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tv   BBC News  BBC News  April 12, 2022 2:00pm-5:01pm BST

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this is bbc news. the headlines. the prime minister and the chancellor will both get fines — for breaches of coronavirus lockdown rules. russia is preparing for a major new offensive in eastern ukraine — with fighting expected to intensify, according to the pentagon and the ministry of defence meanwhile, ordinary lives are transformed by an extraordinary war. we follow the fortunes of one suburban, ukrainianfamily. translation: "woman, stay," they commanded. | "you go outside, i take you down." so i stood in the yard, and i heard two shots. it was so hard, i thought they were dead. a man is found guilty of murdering his partner's three—year—old son after beating him repeatedly
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and breaking his ribs. wages rise — but prices rise faster, according to new figures — continuing the squeeze on living standards. breaking news from the last few minutes, the prime minister boris johnson and the chancellor of the exchequer rishi sunak have both been fined by the metropolitan police for breaching lockdown regulations and attending parties in downing street. at least 30 more fixed penalty notices have been by police who are investigating the alleged breaches of lockdown rules in government buildings. breaking news on that story, reaction from the leader of
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the labour party, sir keir starmer. he's repeated his call for boris johnson to resign and he says that borisjohnson and rishi sunak have broken the law and repeatedly lied to the british public and that they must both resign and the conservatives are unfit to govern, britain deserves better. senior downing street, very little activity at the moment. lunchtime, i guess. a few people are going to be going in with their sandwiches and takeaway coffees. no parties are a problem nowadays because the restrictions have gone but at the time the restrictions existed, there were quite strict requirements at various stages and at one point the home secretary urged people to phone the police if they saw their neighbours holding parties or events. the prime minister assured mps back in december last year that there had been no gatherings, that was his first argument, and then that they had not breached any rules on coronavirus and eventually, his
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position was that he had not been told that any gatherings or events that took place were in breach of the rules. the metabolic police investigated following an investigation by the senior civil servant, sue gray —— the metabolic to police. we haven't seen the sue gray report because the police were concerned it would prejudice their investigations. we've seen a very highly redacted version of the report. assurances were given about the appearance of the report and we await to see if it appears after this process of finds has been completed and we don't know whether that's the case or not. the bbc has confirmed that both the prime minister and the chancellor of the exchequer have been fined for breaching the coronavirus regulations as a result of a series of parties that were investigated, about a dozen in the end, subject to the metropolitan police investigation. dame cressida dick, the commissioner of the metropolitan
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police, the term ended with her resignation and she left office over the weekend. and i think she ceased to be commissioner actually on sunday so there is no commissioner at the moment. the investigation has already gone through the wheels and this is the final iteration of the investigation. these are fixed penalty fines meaning they do not have,in penalty fines meaning they do not have, in effect, there is no flexibility for the police to decide that the rules have been broken, then the fine is imposed. i can't say i know enough about whether you are actually in a position to challenge the fines or not. i'm just trying to open some copy in fact that we've received. as i've already said, the leader of the opposition has called for the resignation. no great surprise for that, that they would call for that, after all sir keir starmer called for the prime minister's resignation quite a few months ago and on a number of
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occasions. 0ur political correspondent david wallace lockhart is at westminster. david, you were telling victoria that there was very little warning that there was very little warning that there was very little warning that the announcement was coming but we knew that there were further fines and it looks like the number involved here is quite extensive. 0ver involved here is quite extensive. over 50 finds now the met police haveissued over 50 finds now the met police have issued related to the events taking place in downing street and other government buildings while covid regulations were in place. important to stress that doesn't necessarily mean 50 individuals. people can be getting more than one fine. the events are not specified that the fines relate to. the two people of significant interest to have received a fine of the prime minister himself and the second most prominent government person, rishi sunak. hugely politically
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problematic for number ten. boris johnson had such a difficult period not that long ago when it came to so—called partygate events with some in his own party, backbenchers calling for him to go, letters going into the 1922 committee, the process for conservative mps trying to depose their leader. that was around his handling of the events that had taken place while covid regulations were in place and his personal links perhaps to three of those events that we knew the met police were looking at. but now the met have said that his personal behaviour reaches the level where he can receive a fine, taking us into a different arena of political problems for the prime minister. let's talk about the practical indications because it was a very difficult period, a number of letters asking the chairman of the 1922 committee to hold a vote of confidence as to whether boris
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johnson should remain as prime minister. some doubt whether people wanted to move in for the kill, if one can put it like that because you only get one chance and if you are unsuccessful at unseating the party leader, underthe unsuccessful at unseating the party leader, under the conservative party rules, you have to wait 12 months before you make another attempt. a lot of people seem to draw back after the sue gray report wasn't published in detail. is there any indication that it was a question of waiting to see whether the prime minister was fined or is that journalists reading into the behaviour of tory mps? there's an element of — behaviour of tory mps? there's an element of that. _ behaviour of tory mps? there's an element of that. the _ behaviour of tory mps? there's an element of that. the first - behaviour of tory mps? there's an element of that. the first thing - behaviour of tory mps? there's an element of that. the first thing to | element of that. the first thing to say, for the opposition parties, they are calling for the prime minister to go and that's not surprising. they were calling for him to go regarding his handling for this before he got fined and now the fine is going to increase those calls. when it comes to the backbench conservative mps they are realistically the only ones who can depose a conservative party leader because if 15% of their rights to
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the 1922 committee saying they have no confidence in the prime minister it triggers a no—confidence vote. it happened to theresa may who survived it. if they lose the vote they are out and if they survive they get a yearin out and if they survive they get a year in office where they cannot be challenged again. many conservative mps who perhaps were trying to buy their time, mps who perhaps were trying to buy theirtime, perhaps mps who perhaps were trying to buy their time, perhaps didn't want borisjohnson to go but didn't want to give him theirfull borisjohnson to go but didn't want to give him their full backing at that point, saying they wanted to see the full report from the civil servant, sue gray. she is only published an interim report and she's waiting for the met police investigation to finish. by virtue of borisjohnson now being fined i suspect some, it maybe the final straw for them saying the fact he breached the rules, he was telling the country to follow, that is enough for me, the letter is going in. but there's a massive elephant in. but there's a massive elephant in the room, what's happening in ukraine. many conservative mps think that boris johnson's
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ukraine. many conservative mps think that borisjohnson�*s handling of that borisjohnson�*s handling of that has been recent recently very good. that trip to kyiv was seen as a diplomatic coup for him, to be walking around the streets with president zelensky. it's possible, many tory mps may think because of the global situation and not wanting to hand any sort of proper —— propaganda code to do may put in that it will be the was time to get borisjohnson out of a job. not to say that... it mayjust be the thing that he says he is best placed to get the country through and therefore best place to stay in office. , , ., , therefore best place to stay in office. , ., , ., ., office. just on this, another calculation _ office. just on this, another calculation might _ office. just on this, another calculation might be - office. just on this, another calculation might be for- office. just on this, another calculation might be for the conservatives, the old joke of, be careful what you wish for. it's fine to get rid of the prime minister but you have to have a reasonable confidence that somebody there who
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is going to come up to the mark and could be a suitable replacement. if the chancellor is being fined as well, a chancellor whose had a fairly difficult few weeks, let's be honest, probably the most difficulties experienced in his political career... first the spring statement that didn't go down as well as he'd hoped, even among tory mps and then the row over his wife's non—dom status which he said was not her choice but it turned out it was a choice, could be a choice. then it wasn't... then she decided it wasn't in the british sense of fair play so she was going to change her status and start paying tax on her international earnings in this country. that process on top of now being fined presumably means that rishi sunak fans being fined presumably means that rishi sunakfans must being fined presumably means that rishi sunak fans must ask if we want a leadership contest now, are we confident that our man can win it?
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you're right to say the rishi sunak brand has had a very difficult period. this fine for him being another very problematic aspect of that. sir keir starmer has put out a statement in the last few minutes notjust statement in the last few minutes not just calling for statement in the last few minutes notjust calling for borisjohnson to go, which he did previously, now labour also calling for the chancellor to go. so i think the idea that, you know, now would be the ideal time for him to run to bpm, it's fair to say it isn't the premium moment for him. there will be no shortage of people who would like to take borisjohnson�*s job. that may not even be people who are in the cabinet. plenty of backbenchers with experience might fancy another go at the job at some point. fancy taking that role on of conservative party leader and therefore prime minister. but let's remember, to bring it back to the
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global picture, party leadership contest tend not to be particularly good for the party. people who are ostensibly on the same side slinging mud at each other as they try and get the topjob. mud at each other as they try and get the top job. they can be drawn out processes, taking weeks of public debate. candidates are potentially breathing against one another. there will be backbench mps in the conservative party who will be thinking, is that what we want when we are trying to deal with the cost of living crisis, trying to deal with problematic inflation, while there a war going on in eastern europe that we are helping one side of. that could be the factor that perhaps makes many in boris johnson's own factor that perhaps makes many in borisjohnson�*s own party question if now would be the right time to get rid of him but i think you're to save two you're right to say that if we are talking about a leadership contest in the near future it would be very difficult for rishi sunak to
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be very difficult for rishi sunak to be talking about running while he is also being fined and the prime minister has had to resign because of the fine. , ,, minister has had to resign because of the fine. ,, ., ~ minister has had to resign because of the fine-— of the fine. goodness, thank you. let's talk to _ of the fine. goodness, thank you. let's talk to the _ of the fine. goodness, thank you. let's talk to the senior _ of the fine. goodness, thank you. let's talk to the senior research l let's talk to the senior research fellow at uk in a changing europe. my fellow at uk in a changing europe. my colleague was pointing out that these penalty fines, there's no point the prime minister thinking they have a route of appeal although it is best for them to take it down the chain. but the implications are considerable? yes the chain. but the implications are considerable?— the chain. but the implications are considerable? , , , considerable? yes because the prime minister repeatedly _ considerable? yes because the prime minister repeatedly assured - minister repeatedly assured parliament that there were no parties and now effectively the police are saying, well, prime minister, you were present at a party, that's why you've got a fixed penalty notice. so if the prime minister accepts the fine and doesn't contest it then he's effectively admitting that he was a party. we effectively admitting that he was a -a . ~ ., ., effectively admitting that he was a
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party. we got into all sorts of semantics — party. we got into all sorts of semantics over _ party. we got into all sorts of semantics over whether - party. we got into all sorts of semantics over whether it - party. we got into all sorts of| semantics over whether it was party. we got into all sorts of. semantics over whether it was a party at thankfully we no longer have to go into that because the police have definitively said that these were parties, contrary to the terms of the legislation, the rules the government had set. camilla cavendish, herself a former downing street insider, said that she found it extraordinary, the government head of ethics, someone who had been senior in the covid task force and the prime minister, as we now know is the case and the chancellor of exchequer, being found guilty of breaching rules that they were responsible for creating. surely as far as you can recall it is something without precedent. yes, i think that's pretty — something without precedent. yes, i think that's pretty safe _ something without precedent. yes, i think that's pretty safe to _ something without precedent. yes, i think that's pretty safe to say. - something without precedent. yes, i think that's pretty safe to say. an i think that's pretty safe to say. an area where you've got a lot of very senior people in both the government, senior ministers and very senior officials in the cabinet office, facing fines is
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0ffice, facing fines is unprecedented. this story is like a serial whodunnit where we find out more each week about who has been fined by the met. in more each week about who has been fined by the met.— fined by the met. in that sense it's uuite fined by the met. in that sense it's quite limiting _ fined by the met. in that sense it's quite limiting for _ fined by the met. in that sense it's quite limiting for the _ fined by the met. in that sense it's quite limiting for the government, | quite limiting for the government, the drip, drip. —— quite damaging for the government. the met are not saying this is the end of the process. i saying this is the end of the rocess. ., �* ~ , process. i don't think it is the end because we _ process. i don't think it is the end because we assume _ process. i don't think it is the end because we assume there - process. i don't think it is the end because we assume there are - process. i don't think it is the end i because we assume there are more people in the frame, there maybe some who decide to contest these fines. i think it would have been better if the met had stayed there hand and at the end of the day had issued a full list of everybody who had been fined, whose names they would disclose, so we knew that that was the end of the met police investigation and then we could move onto the next stage, the publication of the full sue gray report which the prime minister was forced to concede would be published at the end of the met investigation. we're waiting to see when we get the final
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report. we waiting to see when we get the final re ort. ~ ~' ., waiting to see when we get the final re ort. ~ ~ ., ., . report. we never know what impact olitical report. we never know what impact political stories _ report. we never know what impact political stories have _ report. we never know what impact political stories have on _ report. we never know what impact political stories have on political. political stories have on political campaigns but notwithstanding its a local election campaign and we've been told contradictory things by the parties. vote for us because the other lot are a disaster nationally, but also this is about local politics. that's the nature of the beast. presumably the timing of this isn't anything the government would want when they are facing what could be a difficult set of english local elections. , ., ., elections. the timing is not great. it was elections. the timing is not great. it was never _ elections. the timing is not great. it was never going _ elections. the timing is not great. it was never going to _ elections. the timing is not great. it was never going to be _ elections. the timing is not great. it was never going to be great - elections. the timing is not great. it was never going to be great for| it was never going to be great for the prime minister in a sense because so much of the news is overshadowed by ukraine. the timing may not be the worst it could be. interesting as well that the chancellor has been fined because a lot of the attention is on the chancellor at the moment as well as the prime minister which may help the prime minister which may help the prime minister to an extent. the prime minister maybe pleased that if this is the only fine you get is that this story is out of the way before easter and quite distant from
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the local elections but also from talking to people i know who have been canvassing in local elections, they seem to be saying that a lot of people have made up their minds. made up your mind on partygate, you probably didn't need to wait for the met police to say that the prime minister was guilty as charged because you've already taken that from everything he said before. i'm not sure it's going to change many minds. now to have that validation by the investigating force that the prime minister was indeed at an illegal gathering is not great news in the middle of a campaign. i in the middle of a campaign. i wonder what pleasure it may put on conservative mps who said they would make their mind up about the prime minister's leadership when they'd heard from sue gray whether it will be enough for them to have heard from the metropolitan police. but where expecting the report soon. your analysis, as a former insider
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in the whitehall machine, what effect has this had on whitehall�*s self—confidence, this process? i self—confidence, this process? 1 think it must have a very self—confidence, this process? i think it must have a very damaging effect on morale, to know that you and many of your senior colleagues are potentially facing investigation, fines, that will be very unsettling. i think there will be a lot of recriminations. how did we get into this? there should be some introspection. so many senior people were involved. 0ne people were involved. one interesting question for whitehall, hopefully there will be more insua great�*s report, how did whitehall get itself into a position where it was deeming itself to be so outside the rules that applied to everybody else. it seems a mentality took hold that these parties, these gatherings, were 0k. that these parties, these gatherings, were ok. we heard the party for which there were fines
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last week that helen mcnamara, the government head of propriety and ethics, who should have been enforcing that, was fined for a party taking place in the former cabinet secretary's office. the interesting question around whitehall, how did this culture gets so messed up, if you like, that nobody was saying or not enough people were saying, hey, we're doing the wrong thing here?— the wrong thing here? we've got to a state now, the wrong thing here? we've got to a stage now, certainly _ the wrong thing here? we've got to a stage now, certainly in _ the wrong thing here? we've got to a stage now, certainly in the _ the wrong thing here? we've got to a stage now, certainly in the most - stage now, certainly in the most recent discussions around partygate, the cabinet minister saying that people like getting terribly worked up people like getting terribly worked up about this, making a mountain out of a mole hill. if it happened, it was entirely understandable, people under great pressure, working in difficult circumstances, trying excuses for it. a matter of months before, the home secretary had said to people that if you think your neighbours are holding a party, you should ring the police. it seems as this business of allegations about parties, which we are told happened,
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according to the met, has forced the government to contradict itself in a rather convoluted exercise of self—justification. rather convoluted exercise of self-justification.— rather convoluted exercise of self-justification. yes, it's very difficult. you _ self-justification. yes, it's very difficult. you can _ self-justification. yes, it's very difficult. you can see _ self-justification. yes, it's very difficult. you can see why - self-justification. yes, it's very difficult. you can see why to i self-justification. yes, it's veryj difficult. you can see why to an extent people who were going into the office anyway, relatively few people going into offices where they worked, people working in shops, in factories, in hospitals, were going into work. you can see you might get into work. you can see you might get into saying, well, we can't go out and celebrate that somebody is leaving in the pub like we would normally so why don't we get in a few bottles of wine? then you do that. but a lot of these events look like much more, as far as we can see, than having a quick glass of wine for a departing colleague at your desk with nobody coming into an office who wasn't there anyway for work reasons. so it seems that maybe whitehall slid down a slippery slope
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where the first events might have been relatively harmless, into ones that look much more like full—scale singing and dancing, quite literally a party. it's quite difficult to work out what happened so it's an interesting question. it raises big questions about ministers, because ministers tend to come to leaving parties. what did they know? interesting that they have now been fined including the prime minister but it raises huge questions for the leadership of the civil service, how did they get this so badly wrong? they should have been the people, if ministerial instincts were wrong, it should have been civil servant saying, look, you are telling the public to do one thing. we cannot be seen to be doing the other thing. you normally expect senior civil servants to act as a second line of defence when ministers pass political instincts fail them. {line political instincts fail them. one final question _ political instincts fail them. one final question on _ political instincts fail them. one final question on that, - political instincts fail them. one final question on that, i wonder where this leaves the cabinet secretary simon case, who had to recuse himself from the inquiry.
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that was the point of sue gray conducting it. he walked through a party apparently as he was leaving the office one day. e—mails were sent from his own office, not from him. there has to be a question mark over the authority of the most senior civil servant in the light of this. ., senior civil servant in the light of this. . , , ., . senior civil servant in the light of this. . , , . . this. yeah it seems a culture took hold this. yeah it seems a culture took held under— this. yeah it seems a culture took hold under his _ this. yeah it seems a culture took hold under his predecessor, - this. yeah it seems a culture tookl hold under his predecessor, before simon case had even come back into government in the summer of 2020. so in a sense he might have inherited a culture that was already seeing this as perfectly 0k and legitimate. in that sense he might be a bit unlucky but at the moment, simon case, he hasn't been fined yet. we don't know if he will be on not. but clearly he didn't clamp down on this culture when he became the cabinet secretary. must have been involved, given some of the officials involved, you would assume that simon case at least new about some
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of these parties even if he wasn't there with a glass of wine in his hand. i think he'll be feeling very exposed. we had those high—profile departures from downing street. in a sense, simon case is in the frame. as with the prime minister, we've been told if simon case is fined. thank you for that. we can now talk to a columnist at the observer. thanks forjoining us. what do you make of this is a story? what do you make of this is a story? what are your instincts, thinking ahead to the sunday paper, about how important the story is, given that there a war going on in europe, quite a lot of other big stories happening at the moment. well, i think this story _ happening at the moment. well, i think this story is _ happening at the moment. well, i think this story is important - think this story is important substantively for two reasons. firstly it's unprecedented. we have
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a prime minister and chancellor who have been found by the police to be breaking the law during an actual crisis, a national crisis during which many people made huge sacrifices, not being with loved ones before they died, in order to stick by the law, to do their bit in the pandemic and we find that the chancellor and prime minister haven't. that's the first issue. unprecedented. i think it means that the prime minister's future should be unsustainable. the second issue is the way that the prime minister reacted to these revelations coming out. he's misled parliament three times, when his claims that no laws were broken, no rules were broken in downing street and that to his knowledge there were no parties. now the police have found out he was at at least one of these parties. i think this is a very serious stories for both of those reasons. in think this is a very serious stories for both of those reasons. in terms ofthe for both of those reasons. in terms of the mechanics _ for both of those reasons. in terms of the mechanics of _ for both of those reasons. in terms of the mechanics of this, _ for both of those reasons. in terms of the mechanics of this, as -
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for both of those reasons. in terms of the mechanics of this, as the - for both of those reasons. in terms | of the mechanics of this, as the bbc correspond was outlining earlier, there's only one mechanism here, assuming the prime minister and chancellor don't decide to resign and that's that conservative mps submit enough letters to trigger a vote of no confidence. we're still in ignorance about how many people ever put in letters and whether any of those letters withdrawn. douglas francis, the leader of the scottish conservatives, said he'd withdrawn his because of the war in the ukraine but elsewhere it's unclear. that's right, in a parliamentary democracy, between elections the prime minister serves at the pleasure of mps in the conservative party. it's always been very hard because of the way the conservative party system works, dunno how many letters have been submitted because they are submitted in confidence —— micro difficult to know how many letters have been submitted. mps should be carefully considering boris johnson's future but we are unlikely to see the vote of no
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confidence in coming weeks because of stories such as ukraine and the war in ukraine but i don't think... i don't think that should be a reason for conservative mps not to act. we live in a constitutional system where bizarrely the prime minister is in charge of enforcing the ministerial code, the code that sets out the behavioural standards expected of ministers and we've already seen for example boris johnson has chosen to ignore it when there has been a finding rate of bullying for example against the home secretary priti patel. we live in a system where it's up to the prime minister actually, what to enforce in the code, to decide what action he should take, what rishi sunak should take and i think it's extremely unlikely we are going to see borisjohnson saying, well, i've broken the law, is not appropriate for me to be in place any more. it shows one of the issues with the
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system, it's up to the government and prime minister two in for the ministerial code and there have been lots of circumstances where boris johnson just hasn't shown a willingness to do that. the position of rishi sunak, _ willingness to do that. the position of rishi sunak, your— willingness to do that. the position of rishi sunak, your newspaper - willingness to do that. the position| of rishi sunak, your newspaper was quite critical of him at the weekend and had to change positions, regarding his wife's position, criticising that it had become public. presumably his prospects are not helped any more than the prime minister's r. lilo. not helped any more than the prime minister's r-— minister's r. no, i don't think so. one thing — minister's r. no, i don't think so. one thing we _ minister's r. no, i don't think so. one thing we know _ minister's r. no, i don't think so. one thing we know from - minister's r. no, i don't think so. one thing we know from the - minister's r. no, i don't think so. - one thing we know from the expenses scandal over a decade ago is that voters don't like it when politicians appear to have a disregard for the rules and laws that they have to live by. that's what it rishi sunak around these revelations about his wife's tax affairs and that's what is so
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damaging for both sunak and johnson in terms of this story about downing street parties. it's clear that the chancellor and chancellor had —— and prime minister had no regard for the laws that they had set and that's something voters will take seriously. i something voters will take seriously-— seriously. i apologise for interrupting. _ seriously. i apologise for interrupting. carrie - seriously. i apologise for- interrupting. carrie johnson's spokesperson interrupting. carriejohnson's spokesperson has issued a statement in which she says that in the interests of transparency, mrs johnson can confirm that she has been notified that she will receive a fixed penalty notice. she is not received any further details about the nature of the fixed penalty notice. presumably what particular event is being referred to. they had been some debate about whether parties were held inside the downing street flat. ., v parties were held inside the downing street flat. ., 3 ~ street flat. that's right. i think, ou street flat. that's right. i think, you know. _ street flat. that's right. i think, you know, carrie _ street flat. that's right. i think, you know, carrie johnson, - street flat. that's right. i think, j you know, carrie johnson, she's street flat. that's right. i think, - you know, carrie johnson, she's not you know, carriejohnson, she's not an politician herself. but this implies that she attended the
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parties on government property in a government residence or government offices. so i think it's less public and borisjohnson and rishi sunak. but still important. and boris johnson and rishi sunak. but still important.— but still important. thank you. let me brina but still important. thank you. let me bring you _ but still important. thank you. let me bring you up-to-date - but still important. thank you. let me bring you up-to-date with - but still important. thank you. let me bring you up-to-date with the | me bring you up—to—date with the very latest from westminster. the prime minister borisjohnson and chancellor of the exchequer rishi sunak have both been fined by the metropolitan police for breaches of the lockdown regulations in relation to parties and gatherings held in downing street. at least 30 more fixed penalty notices have been issued by the police investigating alleged breaches. some political reaction. we hope to hearfrom the leader of the liberal democrats, ed davey, in a few minutes. we've heard from sir keir starmer who has again called for the prime minister to resign and he also says that the chancellor should resign now too and that they are unfit to serve in
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office. we'll have much more on that in a few moments when we'll be joined by viewers from around the world to bring them up—to—date with what we've been bringing you up—to—date with. going we can bring you up—to—date on the breaking news in london on this tuesday, that the british by minister borisjohnson and the chancellor of the exchequer rishi sunak have both been fined by the metropolitan police for breach of the lockdown regulations that were imposed during the covid pandemic, these were restrictions that prevented people holding gatherings above a small number of people or any kind of parties or events that could have brought people into close contact and at least 30 other fixed penalty notices have been issued by the police who have been investigating since allegations first appeared that there were parties or gatherings held both in
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number ten which is the office and also the home of the british prime minister and also the home of the british prime ministerand in also the home of the british prime minister and in other parts of whitehall, the centre of british political machinery. we can talk to the leader of the liberal democrats ed davey. thanks forjoining us. can i ask you an interesting question, we were at a time when the uk was doing much to project itself internationally as part of its efforts to support ukraine, after the invasion by russia, and the uk is a supporter of international law and it has a permanent seat on the un security council and it values tremendously its international reputation. not least its perception of itself as a force for good in the world, but how do you think this story will play into that internationally?- story will play into that internationally? this is a government _ internationally? this is a government in _ internationally? this is a government in crisis, - internationally? this is a - government in crisis, neglecting a country in crisis and unable to
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lead. they are in crisis because it is a dishonest government and it is in crisis because the prime minister and the chancellor are now clearly seem to have broken the law and we have a country and frankly a world that has been neglected, especially the cost of living crisis affecting millions of people, this government is neglecting them and that is why the liberal democrats are clear that the liberal democrats are clear that the prime minister and the chancellor should resign immediately and frankly if they won't resign, the speaker of the house of commons should recall parliament so mps can have a vote of no confidence in this government. aha, have a vote of no confidence in this government-— have a vote of no confidence in this government. a vote the government will win because _ government. a vote the government will win because they _ government. a vote the government will win because they have _ government. a vote the government will win because they have a - government. a vote the government| will win because they have a massive parliamentary majority? irate will win because they have a massive parliamentary majority?— parliamentary ma'ority? we will see if the parliamentary majority? we will see if the conservative _ parliamentary majority? we will see if the conservative mps _ parliamentary majority? we will see if the conservative mps really - if the conservative mps really believe that having a prime minister who breaks the law, having a chancellor who breaks the law, is acceptable. surely even conservative mps now can recognise that the prime minister and the chancellor must go.
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they imposed these laws on the rest of us and millions of people made huge sacrifices to keep to those laws yet the prime minister and the chancellor who made them were breaking them. this is a very serious moment for our country and we cannot have leaders who are dishonest and who break the law and we have got a crisis and you mention to the crisis in ukraine, of course, we have a cost of living emergency for millions of families and pensioners and frankly the prime minister and the chance that failed those millions of people. i'm absolutely clear now they must go and they must go immediately, so we can get fresh leadership and if the conservatives won't do that, i feel they are directly associated with this wrongdoing. you they are directly associated with this wrongdoing.— this wrongdoing. you are an internationalist _ this wrongdoing. you are an internationalist and - this wrongdoing. you are an internationalist and so - this wrongdoing. you are an internationalist and so it - this wrongdoing. you are an internationalist and so it is l this wrongdoing. you are an - internationalist and so it is your party, but in the end there are times when domestic political interest has got to be subservient to the international needs and right
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now the uk with the prime minister it has at the moment is playing a prominent role in the international effort to push back against russia so this is a distraction, isn't it? yes, these events happened and they have been fined and there is an argument they can tell us more about this but is this really the time for it? ~ , �* , , ., ., it? prime minister's reputation internationally _ it? prime minister's reputation internationally is _ it? prime minister's reputation internationally is not _ it? prime minister's reputation internationally is not the - it? prime minister's reputation i internationally is not the greatest and i have some faith in ben wallace, the secretary of state for defence, he has been leading the day—to—day effort to support ukrainian army and he has had cross—party support for that, so getting rid of the prime won't stop that huge support that our country has rightly given to the people of ukraine and to the ukrainian army, and soi ukraine and to the ukrainian army, and so i actually think getting rid of borisjohnson and now rishi sunak would be betterfor our
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of borisjohnson and now rishi sunak would be better for our country, both internationally and to help the millions of families and pensioners who are struggling in huge difficulty with the cost of living emergency. irate difficulty with the cost of living emergency-— difficulty with the cost of living emeruen . ~ . ., ., difficulty with the cost of living emeruen . . ., ., ., emergency. we are going to get some reaction of what _ emergency. we are going to get some reaction of what bereaved _ emergency. we are going to get some reaction of what bereaved families - reaction of what bereaved families are saying in response to this but we have two deal with one other quite important question here, an intriguing question, what if the chancellor, given he has had a dreadful few weeks, was to resign over this and say, actually, i think on principle i have been fined by the police and i don't think my position is tenable? what would be the consequences of the prime ministerfor the consequences of the prime minister for that? the consequences of the prime ministerforthat? if the consequences of the prime minister for that?— the consequences of the prime minister for that? if rishi sunak does the right _ minister for that? if rishi sunak does the right thing, _ minister for that? if rishi sunak does the right thing, the - minister for that? if rishi sunak does the right thing, the decent thing, and hands in his resignation, that will pile further pressure on the prime minister. we don't yet
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know the details behind wrote this lawbreaking but we saw the evidence and we have known the evidence over months now and it looks like the prime minister broke the law on several occasions. i think the pressure, if rishi sunak does the decent thing and resigned, will become completely overwhelming and frankly the prime minister should go now but in those circumstances he will have to go and conservatives will have to go and conservatives will have to do their constitutional duty and stop betraying people and the country. you duty and stop betraying people and the country-— the country. you talked about the effects of this _ the country. you talked about the effects of this potentially - the country. you talked about the effects of this potentially on - the country. you talked about the effects of this potentially on the l effects of this potentially on the conservative party, and your party was a government with the conservative party, have they changed or do you now rather regret that, the fact you were in coalition with the conservatives? irate
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that, the fact you were in coalition with the conservatives? we fought them every — with the conservatives? we fought them every day — with the conservatives? we fought them every day during _ with the conservatives? we fought them every day during that - them every day during that government and were successful, for example in quadrupling renewable power when people like borisjohnson were trying to stop it, so we achieved huge amounts, but i learnt then that you couldn't trust many of then that you couldn't trust many of the senior conservatives but it is actually different and it is now far worse. they have drifted to the right, especially borisjohnson, and i have been talking to lifelong conservatives we did that in the amersham by—election will be defeated, and we did that —— when we defeated, and we did that —— when we defeated the conservatives and we also have done that in other by—elections, lifelong conservatives are telling us that they don't think the prime minister is decent and they don't the fact that he thinks it is one rule for him and another for the rest of us and i don't think he cares. they say borisjohnson is not funny any longer and i think many conservatives would like to see the back of him. 5ir many conservatives would like to see the back of him.— the back of him. sir ed davey, the leader of the _ the back of him. sir ed davey, the leader of the liberal _ the back of him. sir ed davey, the leader of the liberal democrats, l leader of the liberal democrats, thanks forjoining us. the liberal
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democrats at the moment are the third biggest party that fights english seats, although the third biggest party is in the snp, from my memory, although they do not fight seats out of scotland. ed davey is a former liberal democrat cabinet ministerfrom the former liberal democrat cabinet minister from the coalition which was led by the conservative prime minister david cameron. we can now get further reaction. we have a spokesperson for bereaved families from covid—19, which is a campaigning group, and the spokesperson says come on behalf of the group after everything that this happened it is unbelievably painful to know that the prime minister was partying and breaking his own lockdown rules when we were unable
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to be at the side of our loved ones in the dying moments or at miserable funerals with only a handful of people because we were following the rules. factory prime minister and the chancellor then lied about it, this is a quote from the organisation —— the fact that the prime minister. and would continue to have done so if the police had not intervened, is truly shameless, they broke the law but even worse they broke the law but even worse they took us for mugs. when we met they took us for mugs. when we met the prime minister in the garden he looked us in the eye and said he did everything he could to save our loved ones but we know that was a lie. there is simply no way they can continue. they have lost all credibility to the wider public which could cost lives if new
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restrictions are needed in the future. if they had any decency they would be gone by tonight, it says, that is the statement from the bereaved families forjustice group. we have some other breaking news. this is out of new york city. according to the new york fire department, multiple people were shot and an explosive device, explosive devices, in fact, were found. it is 20 to three in the afternoon here so it is mid—morning in the us, these reports are coming from the new york fire department. we can now return to our main story on those lockdown fines over the breach of coronavirus regulations.
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we can speak to a chief column writer at the observer newspaper. you heard what ed davey had to say. can i pick you up on that thought, rishi sunak has had a lousy week and we believe that he aspires to succeed boris johnson we believe that he aspires to succeed borisjohnson as the prime minister and we are pretty clear it is fair to say that there has been a lot of tension between number ten and number 11 downing st and it must be awfully tempting giving the position he is in, to do the noble thing and fall on his sword, knowing thatis thing and fall on his sword, knowing that is likely to create a vacancy that is likely to create a vacancy that he might then conceivably be in a position if not to come back to, but at least two act as kingmaker for someone else. the calculation that rishi sunak _ for someone else. the calculation that rishi sunak has _ for someone else. the calculation that rishi sunak has to _ for someone else. the calculation that rishi sunak has to make - for someone else. the calculation that rishi sunak has to make is i for someone else. the calculation i that rishi sunak has to make is what would his resignation achieve and i should say that i think both boris johnson and rishi sunak should resign because of the serious nature of what has been found to have
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happened by the police but for rishi sunak the reality, it won't be a moral calculation, but as you hinted, a political calculation, and the reason why it is pretty unlikely to happen is that i think if he resigns, i still find to happen is that i think if he resigns, istill find it to happen is that i think if he resigns, i still find it hard to see how a sufficient head of momentum builds at this point in time amongst conservative backbenchers to have a vote of confidence in borisjohnson and to create that vacancy at the top in number ten that you reference. the most likely outcome would be at the moment that rishi sunak resigns and people move on. i don't think borisjohnson should stay in place but i find it hard to see conservative mps mobilising in sufficient numbers to trigger a vote of no confidence at this point in time and i think that is a lot to do with the situation in ukraine and the war in ukraine.—
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the war in ukraine. interesting oint, the war in ukraine. interesting point. and _ the war in ukraine. interesting point. and we _ the war in ukraine. interesting point, and we know— the war in ukraine. interesting point, and we know some - point, and we know some conservatives and i mentioned the meeting of —— leader of the scottish conservatives, douglas ross, that they have decided that because of they have decided that because of the war in ukraine they have said now was not the time, but emily thornberry said asquith was removed at prime minister during the first world war and replaced by lloyd george and neville chamberlain was famously removed and replaced by winston churchill during the second world war, several months into the war, in 1940, afterthe world war, several months into the war, in 1940, after the norway campaign. margaret thatcher was moved as conservative prime minister during the first iraq war so her argument was there is president the other way, that it is possible because the prime minister is not a commander—in—chief, of the military, unlike say, the president, so actually we can change by ministers
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and it need not be that destabilising. what is the force of resistance that prevents that, do the conservatives still believe that borisjohnson is a vote winner and the man that is best placed to take them into the next general election. a lot of them will be thinking let's see what happens in the local elections and lets see how much these revelations about rishi sunak and borisjohnson are being found to have broken the law by the police, let see how they hurt us in terms of the local election results, and if it looks like voters are factoring this into their voting behaviour, thenit this into their voting behaviour, then it potentially that is when you could get conservative mps starting to think well, actually, we need to oust boris johnson to think well, actually, we need to oust borisjohnson before the next election, but the issue with this is, there isn't an obvious successor to borisjohnson and there certainly isn't one who looks able to pull off the same trick that borisjohnson
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did in 2019 when he got the big 80 seat majority. by really forging a new electoral coalition and attracting voters, many of whom had previously voted for labour in previously voted for labour in previous elections, so there isn't somebody who immediately looks like they can do that but obviously boris johnson, the longer this goes on, is also, he becomes an electoral liability and a risk, so my personal view is that conservative mps will be able to tell a lot about what they think about that risk benefit calculus around borisjohnson by whether they choose to act or not but i can't see that happening before the local elections. thanks for “oininr before the local elections. thanks forjoining us- _ before the local elections. thanks forjoining us. we _ before the local elections. thanks forjoining us. we have _ before the local elections. thanks forjoining us. we have heard - before the local elections. thanks | forjoining us. we have heard what one of the opposition party leaders thinks with sir ed davey and we have heard what pundits think. what does the prime minister think about these
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parties before the announcement he had been fined by the police? he has addressed the issue on a number of occasions in the house of commons and this is what he's said at the start of the september. this is when there were rumours of parties. 1th there were rumours of parties. is millions of people were locked down last year, was a christmas party thrown in downing street for dozens of people on the 18th of december? what i can tell him is that all guidance _ what i can tell him is that all guidance was followed completely during _ guidance was followed completely during numberten. a guidance was followed completely during number ten.— during number ten. a week later after video _ during number ten. a week later after video was _ during number ten. a week later after video was obtained - during number ten. a week later after video was obtained and - after video was obtained and broadcast by itv news which showed the prime minister's then advisers arejoking about a the prime minister's then advisers are joking about a christmas party, and what they should call it, so it wasn't called a party, borisjohnson made a fresh statement in the house of commons. i made a fresh statement in the house of commons-— of commons. i understand and share
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the anrer of commons. i understand and share the anger up — of commons. i understand and share the anger up and _ of commons. i understand and share the anger up and down _ of commons. i understand and share the anger up and down the _ of commons. i understand and share the anger up and down the country i of commons. i understand and share| the anger up and down the country at seeing number ten's staff seeming to make light of lockdown measures and i can understand how infuriating it must be to think that the people who have been setting the rules have not been following them. because i was also furious to see that clip. mr speaker, i apologise unreservedly. i have asked the cabinet secretary to establish all the facts and to report back as soon as possible. the prime minister speaking after that appearance in december of last year. i want to bring you a quick conservative reaction. this is from a form inside in number ten, former special adviser to the prime minister, —— a former insider. peter
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cardwell minister, —— a former insider. peter ca rdwell says minister, —— a former insider. peter cardwell says in his reaction to this, that the prime minister doesn't really have a defence. keir starmer only asked the same question six times. he says if he says no, there are eyewitnesses who says he was there. i think those remarks were made some months ago but it is an interesting illustration of how even on the conservative side those are the questions that people will be asking. we can talk about what the police had to say about this in issuing their statements. we have had limited information about the investigation.— had limited information about the investigation. they have issued 50
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fixed penalty _ investigation. they have issued 50 fixed penalty notices _ investigation. they have issued 50 fixed penalty notices and - investigation. they have issued 50 fixed penalty notices and in - investigation. they have issued 50 fixed penalty notices and in the . fixed penalty notices and in the swell of has what been going on it is worth looking back as to how the police got involved and when it all started. the inquiry is called operation hillman and has examined 12 gatherings on eight dates to see if covid regulations were broken and it follows the separate inquiry undertaken by the senior civil servant sue gray. the 16 alleged gatherings, the police have been investigating all but four of them and we know the prime minister attended at least three of those on the 20th of may, 2020, the 19th of june at the 13th of november, also 2020, so the police have clearly been keen to be seen to be doing something. they also reviewed their decision to originally not investigate another event, a christmas quiz on the 15th of december, which followed a picture of the prime minister which was leaked to the press and published by
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the daily mirror. extraordinary series of events, unprecedented, the fixed penalty notices issued to the prime minister and the chancellor and we have seen the reaction in westminster, swift and impassioned as you would expect. so a lot to digest. as you would expect. so a lot to divest. , , ., ., digest. this is one of the most interesting _ digest. this is one of the most interesting thing _ digest. this is one of the most interesting thing initially - digest. this is one of the most interesting thing initially the l interesting thing initially the police view seems to be that it wasn't a matter for them police view seems to be that it wasn't a matterfor them but police view seems to be that it wasn't a matter for them but now we have got to a stage where they decided not only was it a matter for them but a significant number of fines were issued. we are not clear as to whether some people have been fined multiple times for being at multiple events, what you might call the party animals at westminster... it is unclear but this is quite a development to go from saying investigate, to saying there is quite a lot to investigate...
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exasperation and sadness. so many people thought they had abided by the rules and then the reaction to what was on —— unfired. fixed penalty notices don't leave —— lead to a criminal record and the idea is to a criminal record and the idea is to direct people away from the courts. there is no official record on the system and it doesn't lead to a criminal record as such. hat a criminal record as such. not something — a criminal record as such. not something you _ a criminal record as such. not something you would have to declare subsequently. something you would have to declare subsequently-— subsequently. some people will take this into account _ subsequently. some people will take this into account but _ subsequently. some people will take this into account but it _ subsequently. some people will take this into account but it is _ subsequently. some people will take this into account but it is the - this into account but it is the unprecedented nature and the fact that the change of heart by the police to investigate certain parties and the infuriating of so many people who lost loved ones and who felt they had followed the rules, equals this extraordinary afternoon we have today. thanks for “oininr us. afternoon we have today. thanks for joining us- i — afternoon we have today. thanks for joining us. i knew— afternoon we have today. thanks for joining us. i knew there _
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afternoon we have today. thanks for joining us. i knew there was - afternoon we have today. thanks for joining us. i knew there was a - joining us. i knew there was a reason why i was reading out the peter cardwell�*s comments from january! pete is now the political editor at talk radio. from our perspective, you were a special adviser in downing street and you were in number ten. try to wear both hats if you can, what do you make of these developments? it is these developments? it is extraordinary _ these developments? it is extraordinary but - these developments? it s extraordinary but probably not massively unexpected, although someone told me the prime minister was banking on not getting a fine but it is astonishing when you have the prime minister and his wife and the prime minister and his wife and the chancellor deemed to have broken the chancellor deemed to have broken the law, indeed the laws they enacted themselves. when they came up enacted themselves. when they came up with the idea is for lockdown and what restrictions they were going to have, so it's a pretty astonishing series of events. we have a prime minister who has apparently lied to parliament and broken the
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ministerial code and this is the first time this has happened, we are in unprecedented territory but knowing boris johnson in unprecedented territory but knowing borisjohnson as i do, if anybody is going to get through this and remain prime minister, it will probably remain him. it is and remain prime minister, it will probably remain him.— probably remain him. it is an extraordinary _ probably remain him. it is an extraordinary combination, l probably remain him. it is an extraordinary combination, i | probably remain him. it is an - extraordinary combination, i spoke to a former head of policy under david cameron, who made similar remarks at the weekend, in the financial times, saying that you have the head of ethics fined for breaking covid rules and one of the heads of the covid task force was fined and the prime minister and the chancellor also find, rules that were introduced by government that said at the time to people, if you spot somebody having a party, ring the police. that is what the home secretary said. because these were potentially life—threatening events because of covid and at the time we did not have a vaccine to mitigate the risks of serious illness or death, and yet at a number of stages
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in the process this appears to have been happening and it seems to have been happening and it seems to have been accepted in downing street that there was nothing strange about this to such an extent that people did not even regard them as parties? the fact that not even regard them as parties? tue: fact that we not even regard them as parties? tte: fact that we were not even regard them as parties? tt2 fact that we were all being told in stark terms that we were in danger of getting covid and that it could kill us and it did for many people and that was horrendous, but the lockdown measures that were brought in, the fact that people in downing street were not following them it showed they clearly didn't believe there was a risk in breaking those lockdown laws so that is quite serious as well, but this is going all the way to the top, the very top of our country, and the question is what happens now? keir starmer has called for the prime minister and the chancellor to resign but i don't think that will happen but we may well see parliament record and we might see a vote of no confidence in the prime minister and conservative backbenchers might call for a vote of no confidence in the prime minister, although that is unlikely.
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0ne senior backbencher said that we should draw a line in the sand and move on. let should draw a line in the sand and move on. ., ,~ should draw a line in the sand and move on. ., i. , should draw a line in the sand and move on. . ,, , . move on. let me ask you this, what do ou move on. let me ask you this, what do you think — move on. let me ask you this, what do you think other— move on. let me ask you this, what do you think other prospects - move on. let me ask you this, what do you think other prospects of- do you think other prospects of enough conservatives writing to the chairman of the 1922 committee saying they don't have enough confidence in the prime minister and the second point, what if the chancellor said, the second point, what if the chancellorsaid, infact, the second point, what if the chancellor said, in fact, stick to this point, one of the chancellor said, on principle i'm going to resign? t said, on principle i'm going to resin? ., �* ~' said, on principle i'm going to resin? 2, �* ~ ., said, on principle i'm going to resin? ., �* ~ ., ., resign? i don't think we are going to net resign? i don't think we are going to get over _ resign? i don't think we are going to get over the — resign? i don't think we are going to get over the 54 _ resign? i don't think we are going to get over the 54 letters - resign? i don't think we are going to get over the 54 letters that - resign? i don't think we are going to get over the 54 letters that are needed, the moment has passed as rishi sunak has found, it is about the perception of what you do, but we could be in the bizarre and fascinating situation where rishi
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sunak good resign hypothetically, although i don't think you will —— could resign. although i don't think you will -- could resign-— although i don't think you will -- could resin. ., ., ., could resign. peter, we have got to leave it there. _ could resign. peter, we have got to leave it there. we _ could resign. peter, we have got to leave it there. we can _ could resign. peter, we have got to leave it there. we can now - could resign. peter, we have got to leave it there. we can now go - could resign. peter, we have got to leave it there. we can now go live i leave it there. we can now go live to new york. you are watching bbc news and we can go live to new york. reports suggest seven people have been shot, this happened during the morning rush hour in brooklyn and police are at the same now. this is the pitch in new york city and we are waiting to get a formal statement. —— this is the picture. we got the news originally from the new york fire department who reported that several people had been shot and explosive devices found in a subway station and the incident happened in the morning rush hour, in brooklyn, south of manhattan, just across the water,
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connected by the subway networks across brooklyn bridge and the other links to the centre of the city in manhattan, so brooklyn is effectively the borough to the south and many people of course travel into manhattan from brooklyn. we can see the gathering there. we are told the details, firefighters responded to reports of smoke at the subway station in brooklyn and there are a number of stations in brooklyn i can't tell you which one exactly. pictures emerged of passengers covered in blood, lying on the passenger floor, covered in blood, lying on the passengerfloor, and some reports of explosives being found, that is coming from the associated press and also the new york times, but we have very little detail as yet. we are fairly confident that the mayor of new york who is himself a former police officer will be on the scene soon and will make some sort of
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statement, probably in conjunction with the commissioner of the police and also the fire commissioner for new york city. that gives a slightly better perspective. in brooklyn, a lot of the subway stations, they don't have a grand entrances, they are quite small, in and out, on the corners of blocks, shopping parks and districts and they tend to be quite busy stations and they also have very busy entrances during rush hourin have very busy entrances during rush hour in the morning which gives you... we are getting a slightly better sense of where we are. we are waiting for some kind of official statement but the reports coming out of the new york police department, new york fire department, that firefighters were in attendance at a subway station, and they were responding to reports of smoke at the station and somebody must have called the emergency services and they found more than they were
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expecting, perhaps. it seems they might have been an explosive device or devices, found in the subway stations, and there are suggestions of shots having been fired as well but very little detail about what that could be or who might be the cause of it and what actually might have happened on the subway. there are reports in separate instances of multiple shots, reported by us news networks, bbc news reporting that multiple people have been shot in several instances involving a northbound and train in brooklyn. it was a northbound n service heading into new york city and it is not clear as to whether the shots happened on the train or at the
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subway station at 25th street, and i can only assume the train was moving at the time. police are investigating as to whether a smoke device was detonated. the governor of new york has responsibility for the transportation network across the transportation network across the whole of the metropolitan area beyond new york city itself and of stevie may has responsibility for police and also for the fire service —— and obviously, the mayor has responsibility for police. we will return to new york when we have more details. lets speak now about our leading story this hour, to the labour mp... the labour mp for bury south, christian wakeford. you quit the
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tory party. you are a labour mp but a former conservative and one of the people who was a fan of boris johnson and i want to be clear what effect this has on you? i guess from your point of view it reinforces your point of view it reinforces your decision to quit? to your point of view it reinforces your decision to quit?- your point of view it reinforces your decision to quit? to be fair, even before _ your decision to quit? to be fair, even before i'd _ your decision to quit? to be fair, even before i'd made _ your decision to quit? to be fair, even before i'd made the - your decision to quit? to be fair, l even before i'd made the decision your decision to quit? to be fair, - even before i'd made the decision to quit i was speaking out against borisjohnson quit i was speaking out against boris johnson because quit i was speaking out against borisjohnson because i think it became quite clear that he wasn't fit to lead, so before i crossed the floor i had submitted my letter to graham brady about what we see... the ministerial code is explicit, this would normally be a resignation matter. we have a prime minister who isn't going to resign. a lawmaker who broke his own laws. lawmakers should not be lawbreakers. a
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criminal prime minister not respecting the country, prime minister —— country or parliament. he's running out of road pretty quickly. he's running out of road pretty ruickl . . ., he's running out of road pretty ruickl . ~ ., ,, he's running out of road pretty auickl._, , . he's running out of road pretty uickl. ,. , ., quickly. would you expect boris to resin if quickly. would you expect boris to resign if he — quickly. would you expect boris to resign if he was _ quickly. would you expect boris to resign if he was travelling - quickly. would you expect boris to resign if he was travelling 30 - quickly. would you expect boris to resign if he was travelling 30 mph | resign if he was travelling 30 mph in a 20 zone?— in a 20 zone? we're trying to get into semantics. _ in a 20 zone? we're trying to get into semantics. let _ in a 20 zone? we're trying to get into semantics. let me _ in a 20 zone? we're trying to get into semantics. let me tell- in a 20 zone? we're trying to get into semantics. let me tell you l in a 20 zone? we're trying to get i into semantics. let me tell you why i'm into semantics. let me tell you why i'm putting — into semantics. let me tell you why i'm putting it- _ into semantics. let me tell you why i'm putting it. the _ into semantics. let me tell you why i'm putting it. the fixed _ into semantics. let me tell you why i'm putting it. the fixed penalty i i'm putting it. the fixed penalty notice system is the same that's used for speeding fines. so in other somebody made a judgment that this isn't ground. this is something quite basic. people were fined different amounts of money depending on the circumstances but essentially having a gathering was not thought in itself to be such an egregious thing that it provoked for example a crown court appearance or a custodial sentence. regardless of whether it was in downing street or anywhere else in the country. it whether it was in downing street or anywhere else in the country. it was serious enough _ anywhere else in the country. it was serious enough to _ anywhere else in the country. it was serious enough to impose _ anywhere else in the country. it was serious enough to impose a - anywhere else in the country. it was serious enough to impose a £10,000 fine for anyone trying to organise a party. what we saw, the general
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public obeyed the rules boris johnson himself had made. many people couldn't see love ones, go to funerals, weddings being cancelled, big life moments were put on hold because they were the rules and we all followed them. we had to because that was what was asked to fast to keep your nails say. the fact that bg and rishi sunak —— the fact that borisjohnson and rishi sunak, you can't expect someone who makes the law to be breaking the law. to say it's the same as getting a parking ticket or speeding fine, it doesn't wash with me or the general public. i don't know if you still talk to some of yourformer i don't know if you still talk to some of your former conservative colleagues. i should some of your former conservative colleagues. ishould imagine, i know from previous conversations i've had with many defectors over the years from one party or another that actually quite often because of the tribal nature of politics, there's no going back and that the social links are broken as well as the political ones. do you get any sense
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of unease from former conservative colleagues? because a lot of them seem to be saying they were thinking about letters and then they were going to wait for sue gray and others have said, we are in an international crisis. whatever we think of borisjohnson, now is not the time to be changing prime minister, not the time to further destabilise politics. t minister, not the time to further destabilise politics.— minister, not the time to further destabilise politics. i know many --eole destabilise politics. i know many people who _ destabilise politics. i know many people who wrote _ destabilise politics. i know many people who wrote letters - destabilise politics. i know many people who wrote letters and i destabilise politics. i know many i people who wrote letters and then were waiting for sue gray and when that was redacted because of the police investigation they were waiting for the police investigation. that vote is now exhausted, we know that the prime minister broke the law so for those people who are waiting, there's nothing else to write for. you got the affirmation that you need, it's time to put in the letter. for anyone who says that my crossing the floor vented 54 letters eating 54 —— prevented 54 letters hitting that
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they, lying to parliament is a serious issue. we have a prime minister who doesn't respect the country and the office or anyone other than himself. he really needs to go and take his chancellor with him. , 2, to go and take his chancellor with him. , . 2 ., ,, ., . .,, him. christian wakeford, elected as conservative _ him. christian wakeford, elected as conservative mp _ him. christian wakeford, elected as conservative mp for _ him. christian wakeford, elected as conservative mp for bury _ him. christian wakeford, elected as conservative mp for bury south - him. christian wakeford, elected as conservative mp for bury south in l conservative mp for bury south in 2019 but is now a labour mp, thank you. borisjohnson and the chancellor, rishi sunak, are to be issued with fines over breaching lockdown regulations in downing street. that's the developing news this afternoon. detectives are looking into 12 events in government buildings that may have broken the rules; they've recommended 50 fines since their investigation began. it comes after the sue gray inquiry and the met police spent weeks investigating alleged covid lockdown breaching parties in downing street
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and across whitehall. at the request of the metabolic to police her report was redacted because they feared the investigation could be compromised by anything published in the report. they've spent several weeks investigating, interviewing, looking at evidence and earlier the met said 30 additionalfines have been issued, above the 20 originally issued. what isn't clear is whether that's a total of 50 people or more likely some people were issued with more than one fine because they attended more than one party. there have been reaction asking for the prime minister and chancellor to resign. the covid—19 bereaved families forjustice group have said there is "simply no way" the prime minister and chancellor can continue in their posts. the prime minister has addressed the issues of parties in downing street in the commons on a number of occasions. let's listen to what borisjohnson said at the start of december last year when asked about reports that parties had been taking place in downing street. allegations were published by the daily mirror newspaper that there
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had been parties in the downing street when the covid regulations made them unlawful. as millions of people were locked down last year, was a christmas party thrown in downing street for dozens of people on december the 18th? what i can tell the right honourable gentleman is that all guidance was followed, completely. a week later itv news obtained and published a video showing the prime minister then press adviser practising for a news conference in which her colleagues were asking her about a christmas party and she was debating how they could describe it as anything but a party. boris johnson responded to the video emerging with this statement. i understand and share the anger up and down the country at seeing number ten's staff assuming to make light of lockdown measures.
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number ten's staff seeming to make light of lockdown measures. and i can understand how infuriating it must be to think that the people who have been setting the rules have not been following the rules, mr speaker, because i was also furious to see that clip. and mr speaker, i apologise... i apologise unreservedly. i have asked the cabinet secretary to establish all the facts and to report back as soon as possible. 0ur political correspondent david wallace lockhart is at westminster. adam waggoner of the chambers, a campaignerfor the adam waggoner of the chambers, a campaigner for the correct on interpretation of laws regarding liberties say this isn't a criminal conviction, which it why it doesn't have to be declared, it is a criminal sanction. will that give much hope to downing street that
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this story in a sense will end up being rather brief and that people move on from it quite quickly? the prime minister hasn't been convicted of a crime. he's been sanctioned. you may not think they are another just. christian wakeford didn't think so when i wasted with him. but it is analogous to a fine one would get for speeding, socially not something that people approve of but they don't regard somebody�*s career or their personal life at an end because of it. it or their personal life at an end because of it.— or their personal life at an end because of it. it would be difficult for the prime _ because of it. it would be difficult for the prime minister _ because of it. it would be difficult for the prime minister to - because of it. it would be difficult for the prime minister to explain | because of it. it would be difficultl for the prime minister to explain it away using that logic. fundamentally i suspect most people, and this is the position of opposition parties, is that he is the leader who put in place covid regulations and now the met belief have —— the met police have fined him for breaching those regulations. i don't think the fact that a fine doesn't result in a
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criminal record for example is going to be enough to absolve boris johnson from getting quite a lot of criticism over the issue. the speeding analogy is a correct one in terms of the fine but when we think about the political reality, we know we are going to hearfrom about the political reality, we know we are going to hear from people who have lost family and had to have restricted funerals, people who struggled to visit relatives and care homes and hospitals, because these rules were so difficult for people, in a way that speeding really isn't, i think that will lead really isn't, i think that will lead really to political problems for borisjohnson and i suspect what most people will be hearing is that he has been fined for breaching the rules he and his government put into place. rules he and his government put into lace. 2 2, , rules he and his government put into lace. 2 ., , , ., place. where does this leave the re ort place. where does this leave the report that _ place. where does this leave the report that was _ place. where does this leave the report that was commissioned i place. where does this leave the | report that was commissioned by place. where does this leave the - report that was commissioned by the prime minister which ended up being sue gray, a senior civil servant, carrying it out... how much do we know about the prospect of that being published in full? it was
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redacted because the met were nervous that some of it may prejudice their investigations. aha, prejudice their investigations. while back, borisjohnson said he would have a senior civil servant, sue gray, looking into and reporting back on all the allegations, at that point, that there had been events in downing street and other buildings which breached covid regulations. squint to that the met police decided they would investigate, something they initially hadn't planned to do. as a result of that, sue gray, there was some talk of her not publishing until the police investigation was complete. she published an interim report where she was quite critical of the culture at least that had been going on during lockdown. she looked at 16 events, she was much cheaper past onto the met police but she said she wouldn't give her final report and judgment until the met police
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investigation had finished. a lot of tory mps said they wanted to withhold fulljudgment on boris johnson's behaviour until the sue gray report came back. potentially the sanction from the met police, that the prime minister and chancellor and now we know, carrie johnson, the prime minister's wife, it's potentially a game changer because that is the sanction coming from a police force saying that they've judged that the prime minister broke the rules and should be fined as a result. i'm sure that a sue gray report could be quite damaging. it feels that this is a significant moment in this entire partygate of air. you could ask —— you could argue that a fine from the police for breaking the covid regulations was the worst scenario in terms of optics for him. {line regulations was the worst scenario in terms of optics for him. one that
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is potentially _ in terms of optics for him. one that is potentially serious, _ in terms of optics for him. one that is potentially serious, and - in terms of optics for him. one that is potentially serious, and how- is potentially serious, and how serious we'll only know when we hear from conservative mps. david, i know that's something you and your colleagues are going to be finding out more of. thanks. joining me now is human rights barrister adam wagner from doughty street chambers — he has clients who were threatened with prosecution for allegedly breaking lockdown rules. i'v e i've quoted you already. tell us about the difference between a criminal conviction and a sanction. under the covid regulations there are a number of common offences for doing the things you'd expect them to before, attending gatherings, being outside the home without a reasonable excuse, that kind of thing. if the police believe that somebody has committed a criminal offence, they can give a person a fixed penalty notice, meaning instead of being charged with a criminal offence they can pay a
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certain amount of money ranging from £60, to £10,000. that's what's happened here. these are all of the powers the police have under criminal law. but as with other fixed penalty notices, the reason you fixed penalty notices, the reason y°u pay fixed penalty notices, the reason you pay it is because it avoids you being charged with a criminal offence and potentially coming out with a criminal record. 50 offence and potentially coming out with a criminal record.— with a criminal record. so in other words most _ with a criminal record. so in other words most people _ with a criminal record. so in other words most people will— with a criminal record. so in other words most people will take - with a criminal record. so in other words most people will take the l words most people will take the fixed penalty fine with some relief because there are other options which would be much more serious? absolutely because the police already believe you've committed a criminal offence and they could prosecute. you want to avoid that. the reason this system is set up and is a convenience for the police to do this, and get rid of the individual matter and move onto the next. that's over 80,000 fixed penalty notices given out during the pandemic. now, 50 more, as we've
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heard from this investigation. that's the way that the system works. 50 that's the way that the system works. ,, ., ., , that's the way that the system works. ., , ., that's the way that the system works. 2, , ., ., works. so it would be wrong to readin: works. so it would be wrong to reading to _ works. so it would be wrong to reading to the _ works. so it would be wrong to reading to the fact _ works. so it would be wrong to reading to the fact that - works. so it would be wrong to reading to the fact that fixed . reading to the fact that fixed penalty notices were established for this in this legislation, to read that as saying that in some ways the state or government introducing legislation was minimising the gravity of the breach of the law? you'd have to ask the government as to the reasoning but my understanding is that this is about the police being able to manage this extraordinary crisis, this extraordinary crisis, this extraordinary turnaround. extraordinary crisis, this extraordina turnaround. , extraordinary turnaround. presumably the were extraordinary turnaround. presumably they were worried _ extraordinary turnaround. presumably they were worried that _ extraordinary turnaround. presumably they were worried that lots _ extraordinary turnaround. presumably they were worried that lots of - they were worried that lots of people would do this in different parts of the country and it would be overwhelming. trlat parts of the country and it would be overwhelming-— overwhelming. not to mention the fact that the _ overwhelming. not to mention the fact that the courts _ overwhelming. not to mention the fact that the courts were _ overwhelming. not to mention the fact that the courts were going - overwhelming. not to mention the fact that the courts were going to l fact that the courts were going to struggle during covid as well. they couldn't open for a significant part of the pandemic. that's why fixed penalty notices make sense. it's to give people a warning that what
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you're doing breaks the law. but in a way that's manageable for the police. sis. a way that's manageable for the olice. �* , , police. a very interesting explanation, _ police. a very interesting explanation, i'm - police. a very interesting explanation, i'm very i police. a very interesting - explanation, i'm very grateful. putting this into context, a lot of people were fined at various stages. was there any pattern to this? is it for example that there were times in the pandemic when people were more likely to get fined or is it not as simple to make a calculation given presumably enforcement varied from force to force? t presumably enforcement varied from force to force?— force to force? i haven't looked at the statistics _ force to force? i haven't looked at the statistics recently _ force to force? i haven't looked at the statistics recently but - force to force? i haven't looked at the statistics recently but i - force to force? i haven't looked at the statistics recently but i think | the statistics recently but i think the statistics recently but i think the most fines were given out in the second lockdown in late 2020, early 2021, when there was a strong steer from government that they thought that compliance was going to be less because people were getting sick of being stuck indoors and that sort of thing. there was a strong steer for
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the police to get people fixed penalty notices. there were a lot, more given out in that period than at any other time, about 20,000. final point on this, in terms of the structure of these fines, there's quite a wide—ranging. but in some cases they could be worth up to £10,000. if cases they could be worth up to £10,000. , 2, cases they could be worth up to £10,000. _, ., ., , ., cases they could be worth up to £10,000. ., ., , ., ., £10,000. if you organise a gathering for over 30 people _ £10,000. if you organise a gathering for over 30 people in _ £10,000. if you organise a gathering for over 30 people in a _ £10,000. if you organise a gathering for over 30 people in a public - £10,000. if you organise a gathering for over 30 people in a public place l for over 30 people in a public place or at a private willing you could be fined £10,000 and if you attend it could be 50. the more likely situation is that it will be between 50 and 200. when you start getting multiple fixed penalty notices, for example the prime minister attended six gatherings being investigated, apparently, the first one will be 200 but the final one would be 6400, which would lead, in the unlikely
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event that he receives six sequential fixed event that he receives six sequentialfixed penalty event that he receives six sequential fixed penalty notice lure he could be on the hook for £10,000 collectively in fines.— collectively in fines. that's something _ collectively in fines. that's something we _ collectively in fines. that's something we don't - collectively in fines. that's something we don't know. j collectively in fines. that's i something we don't know. we collectively in fines. that's - something we don't know. we know that the fined has been fined but i'm not aware that any undertaken has been given to tell us how much. no, but my best guess, given that it's rishi sunak and carriejohnson who have apparently been given fixed penalty notices, the only gathering they attended was the prime minister's birthday party, so this is most likely to be about that gathering because they were given a fixed penalty notice in the group and if that's the case it is likely to be a £200 fixed penalty notice.
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thank you. let me bring you up—to—date on some of the other political reaction. we had a tweet from the leader of the labour party sir keir starmer who said: i have to say, echoing what so ed davey was telling me on the programme in the last hour. let's get conservative reaction. i'm delighted to say that the mp for lichfield michael fabricantjoins me lichfield michael fabricant joins me from lichfield michael fabricantjoins me from his constituency, the place where the mp for lichfield should be. what do you make of this? well. be. what do you make of this? well, it's been a long _ be. what do you make of this? well, it's been a long time _ be. what do you make of this? well, it's been a long time coming - be. what do you make of this? 2ii it's been a long time coming and now it's been a long time coming and now it's come. a lot of people anticipated that this was going to happen when the whole partygate, as it was known, broke out. but now the
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prime minister should certainly go and make a statement to the house of commons on tuesday and i think he's got to apologise. having said that i don't think that at any time he thought he was breaking the law. at the time he thought, like many teachers and nurses who, after a very long shift, would tend to go back to the staff room and have a quiet drink, which is more or less what he has done... i don't know much about the birthday party you talked about. i wasn't invited! i don't think he thought he was breaking the law but that doesn't make any sort of excuse. but we've got to carry on governing. i find it rather strange that keir starmer is now saying he should resign when they wake alone —— a week ago he said he shouldn't go because of the ukraine crisis. you
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said he shouldn't go because of the ukraine crisis.— ukraine crisis. you said all of those teachers _ ukraine crisis. you said all of those teachers and _ ukraine crisis. you said all of those teachers and nurses i ukraine crisis. you said all of. those teachers and nurses who ukraine crisis. you said all of- those teachers and nurses who were going back to the staff room and having a drink. you no more than i do because i haven't heard about this. 2 ., ~ ., ., ., this. well, i do know of some who did and you _ this. well, i do know of some who did and you know, _ this. well, i do know of some who did and you know, it's _ this. well, i do know of some who did and you know, it's quite - did and you know, it's quite natural. i'm not saying they were having party or borisjohnson was having party or borisjohnson was having a party. i note nurses... i don't think they were doing anything wrong. they work really hard on a long shift and would go back to the staff room and have a drink. i think that's more or less what's happened on a few of these occasions. t on a few of these occasions. i understand why, and you're a good party man and loyal to your leader and the rest of it and that's perfectly admirable... t’m and the rest of it and that's perfectly admirable... i'm not alwa s perfectly admirable... i'm not always loyal! _ perfectly admirable... i'm not always loyal! i— perfectly admirable... i'm not always loyal! i can't _ perfectly admirable... i'm not always loyal! i can't be - perfectly admirable... i'm not. always loyal! i can't be counted perfectly admirable... i'm not - always loyal! i can't be counted on. never take anyone for granted. your instincts are loyalty to your party, is that fair?— i -
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is that fair? yes, that's fair. i want to put — is that fair? yes, that's fair. i want to put this _ is that fair? yes, that's fair. i want to put this to _ is that fair? yes, that's fair. i want to put this to you. - is that fair? yes, that's fair. i want to put this to you. i - want to put this to you. i understand the point you're making about people meeting after work and the rest of it. isn't the station here that invitations were sent out, people were invited to bring bottles? in any common parlance it was a party, an event, and it was happening inside downing street, particular gatherings... hang happening inside downing street, particular gatherings. . ._ particular gatherings... hang on. let me finish _ particular gatherings... hang on. let me finish the _ particular gatherings... hang on. let me finish the question - particular gatherings... hang on. let me finish the question and i particular gatherings... hang on. | let me finish the question and i'll give you time to respond. and this was happening in the context of the time when for example the home secretary had said to people, if you see your neighbours having a party or getting friends around and the rest of it, you should call the police. there's a real sense of pots and kettles, here. let police. there's a real sense of pots and kettles, here.— and kettles, here. let me get the answer in. _ and kettles, here. let me get the answer in, then. _ and kettles, here. let me get the answer in, then. the _ and kettles, here. let me get the answer in, then. the event - and kettles, here. let me get the answer in, then. the event you i and kettles, here. let me get the l answer in, then. the event you are talking about when invitations were sent out was from a senior civil servant who was leaving. it was a senior civil servant who was leaving, a party that they sent out
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invitations to. borisjohnson certainly didn't attend. he was 45 miles away. that's the one event you talk about that didn't involve, certainly, borisjohnson on that occasion. he was at chequers and he didn't know anything about it. you've got to bury mind that there are over 300 offices in the downing street complex. it's a massive complex, as i'm sure you will know. yes, i've walked around it, i know what you're saying and it's quite a pokey place at times.— what you're saying and it's quite a pokey place at times. yeah. that's another reason _ pokey place at times. yeah. that's another reason why _ pokey place at times. yeah. that's another reason why any _ pokey place at times. t'2ét that's another reason why any gatherings pokey place at times. t22t that's another reason why any gatherings of this kind should have rung alarm bells in people's minds. we have the head of ethics in number ten at government, somebody senior in the covid task force, the prime minister and chancellor, that must raise questions about the culture and leadership in the middle of a pandemic when the prime minister repeatedly went on television from
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the downing street broadcasting area both journalists and directly to the public to say, this is a terribly dangerous illness, we are asking you to accept major impositions on your liberty, organisations like bereaved families for covid are saying, some of us suffered terribly, we couldn't even have funerals without families. all of those things were because we obeyed the law and then these people in downing street didn't obey the law. you can understand why people feel so strongly, can't you? t do feel so strongly, can't you? i do but our feel so strongly, can't you? i do but your questions _ feel so strongly, can't you? t if but your questions are longer than my answers. t’itt but your questions are longer than my answers-— my answers. i'm terrible for that! either see — my answers. i'm terrible for that! either see -- _ my answers. i'm terrible for that! either see -- i— my answers. i'm terrible for that! either see -- i see _ my answers. i'm terrible for that! either see -- i see the _ my answers. i'm terrible for that! either see -- i see the point - my answers. i'm terrible for that! either see -- i see the point that| either see —— i see the point that you make but these were about not spreading the disease to outsiders. if you went to a wedding or too many people went to a funeral... i know people went to a funeral... i know people in the lichfield constituency who couldn't say goodbye to loved ones because of this. it was to stop
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spreading the disease to people that they wouldn't otherwise meet. the point about these events, and it's no excuse, they were breaking the law, so it seems, unless the prime minister chooses to contest, which he can always do, a fixed penalty notice, but i don't think he will. the point is, they will have thought, these are people, like the nurses i mentioned earlier, they've been working together through the day, not bringing in new people, fresh people from outside, these are people who have been working together through the day, so it wouldn't be spreading the disease. it was among the people already working closely. and we do need to know of course that it is indeed a place where the disease spreads quickly, you're quite right, because we know for example matt hancock, rishi sunak and of course the prime minister who went into intensive
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care, they all caught the disease because of those cramped working conditions but it wouldn't have been made any worse by having a drink at the end of the day because they were the end of the day because they were the same people, working cheek by jowl with, through the day. and most of the time at that time they were trying to source the vaccines, which saved us all. tt trying to source the vaccines, which saved us all-— saved us all. it doesn't take away from the fact _ saved us all. it doesn't take away from the fact that _ saved us all. it doesn't take away from the fact that the _ saved us all. it doesn't take away from the fact that the regulations and the law were broken, and that's now the police's judgment. and the law were broken, and that's now the police'sjudgment. i don't know if you were one of the conservatives who were waiting for the sue gray report before deciding whether to submit a letter calling for a vote of no—confidence in the prime minister. what's position now? no, the prime minister still has my support especially at this difficult time in ukraine. i think genuinely, when he went to the house and said, i don't think i was breaking any law, i don't think he did think he
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was breaking any law. i know there will be many exasperated people watching the programme now, following up their hands in horror but as i said just now, these are people he'd been working with all the day through, some 16, even 18 hour days, so having a drink with them afterwards he will have thought, that's not spreading the disease. t thought, that's not spreading the disease. ~ ., , needs to make a statement to the house on tuesday. i mean, where we go from here is interesting. weak have two possibilities which are out of the prime minister's cans. 0ne have two possibilities which are out of the prime minister's cans. one is that keir starmer decides to put down a motion of no confidence in the government and then it will be interesting to see, you know, how mps vote on that. the other possibility is that some people who i suspect were just waiting to do it to see if he was prosecuted, will put their names in two graham brady,
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the chairman of the 1922 committee, to have a vote of no—confidence in leader, this is actually within the conservative party itself, whether there would be enough names, i don't know. i certainly will not be putting my name in. has it been much talked about by you and your colleagues over the last few weeks or has it died away? there was a frenzied moment, just before the ukraine situation, indeed before the police said they were starting an investigation when it seemed like it was a moment when a combination of circumstances had made it almost feel like it was inevitable that there would be a vote of confidence. that's right. i think a lot of people decided to hang. some will hang anyway, they'll say, look, probably not the right time to be getting rid of the prime minister,
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what's happening in ukraine. 0thers what's happening in ukraine. others will have been waiting for this. i'm not going to name names but i can think of a few colleagues. {so not going to name names but i can think of a few colleagues.- think of a few colleagues. go on! peole think of a few colleagues. go on! people who _ think of a few colleagues. go on! people who despise _ think of a few colleagues. go on! people who despise boris - think of a few colleagues. go on! | people who despise boris johnson people who despise borisjohnson because he got us out of the european union and they despise brexit, they'll say fantastic. now is the opportunity and we'll put names in. whether it will be enough to trigger a vote of no confidence within the party is another matter. and keir starmer is the one demanding, you know, that the prime minister resigned. is he going to take the risk, and it is a risk, because as you and i know from our political history, opposition leaders who put down a motion of no—confidence in the government with considerable risks attached. especially one when it has a big majority. exactly. turkeys don't vote for christmas. it could be that some people might want to put a name in
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to the leader of the 1922, the chairman of the 1922, sir graham brady, to change the leader of the party, they may not be willing to have a general election because let's be clear, as we know from the constitution of the united kingdom and other countries, if the opposition when a vote of no confidence, then the leader of the party in power, the prime minister, has to go to the queen and resign and it triggers a general election. not everyone will want to do that. we're about to hear from bereaved families campaign. there must be people in your constituency who were bereaved during covid, of course. i don't know if any of them have expressed anger about the partygate allegations. what would you say to those who feel particularly raw about this because of what they went through? t do about this because of what they went throu~h? 2, , ., ., about this because of what they went throu~h? 2, , . ., ., through? i do understand that and there are people _ through? i do understand that and there are people in _ through? i do understand that and there are people in my _ through? i do understand that and. there are people in my constituency who were unable to attend funerals
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but i would say the prime minister's mother died during lockdown and i would say the prime minister himself ended up in intensive care and almost died so he doesn't underestimate the importance of the rules he had set and i would simply ask for a little bit of understanding that he will have said and thought that all the people who attended these so—called parties, and some were quiet drinks at the end of a long day, he would have thought, these are people i'm working cheek byjowl with anyway and i won't have been spreading the disease, he would have said. and all these rules were to stop contagion with people that you are not normally within your bubble. michael fabricant, thanks _ normally within your bubble. michael fabricant, thanks for _ normally within your bubble. michael fabricant, thanks forjoining - normally within your bubble. michael fabricant, thanks forjoining us. - joining me now is jackie green,
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a member of the covid — 19 bereaved families forjustice group — her mum beryl died in december 2020. when one of the downing street christmas parties was held. you heard what michael fabricant gave as a defence, so what is your response to that interpretation of events back then?— response to that interpretation of events back then? clearly he doesn't understand at _ events back then? clearly he doesn't understand at all— events back then? clearly he doesn't understand at all what _ events back then? clearly he doesn't understand at all what people - events back then? clearly he doesn't understand at all what people like i understand at all what people like me went through and also people that were affected in other ways by covid. i was disgusted quite frankly that he first of all decided to divert the spotlight onto nurses and teachers which is absolutely appalling, and then to say that they
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were working within a bubble at number ten, well, were working within a bubble at numberten, well, i were working within a bubble at number ten, well, iwould were working within a bubble at number ten, well, i would ask him, were all those people living there as well? he is saying that they were not spreading disease is absolute nonsense. it would be laughable if it wasn't so terrible. the nonsense. it would be laughable if it wasn't so terrible.— it wasn't so terrible. the prime minister has _ it wasn't so terrible. the prime minister has been _ it wasn't so terrible. the prime minister has been fined - it wasn't so terrible. the prime minister has been fined and i it wasn't so terrible. the prime minister has been fined and so| it wasn't so terrible. the prime i minister has been fined and so has the chancellor and the prime minister's wife and also the person who was in charge of ethics at number ten and somebody involved with the covid task force, so given the number of fines that have been issued,isit the number of fines that have been issued, is it your sense that everybody was just consciously cheerfully breaking the law or people just basically didn't understand their own regulations? tt they didn't understand them, they really have no business being in
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office. itjust sounds like a complete free for all, really, in terms of the parties. when they were first reported, just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, then another party and another party. i reallyjust think they had complete disregard for people in this country who they are supposed to be leading. reallyjust didn't care about the rest of us. they decided they were working hard and so deserved a get together and bring in suitcases full of booze. that so deserved a get together and bring in suitcases full of booze.— in suitcases full of booze. that was one event where _ in suitcases full of booze. that was one event where there _ in suitcases full of booze. that was one event where there is _ in suitcases full of booze. that was one event where there is evidence | in suitcases full of booze. that was i one event where there is evidence of that and we know about one event where people were getting quite merry in the garden at downing street, the night before the duke of
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edinburgh's funeral, an event the prime minister was not at because he was at chequers, the point michael fabricant was making, but notwithstanding that, from what you went through with your mother, it is important to draw the contrast between what you didn't do because you wanted to keep her safe. t hadn't seen my mother in ten months because we were in lockdown for most of that time and then she went into hospital in december 2020 with severe anaemia and caught covid when she was in hospital and she died on the 18th of december, at which time i hadn't seen herfor ten months. i used to speak to her every day on the phone but she was a widow and lived alone. and that was very hard for her. she was very lonely. the thing for me that is most
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devastating is that she died on her own and i wasn't there to hold her hand. 2, , own and i wasn't there to hold her hand. , ., hand. nobody can ever compensate or brina that hand. nobody can ever compensate or bring that chance, _ hand. nobody can ever compensate or bring that chance, that _ hand. nobody can ever compensate or bring that chance, that has _ hand. nobody can ever compensate or bring that chance, that has gone, - bring that chance, that has gone, and i completely sympathise with what you are saying about that. lovely pictures, by the way. that leads me to the next question, what do you want to happen now? the fines have happened and the prime minister have happened and the prime minister have included the prime minister and the chancellor did break the law and they have been fined. is that it now? do you draw any satisfaction from feeling that for all the complaints and protests, it has come to something? trio. complaints and protests, it has come to something?— to something? no, because this should be the _ to something? no, because this should be the start _ to something? no, because this should be the start now. - to something? no, because this should be the start now. these l to something? no, because this - should be the start now. these fines are very important because they are actually saying that the prime minister has broken the law and i
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would say to anybody out there who supports borisjohnson, do we want a prime minister that has continually evaded questions and lied both to the british public and to parliament about these parties? he is completely untrustworthy and devoid of any integrity whatsoever. he's not fit to lead this country and he should do decent thing, for once, and step down as prime minister. sorry to interrupt. we should just say, you have no connection with any political party. say, you have no connection with any political party-— say, you have no connection with any political party-_ i - political party. none at all. i assumed — political party. none at all. i assumed that _ political party. none at all. i assumed that was _ political party. none at all. i assumed that was the - political party. none at all. i assumed that was the case | political party. none at all. i i assumed that was the case but political party. none at all. i - assumed that was the case but we needed to get that on the record. you are saying this on the basis of what your feelings are and what you have been through, and michael fabricant said, he didn't think he
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lied, but hejust fabricant said, he didn't think he lied, but he just didn't understand, what do you make of that? he either thinks that we _ what do you make of that? he either thinks that we are _ what do you make of that? he either thinks that we are falls _ what do you make of that? he either thinks that we are falls or— what do you make of that? he either thinks that we are falls or the - thinks that we are falls or the prime minister is a fool because the prime minister is a fool because the prime minister is a fool because the prime minister and his government created these rules and to say he didn't really understand them all was —— or was not aware of what was going on, it's not really good enough. going on, it's not really good enou:h. 2. going on, it's not really good enou:h. . ., 2, , , enough. thanks for “oining us. it is aood to enough. thanks for “oining us. it is good to speak — enough. thanks for “oining us. it is good to speak to _ enough. thanks forjoining us. it is good to speak to you _ enough. thanks forjoining us. it is good to speak to you despite - enough. thanks forjoining us. it is good to speak to you despite the i good to speak to you despite the circumstances. joining me now is our correspondent tim muffett who's at new scotland yard. this is one of the last acts of cressida dick's leadership at the metropolitan police. of course she is no longer the commissioner, after leaving thejob on is no longer the commissioner, after leaving the job on sunday. do you get a sense that the police feel that they were slightly dragged into
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this and they didn't want to originally investigate and they came in because the government said actually there is something to investigate but actually it was a dreadful business to come into this and in a sense they are damned if they do and damned if they don't? people will say they did not take it seriously or they are taking it too seriously. seriously or they are taking it too seriousl . ~ 2. , seriously or they are taking it too seriousl . , , .,, seriously or they are taking it too seriousl . , , ., , ., seriously. many people will draw that conclusion _ seriously. many people will draw that conclusion and _ seriously. many people will draw that conclusion and there - seriously. many people will draw that conclusion and there has i seriously. many people will draw i that conclusion and there has been little comment from the police today, just a statement saying 50 referrals for fixed penalty notices have been passed on to the criminal records office for breaches of covid regulations and they will issue those two individuals and it says it is making every effort to progress investigation at good speed and they continue to assess significant amounts of investigative material. very interesting situation for the police. 0riginally sue gray the civil servant investigated the alleged gatherings and at first the
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police said they did not want to get involved but when she passed information to them they said they did. she investigated 16 alleged parties and they have under operation hillman have investigated 12 gatherings in eight dates and we know the prime minister attended three of those, on the 20th of may, in 2020, in the downing street garden, the 19th ofjune, in the cabinet room, an event for his birthday, and on the 13th of november 20 to mark the departure of a special adviser. —— 2020. there has been so much fury and anger, that many people followed the rules but the prime minister and the chancellor didn't. the ramifications of that, we are experiencing them this afternoon. in february the metropolitan police said it was reviewing its original decision not to investigate a christmas quiz on the 15th of december 2020 which came about following the leaking of a picture to the daily mirror, so many
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feel the police have played catch up, if you like. it has now issued these unprecedented notifications, these unprecedented notifications, the fixed penalty notices, so an extraordinary afternoon and an extraordinary afternoon and an extraordinary sequence of events and many people in westminster and elsewhere are digesting this. th elsewhere are digesting this. in terms of what we know and don't know, presumably we don't know if these are 50 fixed penalty notices to 50 different people because maybe some people may have been fined for attending multiple parties and we also don't know the size of the fines? also don't know the size of the fines? . also don't know the size of the fines? ., ., �* 2 , also don't know the size of the fines? ., 2, �* 2 , 2, also don't know the size of the fines? 2, 2, �* 2 , ., :: fines? no, we don't. we 'ust note 50 referrals fines? no, we don't. we 'ust note 50 referrers have — fines? no, we don't. we 'ust note 50 referrals have been i fines? no, we don't. we just note 50 referrals have been given _ fines? no, we don't. we just note 50 referrals have been given to - fines? no, we don't. we just note 50 referrals have been given to the i referrals have been given to the criminal records office and it is that office which then contacts the individuals but spokespeople for the prime minister, the chancellor and prime minister, the chancellor and
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prime minister's wife had confirmed they be receiving a fine. fixed penalty notices are regarded as a low—level sanction and there is not a criminal record as a result but there is the fact it is logged on an official system so many people will take that into account. an extraordinary and unprecedented situation nevertheless.— extraordinary and unprecedented situation nevertheless. thanks for “oininr us. situation nevertheless. thanks for joining us- it _ situation nevertheless. thanks for joining us- it is — situation nevertheless. thanks for joining us. it is not _ situation nevertheless. thanks for joining us. it is not a _ situation nevertheless. thanks for joining us. it is not a criminal- joining us. it is not a criminal conviction but a criminal sanction, but as adam pointed out earlier, it doesn't that these are not significant, but because they were worried about when they drafted this legislation that people, the police and courts might be overwhelmed by the number of punishments that would need to be dealt with, rather than that going through the courts which might take weeks and months, and even longer during the pandemic, of
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course, that it would be quicker and more efficient to phrase —— fine people and this would help to minimise the delays in the system and that doesn't mean that they thought the actual offences of breaching the coronavirus regulations, given we were in a pandemic with note, at that stage, any treatment that could protect people, —— with no, at that stage, any treatment that could protect people. consequently that was how seriously the legislation was regarded, so it is fair to say we should not be too distracted by the fine aspect, to think that meant the government minimised breaching the regulations, and for anybody who was caught breaching those regulations, for those who ended up facing quite big fines, they would recognise that it was regarded as quite a serious matter at the time. a reminder of our top story.
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prime minister borisjohnson and chancellor rishi sunak will be fined by the police for breaking lockdown laws. the prime minister's wife, carriejohnson, will also be given a fixed penalty notice. officials confirmed the three had received notification of the fines from the met, following an investigation into illegal parties in downing street during covid lockdowns. jill rutter, a senior research fellow at uk in a changing europe, has been giving me her reaction. the prime minister repeatedly assured parliament that there were no parties and now effectively the police are saying, "well, prime minister, you were present at a party, "that's why you've got a fixed penalty notice." so if the prime minister accepts the fine and doesn't contest it then he's effectively admitting that he was indeed at a party.
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we got into all sorts of semantics over whether it was a party. thankfully, we no longer have to go into that because the police have definitively said that these were parties, contrary to the terms of the legislation, the rules the government had set. camilla cavendish, herself a former downing street insider, said that she found it extraordinary, the government head of ethics, someone who had been senior in the covid task force and the prime minister, as we now know is the case, and the chancellor of exchequer, being found guilty of breaching rules that they were responsible for creating. surely, as far as you can recall, it is something without precedent? yes, i think that's pretty safe to say. it's an area where you've got a lot of very senior people in both the government, senior ministers and very senior officials in the cabinet office, facing fines is unprecedented.
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this story continues like a serial whodunnit where we find out more each week about who has been fined by the met. in that sense it's quite damaging for the government, the drip, drip of this. the met are not even saying this is the end of the process. i don't think it's the end because we assume there are more people in the frame, there maybe some who decide to contest these fines. i think it would have been better if the met had stayed their hand and at the end of the day had issued a full list of everybody who had been fined, whose names they would disclose, so we knew that that was the end of the met police investigation and then we could move onto the next stage, the publication of the full sue gray report which the prime minister was forced to concede would be published at the end of the met investigation. we're waiting to see when we get
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the final sue gray report. we never know what impact political stories have on political campaigns, but notwithstanding it's a local election campaign and we've been told contradictory things by the parties. "vote for us because the other lot are a disaster nationally, but also "this is about local politics." that's the nature of the beast. presumably, the timing of this isn't anything the government would want when they are facing what could be a difficult set of english local elections. the timing is not great. it was never going to be great for the prime minister in a sense because so much of the news is overshadowed by ukraine. the timing may not be the worst it could be. interesting, as well, that the chancellor has been fined because a lot of the attention is on the chancellor at the moment as well as the prime minister which may help the prime minister to an extent. the prime minister maybe pleased that if this is the only fine he gets that this story is out of the way before easter and quite
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distant from the local elections but also from talking to people i know who have been canvassing in local elections, they seem to be saying that a lot of people have made up their minds. if you'd made up your mind on partygate, you probably didn't need to wait for the met police to say that the prime minister was guilty as charged because you'd already taken that from everything he said before. i'm not sure it's going to change many minds. maybe it has validation by the investigating force that the prime minister was indeed at an illegal gathering is not great news in the middle of a campaign. i wonder what pressure it may put on conservative mps who said they would make their mind up about the prime minister's leadership when they'd heard
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from sue gray whether it will be enough for them to have heard from the metropolitan police. we're expecting the report soon. your analysis, as a former insider in the whitehall machine, what effect has this had on whitehall�*s self—confidence, this process? you and many of your senior colleagues are potentially facing investigation, fines, that will be very unsettling. i think there will be a lot of recriminations. "how did we get into this?" there should be some introspection. so many senior people were involved. one interesting question for whitehall, and hopefully there will be more in sue gray's report, how did whitehall get itself into a position where it was deeming itself to be so outside the rules that applied to everybody else? it seems a mentality took hold, that these parties, these gatherings, were all 0k. we heard the party for which there were fines last week
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that helen mcnamara, the government head of propriety and ethics, who should have been enforcing that, was fined for a party taking place in the former cabinet secretary's office. the interesting question around whitehall, how did this culture get so messed up, if you like, that nobody was saying or not enough people were saying, "hey, we're doing the wrong thing here"? it's curious. we've got to a stage now, certainly in the most recent discussions around partygate, the cabinet minister saying that people like getting terribly worked up about this, "making a mountain out of a mole hill." "if it happened, it was entirely understandable, people "under great pressure, working in difficult circumstances," making excuses for it. a matter of months before, the home secretary had said to people that if you think your neighbours are holding a party, you should ring the police. it seems as if this business of allegations about parties,
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which we are told happened, according to the met, has forced the government to contradict itself in a rather convoluted exercise of self—justification. yes, it's very difficult. you can see why to an extent people who were going into the office anyway, relatively few people going into offices where they worked, although people working in shops, in factories, in hospitals, were going into work. you can see you might get into the mode of saying, "well, "we can't go out and celebrate that somebody is leaving in the pub "like we would normally so why don't we get in a few bottles of wine?" then you do that. but a lot of these events look like much more, as far as we can see, than having a quick glass of wine for a departing colleague at your desk with nobody coming into an office who wasn't there anyway for work reasons. so it seems that maybe whitehall
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slid down a very slippery slope where the first events might have been relatively harmless, into ones that look much more like full—scale singing and dancing, quite literally, parties. it's quite difficult to work out what happened so it's an interesting question. it raises big questions about ministers, because ministers tend to come to leaving parties. what did they know? interesting that they have now been fined, including the prime minister, but it raises huge questions for the leadership of the civil service, how did they get this so badly wrong? they should have been the people, if ministerial instincts were wrong, it should have been civil servant saying, "look, you are telling "the public to do one thing. "we cannot be seen to be doing the other thing." you normally expect senior civil servants to act as a second line of defence when ministers�* political instincts fail them. one final question on that, i wonder where this leaves the cabinet secretary simon case, who had to recuse himself from the inquiry. that was the point of
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sue gray conducting it. he walked through a party, apparently, as he was leaving the office one day. e—mails were sent from his own office, if not from him. there has to be a question mark over the authority of the most senior civil servant in the light of this. yeah, it seems a culture took hold under his predecessor, before simon case had even come back into government in the summer of 2020. so, in a sense, he might have inherited a culture that was already seeing these as perfectly 0k and legitimate. in that sense, he might be a bit unlucky but at the moment, simon case hasn't been fined, yet. we don't know if he will be or not. but clearly he didn't clamp down on this culture when he became the cabinet secretary. must have been involved, given some of the officials involved, you would assume that simon case
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at least knew about some of these parties even if he wasn't there with a glass of wine in his hand. i think he'll be feeling very exposed. we've had those high—profile departures from downing street. in a sense, simon case is in the frame. as with the prime minister, we've been told if simon case is fined. that was jill ruttter earlier. we have this from douglas ross, the leader of the scottish conservative party. he says, although the public is furious, as he previously made clear, to change prime minister now would destabilise the uk government when we need to be united in the face of russian aggression in the murder of innocent ukrainians. it will be interesting to see how many
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similar conservatives take that line on why they do not now want a leadership election or a vote of confidence. 0ur political correspondent said he thinks about 54 letters would need to be submitted and some will have been submitted and some will have been submitted already and some might have been withdrawn, we don't know. we also have the developing situation in new york city where on tuesday morning, this is the scene in brooklyn, and it is now approaching 11 o'clock in the morning. the incident concerned, at least 13 people have been injured in a shooting that took place inside a subway station and authorities say unexploded devices were found and
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police have warned people to stay away from the scene which is near 36th st in the sunset park neighbourhood. that is not manhattan, but brooklyn, as i understand it. it is the n train, the line which runs across part of brooklyn. firefighters responded to a report of smoke at the station and found multiple people injured. the suspect did flee the scene. apparently he was wearing an orange inspection vest, which you see all the time there because of construction, so that might not have been suspicious. firefighters responded to reports. there is a huge presence of police and emergency response vehicles there
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now and it is affecting the thoroughfare from downtown brooklyn to the parkway. now it's time for a look at the weather with stav danaos. hello there. the rest of this week is looking pretty quiet weather—wise. high pressure will be largely dominating the weather scene. we should see a lot of dry and settled weather around. variable amounts of cloud. some sunshine as well. the odd shower. what you will notice is it will be feeling quite warm for the time of year. 0ur air source will be coming in from the south and you can see the oranges and yellows dominating the weather map. for the rest of today, it has been wet through central and western areas. that rain has continued to spill its way northwards to northern england and scotland as the afternoon wears on. one or two showers following on behind but there will be some sunny spells around, the best of it across the south—east quadrant. it will be quite warm with temperatures up to 19 or 20 degrees. a little less so further north. pollen levels through the day will be moderate for england and wales.
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a little bit lower further north and of course lower where you have that rainfall. as we head through the evening and overnight, that area of rain continues to spill its way northwards gradually. it will take its time to clear from the north—east of the uk but further south it will be dry with clear spells and there will be some mist and fog and low cloud developing. nowhere is going to be particularly cold with lows of six to 10 degrees. wednesday morning, we start off cloudy and damp across the north and east of scotland. that rain will clear away and then it's a brighter afternoon with some good spells of sunshine developing. but there will be a few showers dotted around and some of these could perhaps turn out heavy and thundery. but a warmer day generally across the board with temperatures into the mid to high teens for many of us again. a top temperature of 20 degrees. wednesday night, it looks like it will turn grey and misty across central and western areas. some low cloud around. but it's going to be a fairly mild night especially in england and wales. it does mean for thursday we could start off rather grey with low cloud and mist affecting coastal areas, particularly around the irish sea coast. probably the best of the sunshine in parts of the midlands
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and the south—east where we could see 20 degrees again. but even where we have the cloud, some bright spells further north with temperatures around the mid—teens. as we move into the easter weekend it looks like high pressure will dominate the scene for a while but there is a bit of uncertainty about if and when this high pressure breaks down and if it does so it will allow these areas of low pressure to push on from the west for part two of the easter weekend. so i think certainly to start with it will be warm and there will be some dry and bright weather around, but the chance of rain towards the second part
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this is bbc news. i'm ben brown live at downing street. the headlines. the prime minister and the chancellor will both be fined by the police for attending parties during lockdown. the pm's wife, carriejohnson, will also be given a fixed penalty notice. the prime minister has been challenged on the issue a number of times in the commons — in december he insisted no rules were broken. all guidance was followed completely during... the labour leader says both borisjohnson and rishi sunak have broken the law and calls on them both to resign. familes of people who died with covid having been reacting
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with anger to today's news. he's completely untrustworthy and devoid of any integrity whatsoever. he's not fit to lead this country. and i'm shaun ley with the rest of today's top stories... multiple people have been shot at a subway station in new york. pictures have emerged of passengers covered in blood lying on the station floor. western countries call for an urgent investigation, after ukraine acusses russia of a chemical attack in mariupol. good afternoon and welcome to bbc news. a welcome to bbc news. dramatic day of political ne
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borisjohnson and the chancellor, rishi sunak, are to be issued with fines over breaching lockdown regulations in downing street. police are looking into 12 events in government buildings that may have broken the rules; they've recommended 50 fines since their investigation began. it comes after the sue gray inquiry and the met police spent weeks investigating alleged covid lockdown—breaching parties in downing street and across whitehall. earlier the met police said that 30 furtherfines had been issued bringing the total number to over 50. the news has sparked calls from opposition figures across the political spectrum for the prime minister and chancellor to resign. the covid—19 bereaved families forjustice group have said there is "simply no way" the prime minister and chancellor can continue in their posts. the prime minister has addressed the issues of parties in downing street in the commons
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on a number of occasions. let's see what borisjohnson said at the start of december last year when asked about reports that parties had been taking place in downing street. as millions of people were locked down last year, was a christmas party thrown in downing street for dozens of people on december the 18th? what i can tell the right honourable gentleman is that all guidance was followed, completely. a week later, after a video was obtained by itv news showing the prime minister's advisors joking about a christmas party, borisjohnson made this statement in the commons. i understand and share the anger up and down the country at seeing number ten's staff seeming to make light of lockdown measures. and i can understand
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how infuriating it must be to think that the people who have been setting the rules have not been following the rules, mr speaker, because i was also furious to see that clip. and mr speaker, i apologise... i apologise unreservedly. i have asked the cabinet secretary to establish all the facts and to report back as soon as possible. let's get reaction to the news from the snp west mr leader, ian blackford. thanks for being with us. the prime minister and chancellor are to be fined as is carrie johnson. what's your immediate reaction? tt’s johnson. what's your immediate reaction? �* . johnson. what's your immediate reaction? 3 ., ., reaction? it's quite remarkable and historical. boris _ reaction? it's quite remarkable and historical. boris johnson _ reaction? it's quite remarkable and historical. boris johnson is - reaction? it's quite remarkable and historical. boris johnson is the i historical. borisjohnson is the first prime minister to be charged in office. ben, this goes to the foundations of our parliamentary
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democracy. 0ne foundations of our parliamentary democracy. one thing that's absolutely clear, if you mislead parliament and lied to parliament, then you resign. there is no ifs and buts. we know this prime minister has lied to parliament. think about the millions of people up and down these islands who follow the rules laid down by this government, this prime minister. borisjohnson and rishi sunak were ignoring their own rules. there was no dignity, no self—respect. we need to see the prime minister accepting responsibility. i have written to him this afternoon. he's the only person who can recall parliament. i'm asking that he recalls parliament on thursday, get in touch with the speaker now so that parliament can be reformed, but he comes to the house and offers his resignation which is then followed by the chancellor making his own statement. in amongst all of this, ben, we must see the full publication of the sue gray report. this is a stain on our public life.
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this is a stain on our public life. this prime minister no longer has the moral authority to lead this country. he should go and he should go now. country. he should go and he should ro now. ., country. he should go and he should ro now. 2, country. he should go and he should ro now. ., , ., country. he should go and he should . now. ., , ., ., ., country. he should go and he should ronow. ., , ., ., ., , go now. you say he should go now but some of his — go now. you say he should go now but some of his fiercest _ go now. you say he should go now but some of his fiercest critics _ go now. you say he should go now but some of his fiercest critics within i some of his fiercest critics within the conservative party on the backbenches, like sir roger gale, are now saying that now is not the right time because we have the war in ukraine, a major international crisis and this isn't the time for destabilisation in british government.— destabilisation in british rovernment. . �*, , ., , destabilisation in british rovernment. ., , , government. that's precisely why he should ro. government. that's precisely why he should go. there _ government. that's precisely why he should go. there is _ government. that's precisely why he should go. there is a _ government. that's precisely why he should go. there is a cross-party i should go. there is a cross—party consensus. we have allies across the western world that are resolute in supporting our friends western world that are resolute in supporting ourfriends in ukraine. but we cannot do that when we have at the head of government someone who is prepared to break the law, someone prepared to lie to parliament. it's a stain on our public life and parliament. he needs to go and he needs to be replaced.
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lets all of us collectively get on with the job of supporting ukraine. i can tell you ben that over the last few weeks, political party leaders myself included have had regular updates from the mod. we've worked constructively with the mod, we do not need the prime minister to be in office for us to continue that work. and of course we have the circumstances from the second world war, when a prime minister was removed because he wasn't considered fit for purpose. this is a man... the trust that has been put in him by the uk and if he doesn't go, then conservative mps must grow a backbone and accept their responsibilities to remove this man from office. but responsibilities to remove this man from office-— from office. but the prime minister has a rood from office. but the prime minister has a good relationship _ from office. but the prime minister has a good relationship with i has a good relationship with president zelensky, he's been to kyiv, he's been helping with the supply of weapons to ukraine and there are people who are saying actually the person who would like
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it most if borisjohnson resigned right now would be vladimir putin in moscow. 2, right now would be vladimir putin in moscow. ., �* , ., right now would be vladimir putin in moscow. ., �*, ., , , , moscow. no, there's a consensus in this country — moscow. no, there's a consensus in this country that _ moscow. no, there's a consensus in this country that we _ moscow. no, there's a consensus in this country that we stand _ moscow. no, there's a consensus in this country that we stand up i moscow. no, there's a consensus in this country that we stand up to i this country that we stand up to putin and support our friends in ukraine. all of us do that. this prime minister has got his own story to come clean on in terms of the dirty money coming from russian oligarchs, the fact that the prime minister was asleep at the wheel as foreign secretary in making sure we were locking out those russian criminals that have come to london. let's stand against putin but we don't need borisjohnson in place. we don't need to be in the same circumstances that other governments are in, we need to replace a prime minister who has lied to the public. when people feel a sense of anger, they couldn't be with loved ones and hospitals, couldn't grieve or hold funerals and yet here we had a prime minister who was laughing at the public, and we all know he needs to
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go and he needs to go immediately. but the key question is, do you think he will? you're saying he should go, but will he? all think he will? you're saying he should go, but will he?- think he will? you're saying he should go, but will he? all of us in parliament — should go, but will he? all of us in parliament have _ should go, but will he? all of us in parliament have a _ should go, but will he? all of us in parliament have a responsibility i should go, but will he? all of us in parliament have a responsibility to speak up for parliament have a responsibility to speak upfor our parliament have a responsibility to speak up for our constituents. i think it's very clear that the public no longer has faith and trust in borisjohnson, that he must resign. we must do ourjob. my question to conservative mps, would you accept the moral authority to remove a prime minister, the first prime minister who has been charged in public office, with being guilty of breaking his own laws, who has repeatedly lied to the public of the uk... my message to every conservative mp, do yourjob. 0r uk... my message to every conservative mp, do yourjob. or you will be held accountable. you're keeping a man in office who does not deserve the trust, does not deserve the authority to continue in that role as prime minister of this country.
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role as prime minister of this count . 2. .. role as prime minister of this count . ., ,, i. 0ur political correspondent david wallace lockhart is at westminster. what do you think the mood among tory backbenchers is after the news about these fines? it was quite febrile a few weeks ago with letters going into the 1922 committee calling for a vote of no—confidence in the prime minister borisjohnson. has that dissipated because of the international crisis we ourselves in? 2. international crisis we ourselves in? ., ., international crisis we ourselves in? . ., �* ., international crisis we ourselves in? 2, 2, �* 2, in? hearing ian blackford calling for tory mps _ in? hearing ian blackford calling for tory mps to _ in? hearing ian blackford calling for tory mps to do _ in? hearing ian blackford calling for tory mps to do their - in? hearing ian blackford calling for tory mps to do theirjob, i in? hearing ian blackford calling for tory mps to do theirjob, as l for tory mps to do theirjob, as he's easier to come and put in those letters that can ultimately get rid of borisjohnson, i'm not convinced that's going to happen, that the blackford is going to get his way. a couple of bellwether mps we can look at and have said... douglas ross, the leader of the scottish conservatives, he was among the
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first to call for borisjohnson to go when the extent of events in downing street and other government buildings during covid regulations became a carrot. he then took out his letter to the 1922 committee, the way that backbench tory mps go about triggering this, because of the international situation in ukraine, not the right time for a leadership contest. an interesting person to look at when the fine was announced today. with that change his mind? he said the public are right to be furious but he won't put the letter back in. he says the international picture of what's going on in ukraine, the invasion, means it's not time to change party leader. sir roger gale, another conservative party mp who has been critical of the prime minister in the past and has put in those letters, saying now is not the time to be changing leader. potentially it looks like the situation in ukraine, making some mps nervous
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about the idea of changing leader, going through a long competition if borisjohnson were deposed. tensely some infighting during any leadership contest, at a time when the position in the continent is very uncertain. so it looks like perhaps, certainly at this stage, doesn't seem to be a flood of mps publicly calling for borisjohnson to go. that said there doesn't seem to go. that said there doesn't seem to be a flood of support coming eitherfor to be a flood of support coming either for the to be a flood of support coming eitherfor the prime to be a flood of support coming either for the prime minister or chancellor. either for the prime minister or chancellor-— either for the prime minister or chancellor. , , , ., chancellor. just remind us of the rules, because _ chancellor. just remind us of the rules, because to _ chancellor. just remind us of the rules, because to trigger- chancellor. just remind us of the rules, because to trigger a i chancellor. just remind us of the rules, because to trigger a vote | chancellor. just remind us of the l rules, because to trigger a vote of no confidence, there needs to be 15% of the conservative parliamentary party, 54 mps. in other words, 54 tory mps would have to send letters to the chairman of the 1922 committee. to the chairman of the 1922 committee-—
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to the chairman of the 1922 committee. 2. �* . " committee. that's right. the 1922 committee. _ committee. that's right. the 1922 committee, this _ committee. that's right. the 1922 committee, this powerful- committee. that's right. the 1922 i committee, this powerful committee of backbench conservative mps, their chairman, sir graham brady, mps, if they aren't happy with the prime minister, they write in a letter, it can be one line saying i no longer have confidence in the leader of the conservative party, the prime minister. they sent a letter in and when the letters hit 54, some mps might take them out but they can sit there for a long time. there are letters currently in. when they hit 54, that's it, 15% of the party, that triggers a leadership... sorry, that triggers a leadership... sorry, that triggers a vote of no—confidence in the leader of the party. this happened to theresa may. she survived the vote of no confidence with her party but if the prime minister loses the vote, that's it, no longer leader of the conservative party, a leadership contest follows. if they survive the vote they get a year of being
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unchallengeable as leader from the backbenches. at this point there doesn't appear to be a flood of mps letters coming in. westminster is in recess at the moment. very quiet, not many mps are about. does that mean they aren't talking to each other quite so much, getting idea of the next steps? it means some could be back in their constituencies, maybe more in touch with the people they represent, getting their reactions to the fines today and getting perspective. but at this point, silence from conservative mps in terms of support for the prime minister or criticism.— in terms of support for the prime minister or criticism. assuming he survives this. _ minister or criticism. assuming he survives this, what _ minister or criticism. assuming he survives this, what are _ minister or criticism. assuming he survives this, what are the i minister or criticism. assuming he survives this, what are the wider. survives this, what are the wider political implications, do you think, and the longer term political applications for borisjohnson of this fine politically? you applications for boris johnson of this fine politically? you wouldn't have to be _ this fine politically? you wouldn't have to be much _ this fine politically? you wouldn't
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have to be much of _ this fine politically? you wouldn't have to be much of an _ this fine politically? you wouldn't have to be much of an opposition j have to be much of an opposition strategist in the world of politics to think that this is something that may well go down quite badly with photos, that maybe used in local elections, which are just coming up. that maybe used in a future general election which, in the grand scheme of politics, isn't really that far away. this is one of these events that has no doubt damage to boris johnson, even before the extent of his personal involvement became evident. the general feeling among many people that these events were taking place at downing street at a time when we were being told to limit contracts and not socialise, to do difficult things in some scenarios such as not visiting relatives or not having full funerals for family members who are dying. i suspect if borisjohnson
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sees this out, which he may well do... he's been in a difficult position not that long ago and he seems to get through it. a lot of his backbenchers have been satisfied with his handling of the ukraine issue. he same to get into a more comfortable position. it's possible he can get through this and brazen it out again but i suspect it is something the opposition parties will be keen to remind the voters of time and time again in notjust local elections but any future general election. t’itt local elections but any future general election.— local elections but any future general election. i'm hearing that the prime minister's _ general election. i'm hearing that the prime minister's fine, i general election. i'm hearing that the prime minister's fine, fixed . the prime minister's fine, fixed penalty notice, is in relation to the impromptu birthday party that was held for him in the cabinet room backin was held for him in the cabinet room back injune of 2020. there was a cake in the colours of the union flag. we're hearing that is what the fine is in relation to, that impromptu birthday party. which ootentiall impromptu birthday party. which potentially makes _ impromptu birthday party. which
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potentially makes sense. i impromptu birthday party. which potentially makes sense. that'sl potentially makes sense. that's interesting. we don't know that rishi sunak and cam johnson's won relate to the same event. important to stress that. but we know that they were reported to be involved in that event so potentially you could say that makes sense. advisers said that boris johnson say that makes sense. advisers said that borisjohnson had been ambushed by a cake. the defence is that it was a work meeting taking place. yes, it was his birthday and a cake was brought down and there was a quick social gathering. but at that point i believe the rules were that two people could meet and there were exceptions for work meetings but the met police by the sounds of it have taken the view that it did not qualify, despite the presence of a birthday cake, as a meeting,
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therefore meeting the threshold for a fine. 2 �* 2. .. therefore meeting the threshold for afine. 2 �* . ,, ., therefore meeting the threshold for afine. 2 �* . ,, , a fine. we've talked about boris johnson a fine. we've talked about boris johnson a _ a fine. we've talked about boris johnson a lot — a fine. we've talked about boris johnson a lot but _ a fine. we've talked about boris johnson a lot but what - a fine. we've talked about boris johnson a lot but what about i a fine. we've talked about boris l johnson a lot but what about rishi sunak? he's had a rough time in recent days with the tax affairs of his wife and now he's being told he's going to receive a fine, potentially for the same event, impromptu birthday party in the cabinet room.— impromptu birthday party in the cabinet room. , , ., , ., cabinet room. rishi sunak's personal brand has taken _ cabinet room. rishi sunak's personal brand has taken a _ cabinet room. rishi sunak's personal brand has taken a bashing _ cabinet room. rishi sunak's personal brand has taken a bashing over i brand has taken a bashing over recent weeks. there were revelations that his wife holds non—dom status, which is important to say, there is nothing against the rules on that but it meant she wasn't obliged to pay uk tax on overseas income although she has place to do that. then there was the revelation that the chancellor had held a us green card, meaning he was obliged to submit tax returns in the us, while he was chancellor of the exchequer of the uk. that's another thing that potentially did him a bit of damage.
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0n potentially did him a bit of damage. on top of that, rounding off a grim period for him, to be fined for one of these breaches of the covid regulations. there would have been a time not long ago when we were talking about him being really be favourite to succeed borisjohnson if he were to fall as a result of partygate. if and it's a big if borisjohnson were to go because of getting this point you can't see a scenario where it straightforward for somebody else who got fined under the same regulations to then step into his shoes, especially when they've had a difficult period lately politically. the important thing to reflect on, this could be another factor for conservative mps, who takes over from borisjohnson? with a lot of them, they will have assumed that rishi sunak could be as chancellor quite a natural successor. that doesn't seem to be the case now. that's a factor they take into account as they ponder the
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prime minister's future. oh, take into account as they ponder the prime minister's future.— prime minister's future. a huge number of _ prime minister's future. a huge number of political _ prime minister's future. a huge | number of political implications. thank you, david. let's go to new scotland yard. joining me now is our correspondent tim muffett yard. where are we with the metropolitan police investigation? 0riginally where are we with the metropolitan police investigation? originally the mets didn't want to investigate allegations of parties and gatherings in downing street. fish gatherings in downing street. is extraordinary time for the metropolitan police. two days since cressida dick, the head of the force, stood down. initially the metropolitan police forces said they didn't want to get involved and sue gray the civil servant launched her inquiry. we understand she passed information to the met who decided they wanted to investigate after all. they are under operation heldon investigating 12 gatherings on eight states. interesting that we've heard that it states. interesting that we've heard thatitis states. interesting that we've heard that it is the 19th ofjune event in
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the cabinet room for the prime minister's birthday, that's the event for which the prime minister is to receive his fine because we know he attended three events under investigation in total. that one on the 20th of may in the downing street garden and another on the 30th of november, 2020, to mark the departure of a special adviser. in february, the metropolitan police said they would review the decision not to investigate a christmas quiz on the 15th of december 2020 following the publication of a photograph in the daily mirror. an extraordinary series of events. some would say that the police force have been playing catch up. there is a statement. they say they have issued 50 referrals for fixed statement. they say they have issued 50 referrals forfixed penalty notices to the common records office for breaches of covid regulations and following the referral the body will then issue the fines to the individuals. we don't have much the fines are for. the forces it is making every effort to process the
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investigation and is assessing significant amounts of investigative material. we've been hearing the political reaction. not much coming out of scotland yard today apart from this statement but clearly so many things for so many people to digests. tt many things for so many people to dirests. . many things for so many people to dirests. , 2, , many things for so many people to dirests. , , ., ., i. ., digests. it is open to anyone who rets a digests. it is open to anyone who gets a fixed _ digests. it is open to anyone who gets a fixed penalty _ digests. it is open to anyone who gets a fixed penalty notice i digests. it is open to anyone who gets a fixed penalty notice to i gets a fixed penalty notice to appeal against it but that potentially would mean an appearance at the magistrates�* court. yes. potentially would mean an appearance at the magistrates' court.— at the magistrates' court. yes, they have 28 days _ at the magistrates' court. yes, they have 28 days to _ at the magistrates' court. yes, they have 28 days to appeal _ at the magistrates' court. yes, they have 28 days to appeal and - at the magistrates' court. yes, they have 28 days to appeal and if i at the magistrates' court. yes, they have 28 days to appeal and if they i have 28 days to appeal and if they do so, the police will then review the fine. they will either withdraw it or take it to court. we don�*t know what the reaction is going to be for the prime minister, chancellor and prime minister�*s wife. these fixed penalty notices will result in a common or sanction, not a criminal record. some are going to point that out and ask it to be taken into consideration.
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however make my mistake, for the many people who are fined significant amounts of money, sometimes thousands of pounds during covid, the idea that this is a lesser offence won�*t be taken very seriously at all. the seriousness with which these fines were issued was made clear by the prime minister during the covid lockdown. many people are going to be fascinated i�*m sure and waiting to see what the reaction is by the prime minister, chancellor and the others who also received these cavities. —— these fixed penalty notices. received these cavities. -- these fixed penalty notices.— fixed penalty notices. that's the latest from _ fixed penalty notices. that's the latest from downing _ fixed penalty notices. that's the latest from downing street i fixed penalty notices. that's the latest from downing street on i fixed penalty notices. that's the latest from downing street on a j latest from downing street on a dramatic day in terms of those developments, that the prime minister and chancellor have been told they will be fined for breaching covid lockdown rules and also the prime minister�*s wife carriejohnson. back to the studio.
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more from downing street this afternoon. the first conservative party reaction was from michael fabricant, who defended what had happened, saying that the parties at downing street had gone ahead because people in downing street didn�*t think it made the situation any worse because they were working together every day. it was to stop spreading the disease to people that they wouldn�*t otherwise meet. the point about these events, and it�*s no excuse, they were breaking the law, so it seems, unless the prime minister chooses to contest, which he can always do, a fixed penalty notice, but i don�*t think he will. the point is, they will have thought, these are people, like the nurses i mentioned earlier,
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they�*ve been working together through the day, not bringing in new people, fresh people from outside, these are people who have been working together through the day, so it wouldn�*t be spreading the disease. it was among the people already working closely. and we do need to know of course that it is indeed a place where the disease spreads quickly, you�*re quite right, because we know for example matt hancock, rishi sunak and of course the prime minister who went into intensive care, they all caught the disease because of those cramped working conditions but it wouldn�*t have been made any worse by having a drink at the end of the day because they were the same people, working cheek byjowl with, through the day. and most of the time at that time they were trying to source the vaccines, which saved us all. it doesn�*t take away from the fact that the regulations and the law were broken, and that�*s now the police�*s judgment. i don�*t know if you were one of the conservatives who were waiting for the sue gray report before deciding whether to submit a letter calling
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for a vote of no—confidence in the prime minister. what�*s your position now? no, the prime minister still has my support especially at this difficult time in ukraine. i think genuinely, when he went to the house and said, "i don�*t think i was breaking any law," i don�*t think he did think he was breaking any law. i know there will be many exasperated people watching the programme now, following up their hands in horror but as i said just now, these are people he�*d been working with all the day through, some 16, even 18 hour days, so having a drink with them afterwards he will have thought, that�*s not spreading the disease. i think he has to come to the house on tuesday, i think he needs to make a statement to the house on tuesday. i mean, where we go from here is interesting.
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we have two possibilities which are out of the prime minister�*s hands. one is that keir starmer decides to put down a motion of no confidence in the government and then it will be interesting to see, you know, how mps vote on that. the other possibility is that some people who i suspect were just waiting to do it to see if he was prosecuted, will put their names in to graham brady, the chairman of the 1922 committee, to have a vote of no—confidence in the leader, this is actually within the conservative party itself, whether there would be enough names, i don�*t know. i certainly will not be putting my name in. time for the weather. good afternoon. how is it looking for the coming day?— coming day? hello, not too bad. today has _ coming day? hello, not too bad. today has been _
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coming day? hello, not too bad. today has been pretty _ coming day? hello, not too bad. today has been pretty soggy i coming day? hello, not too bad. i today has been pretty soggy across central and northern parts of the country but when the rain clears it is looking pretty good for the rest of the week and even into the easter weekend with high—pressure dominating. should be mostly settled and dry. you will notice it�*s going to feel pretty warm, temperatures hitting the low 20s in some spots, especially across the south. you can see the orange and yellow colours. this is the weather we�*ve had in central and northern areas, becoming confined to northern scotland overnight. further south, variable cloud, the shower, clear spells but nowhere is going to be particular cold. pretty mild for england and wales by the end of the night. wednesday, rain clearing from the north of scotland, confined to the northern isles. elsewhere a drier day, betterfor england, southern scotland. a few showers breaking out and some of them could be heavy. a warm datagram, full warm further north because of sunny spells. —— a warm day to come. look at the
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temperatures come into the low 20s in places across the south.
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this is bbc news. the headlines. the prime minister and the chancellor will both be fined by the police for attending parties during lockdown. the prime minister�*s wife, carriejohnson, will also be given a fixed penalty notice. the prime minister has been challenged on the issue a number of times in the commons — in december he insisted no rules were broken. the labour leader says both borisjohnson and rishi sunak have broken the law and calls on them both to resign. familes of people who died with covid have been reacting with anger to today�*s news. multiple people have been shot
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at a subway station in new york. pictures have emerged of passengers covered in blood lying on the station floor. we are waiting for a news conference to begin. western countries call for an urgent investigation, after ukraine acusses russia of a chemical attack in mariupol. we are waiting for a news conference in new york city to begin and we are told about a dozen people were injured in a shooting inside a subway station in new york city. there were also unexplained devices found in the subway station and reports say the man who conducted the shootings within an orange safety vest and a gas mask and he has escaped from the scene and obviously the police are searching for him at the moment. what we are getting in terms of details are very limited at the moment but we are expecting a response and we are told
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the presidentjoe biden and the mayor of new york, who has been in office just for three months, mayor of new york, who has been in officejust for three months, they are expected to give some kind of reaction to this, along with the new york city fire department who made the initial call. according to reuters multiple people were shot and at least 13 were injured at the subway station in brooklyn. the latest in a series of violent incidents on the transit system and it occurred during the morning rush hour at 36th st in the sunset park in brooklyn�*s neighbourhood, which is the borough to the south of manhattan. the subway lines run across the river into manhattan. according to a broadcast engineer in the area, the reaction of the passengers was terrifying because they were trying to get into her car
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and away from the back of the train, people were pounding and looking behind them, running and trying to get onto the train to escape the shooting, she said. she said there were a lot of loud pops and smoke in another car. new york police department tell people to stay away from the area which is known for its thriving chinatown and views of the statue of liberty. it is a sprawling warehouse district. they are lining up warehouse district. they are lining up cameras for a live broadcast. they are just checking the sand which means they will be live shortly and we are going to stay with this because this is important —— they are just checking the sound. the new york police department warning people to stay away and there have been a series of gun incidents and one of the things the mayor of new york was pushing for when he was running for office was
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that he had experience as a serving police officer and he will take a tough line on violence. we are a long way from the reputation of the city used to have in the 1970s, is the kind of murder city, the famous front page of time magazine, there is something rotten in the big apple, it said. the mayor then had to defend his city, and there was a difficult period in the 1990s which rudy giuliani, who was elected as a tough mayor on law and order, and also michael bloomberg follows that to an extent, that line, but new york is regarded as a much safer city for people to work and live in, but recent incidents on the subway system which have started to undermine people�*s confidence. we are waiting for the press conference to begin. no sign yet of the elected
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officials and the other city officials and the other city officials coming to the microphones but when they do we will be back in new york. but now to the developing situation with the fines for the prime minister and the chancellor and the prime minister�*s y. i spoke to adam from doughty street, a legal firm. i haven�*t looked at the statistics but most fines were given out in the second knockdown in the late 2020, early 2021, when there was a strong steer from the government that they thought that the compliance was going to be less because people were getting sick of being stuck indoors and that sort of thing, so there was and that sort of thing, so there was
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a strong steer for the police to give people fixed penalty notices and there were a lot, and in fact more given out during that period than any other time, tens of thousands.— than any other time, tens of thousands. ., ,., ., , thousands. final point on this in terms of the _ thousands. final point on this in terms of the structure _ thousands. final point on this in terms of the structure of i thousands. final point on this in terms of the structure of the i thousands. final point on this in i terms of the structure of the fines, quite a wide range. fixed penalty notices sound quite modest but we can talk up to £10,000? tt notices sound quite modest but we can talk up to £10,000?— can talk up to £10,000? if you orranise can talk up to £10,000? if you organise a _ can talk up to £10,000? if you organise a gathering _ can talk up to £10,000? if you organise a gathering for i can talk up to £10,000? if you organise a gathering for over. can talk up to £10,000? if you. organise a gathering for over 30 people in a public place or a private dwelling, you could be on the hook for over £10,000 and if you attend one of those gatherings it could be 850, but the more likely situation here is that it will be between 60 and 200 but the interesting thing is that once you start getting multiple fixed penalty notices, for example, the police and the prime minister, sorry, he attended several gatherings, parody,
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and the final one could be fined for —— apparently, the final one could see him fine for about £450, it tends to increase. he could be on the hook for £10,000. that tends to increase. he could be on the hookfor £10,000.— tends to increase. he could be on the hook for £10,000. that is very interesting- _ a very interesting explanation, i�*m very grateful. that�*s something we don�*t know. we know that the fined has been fined but i�*m not aware that any undertaken has been given to tell us how much. no, but my best guess, given that it�*s rishi sunak and carriejohnson who have apparently been given fixed penalty notices, the only gathering they attended was the prime minister�*s birthday party, so this is most likely to be about that gathering because they were given a fixed penalty notice in the group
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and if that�*s the case it is likely to be a £200 fixed penalty notice. the liberal democrat leader ed davey earlier gave me his reaction. this is a government _ earlier gave me his reaction. this is a government in _ earlier gave me his reaction. tt s is a government in crisis and neglecting a country in crisis and unable to lead, they are in crisis because it is a dishonest government and is in crisis because the prime minister and the chancellor are now clearly seem to have broken the law and we have a country and frankly a world that has been neglected, especially the cost of living crisis affecting millions of people. this government is neglecting them and thatis government is neglecting them and that is why the liberal democrats are clear that the prime minister at the chancellor should resign immediately and frankly, if they won�*t resign, the speaker of the house of commons should recall parliament so mps can have a vote of no confidence in this government. vote the government would win because they have a massive parliamentary majority. taste because they have a massive parliamentary majority. parliamentary ma'ority. we will see if conservative i parliamentary majority. we will see if conservative mps _ parliamentary majority. we will see if conservative mps really - parliamentary majority. we will see if conservative mps really believe i if conservative mps really believe that having a prime minister who breaks the law, having a chancellor who breaks the law, is acceptable.
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surely even conservative mps now can recognise that the prime minister and the chancellor must go. they imposed these laws on the rest of us and millions of people made sacrifices to keep to those laws but the chancellor and the prime minister have broken them. you mentioned the crisis and the emergency for the cost of living. i�*m absolutely clear now, they must go immediately.
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this is a very serious moment for our country and we cannot have leaders who are dishonest and who break the law and we have got a crisis and you mention to the crisis in ukraine, of course, we have a cost of living emergency for millions of families and pensioners and frankly the prime minister and the chance that failed those millions of people. i�*m absolutely clear now they must go and they must go immediately, so we can get fresh leadership and if the conservatives won�*t do that, i feel they are directly associated with this wrongdoing. you are an internationalist and so it is your party, but in the end there are times when domestic political interest has got to be subservient to the international needs and right now the uk with the prime minister it has at the moment is playing a prominent role in the international effort to push back against russia so this is a distraction, isn�*t it? yes, these events happened and they have been fined and there is an argument they can tell us more about this but is this really the time for it? the prime minister�*s reputation internationally is not the greatest and i have some faith in ben wallace, the secretary of state for defence, he has been leading the day—to—day effort to support the ukrainian army and he has had cross—party support for that, so getting rid
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of the prime minister won�*t stop that huge support that our country has rightly given to the people of ukraine and to the ukrainian army, and so i actually think getting rid of borisjohnson and now rishi sunak would be better for our country, both internationally and to help the millions of families and pensioners who are struggling in huge difficulty with the cost of living emergency. we�*re going to get some reaction of what bereaved families are saying in response to this but we have to deal with one other quite important question here, an intriguing question, what if the chancellor, given he has had a dreadful few weeks, was to resign over this and say, "actually, i think on principle "i have been fined by the police and i don�*t think my "position is tenable." what would be the consequences for the prime minister for that? if rishi sunak does the right thing, the decent thing,
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and hands in his resignation, that will pile further pressure on the prime minister, rightly. we don�*t yet know the details behind this lawbreaking but we saw the evidence and we have known the evidence over months now and it looks like the prime minister broke the law on many occasions. i think the pressure, if rishi sunak does the decent thing and resigns, will become completely overwhelming. frankly, the prime minister should go now but in those circumstances he will have to go, and conservatives will have to do their constitutional duty and stop betraying people and the country by not doing the right thing. you have talked about the effects of this potentially on the conservative party.
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your party was in government with the conservative party, have they changed or do you now rather regret that, the fact you were in coalition with the conservatives? we fought them every day during that government and were very successful, for example in quadrupling renewable power when people like borisjohnson were trying to stop it, so we achieved huge amounts, but i learnt then that you couldn�*t trust many of the senior conservatives but it is actually different and it is now far worse. they have drifted to the right, especially borisjohnson, and i have been talking to lifelong conservatives we did that in the amersham by—election when we defeated the conservatives and we also have done that in the north shopshire by—election, lifelong conservatives are telling us that they don�*t think the prime minister is decent
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and they don�*t the fact that he thinks it is one rule for him and another for the rest of us and i don�*t think he cares. they say borisjohnson is not funny any longer and i think many conservatives would like to see the back of him. sir ed davey, the leader of the liberal democrats, there. i have also been speaking tojill rutter at changing europe. she gave me her reaction. the prime minister repeatedly assured parliament that there were no parties and now effectively the police are saying, "well, prime minister, you were present at a party, "that�*s why you�*ve got a fixed penalty notice." so if the prime minister accepts the fine and doesn�*t contest it then he�*s effectively admitting that he was indeed at a party. we got into all sorts of semantics over whether it was a party or not. thankfully, we no longer have to go
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into that because the police have definitively said that these were parties, contrary to the terms of the legislation, the rules the government had set. 0ne columnist camilla cavendish, herself a former downing street insider, said that she found it extraordinary, the government head of ethics, someone who had been senior in the covid task force and the prime minister, as we now know is the case, and the chancellor of exchequer, being found guilty of breaching rules that they were responsible for creating. surely, as far as you can recall, it is something without precedent? yes, i think that�*s pretty safe to say. it�*s an area where you�*ve got a lot of very senior people in both the government, senior ministers and very senior officials in the cabinet office, facing fines is unprecedented. this story continues like a serial whodunnit where we find out more each week about who has been fined
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by the met. in that sense it�*s quite damaging for the government, the drip, drip of this. the met are not even saying if this is the end of the process. i don�*t think it�*s the end because we assume there are more people in the frame, there maybe some who decide to contest these fines. i think it would have been better if the met had stayed their hand and at the end of the day had issued a full list of everybody who had been fined, whose names they would disclose, so we knew that that was the end of the met police investigation and then we could move onto the next stage, the publication of the full sue gray report which the prime minister was forced to concede would be published at the end of the met investigation. we�*re waiting to see when we get the final sue gray report. that was jill rutter
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talking to me earlier. we can now hear from a writer at the observer newspaper. this we can now hear from a writer at the observer newspaper.— observer newspaper. this is important — observer newspaper. this is important for _ observer newspaper. this is important for a _ observer newspaper. this is important for a couple i observer newspaper. this is important for a couple of i observer newspaper. this is i important for a couple of reasons, it is completely unprecedented come up it is completely unprecedented come up with a prime minister and a chancellor who has been found to have broken the law during a national crisis, and a natural to be macro national crisis in which many people made huge sacrifices, not being with loved ones when they died in order to stick by the law and to do their bit during the pandemic and now we find the chance that the prime minister haven�*t, so that is the first issue. unprecedented, and i think it means the future of the prime minister should be unsustainable in office. the second issueis unsustainable in office. the second issue is the weight the prime minister reacted to these revelations coming out, he has misled parliament not once, or twice but three times when he claimed no laws were broken and no rules were broken in downing street and that there is knowledge there were not any parties but now we find out that the police have found that he was at at least one of these parties.
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i think this is a very serious stories for both of those reasons. in terms of the mechanics of this, as the bbc correspond was outlining earlier, there�*s only one mechanism here, assuming the prime minister and chancellor don�*t decide to resign and that�*s that conservative mps submit enough letters to trigger a vote of no confidence. we�*re still in ignorance about how many people ever put in letters and whether any of those letters were withdrawn. douglas ross, the leader of the scottish conservatives, said he�*d withdrawn his because of the war in the ukraine but elsewhere it�*s unclear. that�*s right, we live in a parliamentary democracy, between elections the prime minister serves at the pleasure of mps in the conservative party. it�*s always been very hard because of the way the conservative party system works,
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difficult to know how many letters have been submitted because they are submitted in confidence. i think tory mps should be carefully considering borisjohnson�*s future but we are unlikely to see the vote of no confidence in coming weeks and that�*s because of stories such as ukraine and the war in ukraine but i don�*t think... i don�*t think that should be a reason for conservative mps not to act. we live in a constitutional system where, bizarrely, the prime minister is in charge of enforcing the ministerial code, the code that sets out the behavioural standards expected of ministers and we�*ve already seen for example borisjohnson has chosen to ignore it when there has been a finding made of bullying, for example, against the home secretary priti patel. we live in a system where it�*s up to the prime minister actually, to enforce the code, to decide what action he should
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take, what rishi sunak should take. i think it�*s extremely unlikely we are going to see borisjohnson saying, "well, i�*ve broken the law, "it�*s not appropriate for me to be in place any more." it shows one of the issues with the system, it�*s up to the government and prime minister to keep to the ministerial code and there have been lots of circumstances where borisjohnson just hasn�*t shown a willingness to do that. thanks forjoining us. let me ask you what you have made of what happened in downing street and the phrase will announce today? t teet phrase will announce today? i feel ve anr phrase will announce today? i feel very angry and _ phrase will announce today? t t22t very angry and disappointed, and he has denied these allegations for so long, but he is meant to be leading the country and he stood on his front door and clapped every wednesday for nhs workers. he has
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made a mockery of everything we have done over the last couple of years. i can�*t believe how he has acted and the fact he has denied everything and he still hasn�*t come forward and said i have made a mistake. itoiith said i have made a mistake. with that made any — said i have made a mistake. with that made any difference to you if he did? —— would that. trio. that made any difference to you if he did? -- would that.— that made any difference to you if he did? -- would that. no, he has missed the — he did? -- would that. no, he has missed the boat. _ he did? -- would that. no, he has missed the boat. i _ he did? -- would that. no, he has missed the boat. i truly _ he did? -- would that. no, he has missed the boat. i truly believe i he did? -- would that. no, he has missed the boat. i truly believe if| missed the boat. i truly believe if he had come out in the first base and said, i hold my hands up, people would have been more forgiving —— in the first place. the fact he denied these allegations and the fact he has gone and said, i haven�*t done anything wrong, yet nhs workers were dying on the front line, he was sitting eating cheese and drinking wine with his friends, so i can�*t even fathom how somebody leading our country can set that example. can t country can set that example. can i out ou a country can set that example. can i put you a couple — country can set that example. can i put you a couple of— country can set that example. can i put you a couple of things - country can set that example. can i put you a couple of things that a
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conservative mp michael fabricant said to me, he said to me, first of all, as far as he understands, he thinks these people thought, well, the rules are designed to stop people getting infected it so you don�*t mix with other people but these are the people they work with every day so it is fine for us to have social gatherings and stuff because they are not endangering other people by doing it. t because they are not endangering other people by doing it.- other people by doing it. i worked in a&e alongside _ other people by doing it. i worked in a&e alongside my _ other people by doing it. i worked in a&e alongside my colleagues i other people by doing it. i worked| in a&e alongside my colleagues as other people by doing it. i worked i in a&e alongside my colleagues as we watched people dying and as we give our phones to people to face time at home and possibly the last contact they would have ever made with their loved ones, and on my break i have to use it alone and eat my sandwich. i wasn�*t allowed to go out and socialise with them and i couldn�*t go to their homes. i didn�*t hug my fatherfor go to their homes. i didn�*t hug my father for six go to their homes. i didn�*t hug my fatherfor six and yet go to their homes. i didn�*t hug my father for six and yet we live in the same property, i would wash and
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sharrah before i would hug my own daughter and my son. sharrah before i would hug my own daughterand my son. —— sharrah before i would hug my own daughter and my son. —— wash and shower. i was not allowed to socialise with anybody. it wasn�*t 0k. they made the laws and they chose to break them. the ok. they made the laws and they chose to break them.— ok. they made the laws and they chose to break them. the other thing he said was — chose to break them. the other thing he said was that _ chose to break them. the other thing he said was that it _ chose to break them. the other thing he said was that it is _ chose to break them. the other thing he said was that it is not _ chose to break them. the other thing he said was that it is not so _ he said was that it is not so different, he put it this way, from nurses or teachers at the end of a hard day, they might go to the staff room and sit down and have a glass of wine or a cup of coffee with their colleagues because they have had a stressful day. i take it from what you have said, that did not happen in your hospital? absolutely not. we happen in your hospital? absolutely not- we were _ happen in your hospital? absolutely not. we were very _ happen in your hospital? absolutely not. we were very strict, _ happen in your hospital? absolutely not. we were very strict, we i happen in your hospital? absolutely not. we were very strict, we had i not. we were very strict, we had sofas in our staff room and it was one person per sofa and the tables were socially distanced at two metres apart and the canteen was done the same. we were not even allowed to car share at one point,
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because of the risk of infection, theissue because of the risk of infection, the issue being at we are so short of nurses, if you had been in close contact, you had to isolate so if we had cow shed that would take a couple of nurses off shift. —— if we had done a car share that would have taken a couple of nurses off shift. and for the record, no nurses drink wine in the staff room. that and for the record, no nurses drink wine in the staff room.— wine in the staff room. that is reassuring _ wine in the staff room. that is reassuring to _ wine in the staff room. that is reassuring to say. _ wine in the staff room. that is reassuring to say. i _ wine in the staff room. that is reassuring to say. i was i wine in the staff room. that is reassuring to say. i was at i wine in the staff room. that is reassuring to say. i was at a i reassuring to say. i was at a hospital this morning and they were terrific and it is quietly reassuring to know no one was knocking one back before they saw me, even if i have given a few people to drink over the years! —— driven. do you worry about what people might think in the future, the members of the public, because a lot of people made sacrifices and they might think, if it doesn�*t matter that much and it doesn�*t make any difference, because the people in charge aren�*t doing it, i�*m not
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going to buy the next time if they tell me to behave in a particular way? —— i�*m not going to bother the next time. way? -- i'm not going to bother the next time. , , . way? -- i'm not going to bother the next time. the public were watching the covid briefings _ next time. the public were watching the covid briefings and _ next time. the public were watching the covid briefings and they - next time. the public were watching the covid briefings and they were i the covid briefings and they were listening to what downing street were saying, but going forward, how can you hold the lead at the country with respect if he says something, why are you going to follow his instructions when the only thing you are thinking, well, he�*s not doing it, why should i? he has set a precedent going forward and i don�*t think he is fit to lead the country one bit. i�*m ashamed that the prime minister was in a party while i was away from my family. it makes me feel sick to my stomach that somebody leading the country could behave in that way. 2, somebody leading the country could behave in that way.— behave in that way. a nurse in cardiff there, _ behave in that way. a nurse in cardiff there, from _ behave in that way. a nurse in cardiff there, from merthyr i behave in that way. a nurse in i cardiff there, from merthyr tydfil, part of nurses united, thanks for joining us. injust a part of nurses united, thanks for joining us. in just a few part of nurses united, thanks for joining us. injust a few minutes part of nurses united, thanks for joining us. in just a few minutes we
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will bejoining ben brown. the news conference in new york is now scheduled for when the networks join them at midday in new york, sorry, actually, yes, it will be midday in new york injust actually, yes, it will be midday in new york in just five minutes, five o�*clock here. we will hear about the latest on those attacks in the subway station. now we have the latest weather forecast. it has been a fine day across the south—east part of the country with some sunshine and quite warm as well with temperatures hitting 20 bit further north rather soggy with a weather front that has been slowly spilling its way northwards but once that clears away the rest of the week is looking settled and it will feel much warmer. the warm air will be pretty much across the country from wednesday onwards and it will stick around into the easter weekend as well. this is the weather front that
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has brought the wet weather to central and northern areas and that will be confined to the north of scotland and the northern isles. some mist and fog patches developing and it will be mild for england and wales, and wednesday morning, rather grey with outbreaks of rain in the north—west of scotland and the northern isles, where it remains cloudy, but elsewhere across scotland and the rest of the uk, much brighter day, may be a few showers in england and wales, some of them could be heavy and thundery. close to 20 in the south, even as far as central scotland, the high teens, and through wednesday night, mist and low cloud becomes quite extensive, especially around the irish sea coast and that was stop temperatures from falling much below six. thursday could be rather grey and cloudy to start with, especially across northern and western half of the country and the best of the sunshine again in the east, may be a few holes in the cloud further
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south. may bejust few holes in the cloud further south. may be just the outside chance of a shower for northern ireland but most places dry and again very warm with temperatures ranging from 14—20. into the easter weekend it looks like high pressure will bring a lot of dry and settled weather but still a question over how quickly the high pressure breaks down and allows low pressure to sweep in and which could turn things a bit more unsettled. the pitcher for good friday high pressure in control, some sunny spells, may be a slim chance of an isolated shower across more western areas where the cloud will be thickest but where we have the sunshine we could have 19, 20, may 21. elsewhere closer to the mid—teens especially around the coast. the easter weekend will be warm, often dry and bright, and a chance of rain as we move through easter sunday into monday, the increasing chance of showers pushing increasing chance of showers pushing in from the west. you have to stay
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tuned to the forecast for the latest details. see you later.
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this is bbc news i�*m ben brown live at downing street. the headlines. the prime minister and the chancellor will both be fined by the police — for attending parties during lockdown. the pm�*s wife, carriejohnson, will also be given a fixed penalty notice. the prime minister has been challenged on the issue a number of times — in december he insisted no rules were broken at downing street. all the guidelines were observed and continued to be observed and i can also tell you that we are getting on with the job as we have been throughout. the labour leader says both borisjohnson and rishi sunak have broken the law — and calls on them both to resign
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familes of people who died with covid having been reacting

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