biggest losers are going to be white people — who should by now come
to the party and say, "guys, how do you find solution to the problems confronting our people? " because the unled revolution is led by the fact that people say and arrive at the conclusion that we have nothing to lose but our our chains of poverty. that's why they will do what they try to do. it strikes me, it's very useful for you to continue to use this language of race confrontation when, in fact, if you're talking about inequality and poverty, you, julius malema, are arguably part of the problem. your party gets massive donations from a white man who runs a tobacco company. you accuse others of being in the pocket of white capitalists — you do business with white capitalists yourself. and also, you make a point of declaring how many luxury holidays and nice cars you have had — you are one of the elite, are you not?
no, but you are lying. you see your problem, you lie a lot, and then, ask a small question. you are lying, you are a liar. there is no eff that gets a lot of money from a white man who is in cigarette. that man donated once when we were forming the eff, and that's what is actually paining all of you. so it's a lie. we're not getting any money from any white person to run the if i am an elite. i am an elite. when the masses come to attack all of us, i'll also be part of the people who are attacked by these masses on the ground. because they will accuse us of having abandoned them in squalor and joined the police politics. but we try everything in our power to say to them, "we are fighting for you to get a better life." it's not an easy thing — and our people know their
leaders who are trying to make sure that things are equal. so, what are you really offering the poor people of south africa — those who are unemployed, those who are struggling for food? your message doesn't seem to have changed. you want massive nationalisation of resources, particularly white—owned resources — well, right now we see that the nationalised energy company eskom is completely failing the people of south africa, so nationalisation doesn't seem to work. you also argue for expropriation of white land with no compensation — and yet, your party actually voted against it. so, what are you really offering your people? well, i think your biggest worry is white people. i've never heard you speak about black people in a manner and passion you are expressing yourself — as if there are only white people here, and there are no black people who are actually at the receiving end of this crisis we are talking about. on the contrary, mr malema, i'm asking you why black south
africans should believe that your nationalisation programme would actually deliver for them? ..the white people, properties, and all of that. your obsession with them is exactly what distorts the message. earlier on, you referred to afriforum as an organisation of white people. call it for what it is — it's a racist organisation. it's a racist white organisation. so our proposal is very clear — industrialisation will create jobs. nationalisation of the mines will create jobs. the nationalisation of the land expropriated without compensation, and the state becoming the custodian of the land will give a lot of people access to the ownership of the land. and they can use the land to sustain themselves with the help of the state. and that's what they look at...
look at the state energy company, mr malema, look what that's delivering for the people of south africa. but let's look at also the private companies that are folding in south africa. why do you want to create an impression that the state companies are failing? the anc is failing eskom, so that it can sell eskom. if you first make it look like it's not working, so that by the time you come to sell, everybody is so annoyed with eskom and agrees to the nonsensical selling of state—owned enterprises. recently, we had an aviation company closing down. it was not a state—owned. and then, you take the state—owned aviation company, and you say, "no, let's privatise it because the state can't run it" — as if when it's run by private sector, that it does a good job.
fashionable to do so, and we make no apology about our association with russia. a crisis point is facing south africa — do you believe that the monopoly on power of the anc is about to come to an end? and if it is, are you prepared to work with the biggest opposition party, the democratic alliance, to bring the anc rule to an end? well, the eff will bring the anc�*s rule to an end. and our strategy, as we are about to collapse this big elephant, is not to consider who else to work with. we want to take down the anc, and we are doing exactly that. but you've got a decision to make, because you only get 10% of the vote in elections — the democratic alliance get twice that. so you've got to either build a coalition with other opposition elements,
or you are never going to get anywhere near power. i didn't know, on the other side, you are a fortune teller. i thought you were a journalist. because you can't tell what's going to happen in 202a. only us who are involved in this work will tell you that the idf is going to win the 2024 elections, and will not need the racist da, if that's what you're concerned about. julius malema, we're out of time, but i do thank you very much indeed forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. thank you, thank you very much.
hello there. this week has been quite a cloudy one for many parts of the country, but it looks like we're going to end the week with more sunshine, and that means it's going to be feeling warmer everywhere. into the weekend, though, we're going to look at this cloud that's been hanging around in the atlantic to push down from the northwest into the uk. ahead of it, we still have some cloud that's been producing some rain in scotland and northern england. but away from here, we start with some clearer spells early on friday morning and temperatures around 11—14 celsius. there will still be some rain left over across northern england and southern scotland. it'll tend to peter out in the morning, sunshine elsewhere, but over land, the cloud will bubble up, mightjust give one or two light showers. bulk of those, i think, will be across northern england and eastern scotland. and many coastal areas will have a dry and mostly sunny day. it's going to be warmer, though, for all of us. temperatures low 20s, scotland, northern ireland, northern england, warmer further south and making 28
celsius in the south east of england. notice, through, this cloud coming in to northern ireland. we'll see some rain arriving here during the evening. and overnight, that rain will push its way eastwards into scotland, over the irish sea into northern parts of england. but again, further south, it's staying dry. it's going to be a warm start to the weekend, actually, those temperatures, 14 to 16 celsius. now, i showed you the cloud earlier on. that's on this weather front here, which is slipping its way into england and wales overnight and during saturday, but weakening all the while. so there won't be much rain left over by the afternoon. we start cloudy and with some rain across northern areas in the morning, that rain tending to peter out, slowly brightening up in scotland and northern ireland, and just a little bit of rain left over for northwest england and western parts of wales in the afternoon. ahead of it, though, the midlands towards the southeast and east anglia, a warm day again on saturday with temperatures around 27 celsius. so we've got a weather front heading ourway, bringing with it the possibility of some rain. and then that weather
frontjust hangs around for the second half of the weekend. this is where we've got a lot of uncertainty. just little bumps along that weatherfront, maybe pepping up the rain from time to time. and it looks like that rain now is going to be a bit further south across wales, the midlands and across east anglia, the far south of england may stay dry, and further north, it looks like it'll be dry, brighter and a little bit cooler in scotland and northern ireland. still some warmth, though, if we do get some sunshine in the southeast of england.
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